Discussion:
Wall-Mart low wages and illegal Alien Labor!
(too old to reply)
BunnERabbit
2003-10-24 07:52:15 UTC
Permalink
***@aol.com (Aozotorp), Wrote:

<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical PC
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.

Anyway..

Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?

--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.


_____

"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____

"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____

"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature

----------
The mailbox, ***@webtv.net has been circumvented to fight spam.
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Blade
2003-10-24 09:53:12 UTC
Permalink
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors that
do the cleaning.

It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical PC
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
kitty
2003-10-24 11:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors that
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical PC
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Yes it is, they are legally bound to KNOW who they hire...........

kitty
Strider
2003-10-24 14:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical PC
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Yes it is, they are legally bound to KNOW who they hire...........
kitty
It is no more Wal Mart's responsibility to police their contractors
than it is for you take responsibility for the status of the guy that
pumps your gas.

There is a legal difference between an employee and a subcontractor.

Strider
TNSAF
2003-10-24 19:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the
hysterical PC cackling Hens would be screaming racist
conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and
gas stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering
the death of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee,
French Actor _____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus
(525BC-456BC), Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
fight spam. To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Yes it is, they are legally bound to KNOW who they hire...........
kitty
It is no more Wal Mart's responsibility to police their contractors
than it is for you take responsibility for the status of the guy that
pumps your gas.
There is a legal difference between an employee and a subcontractor.
Bush is in the process of flushing the system of illegal aliens working
these jobs so that the "lower middle class" Americans on unemployment will
have new fulfilling career choices, and in turn lowering the unemployment
rates before the next election.
Strider
2003-10-24 19:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the
hysterical PC cackling Hens would be screaming racist
conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and
gas stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering
the death of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee,
French Actor _____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus
(525BC-456BC), Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
fight spam. To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Yes it is, they are legally bound to KNOW who they hire...........
kitty
It is no more Wal Mart's responsibility to police their contractors
than it is for you take responsibility for the status of the guy that
pumps your gas.
There is a legal difference between an employee and a subcontractor.
Bush is in the process of flushing the system of illegal aliens working
these jobs so that the "lower middle class" Americans on unemployment will
have new fulfilling career choices, and in turn lowering the unemployment
rates before the next election.
Sounds like a good start.

Strider
Sue
2003-10-24 20:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Bush is in the process of flushing the system of illegal aliens working
these jobs so that the "lower middle class" Americans on unemployment will
have new fulfilling career choices, and in turn lowering the unemployment
rates before the next election.
Regardless of the motive, this is a bad thing?
Sue
Blade
2003-10-25 00:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical PC
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus
(525BC-456BC),
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
Post by BunnERabbit
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Yes it is, they are legally bound to KNOW who they hire...........
kitty
It is no more Wal Mart's responsibility to police their contractors
than it is for you take responsibility for the status of the guy that
pumps your gas.
There is a legal difference between an employee and a subcontractor.
Strider
Yup, but the press initially reported it was Wal-Mart's responsibility. As
u can read, the damage to Wal-Mart is already done :(
Strider
2003-10-25 02:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by BunnERabbit
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical
PC
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
Post by BunnERabbit
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the
death
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
Post by BunnERabbit
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus
(525BC-456BC),
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
Post by BunnERabbit
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
spam.
Post by Strider
Post by kitty
Post by Blade
Post by BunnERabbit
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Yes it is, they are legally bound to KNOW who they hire...........
kitty
It is no more Wal Mart's responsibility to police their contractors
than it is for you take responsibility for the status of the guy that
pumps your gas.
There is a legal difference between an employee and a subcontractor.
Strider
Yup, but the press initially reported it was Wal-Mart's responsibility. As
u can read, the damage to Wal-Mart is already done :(
I suspect that Wally World will survive. I doubt that their customer
base really gives a crap about who sweeps the floors.

Strider
Notroll2004
2003-10-24 12:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors that
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
The Feds wire tapped Wal-Mart offices in Bentonville. Wal-Mart execs knew
exactly what their sub was doing. Have you ever seen an Arkansas perp walk?
This will be good.
r***@yahoo.com
2003-10-24 12:47:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:34:28 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
The Feds wire tapped Wal-Mart offices in Bentonville. Wal-Mart execs knew
exactly what their sub was doing. Have you ever seen an Arkansas perp walk?
Yeah. Clintons.
Notroll2004
2003-10-24 21:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:34:28 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
The Feds wire tapped Wal-Mart offices in Bentonville. Wal-Mart execs knew
exactly what their sub was doing. Have you ever seen an Arkansas perp walk?
Yeah. Clintons.
No, you've confused Bill with Rush.
Strider
2003-10-25 02:05:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:01:17 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by r***@yahoo.com
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:34:28 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
The Feds wire tapped Wal-Mart offices in Bentonville. Wal-Mart execs
knew
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by Notroll2004
exactly what their sub was doing. Have you ever seen an Arkansas perp
walk?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Yeah. Clintons.
No, you've confused Bill with Rush.
Rush ain't from Arkansas.

Strider
Notroll2004
2003-10-25 02:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:01:17 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by r***@yahoo.com
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:34:28 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors
Post by Strider
Post by Notroll2004
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by Notroll2004
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
The Feds wire tapped Wal-Mart offices in Bentonville. Wal-Mart execs
knew
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by Notroll2004
exactly what their sub was doing. Have you ever seen an Arkansas perp
walk?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Yeah. Clintons.
No, you've confused Bill with Rush.
Rush ain't from Arkansas.
Strider
No, he's from southern Missouri - much worse.
DrPostman
2003-10-25 13:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:01:17 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by r***@yahoo.com
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:34:28 -0500, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the sub-contractors
that
Post by Blade
do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
The Feds wire tapped Wal-Mart offices in Bentonville. Wal-Mart execs
knew
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by Notroll2004
exactly what their sub was doing. Have you ever seen an Arkansas perp
walk?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Yeah. Clintons.
No, you've confused Bill with Rush.
Rush ain't from Arkansas.
Strider
You consider SouthEast Missouri far?




--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar
TNSAF
2003-10-24 19:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>

"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press on
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives, managers
and contractors."

http://tinyurl.com/s8uk

It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Strider
2003-10-24 19:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press on
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives, managers
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.

If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?

Strider
Irony Alert
2003-10-24 20:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press on
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives, managers
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
--
Felony case "02-CR-0617 9/1/03: Oregon Department of
Justice V. Raymond Ronald Karczewski, Defendant."

"The defendant's name is NOT copyrighted."
Strider
2003-10-24 20:24:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.

I'll be waiting with bated breath.

Strider
Irony Alert
2003-10-24 21:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.

The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
--
Felony case "02-CR-0617 9/1/03: Oregon Department of
Justice V. Raymond Ronald Karczewski, Defendant."

"The defendant's name is NOT copyrighted."
Strider
2003-10-25 02:07:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.

So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?

You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?

Strider
j***@.
2003-10-25 02:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Strider
If you know someone is an illegal alien, and don't report that person,
you are aiding an illegal alien, by allowing him to stay in the United
States, and that is a felony.

