Where Have All the Welders Gone, As Manufacturing and Repair Boom?

[Cliff]

When that ship left the dock mommy and
daddy sitting in their SUVs were left far behind, and the only thing that
mattered was whether you could do your job, 7 days a week for way more hours
than any of your buddies working at McDonalds could ever dream of. Now it
seems clear to me that kids that left the dock on that ship were NOT the
cream of the crop in high school, they were all volunteers, many of them
with little hope for advancement unless they could learn something in the
navy.

A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

[Cliff]

Good thoughts, George. But you missed one other possible explanation for the phenomena
observed: People really, truly are just plain stupid.

Someone just claimed that there seem to be more wingers
& fundies in the US these days.

Yes, because wingers & fundies are pretty much the epitome of the stupid
and ignorant.
-gc

Of course..the acme are Libs.
A tragic head injury, overdose of pyschotropics, 3 Chromosome 21s...a
family tree that runs in a straight line..and you too can be a Liberal.

Found those "WMDs" yet?

[F. George McDuffee]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 08:15:53 -0400, Cliff <***@aol.com>
wrote:
<snip>

Post by Cliff
A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

<snip>
While it is not sufficient reason to bring it back, the US
military during the draft was the worlds largest and most
effective vocational training school, covering almost all areas
of human activity.

Even areas like personal hygiene, such as how you really get the
clap, that were skimmed over (or omitted) in high school were
covered in detail.

It is disingenuous to fault the military because a number of
their "graduates" don't make it in civilian life. Anyone from a
poverty area, inner city or rural, stands a much better chance
after their military experience, if only because they were able
to stay drug free for three years. The problem is that many of
the "graduates" go back to the neighborhoods where they came from
and fall back into that lifestyle. If you or I lived in those
areas, we would be in danger of trying to make a living running a
squeegee franchise on a corner, dealing recreational vegetable
substances, dumpster diving, or can/bottle scavenging. The
choice for these people is not between Princeton and State U.,
it is between the US military and nothing.

What the military does is show them there is an alternative -- it
can't make the choice for them.

Unka George (George McDuffee)
=============================
When you give power to an executive
you do not know who will be filling
that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author.
"Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter,"
in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr.
in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

[Steve B]

"F. George McDuffee" <***@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote

<many good points re: military opportunities for inner city young people
snipped>

George, you will have better results talking calculus with a pig than
discussing politics with Cliff.

HTH

Steve

[F. George McDuffee]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:28:41 -0700, "Steve B"

Post by Steve B
<many good points re: military opportunities for inner city young people
snipped>
George, you will have better results talking calculus with a pig than
discussing politics with Cliff.
HTH
Steve

===============
Was not so much intended for Cliff but rather the people who read
Cliff.


Unka George (George McDuffee)
=============================
When you give power to an executive
you do not know who will be filling
that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author.
"Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter,"
in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr.
in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

[Cliff]

Post by Steve B
George, you will have better results talking calculus with a pig than
discussing politics with Cliff.

Want to try to teach BB the basics?

[Cliff]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:02:41 -0500, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
<snip>

Post by Cliff
A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

<snip>
While it is not sufficient reason to bring it back, the US
military during the draft was the worlds largest and most
effective vocational training school, covering almost all areas
of human activity.
Even areas like personal hygiene, such as how you really get the
clap, that were skimmed over (or omitted) in high school were
covered in detail.
It is disingenuous to fault the military because a number of
their "graduates" don't make it in civilian life.

They pretty much started with wingers & fundies.

Post by F. George McDuffee
Anyone from a
poverty area, inner city or rural, stands a much better chance
after their military experience, if only because they were able
to stay drug free for three years. The problem is that many of
the "graduates" go back to the neighborhoods where they came from
and fall back into that lifestyle.

Never release the prisoners back into their old comfy environment.
Get them jobs in different parts of the nation.

Post by F. George McDuffee
If you or I lived in those
areas, we would be in danger of trying to make a living running a
squeegee franchise on a corner, dealing recreational vegetable
substances, dumpster diving, or can/bottle scavenging. The
choice for these people is not between Princeton and State U.,
it is between the US military and nothing.
What the military does is show them there is an alternative -- it
can't make the choice for them.

Education would be better & cheaper. But fewer fundies & wingers
in the end.

[F. George McDuffee]

Post by Cliff
Education would be better & cheaper. But fewer fundies & wingers
in the end.

