Discussion:
OT - Katrina and Insurance Claims
(too old to reply)
Too_Many_Tools
2005-09-12 18:18:42 UTC
Permalink
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,

the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.


TMT


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/11/AR200...



Claims Mark Recovery's Beginning
But Deciding How Much Damage Is Attributable to Floods May Get Tricky


By Justin Gillis and Amy Joyce
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, September 12, 2005


HATTIESBURG, Miss. -- As the immediate humanitarian crisis eases in the

Gulf Coast states, people are turning their attention to recovery, and
for the vast majority, the key to recovery is an insurance claim.


Insurance adjusters are flooding the region to cope with claims
expected to number in the millions. Homeowners across a huge swath of
the country now confront the most important financial moment of their
lives -- getting an insurer to keep its promise to make them whole
after a disaster. Some are likely to be caught up in a contentious
debate over how much of the hurricane's damage should be attributed to
flooding.


As an insurance man crawled around a roof the other day in the broiling

Mississippi sun, Eddie A. Holloway stood below in the kitchen, pointing

to strips of paint and plaster hanging from a giant hole in the ceiling

of a rental house he owns in Hattiesburg.


The house, in a poor section of town, was rendered uninhabitable by the

storm, and the tenants fled. "They're gone," he said, and so is his
income on the property, perhaps for weeks or months.


State Farm adjuster Curtis Rasmussen, fresh in town from Utah to handle

claims, crawled down a trembling stepladder toting a digital camera to
show Holloway the damage. Hurricane Katrina had stripped the roof bare,

and a new one would be required. On this modest house alone, 70 miles
from the Gulf of Mexico, State Farm will be writing a check for
thousands of dollars.


The scene will replay again and again across the region. Everywhere but

New Orleans, insurance adjusters are thick on the ground already --
stuffing hotels, grabbing anything that resembles office space, firing
up generators and pointing satellite dishes skyward in a desperate
attempt to get Internet access in a region where many people still lack

electricity. They are buoying spirits across three states with
immediate $2,500 and $5,000 checks to cover living expenses.


But the process of adjudicating several million claims has barely
begun, and Hurricane Katrina is already posing a vexing set of
insurance problems that will reach all the way to Washington. For
starters, much of the damage along the Gulf Coast was caused by a surge

of water that rose as high as 30 feet, the biggest storm surge ever
recorded in North America. That surge was technically a flood, even
though it was produced by a hurricane, and it is not covered by
standard homeowners' insurance.


Flood insurance has to be bought separately from the federal
government. Many people in New Orleans had it, and they are likely to
be made whole, though the payments are expected to send the
government's flood-insurance program into the red.


In Alabama and Mississippi, by contrast, many people did not have flood

coverage, and that is sowing the seeds of a potentially vast conflict
involving angry consumers, insurance companies, banks that write
mortgages, state regulators and lawmakers in Washington.


A huge fight may yet be averted if insurers succumb to political
pressure to attribute most of the region's damage to wind instead of
flooding -- a policy that regulators say could put some insurers at
risk of bankruptcy.


If the insurers enforce their policies as written, politicians are
going to find themselves coping with unhappy constituents throughout
the Gulf Coast who did not realize their damage would not be covered.
There is already talk of massive lawsuits and the need for wholesale
changes in the way federal flood insurance works.


"I had $60,000 worth of contents, and I thought I had it made," said
Dorice Mitchell, a 40-year resident of Pascagoula, Miss., who lost many

of his belongings when his house flooded. He walked away from a State
Farm catastrophe center empty-handed last week after learning his
policy won't help him. "They said it ain't worth a dime. No flood
insurance. I'm going to be living in apple crates."


Because the task of assessing damage has barely begun, nobody has a
clear idea how large insurance payouts will be. Preliminary forecasts
run as high as $60 billion, which would make Katrina far costlier than
Hurricane Andrew, the monster 1992 storm that walloped southern
Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi and led to insurance payments of
more than $20 billion in today's dollars. Andrew was a "dry hurricane"
that did not produce anything like the flooding associated with
Katrina.


Insurance companies will not offer estimates of their exposure, saying
it is simply too early to tell. But in this college town in
southeastern Mississippi, it is possible to get a preliminary sense of
the financial scope of the disaster.


Katrina did not fall below hurricane strength until the eye was near
Laurel, Miss., 30 miles northeast of Hattiesburg and 100 miles from the

Gulf of Mexico. The storm caused damage in a dozen states and reached
Canada before it weakened into insignificance. Katrina cut a
devastating path deep into central Mississippi, paralyzing the state
government in Jackson for days.


In regions so far inland they rarely see damage from tropical storms,
Katrina killed dozens of people, snapped electrical poles off at the
ground, drove tree limbs deep into houses, ripped open roofs, knocked
down barns and traumatized tens of thousands of people. As of Saturday,

more than 427,000 households in Louisiana and more than 162,000 in
Mississippi remained without power, according to the U.S. Department of

Energy.


Throughout the region, governments were struggling over the weekend to
restore basic services. Hundreds of thousands of people were still
living in shelters. Frenzied utility crews sweated in the hot sun,
swatting away bugs, to rebuild the region's electric grid.


State Farm, the nation's largest insurance carrier and also the largest

in the afflicted states, grabbed an old furniture store in Hattiesburg
right after the storm to set up a catastrophe center, and more than 100

adjusters are already operating out of it. State Farm, Allstate and
other insurers have also stuck vans with claims processors in the
parking lots of malls and Home Depot stores across the region.


The companies, whose policies generally reimburse people for temporary
living expenses caused by a disaster, are writing instantaneous checks
for policyholders forced out of their homes. "For some of them it's a
total surprise," said Daniel McNamara, who lives in Connecticut and
heads a Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. catastrophe team operating at
the Home Depot parking lot in Hattiesburg. "They're tickled pink."


Under a tent in a parking lot in Pascagoula last week, policyholders
waited to see State Farm representatives. Shondra Jefferson,
traumatized from watching people drown in the storm, left her 15-minute

meeting with State Farm clutching a $2,500 check. "My funds are
depleted," she said. She plans to use the money to patch her roof and
clear debris.


Consumer advocates who monitor insurance issues say this initial phase
of disaster response usually goes well.


"The insurance industry has learned that while the TV cameras are
rolling, it's good to put on your nice shirt and write some additional
living-expense checks for people," said J. Robert Hunter, former Texas
insurance commissioner and director of insurance at the Consumer
Federation of America in Washington. "It's nice theater. And in fact,
they owe the money. The trouble comes months later."


State Farm's temporary center in Hattiesburg will be ground zero for
handling claims from 13 Mississippi counties, not including the six
closest to the Gulf of Mexico. Randy May, who arrived from Denver after

the storm to head the operation, said his territory includes 24,000
homeowners with State Farm policies. By Friday afternoon, 8,505 of
those policyholders had already called to report claims, and 12 percent

of the cases were classified as having severe damage.


The insurers pride themselves on rapid response to catastrophes. When
Holloway, dean of students at the University of Southern Mississippi in

Hattiesburg, called State Farm to report damage to several of his
rental properties, he heard back from Rasmussen, the adjuster assigned
to two of his houses, within two hours. "I was totally surprised,"
Holloway said. "I'm most grateful for the immediate response."


Still, settling claims is often a laborious process that can involve
haggling over contractor estimates and over the value of a home's
contents, assuming they were destroyed. Particularly near the coast,
many people lost the very records that would let them document the
value of their contents. And demand for contractors will be sky high in

the disaster zone, slowing work.


The biggest debates are likely to come over whether homes near the
coast were destroyed by wind or flood.


Of the estimated 400,000 flooded properties in three coastal counties
of Mississippi -- Hancock, Harrison and Jackson -- just 21,600 had
flood-insurance policies, said George Dale, the Mississippi insurance
commissioner.


Though some flooded residents of Louisiana also lacked flood coverage,
that state is in better shape, according to figures from the Federal
Emergency Management Agency. As of September 2004, 376,681 flood
policies were in force in Louisiana, compared with 41,946 in
Mississippi and 41,336 in Alabama.


"All these people pay high insurance to live on the coast," Dale said.
"They think, 'Well it has never flooded before. I'm paying enough
already -- I don't need it.' "


Hunter, of the consumer group, said most coastal homes probably
suffered some wind damage before floodwaters destroyed them. But he
said insurers have a financial incentive to attribute as much of the
damage as possible to flooding, since they do not have to pay flood
claims.


Hunter called on state insurance departments to pressure the companies
to use windstorm modeling or other techniques to try to calculate how
badly homes in a given neighborhood were damaged by wind before the
water hit.


"What I'm afraid you'll see is, the policyholder has a $100,000 house
and the insurance companies will say, 'It's 5 percent wind damage,' "
Hunter said. " 'Here's $5,000; take it or leave it.' "
Tim May
2005-09-12 18:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
This article is filled with factual errors, besides its liberal,
anti-market sping.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/11/AR200...
Claims Mark Recovery's Beginning
But Deciding How Much Damage Is Attributable to Floods May Get Tricky
By Justin Gillis and Amy Joyce
Washington Post Staff Writers
Insurance adjusters are flooding the region to cope with claims
expected to number in the millions. Homeowners across a huge swath of
the country now confront the most important financial moment of their
lives -- getting an insurer to keep its promise to make them whole
after a disaster.
Homeowner's insurance, the general term for what we're talking about
(business insurance is also an issue, but I'll stick to homeowners, as
the the article here mostly does), does NOT automatically give a
"promise to make them whole."

Namely:

-- many people underinsure their property

-- "guaranteed replacement" policies cost extra, and few buy them

-- flood insurance, like earthquake insurance, is extra $$$

(And floods are, basically, anytime the water comes up from below. If
the water falls from the sky, as rain or snow, damage it causes to a
well-maintained house (solid roof, etc.) is covered. If the water comes
from a river, a lake, a dam break, a levee break, etc., it is FLOOD
DAMAGE. If the homeowner bought a flood damage rider, OK. If not, out
of luck. As it should be.)


...
Post by Too_Many_Tools
of water that rose as high as 30 feet, the biggest storm surge ever
recorded in North America. That surge was technically a flood, even
though it was produced by a hurricane, and it is not covered by
standard homeowners' insurance.
Here they got it right.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
Flood insurance has to be bought separately from the federal
government. Many people in New Orleans had it, and they are likely to
be made whole, though the payments are expected to send the
government's flood-insurance program into the red.
By the way, two properties in mid-town New Orleans were flooded to the
top of their first floors, and still are mostly flooded. I expect they
are total losses, due to the wood rot, mold, destruction of the
electrical systems, etc. (Apparently stripping them down to the frames
and rebuilding from there is costlier than simply bulldozing, carting
off the rubble, and rebuilding from scratch. I believe it.)

She had no flood insurance. And yet she thinks "FEMA will pay for it."

I asked if she had federal flood insurance. No.

And yet she thinks Uncle Sugar will pay her for what she chose not to
insure herself for.

I have no special dispensation for family members: if she had no
insurance, she should not have taxpayers pay to "make her whole."

She needs to play the cards she was dealt.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
A huge fight may yet be averted if insurers succumb to political
pressure to attribute most of the region's damage to wind instead of
flooding -- a policy that regulators say could put some insurers at
risk of bankruptcy.
My sister even acknowledged that the actual hurricane did little damage
to her house...it was the rising water which did the damage.

By the way, the above phrase, "could put some insurers at risk of
bankruptcy," is a code phrase for "government bail-out," that is,
government paying for flood damage even for those who bought no flood
insurance.

(Will those who foolishly paid flood insurance premiums get a refund
for their N years of premiums? A bail-out will make future disasters
even costlier, for the usual reasons.)
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If the insurers enforce their policies as written, politicians are
going to find themselves coping with unhappy constituents throughout
the Gulf Coast who did not realize their damage would not be covered.
Politicians need to simply say "Not our problem. Not my problem.
Unconstitutional to give you money from the treasury."
Post by Too_Many_Tools
There is already talk of massive lawsuits and the need for wholesale
changes in the way federal flood insurance works.
Meaning, cover people even without their paying. Or tax those who
choose to live 30-feet above sea level to pay for those who live below
sea level. Or tax those who live in the hot inland areas to pay for
those with luxury homes on the sand in Gulfport and Waveland.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
"I had $60,000 worth of contents, and I thought I had it made," said
Dorice Mitchell, a 40-year resident of Pascagoula, Miss., who lost many
of his belongings when his house flooded. He walked away from a State
Farm catastrophe center empty-handed last week after learning his
policy won't help him. "They said it ain't worth a dime. No flood
insurance. I'm going to be living in apple crates."
Shit happens. This is how later generations learn.

If government socializes these losses, more will suffer in the future.
("Shit, I don't gots to pay no 'surance money! Gubmint take care of
it.")
Post by Too_Many_Tools
"What I'm afraid you'll see is, the policyholder has a $100,000 house
and the insurance companies will say, 'It's 5 percent wind damage,' "
Hunter said. " 'Here's $5,000; take it or leave it.' "
As it should be.


--Tim May
Tim May
2005-09-12 19:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
By the way, two properties in mid-town New Orleans were flooded to the
top of their first floors, and still are mostly flooded. I expect they
are total losses, due to the wood rot, mold, destruction of the
electrical systems, etc. (Apparently stripping them down to the frames
and rebuilding from there is costlier than simply bulldozing, carting
off the rubble, and rebuilding from scratch. I believe it.)
I meant to say these properties are owned by my SISTER, but in editing
I lost that mention. She lived in one of these properties and
rented-out the other. As I said, both flooded. And she chose not to buy
flood insurance.

(She is, to her credit, not claiming she was "misled" by insurance
companies. Many are, though, citing the old "they didn't tell me" and
"I didn't know New Orleans is under sea level!" chestnuts.)
Post by Tim May
She had no flood insurance. And yet she thinks "FEMA will pay for it."
I asked if she had federal flood insurance. No.
And yet she thinks Uncle Sugar will pay her for what she chose not to
insure herself for.
I expect she will receive a check for about $3000, covering some minor
wind damage to the houses before flooding happened. She will receive no
flood payments, I expect.

About $140,000 in actual losses, I am estimating, as the land the
houses were built on will eventually be sold for some use...someday,
when and if New Orleans becomes a major city again.