You don't have to report anything, but you can go to jail for not
reporting it.
Strider
2003-10-25 02:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Strider
If you know someone is an illegal alien, and don't report that person,
you are aiding an illegal alien, by allowing him to stay in the United
States, and that is a felony.
You don't have to report anything, but you can go to jail for not
reporting it.
Cite?

Strider
Gunner
2003-10-25 07:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Strider
If you know someone is an illegal alien, and don't report that person,
you are aiding an illegal alien, by allowing him to stay in the United
States, and that is a felony.
You don't have to report anything, but you can go to jail for not
reporting it.
You have specific cites in US Code? Trot them out.

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Rich Johnson
2003-10-25 12:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Strider
If you know someone is an illegal alien, and don't report that person,
you are aiding an illegal alien, by allowing him to stay in the United
States, and that is a felony.
You don't have to report anything, but you can go to jail for not
reporting it.
You have specific cites in US Code? Trot them out.
Gunner
Gunner:

Here is a link that pretty much explains it all. Strider is wrong in his
statement. The law is only applicable to those that employ or actively
import or knowingly hide an illegal alien.

http://207.188.212.158/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1195&c=13

Note at the end of the article, every reference that you could want in the
U.S. laws concerning illegal aliens and the duties of the employer and
citizen.

Rich
Strider
2003-10-26 18:51:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:27:54 -0700, "Rich Johnson"
Post by Rich Johnson
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required
to
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that
it is
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Strider
If you know someone is an illegal alien, and don't report that person,
you are aiding an illegal alien, by allowing him to stay in the United
States, and that is a felony.
You don't have to report anything, but you can go to jail for not
reporting it.
You have specific cites in US Code? Trot them out.
Gunner
Here is a link that pretty much explains it all. Strider is wrong in his
statement. The law is only applicable to those that employ or actively
import or knowingly hide an illegal alien.
http://207.188.212.158/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1195&c=13
Note at the end of the article, every reference that you could want in the
U.S. laws concerning illegal aliens and the duties of the employer and
citizen.
Rich
Strider knew this. You must have crossed up my posts.

Strider
Bill
2003-10-26 22:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Wal-Mart's Wages are normal for the jobs being performed. They also have a
good benefits package including stock benefits.

Their is no evidence Wal-Mart intentionally and knowingly hired any illegal
aliens. The Federal INS issue was with some subcontractors and involved less
than 300 people.

This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.
--
Bill Mech
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:27:54 -0700, "Rich Johnson"
Post by Rich Johnson
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required
to
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that
it is
Post by Gunner
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Strider
If you know someone is an illegal alien, and don't report that person,
you are aiding an illegal alien, by allowing him to stay in the United
States, and that is a felony.
You don't have to report anything, but you can go to jail for not
reporting it.
You have specific cites in US Code? Trot them out.
Gunner
Here is a link that pretty much explains it all. Strider is wrong in his
statement. The law is only applicable to those that employ or actively
import or knowingly hide an illegal alien.
http://207.188.212.158/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?
ID=1195&c=13
Post by Strider
Post by Rich Johnson
Note at the end of the article, every reference that you could want in the
U.S. laws concerning illegal aliens and the duties of the employer and
citizen.
Rich
Strider knew this. You must have crossed up my posts.
Strider
Jeff McCann
2003-10-25 02:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
A general principle of American jurisprudence is that we do not compel
citizens to spy on or report on one another to the government. There
are exceptions, such as requiring medical personnel to report suspected
child abuse, but generally these reports are to regulatory agencies, not
law enforcement agencies. There are concerns that some new laws are
leaning in this direction, such as the USA PATRIOT Act. The former East
German Stasi had a lot of experience with this highly effective
technique.

Jeff
unknown
2003-10-25 12:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blade
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations.
They
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is
that it is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
A general principle of American jurisprudence is that we do not compel
citizens to spy on or report on one another to the government. There
are exceptions, such as requiring medical personnel to report suspected
child abuse, but generally these reports are to regulatory agencies, not
law enforcement agencies. There are concerns that some new laws are
leaning in this direction, such as the USA PATRIOT Act. The former East
German Stasi had a lot of experience with this highly effective
technique.
Ashcroft would have been a good leader of the Stasi.

People should always enjoy their work...

FW
Irony Alert
2003-10-25 02:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise statute,
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do my
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
--
Felony case "02-CR-0617 9/1/03: Oregon Department of
Justice V. Raymond Ronald Karczewski, Defendant."

"The defendant's name is NOT copyrighted."
Strider
2003-10-25 02:37:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise statute,
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do my
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
No, if you are going to make outlandish claims then back them up or
just admit you are blowing smoke out your ass.

Turn em in, ignore them, or date their daughters, I don't care, just
don't try to bullshit a bullshitter.

Strider
Rich Johnson
2003-10-25 03:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Big Snip, because it is not relavent to my question below.
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise statute,
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do my
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
Have you ever tried to contact the INS? You can't. Dial their phone
number, you get a recording, with no options to actually talk to someone. I
tried this back in the 1980's in LA to talk about employment forms that
showed Citizenship. (I have an FCC General Class license, and only Citizens
can have that. I was trying to find out why it could not substitute for a
Social Security card, that I had lost.) It is the most difficult agency in
the Federal Government to get a warm body to talk to. The CIA is much
easier to contact and talk to. Turn someone in, take a tent pack a weeks
worth of food and water too.
strabo
2003-10-27 12:06:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise statute,
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do my
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.

Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
kitty
2003-10-27 12:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise statute,
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do my
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???

kitty
Sue
2003-10-27 14:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
Because INS won't do anything about it. Or has your experience been
different?
Sue
Post by kitty
kitty
strabo
2003-10-27 16:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
<snipped>
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
Money and politics.
Post by Irony Alert
kitty
Gunner
2003-10-27 20:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations.
They
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that
it
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to do
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are, and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.

I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.

A Bracero or guest worker program is Manditory and has to be stiffy
enforced.

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Sue
2003-10-27 21:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
A Bracero or guest worker program is Manditory and has to be stiffy
enforced.
Gunner
Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Notroll2004
2003-10-27 23:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
Strider
2003-10-28 00:44:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
That's a good start.

Strider
Sue
2003-10-28 01:07:08 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 01:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
j***@.
2003-10-28 02:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
Just what is you logic? Let every Mexican in Mexico come to the United
States and everything will be just wonderful?
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 02:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
Just what is you logic? Let every Mexican in Mexico come to the United
States and everything will be just wonderful?
No, make the jobs attractive enough so that we don't need large numbers of
"guest workers," legal or illegal.
j***@.
2003-10-28 02:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine
tools
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat
fat
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up
family
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right
wing
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
fundy logic to me.
Just what is you logic? Let every Mexican in Mexico come to the United
States and everything will be just wonderful?
No, make the jobs attractive enough so that we don't need large numbers of
"guest workers," legal or illegal.
Just what do you mean by that, the jobs seem to be attractive enough now
for illegal immigrants.

What about the 3 million high tech workers from India? These jobs were
really attractive to American workers until they took their jobs.
Gunner
2003-10-28 09:22:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:21:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Sue
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine
tools
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat
fat
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up
family
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right
wing
Post by j***@.
Post by kitty
fundy logic to me.
Just what is you logic? Let every Mexican in Mexico come to the United
States and everything will be just wonderful?
No, make the jobs attractive enough so that we don't need large numbers of
"guest workers," legal or illegal.
Which jobs? Those north or south of the border?