============
Like I said, for most of the people the choice is *NOT* between 4
years at Yale and 3 years in the Navy, it is between 3 years in
the Navy and *NOTHING*.

FWIW -- Contrary to popular opinion and the teacher's unions,
many people get an "education" (or at least get smart) at places
other than "certified" schools and from "licensed" teachers.



Unka George (George McDuffee)
=============================
When you give power to an executive
you do not know who will be filling
that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author.
"Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter,"
in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr.
in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

[Cliff]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:28:19 -0500, F. George McDuffee

Post by F. George McDuffee
FWIW -- Contrary to popular opinion and the teacher's unions,
many people get an "education" (or at least get smart) at places
other than "certified" schools and from "licensed" teachers.

Tell Gunner & some wingers ...

[john]

Post by F. George McDuffee

Post by Cliff
Education would be better & cheaper. But fewer fundies & wingers
in the end.

============
Like I said, for most of the people the choice is *NOT* between 4
years at Yale and 3 years in the Navy, it is between 3 years in
the Navy and *NOTHING*.
FWIW -- Contrary to popular opinion and the teacher's unions,
many people get an "education" (or at least get smart) at places
other than "certified" schools and from "licensed" teachers.

In many cases the judges order was the military or Jail. The military
turned around a lot of jd's. (juvenile delinquents)


John


John

[PrecisionMachinisT]

Post by john
In many cases the judges order was the military or Jail. The military
turned around a lot of jd's. (juvenile delinquents)

Same could be argued other way around....

( Proud to have been one, in fact )

--

SVL

[PrecisionMachinisT]

Post by F. George McDuffee
FWIW -- Contrary to popular opinion and the teacher's unions,
many people get an "education" (or at least get smart) at places
other than "certified" schools and from "licensed" teachers.

Our youngest son has been working in our shop for nearly 2 years now.

Recently, his car was broken into and his stereo stolen.

Time for an alarm, I spose....and he got one--installing it soon....but when
I spoke of the stereo manufacturer's perhaps providing a simple loop inside
the unit...so that if it gets unplugged from the harness, then the car horn
would honk...

Bingo.....wow.....cool idea, you should apply for a patent.......

Oh well, such is the way of things <g>

--

SVL

[D Murphy]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:17:41 GMT, "Gary H. Lucas"

When that ship left the dock mommy and
daddy sitting in their SUVs were left far behind, and the only thing
that mattered was whether you could do your job, 7 days a week for way
more hours than any of your buddies working at McDonalds could ever
dream of. Now it seems clear to me that kids that left the dock on
that ship were NOT the cream of the crop in high school, they were all
volunteers, many of them with little hope for advancement unless they
could learn something in the navy.

A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

I would hire them. The best three service I've ever worked with are all
vets. None worked on CNC lathes in the military but they learned something
else that is very hard to teach.

[Gary H. Lucas]

Post by D Murphy

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:17:41 GMT, "Gary H. Lucas"

When that ship left the dock mommy and
daddy sitting in their SUVs were left far behind, and the only thing
that mattered was whether you could do your job, 7 days a week for way
more hours than any of your buddies working at McDonalds could ever
dream of. Now it seems clear to me that kids that left the dock on
that ship were NOT the cream of the crop in high school, they were all
volunteers, many of them with little hope for advancement unless they
could learn something in the navy.

A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

I would hire them. The best three service I've ever worked with are all
vets. None worked on CNC lathes in the military but they learned something
else that is very hard to teach.
--
Dan
Scopulus est usquequaque nefas

Dan,
I used to feel the same way. However my experience with vets I have hired
and worked with has not been good. I sent one his last paycheck in jail.
One had learned so little in 4 years I was amazed he actually was in the
navy. Recently a company we did work for was hiring all vets. Another
engineer I worked with described them best as "cockroaches" You turn on the
lights and they all disappear! They all seemed to have one thing in common,
they followed orders, but you had to give them orders about every damn thing
you wanted done. Kind of like working with a CNC. Oh, I get it now.

Gary H. Lucas

[F. George McDuffee]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:24:51 GMT, "Gary H. Lucas"

Post by Gary H. Lucas

Post by D Murphy

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:17:41 GMT, "Gary H. Lucas"

When that ship left the dock mommy and
daddy sitting in their SUVs were left far behind, and the only thing
that mattered was whether you could do your job, 7 days a week for way
more hours than any of your buddies working at McDonalds could ever
dream of. Now it seems clear to me that kids that left the dock on
that ship were NOT the cream of the crop in high school, they were all
volunteers, many of them with little hope for advancement unless they
could learn something in the navy.