--Tim May
Strabo
2005-09-12 20:27:44 UTC
Permalink
In Re: OT - Katrina and Insurance Claims on Mon, 12 Sep 2005
Post by Tim May
Post by Tim May
By the way, two properties in mid-town New Orleans were flooded to the
top of their first floors, and still are mostly flooded. I expect they
are total losses, due to the wood rot, mold, destruction of the
electrical systems, etc. (Apparently stripping them down to the frames
and rebuilding from there is costlier than simply bulldozing, carting
off the rubble, and rebuilding from scratch. I believe it.)
I meant to say these properties are owned by my SISTER, but in editing
I lost that mention. She lived in one of these properties and
rented-out the other. As I said, both flooded. And she chose not to buy
flood insurance.
(She is, to her credit, not claiming she was "misled" by insurance
companies. Many are, though, citing the old "they didn't tell me" and
"I didn't know New Orleans is under sea level!" chestnuts.)
Post by Tim May
She had no flood insurance. And yet she thinks "FEMA will pay for it."
I asked if she had federal flood insurance. No.
And yet she thinks Uncle Sugar will pay her for what she chose not to
insure herself for.
I expect she will receive a check for about $3000, covering some minor
wind damage to the houses before flooding happened. She will receive no
flood payments, I expect.
About $140,000 in actual losses, I am estimating, as the land the
houses were built on will eventually be sold for some use...someday,
when and if New Orleans becomes a major city again.
Opportunity knocks. Buy 'em. The structures at least can be
salvaged if someone gets in there right away and drys
them from top to bottom.
Post by Tim May
--Tim May
Logan Shaw
2005-09-12 22:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
Insurance adjusters are flooding the region to cope with claims
"flooding the region"? Har har har! That's a good one!
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
expected to number in the millions. Homeowners across a huge swath of
the country now confront the most important financial moment of their
lives -- getting an insurer to keep its promise to make them whole
after a disaster.
Homeowner's insurance, the general term for what we're talking about
(business insurance is also an issue, but I'll stick to homeowners, as
the the article here mostly does), does NOT automatically give a
"promise to make them whole."
Agreed 100%. The purpose of insurance, despite what they imply on
TV commercials (where they show time being reversed and everything
being put back like it was) is to prevent disasters from becoming
financial disasters. Insurance is there to reduce the impact to a
level that you can handle it without losing your life savings.

You can try to buy more insurance for that, so that if something
happens you are totally covered and you feel no impact at all, but
there are two problems with that:

(1) it costs an arm and a leg, and it's cheaper overall to just have
good financial planning and the right amount of insurance.
(2) it eliminates the incentive to prevent problems (because it's
100% covered by insurance), which causes carelessness and waste,
which is bad for society in general.
Post by Tim May
She had no flood insurance. And yet she thinks "FEMA will pay for it."
I asked if she had federal flood insurance. No.
And yet she thinks Uncle Sugar will pay her for what she chose not to
insure herself for.
I have no special dispensation for family members: if she had no
insurance, she should not have taxpayers pay to "make her whole."
In a sense, you're right, but I don't totally agree that she shouldn't
get a dime. The federal, state, and local governments mishandled this
badly. We have known for many years (maybe decades) that a risk of this
existed, and the government did little to prepare for that. I think they
did less than the minimum that should've been done.

Now, the government is not like the bank in Monopoly and can't just give
out free money if it feels like it. There will be a cost to somebody.
The question is who will pay it. The residents who didn't have flood
insurance are to blame, but the government is also to blame for inadequate
preparations, so personally I think they should split it. Perhaps those
who didn't have flood insurance should get 50% or 25% of what they would
have if they'd had insurance.


Speaking of insurance, though, I'm curious about something. In most (or
all?) states, people who have a mortgage are required to have homeowner's
insurance in order to protect themselves and the mortgage company. Is it
possible for a mortgage company to require someone whose house has
significant flood danger (say, someone whose house is than 25 ft above
sea level and is within 10 miles of the coast) to carry flood insurance?

If not, perhaps state or federal law should be changed to add this requirement.
If such a requirement existed, it seems like it would certainly increase
the percentage of the people who have flood insurance. And the extra bonus
would be that after you pay off your home, you'd be legally allowed to
cancel your flood insurance, but you'd have to make a conscious decision
to do so, so at least you'd be forced to consider the consequences.

- Logan
SoCalMike
2005-09-12 22:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Logan Shaw
insurance in order to protect themselves and the mortgage company. Is it
possible for a mortgage company to require someone whose house has
significant flood danger (say, someone whose house is than 25 ft above
sea level and is within 10 miles of the coast) to carry flood insurance?
absolutely. when i bought my condo, one of the things that was checked
was whether the place was in a flood plain or not.
r***@hotmail.com
2005-09-13 00:42:44 UTC
Permalink
SoCalMike wrote:

absolutely. when i bought my condo, one of the things that was checked
was whether the place was in a flood plain or not.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not to belabor the obvious, but a lot of NO is not on the flood plane
but below the flood plane. I have the 2000 DeLorme Topo for whole
USA. I load sections to veiw the local topography during any major
news event. So I loaded the LA and MI sections and was amazed
to see just how much of NO was below sea level. And how slow the
altitude increased with distance.

Anyone who lives 20' above sea level within sight of the ocean is just
plan silly for not buying flood insurance.

I hate to sound hard hearted but screw them. If you want to enjoy the
view, you are accepting the risk. If you don't prepare for the
likleyhood
of storm surge in an area frequented by huricanes got the screwing that
being stupid brings.

Why should I pay for their view?

I saw a news article that mentioned that each US taxpayer is in
for over $600 for the money promised so far.

While I consider the risk from the New Madrid fault to be minimal
we none the less have earhtquake insurance. And for water to
reach into our house would require the 40day and 40 night rain event.
Not real likely, but we have flood insurance anyway. If I can afford
to take the proper steps to protect our economic well being, so
could they.

Terry
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 00:48:38 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Sep 2005 17:42:44 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by r***@hotmail.com
While I consider the risk from the New Madrid fault to be minimal
we none the less have earhtquake insurance. And for water to
reach into our house would require the 40day and 40 night rain event.
Not real likely, but we have flood insurance anyway. If I can afford
to take the proper steps to protect our economic well being, so
could they.
Terry
Earthquake insurance is very expensive here.. it would more then triple my
homeowners insurance rate and it has a $25,000 deductible.. but I live in a
state that is near the cascadia subduction zone.
r***@hotmail.com
2005-09-13 01:05:20 UTC
Permalink
amdf...

Earthquake insurance is very expensive here.. it would more then triple
my
homeowners insurance rate and it has a $25,000 deductible.. but I live
in a
state that is near the cascadia subduction zone.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you willing to go on the record and state that you have willingly
accepted complete liability for earthquake damage or do you
expect the feds, us really, to pay for your choice?

I get sick an tired of people bitching and moaning when a flood wipes
out their town. When the Mississippi river flooded about ten years ago
it was sad to watch people trying to protect their towns with sand bag
levees. For me that sadness turned to anger when I did some research
and found out how many times the river had flooded in the last 100
years.
And they kept rebuilding. That is the diffiniton either stupitiy or
insanity.

I am sick and tired of rewarding people for their bad choices.

Like I said in another thread, enjoy the view accept the risks.
All of the risks.

Terry
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 01:21:28 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Sep 2005 18:05:20 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by r***@hotmail.com
amdf...
Earthquake insurance is very expensive here.. it would more then triple my
homeowners insurance rate and it has a $25,000 deductible.. but I live in a
state that is near the cascadia subduction zone.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you willing to go on the record and state that you have willingly
accepted complete liability for earthquake damage or do you
expect the feds, us really, to pay for your choice?
My choice?? Better blame my great-grandparents as they are the ones who moved
here. My grandparents and parents were all born and raised in this state.

What you are suggesting is the no one at all live in Southern British Columbia
all the way south to Northern California. Do you know what the Cascadia
Subduction Zone is?
Tom Quackenbush
2005-09-13 01:43:55 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Are you willing to go on the record and state that you have willingly
accepted complete liability for earthquake damage or do you
expect the feds, us really, to pay for your choice?
My choice?? Better blame my great-grandparents as they are the ones who moved
here. My grandparents and parents were all born and raised in this state.
Are you required to live where your great-grandparents did? That
wouldn't seem very fair.

R,
Tom Q.
Tim May
2005-09-13 04:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Quackenbush
<snip>
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Are you willing to go on the record and state that you have willingly
accepted complete liability for earthquake damage or do you
expect the feds, us really, to pay for your choice?
My choice?? Better blame my great-grandparents as they are the ones who moved
here. My grandparents and parents were all born and raised in this state.
Are you required to live where your great-grandparents did? That
wouldn't seem very fair.
He may be a negro, as they often live for many generations within a
10-block by 10-block zone.

This would also explain why he thinks its other people's responsibility
to compensate him for his choices.


--Tim May
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 04:22:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:12:19 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Tim May
Post by Tim May
Post by Tom Quackenbush
<snip>
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Are you willing to go on the record and state that you have willingly
accepted complete liability for earthquake damage or do you
expect the feds, us really, to pay for your choice?
My choice?? Better blame my great-grandparents as they are the ones who moved
here. My grandparents and parents were all born and raised in this state.
Are you required to live where your great-grandparents did? That
wouldn't seem very fair.
He may be a negro, as they often live for many generations within a
10-block by 10-block zone.
This would also explain why he thinks its other people's responsibility
to compensate him for his choices.
--Tim May
Ah yes it's all black and white, the whole world.. LOL

PLONK!
SoCalMike
2005-09-13 01:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by SoCalMike
absolutely. when i bought my condo, one of the things that was checked
was whether the place was in a flood plain or not.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not to belabor the obvious, but a lot of NO is not on the flood plane
but below the flood plane. I have the 2000 DeLorme Topo for whole
USA. I load sections to veiw the local topography during any major
news event. So I loaded the LA and MI sections and was amazed
to see just how much of NO was below sea level. And how slow the
altitude increased with distance.
Anyone who lives 20' above sea level within sight of the ocean is just
plan silly for not buying flood insurance.
46', and 8 miles away. the real risk in this area is the rivers, aka
"flood control channels" overrunning their banks.
Post by SoCalMike
I hate to sound hard hearted but screw them. If you want to enjoy the
view, you are accepting the risk. If you don't prepare for the
likleyhood
of storm surge in an area frequented by huricanes got the screwing that
being stupid brings.
Why should I pay for their view?
I saw a news article that mentioned that each US taxpayer is in
for over $600 for the money promised so far.
likely. id love to (no, i wouldnt) know what each USA taxpayer owes for
this fraudulent "war" thing thats dragging on forever.
Post by SoCalMike
While I consider the risk from the New Madrid fault to be minimal
we none the less have earhtquake insurance. And for water to
reach into our house would require the 40day and 40 night rain event.
Not real likely, but we have flood insurance anyway. If I can afford
to take the proper steps to protect our economic well being, so
could they.
the less the chance, the lower the premiums.
Post by SoCalMike
Terry
Tim May
2005-09-12 23:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Logan Shaw
In a sense, you're right, but I don't totally agree that she shouldn't
get a dime. The federal, state, and local governments mishandled this
badly. We have known for many years (maybe decades) that a risk of this
existed, and the government did little to prepare for that. I think they
did less than the minimum that should've been done.
I disagree. The city was built on reclaimed land, under sea level. Over
time, as soils compressed (the way sandstone is made), the depth below
sea level increased to dangerous levels.

This was widely known. When I called my family on Saturday, 36 hours
before the hurricane, 50-some hours before the levees broke, I used two
Led Zeppelin songs concatenated together: "Goin' to California...When
the Levee Breaks."

She knew it, she didn't think it would happen to her.

Why should others pay?
Post by Logan Shaw
Now, the government is not like the bank in Monopoly and can't just give
out free money if it feels like it. There will be a cost to somebody.
The question is who will pay it. The residents who didn't have flood
insurance are to blame, but the government is also to blame for inadequate
preparations, so personally I think they should split it. Perhaps those
who didn't have flood insurance should get 50% or 25% of what they would
have if they'd had insurance.
Should those who bought flood insurance then be repaid (by Uncle Sugar,
the taxpayers) 50%, with compounded interest, of the insurance premiums
they paid for the past 20, 30, 40 years?

--Tim May
Robert Sturgeon
2005-09-13 00:23:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:13:05 GMT, Logan Shaw
<lshaw-***@austin.rr.com> wrote:

(snips)
Post by Logan Shaw
Now, the government is not like the bank in Monopoly and can't just give
out free money if it feels like it.
Yes, it can.
Post by Logan Shaw
There will be a cost to somebody.
No, there will be a cost to everyone with Dollar-denominated
assets - in the form of inflation.
Post by Logan Shaw
The question is who will pay it.
Everyone with Dollar-denominated assets will.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Sue
2005-09-13 00:31:00 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:57:29 -0700, Tim May
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
This article is filled with factual errors, besides its liberal,
anti-market sping.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/11/AR200...
Claims Mark Recovery's Beginning
But Deciding How Much Damage Is Attributable to Floods May Get Tricky
By Justin Gillis and Amy Joyce
Washington Post Staff Writers
Insurance adjusters are flooding the region to cope with claims
expected to number in the millions. Homeowners across a huge swath of
the country now confront the most important financial moment of their
lives -- getting an insurer to keep its promise to make them whole
after a disaster.
Homeowner's insurance, the general term for what we're talking about
(business insurance is also an issue, but I'll stick to homeowners, as
the the article here mostly does), does NOT automatically give a
"promise to make them whole."
-- many people underinsure their property
-- "guaranteed replacement" policies cost extra, and few buy them
-- flood insurance, like earthquake insurance, is extra $$$
(And floods are, basically, anytime the water comes up from below. If
the water falls from the sky, as rain or snow, damage it causes to a
well-maintained house (solid roof, etc.) is covered. If the water comes
from a river, a lake, a dam break, a levee break, etc., it is FLOOD
DAMAGE. If the homeowner bought a flood damage rider, OK. If not, out
of luck. As it should be.)
...
Post by Too_Many_Tools
of water that rose as high as 30 feet, the biggest storm surge ever
recorded in North America. That surge was technically a flood, even
though it was produced by a hurricane, and it is not covered by
standard homeowners' insurance.
Here they got it right.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
Flood insurance has to be bought separately from the federal
government. Many people in New Orleans had it, and they are likely to
be made whole, though the payments are expected to send the
government's flood-insurance program into the red.
By the way, two properties in mid-town New Orleans were flooded to the
top of their first floors, and still are mostly flooded. I expect they
are total losses, due to the wood rot, mold, destruction of the
electrical systems, etc. (Apparently stripping them down to the frames
and rebuilding from there is costlier than simply bulldozing, carting
off the rubble, and rebuilding from scratch. I believe it.)
She had no flood insurance. And yet she thinks "FEMA will pay for it."
I asked if she had federal flood insurance. No.
And yet she thinks Uncle Sugar will pay her for what she chose not to
insure herself for.
I have no special dispensation for family members: if she had no
insurance, she should not have taxpayers pay to "make her whole."
She needs to play the cards she was dealt.
She sounds like a nitwit to me. Typical airheaded woman.
Sue
Edwin Pawlowski
2005-09-12 19:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
Where did it say that? What I read is that they are already paying living
expenses tokeep people going.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
"What I'm afraid you'll see is, the policyholder has a $100,000 house
and the insurance companies will say, 'It's 5 percent wind damage,' "
Hunter said. " 'Here's $5,000; take it or leave it.' "
This is an assumption made by someone, not a fact of what has happened yet.
I see no FACTS to base a decision or form an opinion.
Glenn Ashmore
2005-09-12 20:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
Where did it say that? What I read is that they are already paying living
expenses tokeep people going.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
"What I'm afraid you'll see is, the policyholder has a $100,000 house
and the insurance companies will say, 'It's 5 percent wind damage,' "
Hunter said. " 'Here's $5,000; take it or leave it.' "
This is an assumption made by someone, not a fact of what has happened
yet. I see no FACTS to base a decision or form an opinion.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is that
if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you are not.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Chris
2005-09-12 21:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
Where did it say that? What I read is that they are already paying
living expenses tokeep people going.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
"What I'm afraid you'll see is, the policyholder has a $100,000 house
and the insurance companies will say, 'It's 5 percent wind damage,' "
Hunter said. " 'Here's $5,000; take it or leave it.' "
This is an assumption made by someone, not a fact of what has happened
yet. I see no FACTS to base a decision or form an opinion.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Sideways?
Leon
2005-09-12 21:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
--
Sideways?
In the case of a Hurricane sideways is not unusual. In 1970 our house
filled with water, not from a hole in the roof and not from rising water in
the street. It blew through the brick veneer and around the windows. The
weep holes at the bottom of the brick could not drain fast enough and the
water came in from the bottom of the soaked walls. The top of the walls
were dry. Pretty freaky.
Glenn Ashmore
2005-09-12 22:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by Glenn Ashmore
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Sideways?
Sideways is good if it started out higher than the damage.