The average minimum wage in Mexico, is $4 USD per day. Thats $20 USD
per week. The average Latino machine tool operator in So. Cal, male
or female, makes $11.50 per hour, for semiskilled labor. So..would you
care to discuss attractive jobs? Or are you refering to farm labor?
You ever pick grapes? I have. Aint no way to make that an attractive
job and in this MTV Meism society..there is no way you are gonna get
the current generation of young skulls full of mush kids to go pick
grapes. End program, full stop.

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
kitty
2003-10-28 03:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
You're nuttier than a fruitcake! If the family "BUSTS" up---blame the fuckin
Mexican who came here--dildo----its called taking responsibility....

kitty
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 03:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im
dead
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine
tools
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other
hand..I
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat
fat
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up
family
Post by kitty
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right
wing
Post by kitty
fundy logic to me.
You're nuttier than a fruitcake! If the family "BUSTS" up---blame the fuckin
Mexican who came here--dildo----its called taking responsibility....
kitty
Yo, cat lady, just pay your help a living wage and hire American. You
righties are a hoot. Pedro wouldn't be here if didn't offer him a crappy
job. Hell, they ought to kick your sorry ass across the border for the
illegal hire.
Tim May
2003-10-28 04:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Notroll2004
Yo, cat lady, just pay your help a living wage and hire American. You
righties are a hoot. Pedro wouldn't be here if didn't offer him a crappy
job. Hell, they ought to kick your sorry ass across the border for the
illegal hire.
What any employer pays any employee is between the two of them.

You are free to not shop at Wal-Mart and shop at some other store that
pays some other rate, either higher or lower.

This is what freedom is all about.

Regrettably, tens of millions seem to to think they can "vote" to
change the Constitution.

--Tim May
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 07:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim May
Post by Notroll2004
Yo, cat lady, just pay your help a living wage and hire American. You
righties are a hoot. Pedro wouldn't be here if didn't offer him a crappy
job. Hell, they ought to kick your sorry ass across the border for the
illegal hire.
What any employer pays any employee is between the two of them.
Yes, if the employer is complying with minimum wage and other wage and hour
laws. And if the employee is a citizen or otherwise is a legal immigrant.
Gunner
2003-10-28 09:24:08 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:26:10 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
kitty
Yo, cat lady, just pay your help a living wage and hire American. You
righties are a hoot. Pedro wouldn't be here if didn't offer him a crappy
job. Hell, they ought to kick your sorry ass across the border for the
illegal hire.
Pedro comes here for Crappy jobs? Odd..everyone Ive talked to, comes
to Estados Unitos for the good jobs, and they come north to get away
from the crappy jobs.

Thing slow in your dorm tonight?

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Oliver Costich
2003-10-28 13:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:26:10 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
kitty
Yo, cat lady, just pay your help a living wage and hire American. You
righties are a hoot. Pedro wouldn't be here if didn't offer him a crappy
job. Hell, they ought to kick your sorry ass across the border for the
illegal hire.
Pedro comes here for Crappy jobs? Odd..everyone Ive talked to, comes
to Estados Unitos for the good jobs, and they come north to get away
from the crappy jobs.
Thing slow in your dorm tonight?
Gunner
A high school with a dorm?
Post by Gunner
Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
H. Reader
2003-10-28 04:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
Apparently you believe that Americans have some obligation to
employ Mexicans and see to it that Mexican families are together.
Where did you get that idea?
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 07:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im
dead
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine
tools
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other
hand..I
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat
fat
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up
family
Post by kitty
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right
wing
Post by kitty
fundy logic to me.
Apparently you believe that Americans have some obligation to
employ Mexicans and see to it that Mexican families are together.
Where did you get that idea?
Quite the contrary. I believe Americans have an obligation to hire only
citizens or non-citizens who are legally in this country. The flood of
illegals would drop dramatically if they couldn't get jobs once they got
here.
Clave
2003-10-28 08:04:36 UTC
Permalink
"Notroll2004" <***@charter.net> wrote in message news:***@corp.supernews.com...

<...>
Post by Notroll2004
Quite the contrary. I believe Americans have an obligation to hire only
citizens or non-citizens who are legally in this country. The flood of
illegals would drop dramatically if they couldn't get jobs once they got
here.
Wake up. Capitalism does.

And I imagine this is the thrust of the current administration.

Depress the American work force until they're ready to accept Mexicani wages.

Cheap-Labor Conservatives.

Jim
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
2003-10-28 04:45:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:43:49 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one.
What's the problem?
--
V.G.

"People are more violently opposed to fur than leather, because it is easier to harrass
rich women than it is motorcycle gangs." - Bumper Sticker
(This sig file contains not less than 80% recycled SPAM)

Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.
John Griffin
2003-10-28 06:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Notroll2004
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a
busted up family to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a
Mexican one.
Not quite okay. Ship dad home and all is well, at least in that
one instance.
Post by Notroll2004
Sounds like right wing fundy logic to me.
The word "logic" is just that, only a word, to you. Try to
avoid using it. The word, I mean. You don't have to try to
avoid using logic itself, since you have a natural talent for
avoiding it.
Marcus Cato
2003-10-28 06:53:42 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:43:49 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long a it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
First question - Why do you call yourself Notroll2004, and then troll
threads? Just curious. Left wing logic?

You have the wrong idea about Mexicans. We don't want to treat them
differently; we don't want to treat them at all. Every Illegal Alien
is an unarrested criminal - needs to be arrrested, spend some
low-quality time in a cinder-block holding facility, put on a catapult
and sent back over the fence.
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 08:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:43:49 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Notroll2004
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long a it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
First question - Why do you call yourself Notroll2004, and then troll
threads? Just curious. Left wing logic?
You have the wrong idea about Mexicans. We don't want to treat them
differently; we don't want to treat them at all. Every Illegal Alien
is an unarrested criminal - needs to be arrrested, spend some
low-quality time in a cinder-block holding facility, put on a catapult
and sent back over the fence.
I would support that - if the same penalty is applied to employers who hire
illegals.
Kitty
2003-10-28 17:25:24 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:00:40 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Marcus Cato
Every Illegal Alien
Post by Marcus Cato
is an unarrested criminal - needs to be arrrested, spend some
low-quality time in a cinder-block holding facility, put on a catapult
and sent back over the fence.
HeHeHeHe! I really like the catapult idea!
Post by Marcus Cato
I would support that - if the same penalty is applied to employers who hire
illegals.
No, we don't send them anywhere...we conficate their business, sell
it, turn the profit to INS, and put them on a rock pile for a few
years. When they get out, they MAY NOT go into business again.

Re: The rock pile: They get to produce or starve. I don't care.
Give them a bucket of seed, a hoe, and a creek full of water. They
produce - or they starve. I don't give one whit - it should be their
choice. But us, spending 20-30 thousand a year to finance keeping
them? Not a chance!