A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

I would hire them. The best three service I've ever worked with are all
vets. None worked on CNC lathes in the military but they learned something
else that is very hard to teach.
--
Dan
Scopulus est usquequaque nefas

Dan,
I used to feel the same way. However my experience with vets I have hired
and worked with has not been good. I sent one his last paycheck in jail.
One had learned so little in 4 years I was amazed he actually was in the
navy. Recently a company we did work for was hiring all vets. Another
engineer I worked with described them best as "cockroaches" You turn on the
lights and they all disappear! They all seemed to have one thing in common,
they followed orders, but you had to give them orders about every damn thing
you wanted done. Kind of like working with a CNC. Oh, I get it now.
Gary H. Lucas

=================
As I mentioned earlier this is very characteristic behavior of
individuals taught in an educational system and work environment
that stresses not making mistakes over everything else.
Mistake/Error phobic educational systems were characteristic of
France, Japan, PRC, and the USSR. All of these are revising
their curriculums to a more "learn from your mistakes"
environment.

An ISO 9000 work environment stressing doing what you are told
and only what you are told makes perfect sense in some
environments, such as low-level carrier operations, although as
soon as something occurs that is not covered by the manual, the
ship and crew are in big trouble, because they do what the manual
says - i.e. nothing.

What you may need to do is create your own ISO-9000 type manual
covering every (or just the most common) situations, and hire an
ex Navy Chief as a crew boss.

Unka George (George McDuffee)
=============================
When you give power to an executive
you do not know who will be filling
that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author.
"Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter,"
in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr.
in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

[d***@krl.org]

Only those that were totally unemployable before they went in the
military will be unemployable after they get out. But most that were
unemployable before they went in, will be employable after they get
out. It may not have anything to do with the military, it may just be
that they have had four more years to grow up.

Now if you are hiring vets, I think there may be a difference between
those that were in the service but got out before they could draw
military retirement and those that stayed in until they could draw
retirement. Not that there are not some great retired military, but I
think the smartest ones say that made First Class PO in four years
generally did not stay in for 20.

The military that has very detailed instructions, employed
reader/worker proceedures, and worked in two man rule situations seem
to be the ones that would do really stupid things at times. And I don't
mean where the manual did not cover the situation. I mean where they
did not follow reader/worker and did not follow the manual.


Dan

Post by F. George McDuffee

Post by Gary H. Lucas

Post by Cliff
A great many will be totally unemployable once out of the military.
If older, perhaps homeless.

Cliff

Post by F. George McDuffee

Post by Gary H. Lucas
Dan,
I used to feel the same way. However my experience with vets I have hired
and worked with has not been good. I sent one his last paycheck in jail.
One had learned so little in 4 years I was amazed he actually was in the
navy. Recently a company we did work for was hiring all vets. Another
engineer I worked with described them best as "cockroaches" You turn on the
lights and they all disappear! They all seemed to have one thing in common,
they followed orders, but you had to give them orders about every damn thing
you wanted done. Kind of like working with a CNC. Oh, I get it now.
Gary H. Lucas

=================
As I mentioned earlier this is very characteristic behavior of
individuals taught in an educational system and work environment
that stresses not making mistakes over everything else.
Mistake/Error phobic educational systems were characteristic of
France, Japan, PRC, and the USSR. All of these are revising
their curriculums to a more "learn from your mistakes"
environment.
An ISO 9000 work environment stressing doing what you are told
and only what you are told makes perfect sense in some
environments, such as low-level carrier operations, although as
soon as something occurs that is not covered by the manual, the
ship and crew are in big trouble, because they do what the manual
says - i.e. nothing.
What you may need to do is create your own ISO-9000 type manual
covering every (or just the most common) situations, and hire an
ex Navy Chief as a crew boss.
Unka George (George McDuffee)
=============================
When you give power to an executive
you do not know who will be filling
that position when the time of crisis comes.
Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author.
"Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter,"
in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr.
in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

[Cliff]

Go ahead, make some mistakes. The only alternative is to do nothing

When you have wingers with red buttons the later is the best
choice.