I have seen some real nits picked on this subject. One example: a water
supply line broke where it enters a house at basement floor level. The
water rose and flooded out the HVAC and everything in the basement.
Coverage denied because it was rising water. OTOH, supply line breaks in
the basement ceiling and floods the HVAC and everything in the basement.
THEN you are covered because the water came from above the damage.

To carry it to extremes, if you could prove that the water came in as a big
wave that crested in the front yard and fell on your house you would be
covered but storm surges and tsunamis don't work like that. They flow
along rising and pushing everything over.

In this case there will have to be some determination of how much damage was
done by wind and how much by the surge. If you have seen aerial pictures of
Gulf Port, that yellow line of framing timber marks the boundary. Everybody
shore side of that line will probably be covered. Those within the debris
field will have to be split between wind and flood damage. Those on the
Gulf side will probably have to file for bankruptcy just as the laws change
to screw them.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
p***@vermontgage.com
2005-09-14 13:27:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Chris
Post by Glenn Ashmore
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Sideways?
Sideways is good if it started out higher than the damage.
I have seen some real nits picked on this subject. One example: a water
supply line broke where it enters a house at basement floor level. The
water rose and flooded out the HVAC and everything in the basement.
Coverage denied because it was rising water. OTOH, supply line breaks in
the basement ceiling and floods the HVAC and everything in the basement.
THEN you are covered because the water came from above the damage.
To carry it to extremes, if you could prove that the water came in as a big
wave that crested in the front yard and fell on your house you would be
covered but storm surges and tsunamis don't work like that. They flow
along rising and pushing everything over.
In this case there will have to be some determination of how much damage was
done by wind and how much by the surge. If you have seen aerial pictures of
Gulf Port, that yellow line of framing timber marks the boundary. Everybody
shore side of that line will probably be covered. Those within the debris
field will have to be split between wind and flood damage. Those on the
Gulf side will probably have to file for bankruptcy just as the laws change
to screw them.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Speaking from personal experience.
During the Ice Storm that hit the Northeast in the late nineties, a
culvert was blocked by ice and caused water to rise and flood back
through my perimeter drain and into my basement. No, I did not have
flood insurance. Not only did the insurance company cover all damage
and personal belongings, they sent an adjuster and paid the claim in
less than 2 weeks. This while they were handling thousands of other
claims from the storm. I have had some unsatisfactory results from
insurance companies also, (Sorry, it wasn't covered) but find they tend
to be more lenient when large disasters are involved.
I think we should give the Insurance companies a chance to show how
they are going to respond before complaining. Also, only give first
hand information, not hearsay, friend of a friend, always 'friendly'
press or speculation.
"Just the facts, Ma'm"
Edwin Pawlowski
2005-09-13 00:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Glenn Ashmore
But the article posted did not mention that. The OP drew that conclusion
from it somehow and that is what I questioned. If the insurance company is
not liable, they have no obligation to pay. If you live 6' below sea level
and have no flood insurance, don't cry on my shoulder.
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 00:42:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:05:45 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Edwin
Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Glenn Ashmore
But the article posted did not mention that. The OP drew that conclusion
from it somehow and that is what I questioned. If the insurance company is
not liable, they have no obligation to pay. If you live 6' below sea level
and have no flood insurance, don't cry on my shoulder.
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Chris
2005-09-13 00:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:05:45 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Edwin
Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Glenn Ashmore
But the article posted did not mention that. The OP drew that conclusion
from it somehow and that is what I questioned. If the insurance company is
not liable, they have no obligation to pay. If you live 6' below sea level
and have no flood insurance, don't cry on my shoulder.
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker? Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 01:19:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:52:53 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:05:45 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Edwin
Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Glenn Ashmore
But the article posted did not mention that. The OP drew that conclusion
from it somehow and that is what I questioned. If the insurance company is
not liable, they have no obligation to pay. If you live 6' below sea level
and have no flood insurance, don't cry on my shoulder.
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker? Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Chris
2005-09-13 01:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:52:53 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:05:45 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Edwin
Post by Edwin Pawlowski
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Too_Many_Tools
If you were wondering how claims are handled in these situations, here
is an insight into the process. From experiences that I have been seen,
the insurance company will try anything to wriggle out paying a claim.
That is not only fact, it is long held policy and one of the first things
you learn in insurance schools.. An axiom of the insurance business is
that if the water comes DOWN you are covered. If the water comes UP you
are not.
--
Glenn Ashmore
But the article posted did not mention that. The OP drew that conclusion
from it somehow and that is what I questioned. If the insurance company is
not liable, they have no obligation to pay. If you live 6' below sea level
and have no flood insurance, don't cry on my shoulder.
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Since when is the government handing out loans? Or is this some new welfare
thing I am not aware of?
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 01:54:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:29:40 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Since when is the government handing out loans? Or is this some new welfare
thing I am not aware of?
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
Chris
2005-09-13 01:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:29:40 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Since when is the government handing out loans? Or is this some new welfare
thing I am not aware of?
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
SoCalMike
2005-09-13 03:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
doesnt HUD give loans?
Chris
2005-09-13 03:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by SoCalMike
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
doesnt HUD give loans?
HUD guarantees loans to the original loaner or mortgagee. Much like PMI
that us working stiffs pay for, if needed. In other words, another source
of welfare provided by our government.

This is, given his comments, as our disillusioned friend has, another
handout from our government. Although the welfare poster may be correct,
many government programs barley trust them to pay the mortgage they insure,
yet alone the associated flood insurance. Nor do they trust the homeowner's
intelligence to select a safe home, thus the strict guidance on their
insurance. More or less when you are getting mortgage insurance from the
government, they will assume your are an idiot and provide strict guidelines
on the home you purchase. At less some savings for us working stiffs.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 04:29:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:45:00 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by SoCalMike
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
doesnt HUD give loans?
HUD guarantees loans to the original loaner or mortgagee. Much like PMI
that us working stiffs pay for, if needed. In other words, another source
of welfare provided by our government.
This is, given his comments, as our disillusioned friend has, another
handout from our government. Although the welfare poster may be correct,
many government programs barley trust them to pay the mortgage they insure,
yet alone the associated flood insurance. Nor do they trust the homeowner's
intelligence to select a safe home, thus the strict guidance on their
insurance. More or less when you are getting mortgage insurance from the
government, they will assume your are an idiot and provide strict guidelines
on the home you purchase. At less some savings for us working stiffs.
Yep it's welfare alright... CORPORATE WELFARE

You're just a racist, if you were worried about Welfare dollars and where they
go you would focus on corporate welfare. Racism is ugly in any color.


Business and Industry Guaranteed Loans

The Business and Industry (B&I) Guaranteed Loan Program helps create jobs and
stimulates rural economies by providing financial backing for rural businesses.
This program provides guarantees up to 80 percent of a loan made by a commercial
lender. Loan proceeds may be used for working capital, machinery and equipment,
buildings and real estate, and certain types of debt refinancing. The primary
purpose is to create and maintain employment and improve the economic climate in
rural communities. This is achieved by expanding the lending capability of
private lenders in rural areas, helping them make and service quality loans that
provide lasting community benefits. This program represents a true private-
public partnership.

B&I loan guarantees can be extended to loans made by recognized commercial or
other authorized lenders in rural areas (this includes all areas other than
cities of more than 50,000 people and the contiguous and urbanized area of such
cities or towns). Generally, authorized lenders include Federal or State
chartered banks, credit unions, insurance companies, savings and loan
associations, Farm Credit Banks or other Farm Credit System institutions with
direct lending authority, a mortgage company that is part of a bank holding
company, and the National Rural Utilities Finance Corporation. Other loan
sources include eligible Rural Utilities Service electric and telecommunications
borrowers and other lenders approved by RBS who have met the designated
criteria.

Assistance under the B&I Guaranteed Loan Program is available to virtually any
legally organized entity, including a cooperative, corporation, partnership,
trust or other profit or nonprofit entity, Indian tribe or Federally recognized
tribal group, municipality, county, or other political subdivision of a State.
Applicants need not have been denied credit elsewhere to apply for this program.

The maximum aggregate B&I Guaranteed Loan(s) amount that can be offered to any
one borrower under this program is $25 million. A maximum of 10 percent of
program funding is available to value-added cooperative organizations for loans
above $25 million to a maximum aggregate of $40 million.



The following financial data is as of September 30, 2004:
Obligations by State for 2000 through 2004




Memorandum of Agreement with Colson Services Corporation, a subsidiary of JP
Morgan Chase Bank The agreement will provide greater opportunity for rural
lenders to participate in Rural Development's Business and Industry (B&I)
guaranteed loan program.

Program Administration

The program is administered at the State level by Rural Development State
Offices. To obtain the addresses and telephone numbers of State Offices, visit
the Rural Development Field Office locator. For further information on this
program, please call the State Office servicing your State.

Available online forms can be found at www.sc.egov.usda.gov
Chris
2005-09-13 05:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:45:00 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by SoCalMike
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how
only
in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
doesnt HUD give loans?
HUD guarantees loans to the original loaner or mortgagee. Much like PMI
that us working stiffs pay for, if needed. In other words, another source
of welfare provided by our government.
This is, given his comments, as our disillusioned friend has, another
handout from our government. Although the welfare poster may be correct,
many government programs barley trust them to pay the mortgage they insure,
yet alone the associated flood insurance. Nor do they trust the homeowner's
intelligence to select a safe home, thus the strict guidance on their
insurance. More or less when you are getting mortgage insurance from the
government, they will assume your are an idiot and provide strict guidelines
on the home you purchase. At less some savings for us working stiffs.
Yep it's welfare alright... CORPORATE WELFARE
You're just a racist, if you were worried about Welfare dollars and where they
go you would focus on corporate welfare. Racism is ugly in any color.
Business and Industry Guaranteed Loans
The Business and Industry (B&I) Guaranteed Loan Program helps create jobs and
stimulates rural economies by providing financial backing for rural businesses.
This program provides guarantees up to 80 percent of a loan made by a commercial
lender. Loan proceeds may be used for working capital, machinery and equipment,
buildings and real estate, and certain types of debt refinancing. The primary
purpose is to create and maintain employment and improve the economic climate in
rural communities. This is achieved by expanding the lending capability of
private lenders in rural areas, helping them make and service quality loans that
provide lasting community benefits. This program represents a true private-
public partnership.
B&I loan guarantees can be extended to loans made by recognized commercial or
other authorized lenders in rural areas (this includes all areas other than
cities of more than 50,000 people and the contiguous and urbanized area of such
cities or towns). Generally, authorized lenders include Federal or State
chartered banks, credit unions, insurance companies, savings and loan
associations, Farm Credit Banks or other Farm Credit System institutions with
direct lending authority, a mortgage company that is part of a bank holding
company, and the National Rural Utilities Finance Corporation. Other loan
sources include eligible Rural Utilities Service electric and
telecommunications
borrowers and other lenders approved by RBS who have met the designated
criteria.
Assistance under the B&I Guaranteed Loan Program is available to virtually any
legally organized entity, including a cooperative, corporation, partnership,
trust or other profit or nonprofit entity, Indian tribe or Federally recognized
tribal group, municipality, county, or other political subdivision of a State.
Applicants need not have been denied credit elsewhere to apply for this program.
The maximum aggregate B&I Guaranteed Loan(s) amount that can be offered to any
one borrower under this program is $25 million. A maximum of 10 percent of
program funding is available to value-added cooperative organizations for loans
above $25 million to a maximum aggregate of $40 million.
Obligations by State for 2000 through 2004
Memorandum of Agreement with Colson Services Corporation, a subsidiary of JP
Morgan Chase Bank The agreement will provide greater opportunity for rural
lenders to participate in Rural Development's Business and Industry (B&I)
guaranteed loan program.
Program Administration
The program is administered at the State level by Rural Development State
Offices. To obtain the addresses and telephone numbers of State Offices, visit
the Rural Development Field Office locator. For further information on this
program, please call the State Office servicing your State.
Available online forms can be found at www.sc.egov.usda.gov
Do you know me? Must be. What race am I? Might I not be the same race as
you?

You do know what they say about people who assume?

You did fail to mention which PROGRAM of welfare you qualified for as
welfare from our government. Again, please do! It can only be assumed that
if you are that stupid to think that the government gave you the loan,
versus insuring the loan, you are truly a hindrance on the US.

Your quote of government help to small companies is admirable. What you
fail to realize is that this is a system of grants and guarantees from our
US government, to assist companies to hire people who would otherwise be on
welfare. Or in your case, receiving welfare on a mortgage.

Or are you saying that people who provide for themselves and discredit
others who do not, as racists?
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 05:31:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:08:27 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
You did fail to mention which PROGRAM of welfare you qualified for as
welfare from our government. Again, please do! It can only be assumed that
if you are that stupid to think that the government gave you the loan,
versus insuring the loan, you are truly a hindrance on the US.
You're a boring neocon. Conversation over.
Chris
2005-09-13 05:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:08:27 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
You did fail to mention which PROGRAM of welfare you qualified for as
welfare from our government. Again, please do! It can only be assumed that
if you are that stupid to think that the government gave you the loan,
versus insuring the loan, you are truly a hindrance on the US.
You're a boring neocon. Conversation over.
With that said it can be assumed (from your previous posts), that you are a
foreigner, whom has contributed nothing to this once great country, yet only
want from this country.

It can also be assumed that you are uneducated as you are under the
assumption that your "government loan" actually came from the US government.
You are in fact a pimple on this once great country. Obviously an
uneducated pimple, who relies on others in this country to provide for their
own well being.

BTW please tell us all here in the US which society deems welfare as
acceptable?
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Archangel
2005-09-13 04:32:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:29:40 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Since when is the government handing out loans? Or is this some new welfare
thing I am not aware of?
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
--
Chris
There are two programs I can think of. One is the FHA loan for first time
home buyers, the other is the VHA loan for veterans.
--
Archangel - Jack of all trades, mastering some...