Kitty II
Sue
2003-10-28 17:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kitty
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:00:40 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Marcus Cato
Every Illegal Alien
Post by Marcus Cato
is an unarrested criminal - needs to be arrrested, spend some
low-quality time in a cinder-block holding facility, put on a catapult
and sent back over the fence.
HeHeHeHe! I really like the catapult idea!
Post by Marcus Cato
I would support that - if the same penalty is applied to employers who hire
illegals.
No, we don't send them anywhere...we conficate their business, sell
it, turn the profit to INS, and put them on a rock pile for a few
years. When they get out, they MAY NOT go into business again.
Re: The rock pile: They get to produce or starve. I don't care.
Give them a bucket of seed, a hoe, and a creek full of water. They
produce - or they starve. I don't give one whit - it should be their
choice. But us, spending 20-30 thousand a year to finance keeping
them? Not a chance!
A "lady" here in town had a bad habit of hiring illegals for contract
farm labor. The 2nd time she got caught she spent time in the federal
pen. She had quite a lot of assets and considered herself to be hot
stuff. Last time I saw her she was working at McDonalds. Chuckle. As
pathetic as it was to see a 50+ year old woman flipping burgers I
don't know of anyone around here who felt sorry for her.
INS seems to pick and choose whom they are going to investigate. I
wonder how they do this.
My daughter works in a touristy type restaurant with about 160
employees. Early last month *50* of them were told they need to
provide legitimate social security numbers as theirs had come back
from the SSA as being bogus. They had to submit these by 10/4 or be
fired. No one was. What she thinks they did was just get new bogus
cards and submit those. It will take a long time for them to be
vetted and determined illegitimate once again. The manager isn't
exactly hard on these people as he recruited illegals from Mexican
restaurants when the place opened 25 years ago. He obviously has no
problem with this. Daughter says that he can get them to do anything
because they are indebted to him. For one thing most of them work in
the kitchen and are paid much less than if they were working in some
other restaurant. This isn't below minimum wage. She tells me that
after years of working the cooks may get $9.50 p/hr whereas they could
make $12 to $15 p/hr if they were legal and working somewhere else.

Sue
Post by Kitty
Kitty II
Sue
2003-10-28 07:23:31 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:43:49 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
It would be voluntary. If they don't want to split up their families
then they should stay home - Mexico.
Sue
Gunner
2003-10-28 09:18:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:43:49 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
Sounds like their own personal choice to me. Or are you in the
practice of shanghaiing laborers and bringing them to the US? If
they want a nuclear family, they can stay the fuck home.
Your spew sounds like left wing Socialism to me.

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Oliver Costich
2003-10-28 13:55:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:43:49 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by kitty
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be
desirable
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's
family
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
values programs.
No, Granny, mom and the kids stay in Mexico and Dad sends his money
home. They can buy more with that money there and unburden our
educational, medical and social services. Sounds like a good deal all
the way around. Dubya's family values programs are aimed at US
families - not Mexico families.
Sue
Let's see. Mom & kids in Mexico, dad in US. Sounds like a busted up family
to me. Guess it's OK as long as it's a Mexican one. Sounds like right wing
fundy logic to me.
Sure , bring 'em all here. Never mind the costs to taxpayers or the
impacts on the society (TB, crime, drunk driving come to mind).
Gunner
2003-10-28 09:16:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
Actually, as the Bracero Programs of the past showed..the worker would
come North, work and send his Giros (money orders) home to Momma and
the ninos. $200 USD each week goes a VERY long way in Mexico, and they
dont have the USD expenses to pay for the entire family. Granny can
live right well on that sort of money. I take it you never spent any
time in Mexico? Then you should really shut the fuck up, or do a bit
of traveling and learn, not emote. Granny comes with the rest of the
family currently, gets on Medicaid, welfare, and she and the rest of
the family sucks off the US taxpayers. The only one benifiting from
having the entire family group leeching off the taxpayer..is the
people renting them the house and those in the Mercado (grocery
stores)..at least those that take foodstamp coupons and WIC vouchers.

You want to make sure that Granny doesnt eat catfood? Contribute out
of your own pocket, and keep you hands out of mine, else you will
reach in, and pull back a bloody stump.

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Oliver Costich
2003-10-28 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
Let's not bust up the families. Let them all stay home.
strabo
2003-10-28 22:25:01 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:31:46 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Sue
Post by Gunner
Post by kitty
illegals???
kitty
I thought you were claiming it was Manditory? As to why not drop a
dime..you make need the services of an illegal. On principle..Im dead
set against illegals. But Im pragmatist enough to realize that the
productive ones do serve a function. Id be tickled to see a decent
guest worker program put into place. The productive ones are not the
drain on society that the welfare drones are,
Usually one and the same. A good percentage of the illegals get some
welfare benes for their citizen children during the winter months and
MediCal (MedicAid) year round.
Sue - also for a Bracero type program - leave the family at home so
they *don't* have babies here for whom to get welfare
Post by Gunner
and the non productive
welfare drones would be shipped out of the country.
I should mention, that I work as a technician, repairing machine tools
etc in machine shops in Southern California, Arizona, Texas and as
such, work with and in direct contact with Latinos in machine shops
etc daily. Few of them are illegal, but even those with counterfeit
paper are hard working and productive taxpayers. On the other hand..I
do NOT approve of them having moved their entire families, grandma,
grandpa, Tia y Tio etc up north and THEY are the ones putting the
drain on the public coffers and services. And they should be sent
home, until either the workers can fund them 100%, or they become
productive and pay their own way.
Yeah, let's bust up those families. Granny can stay home and eat cat fat
food. Mom and the kids can turn tricks. Ties right in with Dubya's family
values programs.
Staying in their country will eventially incite the Mexicans to
educate themselves and rid themselves of their tyrants. Using
the US as an overflow only worsens the US and Mexican problems.

Notroll2004
2003-10-27 23:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations.
They
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is
that
Post by TNSAF
it
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to
do
Post by TNSAF
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is a
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
Why? So they can clean your house, watch your kids and pick your lettuce
without burdening good Republicans with paying such things as minimum wage,
social security and workers compensation.
Strider
2003-10-28 00:45:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:29:01 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations.
They
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the
Feds.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are
duty
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is
that
Post by TNSAF
it
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to
do
Post by TNSAF
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is
a
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
Why? So they can clean your house, watch your kids and pick your lettuce
without burdening good Republicans with paying such things as minimum wage,
social security and workers compensation.
First you want to send them back. Now you want to keep them?

Yup, you are just another troll, and a piss poor one at that.

*plink*

Strider
Notroll2004
2003-10-28 01:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:29:01 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations.
They
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the
Feds.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are
duty
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is
that
Post by TNSAF
it
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to
do
Post by TNSAF
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is
a
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
Why? So they can clean your house, watch your kids and pick your lettuce
without burdening good Republicans with paying such things as minimum wage,
social security and workers compensation.
First you want to send them back. Now you want to keep them?
Yup, you are just another troll, and a piss poor one at that.
*plink*
Stride
Plink? Are you gay?
Gunner
2003-10-28 09:28:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:44:55 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:29:01 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by
outside
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the
violations.
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
They
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the
Feds.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are
duty
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is
that
Post by TNSAF
it
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it
to
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
do
Post by TNSAF
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there
is
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
a
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable
and
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to
report
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
illegals???
kitty
Why? So they can clean your house, watch your kids and pick your lettuce
without burdening good Republicans with paying such things as minimum
wage,
Post by Strider
Post by Blade
social security and workers compensation.
First you want to send them back. Now you want to keep them?
Yup, you are just another troll, and a piss poor one at that.
*plink*
Stride
Plink? Are you gay?
Just a heads up, as it appears you are Usenet challenged.

When someone is a pain in the ass, and has made themselves a pest, you
plonk them. When the individual in question is the equivilent of a
pesky bluebottle fly, in search of a dungpile in which to breed, (such
as yourself), a simple and off hand plink indicates your distain and
unconcern for their buzzing around, as you simply swat the little
critter and get rid of it.

Look elsewhere for your dung heap.


Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Oliver Costich
2003-10-28 14:00:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:29:01 -0600, "Notroll2004"
Post by Blade
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:33:55 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:38:23 GMT, "TNSAF"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor
sub-contractors.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The
Associated
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations.
They
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart
executives,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
managers
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so
knowingly!
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you
required
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
to
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the
Feds.
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are
duty
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
bound
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is
that
Post by TNSAF
it
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
is
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
Duty and legality are not the same thing.
So, what requires me to turn in illegal aliens?
You broached the subject, indicated that I was somehow required to
report the crime, so, by what statute am I required to do this?
Why don't you contact INS and find out? I don't know the precise
statute,
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
and am not inclined to research it because I don't need to know it to
do
Post by TNSAF
my
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
own narcing. You are the one who asked the question as to if there is
a
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by Irony Alert
requirement to report one to the feds.
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Of course it's not MANDATORY, but I should think it would be desirable and
in the best interest of this COUNTRY! WHY wouldn't someone want to report
illegals???
kitty
Why? So they can clean your house, watch your kids and pick your lettuce
without burdening good Republicans with paying such things as minimum wage,
social security and workers compensation.
Check the archives. The " no one else will do the job" has been
debunked here ad nauseum
unknown
2003-10-27 22:13:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
***@flashmail.com says...

<snip>
Post by strabo
You made an extraordinary claim implying that a citizen is
required by law to drop a dime whenever there is the possible
suspicion of a crime.
Americans know that such an unconstitutional law is null and
void.
Not in Ashcroft's America.

FW
Sue
2003-10-25 02:24:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
In my job I frequently deal with illegal aliens although not as much
as my bi-lingual co-workers. I know their names, addresses, dob's.,
places of employment (if they work). I work for the county and am
under no obligation to report them.
Sue
j***@.
2003-10-25 02:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
In my job I frequently deal with illegal aliens although not as much
as my bi-lingual co-workers. I know their names, addresses, dob's.,
places of employment (if they work). I work for the county and am
under no obligation to report them.
Sue
You are wrong. Federal law over rules state law, and one day you will
find this out.

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local
government) commits a federal felony when he:

* assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in
the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting,
sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to
an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.


http://207.188.212.158/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1195&c=13
Sue
2003-10-25 02:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@.
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
In my job I frequently deal with illegal aliens although not as much
as my bi-lingual co-workers. I know their names, addresses, dob's.,
places of employment (if they work). I work for the county and am
under no obligation to report them.
Sue
You are wrong. Federal law over rules state law, and one day you will
find this out.
No, I'm not under the circumstances of my job. FYI we used to report
these people to INS and nothing was ever done. Our reason for doing
this was to verify that they weren't here legally - not to turn them.
in.
Post by j***@.
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local
* assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in
the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting,
sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,
I don't transport, shelter or assist him/her in employment.
Post by j***@.
* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to
an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
I do none of those things. The feds know perfectly well what we do in
our job. Hell, they give us money to do it.
Sue
Post by j***@.
http://207.188.212.158/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=1195&c=13
Irony Alert
2003-10-25 02:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Keep waiting for me and you'll suffocate.
The term "illegal alien" is implicit of the crime, which you are duty bound
as a citizen to report them. The important factor to remember is that it is
hardly enforced unless a scandal occurs.
In my job I frequently deal with illegal aliens although not as much
as my bi-lingual co-workers. I know their names, addresses, dob's.,
places of employment (if they work). I work for the county and am
under no obligation to report them.
Sue
That's your choice. If I know one is illegally present then I will narc
his/her ass out without a moments hesitation. If they want to come to
America, then let them immigrate legally.
--
Felony case "02-CR-0617 9/1/03: Oregon Department of
Justice V. Raymond Ronald Karczewski, Defendant."

"The defendant's name is NOT copyrighted."
Sue
2003-10-25 02:56:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:38:26 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
In my job I frequently deal with illegal aliens although not as much
as my bi-lingual co-workers. I know their names, addresses, dob's.,
places of employment (if they work). I work for the county and am
under no obligation to report them.
Sue
That's your choice. If I know one is illegally present then I will narc
his/her ass out without a moments hesitation. If they want to come to
America, then let them immigrate legally.
Fine by me. As I said in another post we used to turn their names and
addresses into INS and INS did nothing. I expect if you turned them
in the result would be the same. Have you ever tried it? I'm not
asking to be bitchy I'm really curious. INS seems to only act when
*they* want to. Many years ago my son-in-law and daughter managed a
TacoBell/Baskins Robbins in Juneau, AK. They hadn't been doing this
for very long and had, unbeknownst to them, several illegal Mexicans
working for them. INS made a big sweep of the area and my sil and
daughter lost several of their employees - their *best* employees.
Sil and daughter were *not* fined, arrested or anything else. IIRC
the SE Alaska area netted INS about 750 illegals.
Sue
Irony Alert
2003-10-25 04:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:38:26 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by Irony Alert
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:46:27 GMT, "Irony Alert"
In my job I frequently deal with illegal aliens although not as much
as my bi-lingual co-workers. I know their names, addresses, dob's.,
places of employment (if they work). I work for the county and am
under no obligation to report them.
Sue
That's your choice. If I know one is illegally present then I will narc
his/her ass out without a moments hesitation. If they want to come to
America, then let them immigrate legally.
Fine by me. As I said in another post we used to turn their names and
addresses into INS and INS did nothing. I expect if you turned them
in the result would be the same. Have you ever tried it? I'm not
asking to be bitchy I'm really curious. INS seems to only act when
*they* want to. Many years ago my son-in-law and daughter managed a
TacoBell/Baskins Robbins in Juneau, AK. They hadn't been doing this
for very long and had, unbeknownst to them, several illegal Mexicans
working for them. INS made a big sweep of the area and my sil and
daughter lost several of their employees - their *best* employees.
Sil and daughter were *not* fined, arrested or anything else. IIRC
the SE Alaska area netted INS about 750 illegals.
Sue
I've never run into any illegals, at least none that were apparently so.
I'm merely citing my own personal policy were I to be privy to discovery of
an illegal alien. It isn't like they would advertise the fact and the only
way I can see actually learning that a given individual's (or group's)
status is illegal is by accident or idiocy (such as witnessing the sale of
green cards, overhearing someone who hired them, or discovering phony
documentation.)

Geez, illegals in Alaska?
--
Felony case "02-CR-0617 9/1/03: Oregon Department of
Justice V. Raymond Ronald Karczewski, Defendant."

"The defendant's name is NOT copyrighted."
Tiny Human Ferret
2003-10-26 14:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Irony Alert wrote:

<snips>
Post by Irony Alert
Geez, illegals in Alaska?
Yeah, actually there are quite a lot of them on the fishing boats.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
2003-10-25 04:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
INS made a big sweep of the area and my sil and
daughter lost several of their employees - their *best* employees.
Sil and daughter were *not* fined, arrested or anything else. IIRC
the SE Alaska area netted INS about 750 illegals.
Sue
They just scratched the surface, then. Most of them are in some part
of the fishing industry, or recently out of it. If you can work 16-18
straight hours on a slime line without cutting your own fingers off,
the fish processors don't really give a shit if you're even from this
*planet*.