Archangel & RavenSky's personal pages:
http://www.REMhastenslowly.com/

remove the REM... (sleep is over rated)
Chris
2005-09-13 04:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Archangel
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:29:40 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan
that
is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Since when is the government handing out loans? Or is this some new welfare
thing I am not aware of?
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only
in
this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
I am open ears as to what program this is? Better yet what are the
qualifications?
Please do tell!
--
Chris
There are two programs I can think of. One is the FHA loan for first time
home buyers, the other is the VHA loan for veterans.
--
Archangel - Jack of all trades, mastering some...
http://www.REMhastenslowly.com/
remove the REM... (sleep is over rated)
Again these are not loans but insurance for the lenders as provided by our
government. Once again they are not loans but insurance to the lender.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Chris
2005-09-13 06:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:29:40 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Chris"
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by Chris
Post by a***@aol.com
My lender will not finance homes that are on a flood plain.
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most
lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan that is
given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is in
question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry flood
insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think your
broker might be handing you some.
My lender is the US Government.
Since when is the government handing out loans? Or is this some new welfare
thing I am not aware of?
It's not welfare, it's a loan with a low interest rate. Funny how only in this
country "welfare" is a bad word. We are so brainwashed in this country.
Yep it is said how people who work for a living are paying for people who do
not feel like working. I think us working people should work harder to
provide for those who do not to work.

You are free to head off to any country that is not "brainwashed" as we are
on welfare. Before you leave, please let us know what country provides
better welfare, and is not brainwashed.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Glenn Ashmore
2005-09-13 01:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan
that is given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is
in question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry
flood insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I think
your broker might be handing you some.
Most lenders will require that you get Federal Flood insurance if you build
in a flood plane. Either that or you have to put up some other collateral.
Federal Flood Insurance will cover up to $200K in flood damage which usually
means that is the limit of what they will loan.

In southern Louisiana almost 80% of the homes and businesses have Federal
Flood insurance but in Alabama and Mississippi the rate is closer to 15%.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Chris
2005-09-14 04:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Chris
Are we talking a real lender (only a couple of handfuls) or a broker?
Most lenders will lend in a flood zone. They use the 100year flood plan
that is given to them when the property is appraised. If the property is
in question, all that is normally required is the property owner to carry
flood insurance on the property. More common sense than anything. I
think your broker might be handing you some.
Most lenders will require that you get Federal Flood insurance if you
build in a flood plane. Either that or you have to put up some other
collateral. Federal Flood Insurance will cover up to $200K in flood damage
which usually means that is the limit of what they will loan.
In southern Louisiana almost 80% of the homes and businesses have Federal
Flood insurance but in Alabama and Mississippi the rate is closer to 15%.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Glen,
What is Federal flood insurance? I was not aware of that. I was always
under the impression that flood insurance was just a rider on your normal
homeowners insurance. Or could it be that the insurance company is buying
the Federal insurance for you and then making up the difference?

BTW when are you going to update the progress on the boat? I for one am
looking forward to it.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Todd Fatheree
2005-09-14 05:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Glen,
What is Federal flood insurance? I was not aware of that. I was always
under the impression that flood insurance was just a rider on your normal
homeowners insurance. Or could it be that the insurance company is buying
the Federal insurance for you and then making up the difference?
http://www.floodsmart.gov/floodsmart/pages/index.jsp

todd
Glenn Ashmore
2005-09-14 08:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
What is Federal flood insurance? I was not aware of that. I was always
under the impression that flood insurance was just a rider on your normal
homeowners insurance. Or could it be that the insurance company is buying
the Federal insurance for you and then making up the difference?
BTW when are you going to update the progress on the boat? I for one am
looking forward to it.
The normal insurance carriers avoid flood coverage like the plague. To much
risk of large numbers of 100% losses for them to worry about. At one time
you could get a very expensive rider but that ended in 1968 when Congress
passed the National Flood Insurance Program. The NFIP is a government
agency (under FEMA) that issues the policies separate from your homeowner's
policy. FEMA designates flood risk areas and most lenders require a
statement about the flood risk included in the title search. It is one of
that pile of forms you have to sign when you buy a house. If the risk is
high enough the lender will require that you purchase a NFIP policy.

Like the Federal Pension Insurance program, NFIP is under funded and will
probably be insolvent after it settles the Katrina damage.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Chris
2005-09-14 08:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Ashmore
Post by Chris
What is Federal flood insurance? I was not aware of that. I was always
under the impression that flood insurance was just a rider on your normal
homeowners insurance. Or could it be that the insurance company is
buying the Federal insurance for you and then making up the difference?
BTW when are you going to update the progress on the boat? I for one am
looking forward to it.
The normal insurance carriers avoid flood coverage like the plague. To
much risk of large numbers of 100% losses for them to worry about. At one
time you could get a very expensive rider but that ended in 1968 when
Congress passed the National Flood Insurance Program. The NFIP is a
government agency (under FEMA) that issues the policies separate from your
homeowner's policy. FEMA designates flood risk areas and most lenders
require a statement about the flood risk included in the title search. It
is one of that pile of forms you have to sign when you buy a house. If
the risk is high enough the lender will require that you purchase a NFIP
policy.
Like the Federal Pension Insurance program, NFIP is under funded and will
probably be insolvent after it settles the Katrina damage.
--
Glenn Ashmore
Glenn and Todd,

Thanks for the info. Obviously you helped me understand an area that I am
obviously ignorant in. I did know that lenders do require the insurance if
you were in a flood plane, now at least I know where it comes from.

I will have to check to see if I did sign the form. Yet again another
mystery of the "closing" pile of paperwork solved. :)

Thanks again,
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Post by Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
Glenn Ashmore
2005-09-14 15:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
I will have to check to see if I did sign the form. Yet again another
mystery of the "closing" pile of paperwork solved. :)
Has anyone noticed that every single piece of paper that you have to sign
when you buy a piece of real estate or take out a lone has the words
"Complies with the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995"?

Before that law was passed you only had to sign the note, the mortgage and a
guarantee. My brother and I just sold a warehouse. At the closing I had to
sign 28 different papers and the buyers had to sign more than 30. More
trees cut for the closing papers than there were to build the building.
Everybody form the EPA to FEMA has to get a piece of paper these days.
--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
steve
2005-09-12 19:23:54 UTC
Permalink
sounds like people who had flood insurance will be compensated for
flood damage and people who don't won't
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-09-12 21:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
sounds like people who had flood insurance will be compensated for
flood damage and people who don't won't
as it should be. damn well better not pay out for coverage that
wasn't bought just to look good. we'll all pay for that.
Tim May
2005-09-13 00:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Post by steve
sounds like people who had flood insurance will be compensated for
flood damage and people who don't won't
as it should be. damn well better not pay out for coverage that
wasn't bought just to look good. we'll all pay for that.
And the politicians who do that will pay for it, one way or another.


--Tim May
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-13 11:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Post by steve
sounds like people who had flood insurance will be compensated for
flood damage and people who don't won't
as it should be. damn well better not pay out for coverage that
wasn't bought just to look good. we'll all pay for that.
In all likelihood, someone will pay. What I suspect will happen is the
uninsured will be given the option of taking on a low interest loan
that's sponsored by FEMA. A lot of people will go bankrupt. Property
will go abandoned and decline. Then for the property that goes
untouched, but needs repair, eventually local residents will get upset
when those properties become problems, so they'll pressure government to
come in and fix the problem, so eventually, taxpayers will foot the
bill. Its just a question of how long the unrepaired properties will be
allowed to fall into further disrepair before government takes over
those properties and rehabs them or demolishes them.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-09-14 14:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Post by steve
sounds like people who had flood insurance will be compensated for
flood damage and people who don't won't
as it should be. damn well better not pay out for coverage that
wasn't bought just to look good. we'll all pay for that.
In all likelihood, someone will pay. What I suspect will happen is the
uninsured will be given the option of taking on a low interest loan
that's sponsored by FEMA. A lot of people will go bankrupt. Property
will go abandoned and decline. Then for the property that goes
untouched, but needs repair, eventually local residents will get upset
when those properties become problems, so they'll pressure
government to
Post by Shawn Hirn
come in and fix the problem, so eventually, taxpayers will foot the
bill. Its just a question of how long the unrepaired properties will be
allowed to fall into further disrepair before government takes over
those properties and rehabs them or demolishes them.
isn't there some sort of law that says that if you live in a flood
zone and your house floods, you won't be allowed to build there again?
thought it passed sometime in the 90s.
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-14 16:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
isn't there some sort of law that says that if you live in a flood
zone and your house floods, you won't be allowed to build there again?
thought it passed sometime in the 90s.
Perhaps, but if that were the case, no one would be talking about
rebuilding New Orleans, would they?
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-09-14 20:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
isn't there some sort of law that says that if you live in a flood
zone and your house floods, you won't be allowed to build there again?
thought it passed sometime in the 90s.
Perhaps, but if that were the case, no one would be talking about
rebuilding New Orleans, would they?
well, they are considering raising it higher first.
r***@hotmail.com
2005-09-14 21:07:52 UTC
Permalink
AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

well, they are considering raising it higher first.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RElly?
Did you pass even 5th grade math?
If so please demonstrate how many cubic yards of fill
willl be requried. then look at the carry capacity of even
a large barge. Divide the first by the later and see just
how many thosand barge loads of fill you will need.

All the time staying aware that NO will contiue to sink.
Fill all you want, it will need refilling every few decades.
The main leason to be learned from this is to NOT live
below sea level.Or if you do, don't bitch when the levee
breaks.

Hint: look up sediment. The Mississippi used to cary new
fill with every spring flood. We built the levees and stoped
that. So the place started sinking, and we built the levees
even higher. More sinkage, higher levees. It had been
sinking before, but with the new fill every spring to sinking
was not apparent.

Building below sea level turns out to be a really BAD idea
in hindsight. Yes the Dutch do it but I think everyone can accept
that they are better sutied, IE less corrupt, then the people in LA
in general and NO in spcific.

Terry
Logan Shaw
2005-09-15 01:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
well, they are considering raising it higher first.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RElly?
Did you pass even 5th grade math?
If so please demonstrate how many cubic yards of fill
willl be requried. then look at the carry capacity of even
a large barge. Divide the first by the later and see just
how many thosand barge loads of fill you will need.
Well, first of all, it has been done before. 150 years ago,
Chicago raised street level by several feet due to flooding,
and they did this by bringing in a lot of dirt.

Second, let's consider how much dirt is actually needed. A
reasonable starting point would be the same volume of dirt
as the volume of flood water that the Army Corps of Engineers
is having to pump out. (If you filled all the areas that were
flooded with dirt, there would be nowhere for the water to
flood into, right?)

Figures on flow rate and time until completion are available
on the Army Corps of Engineers' web site, at
http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/katrina/pumps/pumps.html .

Based on these figures, it seems the flooded areas can be broken
into 3 groups. The first group will take about 28 days to pump
out, the second will take 34, and the third will take 44 days.
And based on that and the estimated time of completion of pumping
this water out and current flow rates (which I assume do NOT
reflect possible future increases in pump capacity), it seems
that there is about 51 billion cubic feet of water to pump out.

Sanity checking that number, wikipedia.org says the land area
of New Orleans is about 180.6 square miles, and if you filled
that all with 15 feet of water, that would give you 75 billion
cubic feet of water. So, it seems like the right ballpark.

Based on some data from googling, it seems like a fairly large
barge can hold about 100,000 or maybe 200,000 cubic feet of
stuff. So, that would be perhaps 250,000 to 500,000 barge trips.
Which does seem like a lot.

But, there could be another way. You could build a pipeline designed
to carry mud, pump it in, and let it dry out naturally (or using
the existing pumps that are designed to keep the area dry). The
technology to build a mud pipeline seems to already exist:

http://ceres.ca.gov/biodiv/newsletter/v2n4/v2n4_mfischimg.html

Maybe a good comparison is the Kansai Airport near Osaka, Japan,
which is built entirely on landfill out in the middle of a bay.
wikipedia.org says that it required 21 million cubic meters of
landfill, equates to about 740 million cubic feet.

So, filling the flooded parts of New Orleans would require about
70 times as much landfill as building Kansai Airport. That's a
lot, but it's not outside the realm of possibility if a more
efficient method of delivering it is developed.
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
All the time staying aware that NO will contiue to sink.
Fill all you want, it will need refilling every few decades.
Well, what I've heard is that the city has sunk because the
below-ground water has been pumped out. But does that mean
it will continue to sink? It might or it might not. No matter
what, it's obvious that the probability of it sinking is quite
good, so that's a risk that would have to be taken into account,
no matter what scheme for "fixing" New Orleans is chosen, if any.
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Hint: look up sediment. The Mississippi used to cary new
fill with every spring flood. We built the levees and stoped
that. So the place started sinking, and we built the levees
even higher. More sinkage, higher levees. It had been
sinking before, but with the new fill every spring to sinking
was not apparent.
I agree that the loss of new sediment is a problem. Perhaps the
ultimate solution (other than just not rebuilding) would be to
find a way to continue to let the sediment in. With regular small,
controlled floods where the water level only reaches 1 ft or
something, it seems like you could get sediment in there without
causing major damage. You'd then have the small matter of what
to do with buildings that move downward relative to street level
as the ground is continually built up, year after year. That
problem could be solved, I'm sure, but you'd need a whole new
type of building.

Personally, I tend to wonder if the most practical solution isn't
going to involve just building really, really, hugely, massively
big levees and continuing to add on to them every decade. It
looks like the levees they have now are on the order of 25 or
50 ft high maybe 50 to 100 ft wide. I don't see why you couldn't
build levees that are more like 75 ft high and as wide as you
want them, even as wide as 500 ft. If you build them wide enough,
you can use the land on top of them for a major road, so the space
is not wasted. And the wider you make them, the lower the chance
they will be breached. Anyway, as I understand it, mostly it
wasn't the levees that failed but the concrete flood walls on top
of the levees. I'm not a civil engineer, but the implication to
me is that if they had built levees as high as the flood walls
reached instead of building flood walls on top of the levees,
the levees would not have failed.