--
V.G.

"People are more violently opposed to fur than leather, because it is easier to harrass
rich women than it is motorcycle gangs." - Bumper Sticker
(This sig file contains not less than 80% recycled SPAM)

Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.
Sue
2003-10-25 05:18:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:46:30 -0800, "Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)"
Post by Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
Post by Sue
INS made a big sweep of the area and my sil and
daughter lost several of their employees - their *best* employees.
Sil and daughter were *not* fined, arrested or anything else. IIRC
the SE Alaska area netted INS about 750 illegals.
Sue
They just scratched the surface, then. Most of them are in some part
of the fishing industry, or recently out of it. If you can work 16-18
straight hours on a slime line without cutting your own fingers off,
the fish processors don't really give a shit if you're even from this
*planet*.
We used to live near Homer and I know that the Mexican restaurant
there had illegals working in the kitchen. Every now and again there
would be great panic when they got deported. I can understand what
you're saying about the fishing industry. Nasty jobs.
Sue
Jeff McCann
2003-10-25 10:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:46:30 -0800, "Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)"
Post by Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
Post by Sue
INS made a big sweep of the area and my sil and
daughter lost several of their employees - their *best* employees.
Sil and daughter were *not* fined, arrested or anything else. IIRC
the SE Alaska area netted INS about 750 illegals.
Sue
They just scratched the surface, then. Most of them are in some part
of the fishing industry, or recently out of it. If you can work 16-18
straight hours on a slime line without cutting your own fingers off,
the fish processors don't really give a shit if you're even from this
*planet*.
We used to live near Homer and I know that the Mexican restaurant
there had illegals working in the kitchen. Every now and again there
would be great panic when they got deported. I can understand what
you're saying about the fishing industry. Nasty jobs.
Sue
There's a lot of construction going on where I work as a paramedic.
There's plenty of illegals employed by various subs. I picked up one
who was drunk and beaten up. He was deported back to Mexico. I saw him
a month later. He was drunk and had totaled a car. He was also back on
the same job, had false ID, etc. It's like trying to bail the Titanic
with a Dixie cup. Oh, well . . .

Jeff
Sue
2003-10-25 14:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff McCann
Post by Sue
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:46:30 -0800, "Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)"
Post by Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
Post by Sue
INS made a big sweep of the area and my sil and
daughter lost several of their employees - their *best* employees.
Sil and daughter were *not* fined, arrested or anything else. IIRC
the SE Alaska area netted INS about 750 illegals.
Sue
They just scratched the surface, then. Most of them are in some part
of the fishing industry, or recently out of it. If you can work
16-18
Post by Sue
Post by Vanilla Gorilla (Monkey Boy)
straight hours on a slime line without cutting your own fingers off,
the fish processors don't really give a shit if you're even from this
*planet*.
We used to live near Homer and I know that the Mexican restaurant
there had illegals working in the kitchen. Every now and again there
would be great panic when they got deported. I can understand what
you're saying about the fishing industry. Nasty jobs.
Sue
There's a lot of construction going on where I work as a paramedic.
There's plenty of illegals employed by various subs. I picked up one
who was drunk and beaten up. He was deported back to Mexico. I saw him
a month later. He was drunk and had totaled a car. He was also back on
the same job, had false ID, etc. It's like trying to bail the Titanic
with a Dixie cup. Oh, well . . .
I used to know this young lady who had several children by an illegal
from El Salvador. Every time he wanted to go home and visit his
family down there he would manage to get "caught" for the free one-way
trip. He'd always manage to get back up here. He did this at least
twice that I know of.
Sue
Post by Jeff McCann
Jeff
Bob G
2003-10-26 01:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff McCann
There's a lot of construction going on where I work as a paramedic.
There's plenty of illegals employed by various subs. I picked up one
who was drunk and beaten up. He was deported back to Mexico. I saw him
a month later. He was drunk and had totaled a car. He was also back on
the same job, had false ID, etc. It's like trying to bail the Titanic
with a Dixie cup. Oh, well . . .
Jeff
Chuckle, yep there are those of that sort. Problem children. Tho, in
certain areas of the construction biz the "problem children" are as
often white, and legal, as not.

In certain types of work, the employer doesn't even ask if yah have a
drug problem. Doesn't care, doesn't even want to know. Go up to him
and say, "Hey, I'm looking for work. Lost my last job after I got
busted. Had to do 30 days in lockup."

Often enough, employer in certain types of biz will look at guy saying
that and reply, "Who gives a rip? Why are yah telling me this? All I
want to know is can yah do this job. My rule is, no drinking or drugs
on the job, what yah do after work is none of my friggin business and
I don't want to know."

I know a guy who lives down the road who is an example. Has no place
of his own. But his brother and sister in law let him live in the
basement. He's got a bedroom set up down there. The guy is an
alcoholic. Tho now he is trying, once again, to dry up. As far as I
know, he's been dry now for longer than ever before, about a year. So
I hope he stays successful.

Anyway, a while back when he was hitting the bottle way too much, he
was a regular visitor to the Cross Bar Hotel. Routinely he called his
employer instead of family to come bail him out. And employer would.
Finally things got bad, had his vehicle confiscated and he was locked
up for I don't know how long. Don't know him that well, know his
brother mostly, but it was months. The guy could get out each work
day to go to work. So every morning there was a pickup waiting
outside with the sign on it's side saying the truck belonged to this
particular concrete company. Guy was let out of lockup, climbed into
truck and was off to work. Each evening a truck brought him back. He
was required to have signed note in hand saying when he'd gotten off
work, and where he'd been working. So guards could check time he came
in and see that he'd gone straight from job site back to jail. When
he finally got out of jail, couldn't drive as his driver's license was
taken away and he's gotta wait 2 years to get it back again. If he
can, he's gotta stay dry for the two years. But every working day a
pickup, dump truck, or crete truck from the company pulls up at his
brother's home to pick guy up for work. Same will drop him off after
work that day.

Why? Because he's a good concrete man. And does the most physically
brutal and demanding, hardest, dirtiest part of the jobs. And is good
at it. Exceptional. When he's working he doesn't complain, jumps in
there and humps and is still going as strong as when he started after
others have started to fall over from exhaustion. Or slowed way the
heck down. And he'll do his task to perfection every time.

The employer of this fellow has a damn hard time finding good men to
do this sort of work. Who'll stick and stay around. It's a non-union
shop, but the employer does not pay badly. I know he pays this
particular fellow $22 an hr. Not bad, especially considering the guy
is a HS dropout.

<Shrug> This sort of thing is not uncommon in the various construction
trades. If the guy is good at what he does, and most especially if
it's one of those jobs that involves some particularly brutal, hard
physical work that most people don't want to do. Especially don't want
to do as one's regular job, year in and year out. An employer often
puts up with said employee being a "problem child".