- Logan
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-15 05:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Logan Shaw
Post by AllEmailDeletedImmediately
well, they are considering raising it higher first.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RElly?
Did you pass even 5th grade math?
If so please demonstrate how many cubic yards of fill
willl be requried. then look at the carry capacity of even
a large barge. Divide the first by the later and see just
how many thosand barge loads of fill you will need.
Well, first of all, it has been done before. 150 years ago,
Chicago raised street level by several feet due to flooding,
and they did this by bringing in a lot of dirt.
Second, let's consider how much dirt is actually needed. A
reasonable starting point would be the same volume of dirt
as the volume of flood water that the Army Corps of Engineers
is having to pump out. (If you filled all the areas that were
flooded with dirt, there would be nowhere for the water to
flood into, right?)
Dirt washes away. Dirt also absorbs water.
Post by Logan Shaw
Figures on flow rate and time until completion are available
on the Army Corps of Engineers' web site, at
http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/katrina/pumps/pumps.html .
Based on these figures, it seems the flooded areas can be broken
into 3 groups. The first group will take about 28 days to pump
out, the second will take 34, and the third will take 44 days.
And based on that and the estimated time of completion of pumping
this water out and current flow rates (which I assume do NOT
reflect possible future increases in pump capacity), it seems
that there is about 51 billion cubic feet of water to pump out.
Sanity checking that number, wikipedia.org says the land area
of New Orleans is about 180.6 square miles, and if you filled
that all with 15 feet of water, that would give you 75 billion
cubic feet of water. So, it seems like the right ballpark.
Based on some data from googling, it seems like a fairly large
barge can hold about 100,000 or maybe 200,000 cubic feet of
stuff. So, that would be perhaps 250,000 to 500,000 barge trips.
Which does seem like a lot.
But, there could be another way. You could build a pipeline designed
to carry mud, pump it in, and let it dry out naturally (or using
the existing pumps that are designed to keep the area dry). The
http://ceres.ca.gov/biodiv/newsletter/v2n4/v2n4_mfischimg.html
Maybe a good comparison is the Kansai Airport near Osaka, Japan,
which is built entirely on landfill out in the middle of a bay.
wikipedia.org says that it required 21 million cubic meters of
landfill, equates to about 740 million cubic feet.
You left out a little detail in your analysis. That airport is sinking.
Too_Many_Tools
2005-09-13 00:44:51 UTC
Permalink
I agree with the general discussion but...

I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.

Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?

Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.

That is a significant number of votes.

TMT
Todd Fatheree
2005-09-13 01:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
That would mean that 60% of the properties (assuming we're talking about
homes in flood plain, which I appears to include all of coastal LA and MS)
are free and clear of any mortgage or other lien (home equity loan, home
equity line of credit). No lender would have a lien on a home in flood
plain without requiring flood insurance. Maybe that number is correct, but
it sounds high to me.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
Sure it is. For people in LA and MS. I don't know how much pressure those
homeless can exert on our fine senators here in Illinois.

todd
Chris
2005-09-13 01:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Fatheree
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
That would mean that 60% of the properties (assuming we're talking about
homes in flood plain, which I appears to include all of coastal LA and MS)
are free and clear of any mortgage or other lien (home equity loan, home
equity line of credit). No lender would have a lien on a home in flood
plain without requiring flood insurance. Maybe that number is correct, but
it sounds high to me.
Post by Too_Many_Tools
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
Sure it is. For people in LA and MS. I don't know how much pressure those
homeless can exert on our fine senators here in Illinois.
todd
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Nick Hull
2005-09-13 03:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Chris
2005-09-13 04:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
That too!!!! :)
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-13 11:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
You mean, like all those people who're supposedly fighting for our
freedom in Iraq and Afgahnistan? What about government contractors too?
Teachers? Librarians? Nah! I saw, just have an IQ test to vote. Anyone
over 120 gets to vote, which would probably leave out most of the people
who are commenting in this thread, including possibly me, and also most
of congress, and the guy in the White House. I am joking.
Pope Secola VI
2005-09-13 13:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
You mean, like all those people who're supposedly fighting for our
freedom in Iraq and Afgahnistan? What about government contractors too?
Teachers? Librarians? Nah! I saw, just have an IQ test to vote. Anyone
over 120 gets to vote, which would probably leave out most of the people
who are commenting in this thread, including possibly me, and also most
of congress, and the guy in the White House. I am joking.
Actually it's not the government employees voting that I object to but
the formation of Public Employee Unions that extorts, (You have to pay
the union even if you aren't a member), billions of dollars from public
employees and funds the crack pots (Democrats).
--
There are in fact two things, Science and opinion,
the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.

Hippocrates
467-377 B.C.
SoCalMike
2005-09-14 06:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pope Secola VI
Actually it's not the government employees voting that I object to but
the formation of Public Employee Unions that extorts, (You have to pay
the union even if you aren't a member), billions of dollars from public
employees and funds the crack pots (Democrats).
theyd fund the republicans, too... if the republicans would support em.

no different than all the oil money going to bush and his friends, and
bush giving them sweet subsidies.
Nick Hull
2005-09-14 00:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
You mean, like all those people who're supposedly fighting for our
freedom in Iraq and Afgahnistan?........
I don't see those troops supporting or defending OUR Constitution or our
Bill of Rights. They are supporting politicians and big government.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Richard Johnson
2005-09-14 00:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government.
As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
You mean, like all those people who're supposedly fighting for our
freedom in Iraq and Afgahnistan?........
I don't see those troops supporting or defending OUR Constitution or our
Bill of Rights. They are supporting politicians and big government.
Would you care to personnaly deny their right to vote? (I think you would
find yourself in deeeeep sh*t.)
Chris
2005-09-14 01:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Johnson
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government.
As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Likewise government 'workers' should not be allowed to vote.
You mean, like all those people who're supposedly fighting for our
freedom in Iraq and Afgahnistan?........
I don't see those troops supporting or defending OUR Constitution or our
Bill of Rights. They are supporting politicians and big government.
Would you care to personnaly deny their right to vote? (I think you would
find yourself in deeeeep sh*t.)
I think this has been done a number of times.

I do remember being stationed overseas and twice the absentee ballots
arrived in the mail after the formal voting was done. Not just a single
event but across the post. Of course your vote still counted, but did not
really seem to matter all that much after the fact.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-13 11:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Fortunately, you are not in charge. Our government got rid of that
draconian policy ages ago. If democracy bothers you, there are plenty of
countries where you can happily live under a dictatorship. Perhaps we
could limit voting on to those who know this country's history, but that
would clearly let you out.
Anthony Matonak
2005-09-13 15:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Fortunately, you are not in charge. Our government got rid of that
draconian policy ages ago. If democracy bothers you, there are plenty of
countries where you can happily live under a dictatorship. Perhaps we
could limit voting on to those who know this country's history, but that
would clearly let you out.
There is a difference between a dictatorship and a republic where
only the rich get a vote. Poor people wouldn't see much difference
but rich people would.

I'm coming to the opinion that everyone in the country (including
those born here) should pass the same kind of citizenship tests
and swear the same kind of oaths that immigrants must in order to
obtain the rights of citizenship. It seems odd to have two standards.

Anthony
Nick Hull
2005-09-14 00:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Fortunately, you are not in charge. Our government got rid of that
draconian policy ages ago. If democracy bothers you, there are plenty of
countries where you can happily live under a dictatorship. Perhaps we
could limit voting on to those who know this country's history, but that
would clearly let you out.
This is the American Republic, not the american denocracy. Those of us
who wish to restore the Republic will not move, but will wage civil war
at the correct time. You are welcome to take the opposite side if you
choose, voting will be by bullets. ;)
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Chris
2005-09-14 00:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Fortunately, you are not in charge. Our government got rid of that
draconian policy ages ago. If democracy bothers you, there are plenty of
countries where you can happily live under a dictatorship. Perhaps we
could limit voting on to those who know this country's history, but that
would clearly let you out.
This is the American Republic, not the american denocracy. Those of us
who wish to restore the Republic will not move, but will wage civil war
at the correct time. You are welcome to take the opposite side if you
choose, voting will be by bullets. ;)
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Too funny. :)


Do remember too that when this civil war breaks out, which side the veterans
will be on! They have a tendency not to want to leave this country. Go
figure.

I think a better voter would be one that knows this is a Republic, knows the
true history, and has done something for this country. Of course this would
leave out all the liberals.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-14 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
Most of the people homeless now, and asking for hand-outs would of probably
been homeless before the mess, had it not been for our government. As a
law, it should be imposed that people on welfare should not be allowed to
vote.
Fortunately, you are not in charge. Our government got rid of that
draconian policy ages ago. If democracy bothers you, there are plenty of
countries where you can happily live under a dictatorship. Perhaps we
could limit voting on to those who know this country's history, but that
would clearly let you out.
This is the American Republic, not the american denocracy. Those of us
who wish to restore the Republic will not move, but will wage civil war
at the correct time. You are welcome to take the opposite side if you
choose, voting will be by bullets. ;)
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Too funny. :)
Do remember too that when this civil war breaks out, which side the veterans
will be on! They have a tendency not to want to leave this country. Go
figure.
I think a better voter would be one that knows this is a Republic, knows the
true history, and has done something for this country. Of course this would
leave out all the liberals.
What a crock! I am a liberal and I well understand this country's
history. Although I was born at a time where I was either too young to
serve in a war or too old, but most of the veterans I know are liberal
and risked their lives serving in the military in Korea, Vietnam, or
during WW II and have worked hard all their lives paying taxes and
contributing in various ways toward society. Further, some of the
wealthiest Americans are liberal.

Your comments speak loudly to the fact that you have no clue what you're
talking about. Your claim to be a font of knowledge of American history
is at best, dubious, given your silly statements about liberals.

We are a Representative Republic, but I have heard many people, both
conservatives and liberals deny that fact.
Tim May
2005-09-13 01:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
And that is precisely why we are a nation of laws, not of pimping for
votes.

Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.

--Tim May
Chris
2005-09-13 01:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
And that is precisely why we are a nation of laws, not of pimping for
votes.
Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.
--Tim May
Tim,

Well said!!!

If I remember correctly when we had a Constitution, the federal government
was set up to protect the US from foreign interests. Not to provide a roof
over our head and food to those who did not feel like providing ourselves.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-13 10:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
And that is precisely why we are a nation of laws, not of pimping for
votes.
Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.
--Tim May
Tim,
Well said!!!
If I remember correctly when we had a Constitution, the federal government
was set up to protect the US from foreign interests. Not to provide a roof
over our head and food to those who did not feel like providing ourselves.
Your memory is a bit incomplete. The major goal by ratifying the
Constitution was to keep government out of the private lives of
individuals. Protection from foreign governments was part of it.
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
Duane Bozarth
2005-09-13 13:35:06 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
If I remember correctly when we had a Constitution, the federal government
was set up to protect the US from foreign interests. Not to provide a roof
over our head and food to those who did not feel like providing ourselves.
Your memory is a bit incomplete. The major goal by ratifying the
Constitution was to keep government out of the private lives of
individuals. Protection from foreign governments was part of it.
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
I think your reading is "a little" incomplete and selective, too... :)

Probably the major reason (other than the obvious one that the
Constitution isn't the place for policy) such a prohibition wasn't
mentioned was that it would have been considered ludicrous to think such
could be expected of government.
h***@hotmail.com
2005-09-13 17:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duane Bozarth
Post by Shawn Hirn
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
I think your reading is "a little" incomplete and selective, too... :)
Probably the major reason (other than the obvious one that the
Constitution isn't the place for policy) such a prohibition wasn't
mentioned was that it would have been considered ludicrous to think such
could be expected of government.
The founding fathers couldn't have had any idea of what was to come.
Here is a quick summary of some aspects of the issue through the
years. There are many factors that I don't include, for sake of
brevity. I only report that it appears each action, each step taken
in years past, was taken in response to an immediate problem with the
poor, and applied as a corrective measure. Loosely speaking, each
step was an improvement over the situation it corrected. We live with
the cumulative effect of those actions.

Any "welfare" back at the time of the founding of the nation was the
responsibility of the families and towns. The idea of "Federalism"
didn't take root until later, so there wasn't even a "strong" Federal
government to begin with, and hence the welfare of the poor wasn't an
issue that the founding fathers would see any reason to address.

Typically back then, there was a "poor-house" or a "poor-farm." A
local resident or farmer bid on the care of the town indigent, and
those people lived at that farm or house at the community expense,
often working labor-intensive lives to help pay for their keep,
sometimes living in reasonable conditions, other times in deplorable
conditions. The ill died. Families who allowed relatives to be put
in the poor-house were looked down upon or seen as desperately poor.
Nobody particularly liked the poorhouse system. None of this
addresses how slaves (who were by definition poor) were treated, which
is another issue not directly noted by the founding fathers.

In the 1800's most states realized the centralization of the ill and
mentally incompetent made more sense, by providing for the funds to
allow the availability of a doctor and removing the most costly and
burdensome people from the poor-farm systems. The towns paid for the
cost of the patients in the state hospitals.

Over time, the laws were changed to take the responsibility of
poor-farms and welfare of the ill and indigent away from the towns and
move it to the state. Why? Because inspectors from the states were
regularly seeing and reporting an inconsistency of care and squalid
conditions that were unconscionable, and towns were bemoaning the cost
of caring for the poor, especially when minimum standards were set by
the states. That shift led to the state funded welfare systems.

Later, the same thing happened on a Federal level - some states were
infamous for their horrendous treatment of the poor and mentally ill,
and costs were rising above the level where states could support their
systems.

The great depression forced the Federal government to feed huge
numbers of people and find work for them, or let them starve. The
states didn't have the money, and by then only the Federal government
could make money or hold the bonds needed to fund such a massive
undertaking. A Federal approach to welfare became institutionalized.

The rules of the WPA camps served to set in the nation's mind the
rules for "acceptable" welfare. A bed and food would be given for a
man's hard week's work, and a portion of his earnings would be sent
off to support his wife and children. That model simply never fit
many situations, but it became the standard.

This worked in general for the whites, but even then most blacks in
the south still lived in third-world conditions, serving the whites as
de facto slaves and getting minimal wages, or living on sharecropper
and subsistence farms. The great depression meant more starving for
them, but didn't change their lifestyle to any great extent.

World War II and Korea saw the integration of blacks and whites in the
military. This wasn't out of any great social equality movement, but
based in practicality and necessity. The forces for integration were
beginning to come to a boil as blacks saw how well this worked and Jim
Crow laws became more blatantly unequal. Blacks remained in abject
poverty while the whites began to take part in the post-war recovery.

That poverty and white bigotry eventually drove blacks into open
rebellion. State laws enforcing oppression were openly violated and
John F. Kennedy was forced to take action against the governments of
Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and other Jim Crow states or take up
arms against churches and a group that could legitimately say that
they had tried to reach equality through peaceful means.

In conjunction with the success of the civil rights movement and a big
new block of voters who had shown perseverance, organization, and
willingness to act against the established society, Lyndon Johnson and
the democrats began the "great society." Johnson understood the
power of the black vote and the unifying power that systematic
oppression had provided. That power had not been stopped by further
oppression, but needed to be blunted at any expense at that time to
avert race wars and national crisis.

This "Great Society" experiment funded the poorest of the poor to lift
them out of militant despair, but it broke apart families, partly by
declaring black men who couldn't find work in a still racist society
to be welfare cheats, while allowing unwed mothers to get aid from the
government.

This welfare dole partly defused the explosive power of the black
political community, with the exception of the black panthers and some
radical elements, but had the hugely negative effect of splitting many
black families and encouraging a dual system of matriarchy for the
women and young children, and a more feral life on the streets for
black men. It also gave bigots a convenient hitching post for
bigotry. They could say they were no longer racist, but that they
hated welfare cheats.

Many black men who needed a way out of that situation saw the military
as an alternative. Coincidentally? Johnson was also ramping up the
Vietnam War, which coincidentally? diverted attention from the race
issues, provided work for black men, and sucked money out of the
Soviet Union.

The societal situations of a fragmented family system, racism, and
exporting of black role models to Vietnam worked to increase the
incidence of crime in the black communities, decrease the desire for
education, and perpetuated and even enflamed the stereotype of the
black man as a worthless criminal.

Whereas the early immigrants, such as the Irish, Italians, Poles, and
others had the advantage of strong family ties that were encouraged by
the system, the blacks, who had earlier experienced families ripped
apart by slavery and were now thwarted in forming stronger family and
community bonds, were largely driven into even more institutionalized
poverty.

Ultimately, the street life of many black males became such a mark of
fraternal brotherhood, that even the worst aspects of that life began
to be celebrated within that group.

What had been a simple division of racism and poverty had been
transformed by the 1960s into a division of culture that has now been
largely accepted as "the way things are." The extremes of Colin
Powell, gangsta rappers, and an underbelly of sometimes peaceful,
sometimes violent poor in New Orleans are all part of that heritage.
The thinly veiled hatred and bigotry by large groups of both blacks
and whites still exists. I'm not saying it is the case here, but
often that veil is made up of the whole cloth of a dislike of "welfare
recipients," while ignoring any possible solutions to the historical
enforced poverty of an entire segment of society.

Taken in that context, I found the casual mention of the actions of
the various "cultures" and especially those of the New Orleans police
in the following story fascinating.

<http://lonestar-mvpa.org/events/2005/05_Katrina.htm>
a***@aol.com
2005-09-13 19:04:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:01:38 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Duane Bozarth
Post by Shawn Hirn
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
I think your reading is "a little" incomplete and selective, too... :)
Probably the major reason (other than the obvious one that the
Constitution isn't the place for policy) such a prohibition wasn't
mentioned was that it would have been considered ludicrous to think such
could be expected of government.
The founding fathers couldn't have had any idea of what was to come.
Here is a quick summary of some aspects of the issue through the
years. There are many factors that I don't include, for sake of
brevity. I only report that it appears each action, each step taken
in years past, was taken in response to an immediate problem with the
poor, and applied as a corrective measure. Loosely speaking, each
step was an improvement over the situation it corrected. We live with
the cumulative effect of those actions.
Any "welfare" back at the time of the founding of the nation was the
responsibility of the families and towns. The idea of "Federalism"
didn't take root until later, so there wasn't even a "strong" Federal
government to begin with, and hence the welfare of the poor wasn't an
issue that the founding fathers would see any reason to address.
Typically back then, there was a "poor-house" or a "poor-farm." A
local resident or farmer bid on the care of the town indigent, and
those people lived at that farm or house at the community expense,
often working labor-intensive lives to help pay for their keep,
sometimes living in reasonable conditions, other times in deplorable
conditions. The ill died. Families who allowed relatives to be put
in the poor-house were looked down upon or seen as desperately poor.
Nobody particularly liked the poorhouse system. None of this
addresses how slaves (who were by definition poor) were treated, which
is another issue not directly noted by the founding fathers.
In the 1800's most states realized the centralization of the ill and
mentally incompetent made more sense, by providing for the funds to
allow the availability of a doctor and removing the most costly and
burdensome people from the poor-farm systems. The towns paid for the
cost of the patients in the state hospitals.
Over time, the laws were changed to take the responsibility of
poor-farms and welfare of the ill and indigent away from the towns and
move it to the state. Why? Because inspectors from the states were
regularly seeing and reporting an inconsistency of care and squalid
conditions that were unconscionable, and towns were bemoaning the cost
of caring for the poor, especially when minimum standards were set by
the states. That shift led to the state funded welfare systems.
Later, the same thing happened on a Federal level - some states were
infamous for their horrendous treatment of the poor and mentally ill,
and costs were rising above the level where states could support their
systems.
The great depression forced the Federal government to feed huge
numbers of people and find work for them, or let them starve. The
states didn't have the money, and by then only the Federal government
could make money or hold the bonds needed to fund such a massive
undertaking. A Federal approach to welfare became institutionalized.
The rules of the WPA camps served to set in the nation's mind the
rules for "acceptable" welfare. A bed and food would be given for a
man's hard week's work, and a portion of his earnings would be sent
off to support his wife and children. That model simply never fit
many situations, but it became the standard.
This worked in general for the whites, but even then most blacks in
the south still lived in third-world conditions, serving the whites as
de facto slaves and getting minimal wages, or living on sharecropper
and subsistence farms. The great depression meant more starving for
them, but didn't change their lifestyle to any great extent.
World War II and Korea saw the integration of blacks and whites in the
military. This wasn't out of any great social equality movement, but
based in practicality and necessity. The forces for integration were
beginning to come to a boil as blacks saw how well this worked and Jim
Crow laws became more blatantly unequal. Blacks remained in abject
poverty while the whites began to take part in the post-war recovery.
That poverty and white bigotry eventually drove blacks into open
rebellion. State laws enforcing oppression were openly violated and
John F. Kennedy was forced to take action against the governments of
Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and other Jim Crow states or take up
arms against churches and a group that could legitimately say that
they had tried to reach equality through peaceful means.
In conjunction with the success of the civil rights movement and a big
new block of voters who had shown perseverance, organization, and
willingness to act against the established society, Lyndon Johnson and
the democrats began the "great society." Johnson understood the
power of the black vote and the unifying power that systematic
oppression had provided. That power had not been stopped by further
oppression, but needed to be blunted at any expense at that time to
avert race wars and national crisis.
This "Great Society" experiment funded the poorest of the poor to lift
them out of militant despair, but it broke apart families, partly by
declaring black men who couldn't find work in a still racist society
to be welfare cheats, while allowing unwed mothers to get aid from the
government.
This welfare dole partly defused the explosive power of the black
political community, with the exception of the black panthers and some
radical elements, but had the hugely negative effect of splitting many
black families and encouraging a dual system of matriarchy for the
women and young children, and a more feral life on the streets for
black men. It also gave bigots a convenient hitching post for
bigotry. They could say they were no longer racist, but that they
hated welfare cheats.
Many black men who needed a way out of that situation saw the military
as an alternative. Coincidentally? Johnson was also ramping up the
Vietnam War, which coincidentally? diverted attention from the race
issues, provided work for black men, and sucked money out of the
Soviet Union.
The societal situations of a fragmented family system, racism, and
exporting of black role models to Vietnam worked to increase the
incidence of crime in the black communities, decrease the desire for
education, and perpetuated and even enflamed the stereotype of the
black man as a worthless criminal.
Whereas the early immigrants, such as the Irish, Italians, Poles, and
others had the advantage of strong family ties that were encouraged by
the system, the blacks, who had earlier experienced families ripped
apart by slavery and were now thwarted in forming stronger family and
community bonds, were largely driven into even more institutionalized
poverty.
Ultimately, the street life of many black males became such a mark of
fraternal brotherhood, that even the worst aspects of that life began
to be celebrated within that group.
What had been a simple division of racism and poverty had been
transformed by the 1960s into a division of culture that has now been
largely accepted as "the way things are." The extremes of Colin
Powell, gangsta rappers, and an underbelly of sometimes peaceful,
sometimes violent poor in New Orleans are all part of that heritage.
The thinly veiled hatred and bigotry by large groups of both blacks
and whites still exists. I'm not saying it is the case here, but
often that veil is made up of the whole cloth of a dislike of "welfare
recipients," while ignoring any possible solutions to the historical
enforced poverty of an entire segment of society.
Taken in that context, I found the casual mention of the actions of
the various "cultures" and especially those of the New Orleans police
in the following story fascinating.
<http://lonestar-mvpa.org/events/2005/05_Katrina.htm>
Interesting stuff. In England citizens do not look down on welfare like they do
in the US. The citizens tend to take the view that their parents and
grandparents paid into the system and it's ok for them to take some of it in
times of need.

I never realized that racism is part of the reason that some folks in the US
look down on welfare.
Rod Speed
2005-09-13 19:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:01:38 GMT, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Duane Bozarth
Post by Shawn Hirn
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some
limits on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell,
nor has any congress since than or president put forth an
amendment to do that.
I think your reading is "a little" incomplete and selective, too... :)
Probably the major reason (other than the obvious one that the
Constitution isn't the place for policy) such a prohibition wasn't
mentioned was that it would have been considered ludicrous to think
such could be expected of government.
The founding fathers couldn't have had any idea of what was to come.
Here is a quick summary of some aspects of the issue through the
years. There are many factors that I don't include, for sake of
brevity. I only report that it appears each action, each step taken
in years past, was taken in response to an immediate problem with the
poor, and applied as a corrective measure. Loosely speaking, each
step was an improvement over the situation it corrected. We live
with the cumulative effect of those actions.
Any "welfare" back at the time of the founding of the nation was the
responsibility of the families and towns. The idea of "Federalism"
didn't take root until later, so there wasn't even a "strong" Federal
government to begin with, and hence the welfare of the poor wasn't an
issue that the founding fathers would see any reason to address.
Typically back then, there was a "poor-house" or a "poor-farm." A
local resident or farmer bid on the care of the town indigent, and
those people lived at that farm or house at the community expense,
often working labor-intensive lives to help pay for their keep,
sometimes living in reasonable conditions, other times in deplorable
conditions. The ill died. Families who allowed relatives to be put
in the poor-house were looked down upon or seen as desperately poor.
Nobody particularly liked the poorhouse system. None of this
addresses how slaves (who were by definition poor) were treated,
which is another issue not directly noted by the founding fathers.
In the 1800's most states realized the centralization of the ill and
mentally incompetent made more sense, by providing for the funds to
allow the availability of a doctor and removing the most costly and
burdensome people from the poor-farm systems. The towns paid for the
cost of the patients in the state hospitals.
Over time, the laws were changed to take the responsibility of
poor-farms and welfare of the ill and indigent away from the towns
and move it to the state. Why? Because inspectors from the states
were regularly seeing and reporting an inconsistency of care and
squalid conditions that were unconscionable, and towns were
bemoaning the cost of caring for the poor, especially when minimum
standards were set by the states. That shift led to the state
funded welfare systems.
Later, the same thing happened on a Federal level - some states were
infamous for their horrendous treatment of the poor and mentally ill,
and costs were rising above the level where states could support
their systems.
The great depression forced the Federal government to feed huge
numbers of people and find work for them, or let them starve. The
states didn't have the money, and by then only the Federal government
could make money or hold the bonds needed to fund such a massive
undertaking. A Federal approach to welfare became institutionalized.
The rules of the WPA camps served to set in the nation's mind the
rules for "acceptable" welfare. A bed and food would be given for a
man's hard week's work, and a portion of his earnings would be sent
off to support his wife and children. That model simply never fit
many situations, but it became the standard.
This worked in general for the whites, but even then most blacks in
the south still lived in third-world conditions, serving the whites
as de facto slaves and getting minimal wages, or living on
sharecropper and subsistence farms. The great depression meant more
starving for them, but didn't change their lifestyle to any great
extent.
World War II and Korea saw the integration of blacks and whites in
the military. This wasn't out of any great social equality
movement, but based in practicality and necessity. The forces for
integration were beginning to come to a boil as blacks saw how well
this worked and Jim Crow laws became more blatantly unequal.
Blacks remained in abject poverty while the whites began to take
part in the post-war recovery.
That poverty and white bigotry eventually drove blacks into open
rebellion. State laws enforcing oppression were openly violated and
John F. Kennedy was forced to take action against the governments of
Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and other Jim Crow states or take up
arms against churches and a group that could legitimately say that
they had tried to reach equality through peaceful means.
In conjunction with the success of the civil rights movement and a
big new block of voters who had shown perseverance, organization, and
willingness to act against the established society, Lyndon Johnson
and the democrats began the "great society." Johnson understood the
power of the black vote and the unifying power that systematic
oppression had provided. That power had not been stopped by further
oppression, but needed to be blunted at any expense at that time to
avert race wars and national crisis.
This "Great Society" experiment funded the poorest of the poor to
lift them out of militant despair, but it broke apart families,
partly by declaring black men who couldn't find work in a still
racist society to be welfare cheats, while allowing unwed mothers to
get aid from the government.
This welfare dole partly defused the explosive power of the black
political community, with the exception of the black panthers and
some radical elements, but had the hugely negative effect of
splitting many black families and encouraging a dual system of
matriarchy for the women and young children, and a more feral life
on the streets for black men. It also gave bigots a convenient
hitching post for bigotry. They could say they were no longer
racist, but that they hated welfare cheats.
Many black men who needed a way out of that situation saw the
military as an alternative. Coincidentally? Johnson was also
ramping up the Vietnam War, which coincidentally? diverted attention
from the race issues, provided work for black men, and sucked money
out of the Soviet Union.
The societal situations of a fragmented family system, racism, and
exporting of black role models to Vietnam worked to increase the
incidence of crime in the black communities, decrease the desire for
education, and perpetuated and even enflamed the stereotype of the
black man as a worthless criminal.
Whereas the early immigrants, such as the Irish, Italians, Poles, and
others had the advantage of strong family ties that were encouraged
by the system, the blacks, who had earlier experienced families
ripped apart by slavery and were now thwarted in forming stronger
family and community bonds, were largely driven into even more
institutionalized poverty.
Ultimately, the street life of many black males became such a mark of
fraternal brotherhood, that even the worst aspects of that life began
to be celebrated within that group.
What had been a simple division of racism and poverty had been
transformed by the 1960s into a division of culture that has now been
largely accepted as "the way things are." The extremes of Colin
Powell, gangsta rappers, and an underbelly of sometimes peaceful,
sometimes violent poor in New Orleans are all part of that heritage.
The thinly veiled hatred and bigotry by large groups of both blacks
and whites still exists. I'm not saying it is the case here, but
often that veil is made up of the whole cloth of a dislike of
"welfare recipients," while ignoring any possible solutions to the
historical enforced poverty of an entire segment of society.
Taken in that context, I found the casual mention of the actions of
the various "cultures" and especially those of the New Orleans police
in the following story fascinating.
<http://lonestar-mvpa.org/events/2005/05_Katrina.htm>
Interesting stuff. In England citizens do not
look down on welfare like they do in the US.
They still look down on it tho.
Post by a***@aol.com
The citizens tend to take the view that their parents
and grandparents paid into the system and it's ok
for them to take some of it in times of need.
Mindlessly silly, it isnt an accumulation system.
Post by a***@aol.com
I never realized that racism is part of the reason
that some folks in the US look down on welfare.
Just as true with england, most obviously with black immigrants.
Offbreed
2005-09-13 22:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
I never realized that racism is part of the reason that some folks in the US
look down on welfare.
It doesn't help that the most vocal of the welfare advocates start
screaming "racism" at every change in benefits, or that the most vocal
of the welfare recipients are Negro.

That sort of thing just makes the racial aspects worse.
r***@hotmail.com
2005-09-14 00:21:45 UTC
Permalink
amd... wrote:
Interesting stuff. In England citizens do not look down on welfare
like they do
in the US. The citizens tend to take the view that their parents and
grandparents paid into the system and it's ok for them to take some of
it in
times of need.