I happen to know of a firm, a general contractor in the construction
biz, who employs some "questionable" people. Maybe that's the wrong
term, as that employer does not ask many questions of a certain group
of employees. These are some folks specifically hired to do
construction cleanup chores. During construction, at various times
this crew will come in and do some cleaning up. And at the end of the
project the new building looks like crap, scraps, dust, and debris
everywhere. Nice new windows have crap all over them. Rock dust
everywhere. Paint overspray that needs to be fixed. Floors cleaned
and polished. Etc. Etc. Towards end of construction as sections of
building are completed these folks show up. At night. For one,
they're not union. For a second reason, I think their foreman is the
only one of the bunch who speaks English.

Now, I've never asked. But there is a fair to middling chance there
is an illegal or two in that crowd. <G>

The cleanup people are sometimes still there in the mornings, still
packing away their cleaning gear and such, when the regular
construction guys show up. I've noticed the construction guys simply
ignore them and pretend they're not even there.

They don't want to ask about those cleaning folks, don't wanna know.
Among other things those folks are non-union. And the construction
jobs I mention where they show up are union jobs. So if guy asked and
got told truth, he'd sorta be obligated to blow the whistle. So he
ain't asking.

As I heard one fellow, a journeyman pipefitter tell his young
apprentice one day when his apprentice mentioned "those folks". Older
fellow answered. "They ain't here kid. Let it drop. Hell, they got
families to feed. And none of us want that job. So let it drop.
They aren't here ... they're supposed to be gone before we get here,
anyway."

The fact is, Jeff, and I see this all the time in several sorts of
businesses ... that there are a lot of jobs that native born and
raised Americans don't want. I've talked to employers who, for some
sorts of jobs, can't find anybody who'll take em, except short term.
If then. Except, immigrants and illegals.

Heck, in the not too distant future the immigrants may also be taking
over the skilled, good paying trades jobs. I don't know how it is
everywhere. But do know a few places where the local situation is
such that employers can't find enough skilled pipe fitters, plumbers,
welders, electricians, etc. Not new ones entering the training
pipeline and doing apprentice level work. It has some of them
worried. Right now they still have the old hands, so they have
manpower. But not enough new folks are entering the trades. And the
jobs of which I speak, pay well, if you finish the schooling, do the
apprenticeship, etc. But a lot of our young folks don't want to get
their hands dirty, or work up a sweat. Or work outside when it's
cold. Etc.

Not that this bothers me. The way I see it, if somebody doesn't want
to do the job, that's their problem. Heck with it, let someone else
take the job, who doesn't mind the work, even if it's hard and yah get
dirty doing it, and is perfectly willing to make a nice paycheck doing
it.

Bob
Burp
2003-10-26 01:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob G
Post by Jeff McCann
There's a lot of construction going on where I work as a paramedic.
There's plenty of illegals employed by various subs. I picked up one
who was drunk and beaten up. He was deported back to Mexico. I saw him
a month later. He was drunk and had totaled a car. He was also back on
the same job, had false ID, etc. It's like trying to bail the Titanic
with a Dixie cup. Oh, well . . .
Jeff
Chuckle, yep there are those of that sort. Problem children. Tho, in
certain areas of the construction biz the "problem children" are as
often white, and legal, as not.
In certain types of work, the employer doesn't even ask if yah have a
drug problem. Doesn't care, doesn't even want to know. Go up to him
and say, "Hey, I'm looking for work. Lost my last job after I got
busted. Had to do 30 days in lockup."
Often enough, employer in certain types of biz will look at guy saying
that and reply, "Who gives a rip? Why are yah telling me this? All I
want to know is can yah do this job. My rule is, no drinking or drugs
on the job, what yah do after work is none of my friggin business and
I don't want to know."
I know a guy who lives down the road who is an example. Has no place
of his own. But his brother and sister in law let him live in the
basement. He's got a bedroom set up down there. The guy is an
alcoholic. Tho now he is trying, once again, to dry up. As far as I
know, he's been dry now for longer than ever before, about a year. So
I hope he stays successful.
Anyway, a while back when he was hitting the bottle way too much, he
was a regular visitor to the Cross Bar Hotel. Routinely he called his
employer instead of family to come bail him out. And employer would.
Finally things got bad, had his vehicle confiscated and he was locked
up for I don't know how long. Don't know him that well, know his
brother mostly, but it was months. The guy could get out each work
day to go to work. So every morning there was a pickup waiting
outside with the sign on it's side saying the truck belonged to this
particular concrete company. Guy was let out of lockup, climbed into
truck and was off to work. Each evening a truck brought him back. He
was required to have signed note in hand saying when he'd gotten off
work, and where he'd been working. So guards could check time he came
in and see that he'd gone straight from job site back to jail. When
he finally got out of jail, couldn't drive as his driver's license was
taken away and he's gotta wait 2 years to get it back again. If he
can, he's gotta stay dry for the two years. But every working day a
pickup, dump truck, or crete truck from the company pulls up at his
brother's home to pick guy up for work. Same will drop him off after
work that day.
Why? Because he's a good concrete man. And does the most physically
brutal and demanding, hardest, dirtiest part of the jobs. And is good
at it. Exceptional. When he's working he doesn't complain, jumps in
there and humps and is still going as strong as when he started after
others have started to fall over from exhaustion. Or slowed way the
heck down. And he'll do his task to perfection every time.
The employer of this fellow has a damn hard time finding good men to
do this sort of work. Who'll stick and stay around. It's a non-union
shop, but the employer does not pay badly. I know he pays this
particular fellow $22 an hr. Not bad, especially considering the guy
is a HS dropout.
<Shrug> This sort of thing is not uncommon in the various construction
trades. If the guy is good at what he does, and most especially if
it's one of those jobs that involves some particularly brutal, hard
physical work that most people don't want to do. Especially don't want
to do as one's regular job, year in and year out. An employer often
puts up with said employee being a "problem child".
I happen to know of a firm, a general contractor in the construction
biz, who employs some "questionable" people. Maybe that's the wrong
term, as that employer does not ask many questions of a certain group
of employees. These are some folks specifically hired to do
construction cleanup chores. During construction, at various times
this crew will come in and do some cleaning up. And at the end of the
project the new building looks like crap, scraps, dust, and debris
everywhere. Nice new windows have crap all over them. Rock dust
everywhere. Paint overspray that needs to be fixed. Floors cleaned
and polished. Etc. Etc. Towards end of construction as sections of
building are completed these folks show up. At night. For one,
they're not union. For a second reason, I think their foreman is the
only one of the bunch who speaks English.
Now, I've never asked. But there is a fair to middling chance there
is an illegal or two in that crowd. <G>
The cleanup people are sometimes still there in the mornings, still
packing away their cleaning gear and such, when the regular
construction guys show up. I've noticed the construction guys simply
ignore them and pretend they're not even there.
They don't want to ask about those cleaning folks, don't wanna know.
Among other things those folks are non-union. And the construction
jobs I mention where they show up are union jobs. So if guy asked and
got told truth, he'd sorta be obligated to blow the whistle. So he
ain't asking.
As I heard one fellow, a journeyman pipefitter tell his young
apprentice one day when his apprentice mentioned "those folks". Older
fellow answered. "They ain't here kid. Let it drop. Hell, they got
families to feed. And none of us want that job. So let it drop.
They aren't here ... they're supposed to be gone before we get here,
anyway."
The fact is, Jeff, and I see this all the time in several sorts of
businesses ... that there are a lot of jobs that native born and
raised Americans don't want. I've talked to employers who, for some
sorts of jobs, can't find anybody who'll take em, except short term.
If then. Except, immigrants and illegals.
Heck, in the not too distant future the immigrants may also be taking
over the skilled, good paying trades jobs. I don't know how it is
everywhere. But do know a few places where the local situation is
such that employers can't find enough skilled pipe fitters, plumbers,
welders, electricians, etc. Not new ones entering the training
pipeline and doing apprentice level work. It has some of them
worried. Right now they still have the old hands, so they have
manpower. But not enough new folks are entering the trades. And the
jobs of which I speak, pay well, if you finish the schooling, do the
apprenticeship, etc. But a lot of our young folks don't want to get
their hands dirty, or work up a sweat. Or work outside when it's
cold. Etc.
Not that this bothers me. The way I see it, if somebody doesn't want
to do the job, that's their problem. Heck with it, let someone else
take the job, who doesn't mind the work, even if it's hard and yah get
dirty doing it, and is perfectly willing to make a nice paycheck doing
it.
Bob
Are you a communist? Our economic system is based upon supply and demand. If
the supply is short and the demand is there then a balance is reached via
the money and benefits offered. Using illegal aliens destroys the
supply/demand equation.