I never realized that racism is part of the reason that some folks in
the US
look down on welfare.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am from eastern Kentucky .
I am white.
An geographihc area famous for it's ingornace and lack of economic
developement. About half of my fathers family stayed in the the "hills"

and have been on the dole for 3 generations. There is no way these
loosers can begin to make the claim that their ancestors contributed
to Social Security so they are just getting their due.

They are lazy drunking bums who have elevated ignorance to olympian
levels. With the moralaity of a mink. Bitter, maybe, but I am sick and

tired of my tax dollar paying for their bastards and booze and "dope".

Harsh? No, not really. As a child I wondered why Grannies, both my
grand moms lived within 20 miles of each other, houses and yards
were so neat and clean, but most of their neighbors homes were trash
heaps. It was simple, for the most part, those with any brains,
interprise
or "get up" got up and left. Leaving the dregs of society behind. The
failure of our social welfare system is all too aparant. One doesn't
have
to be black to be a useless stumble bum. Drink like a fish, abuse your

wife and kids, cheat your family and friends, and make it all right by

going to chruch for salvation.
From conversation with several black friends, whose experiences nearly
match mine, I think as harsh as it might be, the best solution would
be to
cut almost all welfae. If you won't/can't work, you get warehoused in
abandonded miliatry bases. Locked up to protect the rest of society.

I also favor the complete legalization of all drugs. Drug heads would
rapidly cease to be a problem with access to unlimited supply of
whatever their favorite posion is.

Black, white, latino whatever, it doesn't rally mater, I think that in
the end
we have a bunch opf lazy slobs who are too good to do work suited for
them. Did I mention the high school drop out rate? Way too high. I have
kin that couldn't wait to turn 18 to get their own check. What a proud
achievement. Too bad that by droppng out they have almost insured
their live long suffereing in poverty and squaler. But hey, their
choice,
their life.

The resentment against welfare has much less to with racism,
then it has to do with daily seeing the complete and utter failure of
welfare. Multigeneration welfare demonstrates it is the wrong answer.
Once the lazy suck at the public teat, they are loath to work again.

Tim and others argue that black people are shiftless useless eaters.
I respectfully disagree. In our society too many black people have sunk

to that level, but there is nothing inhierent with skin color that
limits blacks
to the botom of society. Any black family that tolerates rap and jive
has condemed thier kids to a life of paverty and failure. Any black
famiooy who spouts the afro centric psudeo culture represented by
"Africa Now" has
done more to insure the poverty then the most racist white could ever
manage.

How to suceed in the evil wicked racist white world:
Learn to read and think.
Attain useable job skills.
Learn to speak English.
Work hared, save and improve your life.

How to fail:
Blame all setbacks man the "man".
Blame whitey because you couldn't be bothered to learn.
After all, book learning is "whiten' out".
Dream about what you are going to do with the millions you will
makes as a basket ball/rapper/ganster/drug dealer/pimp.
And keep dreaming as it is clear that you aren't going to be the
next great star i your choseen field.
Ignore the basics. After all why would anyone really need to
be able to figure 15% of $11.30.
Reading and spellling, why bother.

Harsh? Again no, reality. My black friend from NO has incident
after incident where her own brothers wasted good chances to
imporve thier life. I asked if she was going to try and locate them to
help.
Her commnet was telling if brief; "Help them?!?! Screw them. I hope
they drowned. My younger brother was a no god crack head my older
brother
would screw anything he could. There ain't no way I am even going to
talk to those POS again". 3 years she went home for her mom's funeral,
which she ended up paying for. Her younger bother stole her laptop,
camera and even stole his dead mothers wedding ring.

Not everybody in the Big Easy was a crack head, pimp or whore. But
the majority of them had little familiarity wiht honesty, the ability
to work
a steady job or be any use to a functioning society.

Whose fault is this?
I really don't know and no longer care./

Her solution to the intense black on black crime is three strikes,
felony convictions and your live visa is cancelled. No hatred no anger,
just the
acceptance of putting a sick animal who could have been human to
"sleep". Another black friend whose father was an AME minister thinks
we might have to cull the better part of a generation. He is worried
that the hip young whties are emulating their black rap heros are are
going down the same path to hell.


Perhaps Katrina will serve as a wake up that way too many Americans
not only don't want to participate in the wider society in any meaning
full
way, as they can't particpate. They have no job skills, no reasoning
ability.
I am not limiting my comment to blacks. Most of those who lost
everything
along the gulf coast are white and just as clueless as the
stereotypcial NO
black person. They are hard workers to be sure. I nlow paying, deazd
end jobs. The best jobs were in the casinos. A real good job there.
But utterly clueless. Only an idiot would build at near sea level
within site of the ocean
in an geographic are that routinly has bad huricanes. And only a
bigger
idiot would try to ride out a cat 4 hurincane with an expected ~30'
storm surge. These people are so limited in their ability to reason
that a very
good argument can be made that they are not competent to manage
their own lives. But, for now, the US still allows us our freedom. The

freedom to do realy dumb things, the freedom to toss our lives away, or
the freedom to make realistic plans, to build a life that is worth
living. We each get to decide every day if we want to continue working
for a goal or to give up and sink into poverty.

Most often the poor are poor because they made and continue to make
very bad choices. They lack the ability to connect todays actions and
choices with tommorrows succeses or failures. When I was out of work
I went tot he un-employemnet office to fill out the forms. I didn't
plan to use UE, but it was a benifit offered throguh my fomer job. I
was amased at the
lame brained idiots hanging out there. Black or white they were 99%
trash.
Real loosers. Who could have benifited from a good bath. I watched in
shcok as they tried to fill out a form so simple anyone in my 6th
grade
class would have sailed through it. But they all had cell phones and
beepers,
and the blacks had a lot of bling bling. I walked out and before my
vacation
pay ran out I landed another job. Making 10K less then the one I had
lost,
but I took it. 4 months later I moved to another job still making less
then I made, but with better benifits. 6 months later I landed a good
ob. 15K more then I had made at the good job. Out of a department of 15
people, 5 took
early retiment. 1 went back to school to finsh their masters degree,
of the
others(me included) 6 landed jobs within weeks of getting laid off. The
other 3, with the same job skills that we had, are still unemployed and
show no
sign of getting a job. They where the firt to bitch about how unfair
this was.
At the few lunches we had they continued to loudly bitch. One, a black
woman had the nerve to say that it was whiteys fault we all got fired.
It would have bene funny if it wasn't so typical. I walked out and
haven't spoken with her or the other 2 loosers in almost a year now.
She and one
other looser tried to file suit claiming that it was racial
discrimination that
lead to the job lay offs. Really, 12 white people and 3 blacks. Yea
they
nuked us 12 whites to get at those blacks.

Please forgive me if I am just tired of paying the way for those too
damned lazy to get off their fat butts and get a job. The black lady
had first dibs on
the 10K less job I took. She was indignant about the pay cut. I was
just
gald to have a job. I wonder why I am doing pretty good and she just
lost her home when she defaulted on the mortgage payments. In another
year
I will be back wher I would have been had the layoff not happened. And
the palce I work now is a dman site better then where we worked.

And the sweetist thing is to be able to tell a former employer who
screwed you that if they if they ever conatact you again you will have
them arrested
for harasment. After they fired us all, they found out it was going to
cost but
5 times as much to out source what we did. I will let you guess the
color
of the man who made the decision to nuke our department. And ordered
me to destroy all the documents that I had made in the 25 years I
worked
there. Yea it is sweer when they need information that only you had to
restart the department. Informatino that I wa sordered to destroy. Oh
and
the sweetist thing, Dr. Know it all got demoted to a corner office
without
any job responsibilities because of how badly he screwed up. He has
gained over 5lbs and is looking pretty damn sick. A clasic example of
promoting someone to get the racial numbers correct. To bad it has
cost
them over a million in unanticipated expenses so far.

Terry
a***@aol.com
2005-09-14 00:42:58 UTC
Permalink
On 13 Sep 2005 17:21:45 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by r***@hotmail.com
An geographihc area famous for it's ingornace and lack of economic
developement. About half of my fathers family stayed in the the "hills"
and have been on the dole for 3 generations. There is no way these
loosers can begin to make the claim that their ancestors contributed
to Social Security so they are just getting their due.
Your family has only been here for three generations? A lot of us have been
here since the early 1600's.
r***@hotmail.com
2005-09-14 01:52:02 UTC
Permalink
amd wrote:
Your family has only been here for three generations? A lot of us have
been
here since the early 1600's.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I never said my family had only been here for three generations.
We had a land grant becaue great great wayback fought the brits
and received land for his effort.

Before welfare you ether worked, or your family took care of you or you

starved. Since welfare keeps the lazy bums well fed and with enough
cash left over for meth or oxycodone the two drugs of chice these days,
they don't starve. I asked a cousin why he did drugs and he told me he
was just bored. I almost asked if he was so bored why the hell didn't
he
get a job. But I remembered that only kin kill kin in eastern KY.
Unless of course it is a drug deal gone bad. As you may understand I no
longer go
to family reunions or funerals.

Terry
a***@aol.com
2005-09-14 02:16:03 UTC
Permalink
On 13 Sep 2005 18:52:02 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Before welfare you ether worked, or your family took care of you or you
Or you and a bunch of your countryman revolted, or you moved to America.
a***@aol.com
2005-09-14 00:44:29 UTC
Permalink
On 13 Sep 2005 17:21:45 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by r***@hotmail.com
. If you won't/can't work, you get warehoused in
abandonded miliatry bases. Locked up to protect the rest of society.
That would cost a hell of a lot more then keeping them on welfare!!!!

Welfare is what governments and kings give to the peasants in order to keep them
from revolting.
Rod Speed
2005-09-14 01:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Welfare is what governments and kings give to the
peasants in order to keep them from revolting.
Mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Have fun explaining HongKong that
never bothered much with welfare and didnt see much revolting at all.
The Real Bev
2005-09-14 02:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod Speed
Post by a***@aol.com
Welfare is what governments and kings give to the
peasants in order to keep them from revolting.
Mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Have fun explaining HongKong that
never bothered much with welfare and didnt see much revolting at all.
No peasants in Hong Kong, just entrepreneurs.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My life outside of USENET is so full of love and kindness that I have
to come here to find the venom and bile that I crave." --R. Damiani
Rod Speed
2005-09-14 03:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Rod Speed
Post by a***@aol.com
Welfare is what governments and kings give to the
peasants in order to keep them from revolting.
Mindless pig ignorant bullshit. Have fun explaining HongKong that
never bothered much with welfare and didnt see much revolting at all.
No peasants in Hong Kong, just entrepreneurs.
Wrong. Heaps of peasants that 'lived' a lot
worse than the dregs in the first world too.
Antipodean Bucket Farmer
2005-09-14 04:43:12 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by a***@aol.com
On 13 Sep 2005 17:21:45 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
Post by r***@hotmail.com
. If you won't/can't work, you get warehoused in
abandonded miliatry bases. Locked up to protect the rest of society.
That would cost a hell of a lot more then keeping them on welfare!!!!
Welfare is what governments and kings give to the peasants in order to keep them
from revolting.
OTOH, chronic, habitual welfare can be viewed as
protection money paid by the average working people.
Handing some deadbeat a regular dole cheque reduces the
risk that s/he will become desperate, and will
violently mug me for money to cover his/her booze,
weed, solvents, gambling, etc, expenses. And,
hopefully, reducing the crime risk will also reduce the
chance of said deadbeat/thug landing in prison, at a
much higher taxpayor cost than the welfare benefit.

Not to mention the warm, fuzzy feeling of kindness and
compassion that chronic, habitual welfare allows us to
purchase, without even getting our hands dirty.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
h***@hotmail.com
2005-09-14 01:02:24 UTC
Permalink
***@hotmail.com wrote:

I am from eastern Kentucky .
Post by r***@hotmail.com
I am white.
An geographihc area famous for it's ingornace and lack of economic
developement. About half of my fathers family stayed in the the "hills"
and have been on the dole for 3 generations. There is no way these
loosers can begin to make the claim that their ancestors contributed
to Social Security so they are just getting their due.
They are lazy drunking bums who have elevated ignorance to olympian
levels. With the moralaity of a mink. Bitter, maybe, but I am sick and
tired of my tax dollar paying for their bastards and booze and "dope".
Harsh? No, not really. As a child I wondered why Grannies, both my
grand moms lived within 20 miles of each other, houses and yards
were so neat and clean, but most of their neighbors homes were trash
heaps. It was simple, for the most part, those with any brains,
interprise
or "get up" got up and left. Leaving the dregs of society behind. The
failure of our social welfare system is all too aparant. One doesn't
have
to be black to be a useless stumble bum. Drink like a fish, abuse your
wife and kids, cheat your family and friends, and make it all right by
going to chruch for salvation.
From conversation with several black friends, whose experiences nearly
match mine, I think as harsh as it might be, the best solution would
be to
cut almost all welfae. If you won't/can't work, you get warehoused in
abandonded miliatry bases. Locked up to protect the rest of society.
I also favor the complete legalization of all drugs. Drug heads would
rapidly cease to be a problem with access to unlimited supply of
whatever their favorite posion is.
Black, white, latino whatever, it doesn't rally mater, I think that in
the end
we have a bunch opf lazy slobs who are too good to do work suited for
them. Did I mention the high school drop out rate? Way too high. I have
kin that couldn't wait to turn 18 to get their own check. What a proud
achievement. Too bad that by droppng out they have almost insured
their live long suffereing in poverty and squaler. But hey, their
choice,
their life.
Curious how someone who purports to be "from eastern Kentucky" and
appears at first glance to be semi-literate, knows the difference
between the usage of "too" and "to, " "their" and "there," the
intricacies of syntax, and errs in spelling out of effect rather than
substance.

A big root-toot to friends in Pikeville, who (as far as I can tell)
kin spill bater thun that. And look out for that coal truck coming
down the mountain, it ain'ta goina stop or slow down if you're inthe
way!

BTW, who said there weren't problems with idiots, whether they were on
welfare or not?
r***@hotmail.com
2005-09-14 02:08:53 UTC
Permalink
hchick..

Curious how someone who purports to be "from eastern Kentucky" and
appears at first glance to be semi-literate, knows the difference
between the usage of "too" and "to, " "their" and "there," the
intricacies of syntax, and errs in spelling out of effect rather than
substance.

A big root-toot to friends in Pikeville, who (as far as I can tell)
kin spill bater thun that. And look out for that coal truck coming
down the mountain, it ain'ta goina stop or slow down if you're inthe
way!

BTW, who said there weren't problems with idiots, whether they were on
welfare or not?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ever heard of dyslexia?
And in spite of that disability I have done prety well.
I cold have moaned about how hard it was to learn
to read and spell, but I never saw the point and decided to
work at it. I still can't spell worth crap, and Google Beta
doesn't have a spell checker.
I am playing with a voice to text program and may start using it.

My commnets were in response to the comment that in the US
looking down o welfare was a form of racism.

I was born in Perry county at the ARH. A hell hole back then.
I still like old 15 (KY476) beter then the new one, and can't
wait to see what the wasted money on the KY15 improvement from
Van Cleve(spelling?) to Jackson will do. And I like KY1812, the one
that comes out almost in front of the Jackson Piza Hut more then the
new road.

IMO Billy Ed Wheelers "The Coming of The Raods" captures
what Appalachia has lost. Jean Ritchy from Viper in Perry county
has recounted the troubles of modern life in Appalachia and told
me in a private conversation after a performance here in Lexington
that "somewhere the mountain people made a wrong turn".

And I am glad your kin in Pikeville can spell better then me. And I
hope
that your family is not blighted from drugs like what seems to be 90%
of the people in Breathit, Perry and Knot county.


And what scare me is the knowledge that the only reason I am not a lost
druged out ididot on welfare is my father left the mountains when I was
a baby. I asked him why and he told me it was simple, there was no
economic future in the hills. And unless a man wanted to work in the
mines or teach there were really no jobs. He worked for ~40 years as an
accountant and missed the hills everyday. He sacrificed his comfort for
my family to have a decent life and a shot at a better life. I have
thanked
hinm many times and still an not imagine the courage it took to leave
everything he knew behind and move to the flat lands.

I have always hoped what I said would shine through any spelling
errors.
If not sorry. I am over 50 and it is unlikely that my spelling will
improve.

If you get a chance try to find a copy of the Appalshop documentary;
"Appalachian Genisis". A 1970 look at what was going wrong. Looking
at it now I can see all the problems that were not solved and might not

have a solution.

Terry
The Real Bev
2005-09-14 02:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Ever heard of dyslexia?
Yeah, my cousin had it -- they only discovered it when she was in her teens.
I don't know what they did about it, I didn't keep up with that part of the
family. Do you have problems reading, or only writing?
Post by r***@hotmail.com
And in spite of that disability I have done prety well.
I cold have moaned about how hard it was to learn
to read and spell, but I never saw the point and decided to
work at it. I still can't spell worth crap, and Google Beta
doesn't have a spell checker.
I am playing with a voice to text program and may start using it.
Have you considered using Mozilla's mail/news facility. A bit balky, but
better than google and it has a spellchecker. Google is a good search engine,
but a lousy news server. If you have firefox only, and not mozilla, you can
download the thunderbird mail/news program. Since it's newer it ought to be
better than mozilla's, but nearly anything is better than google.

Otherise, can you use whatever you use for email for news? A lot of people
like Agent or Free Agent, also downloadable.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My life outside of USENET is so full of love and kindness that I have
to come here to find the venom and bile that I crave." --R. Damiani
h***@hotmail.com
2005-09-14 02:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.com
If you get a chance try to find a copy of the Appalshop documentary;
"Appalachian Genisis". A 1970 look at what was going wrong. Looking
at it now I can see all the problems that were not solved and might not
have a solution.
Friends in Pikeville, not kin. A grandfather passed through the area
and worked at the mines on the way to California. I'm curious about
the book and will look it up.

You've posted a few years back? I seem to remember you or someone
with a similar viewpoint.
Andy
2005-09-13 20:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Duane Bozarth
Post by Shawn Hirn
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
I think your reading is "a little" incomplete and selective, too... :)
Probably the major reason (other than the obvious one that the
Constitution isn't the place for policy) such a prohibition wasn't
mentioned was that it would have been considered ludicrous to think such
could be expected of government.
The founding fathers couldn't have had any idea of what was to come.
Here is a quick summary of some aspects of the issue through the
years. There are many factors that I don't include, for sake of
brevity. I only report that it appears each action, each step taken
in years past, was taken in response to an immediate problem with the
poor, and applied as a corrective measure. Loosely speaking, each
step was an improvement over the situation it corrected. We live with
the cumulative effect of those actions.
Thanks for the good post. Its good to see someone who takes the time
to talk about the history and complexity of a social issue and not
retreat into knee-jerk opinions.

As you point out, people tend to forget that our government is the way
it is today because, over time, the majority agreed that various
changes were improvements over the status quo. All of the negative
things that were eliminated by these changes are forgotten about, and
all that people can see is the price we pay today.

Andy
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-14 16:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duane Bozarth
...
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
If I remember correctly when we had a Constitution, the federal government
was set up to protect the US from foreign interests. Not to provide a roof
over our head and food to those who did not feel like providing ourselves.
Your memory is a bit incomplete. The major goal by ratifying the
Constitution was to keep government out of the private lives of
individuals. Protection from foreign governments was part of it.
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
I think your reading is "a little" incomplete and selective, too... :)
Probably the major reason (other than the obvious one that the
Constitution isn't the place for policy) such a prohibition wasn't
mentioned was that it would have been considered ludicrous to think such
could be expected of government.
Is that why we have the 9th and 10th amendments?
Gunner Asch
2005-09-14 08:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Chris
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
And that is precisely why we are a nation of laws, not of pimping for
votes.
Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.
--Tim May
Tim,
Well said!!!
If I remember correctly when we had a Constitution, the federal government
was set up to protect the US from foreign interests. Not to provide a roof
over our head and food to those who did not feel like providing ourselves.
Your memory is a bit incomplete. The major goal by ratifying the
Constitution was to keep government out of the private lives of
individuals. Protection from foreign governments was part of it.
If the founding fathers were opposed to welfare type assistance, I
presume they would have said so in the Constitution and put some limits
on government there, but they didn't as far as I can tell, nor has any
congress since than or president put forth an amendment to do that.
Speech before the House of Representatives
by David (Davy) Crockett

Not Yours to Give

One day in the House of Representatives, a bill was taken up
appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished
naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its
support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Mr.
Crockett arose:

"Mr. Speaker --- I have as much respect for the memory of the
deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if
suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit
our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to
lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will
not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to
appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this
floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as
much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of
Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public
money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that
it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long
after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death,
and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him.

"Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without
the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a
debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a
charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much
money of our own as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I
cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the
object, and, if every member of Congress will do the same, it will
amount to more than the bill asks.

"He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage,
and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and
as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few
votes, and of course, was lost.

"Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation,
Crockett gave this explanation:

"Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the
Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was
attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a
large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could.
In spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many
families made homeless, and, besides, some of them had lost all but
the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so
many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be
one for them. The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating
$20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed
it through as soon as it could be done.

"The next summer, when it began to be time to think about the
election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my
district. I had no opposition there, but, as the election was some
time off, I did not know what might turn up. When riding one day in a
part of my district in which I was more a stranger than any other, I
saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my
gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up, I
spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather
coldly.

"I began: 'Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called
candidates, and--'

" 'Yes, I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once
before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose
you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time
or mine. I shall not vote for you again.'

"This was a sockdolager... I begged him to tell me what was the
matter.

" 'Well, Colonel, it is hardly worth-while to waste time or words upon
it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter
which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the
Constitution, or that you are wanting in the honesty and firmness to
be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me.
But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend
to avail myself of the privilege of the constituent to speak plainly
to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I
intended by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution
is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my
rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be
honest....But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine
I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything,
must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The
man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the
more honest he is.'

"I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake
about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon
any Constitutional question.

" 'No, Colonel, there's no mistake. Though I live here in the
backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington
and read very carefully all the proceedings in Congress. My papers say
that last winter you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some
suffers by a fire in Georgetown. Is that true?'

"Well, my friend, I may as well own up. You have got me there. But
certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours
should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering
women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury,
and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I
did.'

" 'It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the
principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the
Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has
nothing to do with the question. The power of collecting and
disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be
intrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue
by tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor
he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his
means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where
the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who
can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that
while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from
thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give
anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and
you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the
right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the
Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you
are at liberty to give to any thing and everything which you may
believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you
may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this
would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand,
and for robbing the people on the other. No, Colonel, Congress has no
right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their
own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of
the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been
burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other
member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for
our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress.
If they had shown their sympathy for the suffers by contributing each
one week's pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of
men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without
depriving themselves of even a luxury of life. The congressmen chose
to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend
not very creditable; and the people about Washington, no doubt,
applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by
giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to
Congress, by the Constitu- tion, the power to do certain things. To do
these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing
else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the
Constitution. So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution
in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with
danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch it's
power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it,
and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly,
but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are
personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you..'

"I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and
this man should go to talking, he would set others to talking, and in
that district I was a gone fawn-skin. I could not answer him, for the
fact is, I was so fully convinced that he was right, I did not want
to. But I must satisfy him, and I said to him: Well, my friend, you
hit the nail upon the head when you said I did not have sense enough
to understand the Constitution. I intended to be guided by it, and
thought I had studied it fully. I have heard many speeches in Congress
about the powers of Congress, but what you have said here at your plow
has got more hard, sound sense in it than all the fine speeches I ever
heard. If I had ever taken the view of it that you have, I would have
put my head into the fire before I would have given that vote; and if
I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be shot.

"He laughingly replied: 'Yes Colonel, you have sworn to that once
before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You say that
you are convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it
will do more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around this
district, you will tell people about this vote, and that you are
satisfied that it was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do
what I can to keep down opposition, and perhaps, I may exert a little
influence in that way.'

"If I don't [said I] I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I
am earnest in what I say I will come back this way in a week or ten
days, and if you will get up a gathering of the people, I will make a
speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it.

" 'No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section, but we have
plenty of provisions to contribute to a barbecue, and some to spare
for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days,
and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. This is Thursday; I will
see to getting up on Saturday week.. Come to my house on Friday, and
we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see
and hear you.'

"Well, I will be here. but one thing more before I say good-bye. I
must know your name.

" 'My name is Bunce.'

"Not Horatio Bunce?

" 'Yes.'

"Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before though you say you have seen
me, but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very proud
that I may hope to have you for my friend.

"It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled
but little with the public, but was widely known for his remarkable
intelligence and incorruptible integrity, and for a heart brimful and
running over with kindness and benevolence, which showed themselves
not only in words but in acts. He was the oracle of the whole country
around him, and his fame had extended far beyond the circle of his
immediate acquaintance. Though I had never met him before, I had heard
much of him, and but for this meeting it is very likely I should have
had opposition, and had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man
could now stand up in that district under such a vote.

"At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our
conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man I stayed all
night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and a
confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before.
Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and,
under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept up
until midnight, talking about the principles and affairs of
government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got
all my life before. I have known and seen much of him since, for I
respect him --- no, that is not the word --- I reverence and love him
more than any living man, and I go to see him two or three times a
year; and I will tell you sir, if everyone who professes to be a
Christian, lived and acted and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of
Christ would take the world by storm.

"But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue,
and, to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good
many whom I had not known before, and they and my friend introduced me
around until I had got pretty well acquainted --- at least, they all
knew me. In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They
gathered up around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech
by saying:

"Fellow-citizens --- I present myself before you today feeling like a
new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or
prejudice, or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I
can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service
than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for
the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I
should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you.
Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only.

"I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the
appropriation and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I
closed by saying:

"And now, fellow-citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the
most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was
simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr.
Bunce, convinced me of my error.

"It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to
the credit for it. And now I hope he is satisfied with his convert and
that he will get up here and tell you so.

"He came upon the stand and said: " 'Fellow-citizens --- It affords me
great pleasure to comply with the request of Colonel Crockett. I have
always considered him a thoroughly honest man, and I am satisfied that
he will faithfully perform all that he has promised you today.'

"He went down, and there went up from that crowd such a shout for Davy
Crockett as his name never called forth before.

"I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and
felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that
the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man, and the
honest, hearty shout they produced, is worth more to me than all the
reputation I have ever made, or shall ever make, as a member of
Congress.

"Now, sir," concluded Crockett, "you know why I made that speech
yesterday. There is one thing now to which I wish to call to your
attention. You remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There
are in that House many very wealthy men --- men who think nothing of
spending a week's pay, or a dozen of them, for a dinner or a wine
party when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same
men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the
country owed the deceased --- a debt which could not be paid by money
--- and the insignificance and worthlessness of money, particularly so
insignificance a sum as $10,000, when weighed against the honor of the
nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with
them is nothing but trash when it is come out of the people. But it is
the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of
them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it." David
Crockett was born August 17, 1786 at Limestone (Greene County),
Tennessee. He died March 06, 1836 as one of the brave Southerners
defending the Alamo.

Crockett had settled in Franklin County, Tennessee in 1811. He served
in the Creek War under Andrew Jackson. In 1821 and 1823 he was elected
to the Tennessee legislature. In 1826 and 1828 he was elected to
Congress. He was defeated in 1830 for his outspoken opposition to
President Jackson's Indian Bill - but was elected again in 1832.

In Washington, although his eccentricities of dress and manner excited
comment, he was always popular on account of his shrewd common sense
and homely wit; although generally favoring Jackson's policy, he was
entirely independent and refused to vote to please any party leader.

At the end of the congressional term, he joined the Texans in the war
against Mexico, and in 1836 was one of the roughly 180 men who died
defending the Alamo. Tradition has it that Crockett was one of only
six survivors after the Mexicans took the fort, and that he and the
others were taken out and executed by firing squad.
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
Nick Hull
2005-09-13 03:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.
--Tim May
Sounds like you are advocating assassinating ALL politicians ;)
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Tim May
2005-09-13 04:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Hull
Post by Tim May
Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.
--Tim May
Sounds like you are advocating assassinating ALL politicians ;)
This is why I cheered when Al Qaeda sent planes toward Washington. I
was hoping for the "Sato Solution," a decapitation of Congress. Most
would have gotten away, it seems likely, but our estimates are that 190
or so actual Congresscriminals, plus vast numbers of staffer parasites,
would have been given justice.

Alas, one plane fell short. Another chose a completely unimportant
target.

I still hope that the AN-59K nukes sold in Samarkand in 1999 will
decapitate the head of the snake...and remove 450,000 negro welfare
recipients in Washington, too.


--Tim May
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-13 10:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
I still hope that the AN-59K nukes sold in Samarkand in 1999 will
decapitate the head of the snake...and remove 450,000 negro welfare
recipients in Washington, too.
BIGOT! PLONK!
Gunner Asch
2005-09-14 07:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hirn
Post by Tim May
I still hope that the AN-59K nukes sold in Samarkand in 1999 will
decapitate the head of the snake...and remove 450,000 negro welfare
recipients in Washington, too.
BIGOT! PLONK!
My but that saved you the effort in trying to refute him, now didnt
it?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-13 10:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
Post by Too_Many_Tools
I agree with the general discussion but...
I have seen it mentioned several places that only 40% of the population
had flood insurance.
Now if you have 60% of the population that can't afford to rebuild
because of losses, what do you think the politicians will do?
Also remember that over one million people are homeless at this time.
That is a significant number of votes.
And that is precisely why we are a nation of laws, not of pimping for
votes.
Any politician who votes to give money freely to those who do not have
a legal claim to it should be assassinated.
Ah! A choice of pissing off the majority of people who lack flood
insurance or the minority who have it. Guess which group any politician
will seek to piss off first? Yup, the group with flood insurance. Laws
are made by politicians, you know. There are plenty of laws on the books
that were born out of political whim rather than a sense of justice.
Loading...