I KNOW that the elites use supply/demand to their benefit constantly. Is
there something immoral or illegal for the laboring class to benefit from
supply/demand? The elites have used propaganda to convince many of the
masses that it is.

Using illegal labor and usurping the supply/demand equation is communistic
and anti-American.

Of course, if you DO want to destroy the supply/demand system then we MUST
import foreign CEOs that will work ofr $100,000 yearly vice $50,000,000 and
all the professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. will have to have
their wages brought down by the importaion of millions of aliens with those
skills.




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Sue
2003-10-26 02:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burp
Of course, if you DO want to destroy the supply/demand system then we MUST
import foreign CEOs that will work ofr $100,000 yearly vice $50,000,000 and
all the professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. will have to have
their wages brought down by the importaion of millions of aliens with those
skills.
In the town in which I live a good many of the doctors are foreign
born and they charge the same as the US born doctors do.
Sue
Graphic Queen
2003-10-26 03:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
Post by Burp
Of course, if you DO want to destroy the supply/demand system then we MUST
import foreign CEOs that will work ofr $100,000 yearly vice $50,000,000 and
all the professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. will have to have
their wages brought down by the importaion of millions of aliens with those
skills.
In the town in which I live a good many of the doctors are foreign
born and they charge the same as the US born doctors do.
Sue
Yeah, I find the same thing that Sue has mentioned. The doctors from
out of the country charge as much as American born ones do.

GQ
Burp
2003-10-26 05:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graphic Queen
Post by Sue
Post by Burp
Of course, if you DO want to destroy the supply/demand system then we MUST
import foreign CEOs that will work ofr $100,000 yearly vice $50,000,000 and
all the professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. will have to have
their wages brought down by the importaion of millions of aliens with those
skills.
In the town in which I live a good many of the doctors are foreign
born and they charge the same as the US born doctors do.
Sue
Yeah, I find the same thing that Sue has mentioned. The doctors from
out of the country charge as much as American born ones do.
GQ
Then we need to import 50 million so that the supply outstrips demand. Just
as it is with America's working poor doing the grunt jobs.




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Jim Dauven
2003-10-25 00:36:21 UTC
Permalink
I wonder how many of these illegal are working being paid under the
table.

I once saw the employees of the Union Packing Company in Las Angles,
collecting their weeks pay, and every employee came out of the personnel
office with a wad of bills that they stuck in to their pocket. I bet
not a dime of taxes, unemployment insurance, Social Security or
workman's
Comp was paid for the whole bunch.

I mean how you going to prove they worked for you and if they didn't
work
for you why do they need a green card.

I mean every body and their uncle hires illegals in California, Arizona,
Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas. Every body has a landscaper, handy man
maid, child care worker, that's an illegal. They all know what's going
on but they don't give a dammed because they are working the system just
like the Illegals.

The Independent
Bob G
2003-10-26 21:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burp
Post by Bob G
Not that this bothers me. The way I see it, if somebody doesn't want
to do the job, that's their problem. Heck with it, let someone else
take the job, who doesn't mind the work, even if it's hard and yah get
dirty doing it, and is perfectly willing to make a nice paycheck doing
it.
Bob
Are you a communist? Our economic system is based upon supply and demand. If
the supply is short and the demand is there then a balance is reached via
the money and benefits offered. Using illegal aliens destroys the
supply/demand equation.
ROFLMAO !

Geez, guy, have you a reading comprehension problem? Or are you doing
as all too many others do. Watching something or reading something
and picking out only the bits and pieces you agree with. Or only the
bits and pieces you disagree with, so you have an excuse to be angry.

You might benefit from actually paying attention to all the facts and
points presented, before jumping to conclusions.

First off. What have yah been smoking? What did I write that even
hinted that I might be a communist? I know modern communism does not
work worth a damn, for long. To start with, it violates the normal
human tendencies and psychology. Many humans are perfectly willing to
"share" equally with close family and close friends. The reason that
a communal/communist system has worked reasonably well in many parts
of the world at the small village/small extended family clan level
since the dawn of mankind. For say ... 20 to 100 people or so. Who
feel close ties and bonds with the others. And remain in that group
voluntarily. But I don't personally believe that real communism can
ever work outside of that context.

A far different thing from some "government" demanding and forcing me
to "share" with people I do not know; will never meet; of unknown
quality of character and morals to me; who will most likely never do
one damn thing for me in return for what I do for them, etc.

I am not an evil and selfish man. I work hard and get paid well for
what I do because I do it well enough to be worth every friggin penny
my employer pays me. And it doesn't bother me to work hard and share
my good fortune with family and special, close friends. I also
volunteer both my time, sweat, and cash to particular (of my choosing)
people in need, charities, etc. Nor do I mind the money deducted from
my pay to aid the truly handicapped, disabled, and so forth.

But a communist, as that term is known and used by most people ... Me?
Not a chance. I work hard for MINE ... my extended family clan. Try
to force me to work and redistribute more of my income than I'm
willing to part with to others ... and I'll either quite working, or
work a whole lot less hard and well. You'd get my minimum effort.
And it's likely I'd do exactly like many did in the old USSR. Do the
minimum at my regular job, and on the side and off the books do other
things to bring in more money or needed items for my family and close
friends.
Post by Burp
I KNOW that the elites use supply/demand to their benefit constantly. Is
there something immoral or illegal for the laboring class to benefit from
supply/demand? The elites have used propaganda to convince many of the
masses that it is.
I haven't a friggin clue what you're talking about here. What friggin
elites? I don't know any elites. I acknowledge no elites.

Any man I know or know of, is not any better than I am, not in any way
more elite than I am, puts on his pants one leg at a time just as I
do, etc. I kow-tow, and bow to no one.

In my world, elites do not exist.

At my work, which is a company of some success, a partnership owned by
a family and some related to that family by blood or long freindship
and mutual cooperation. I don't act towards the president of that
company as if he's some sort of elite or royalty. He's just a friggin
man, like I am. Some things he does better than I, some things he
knows which I don't. But the vice-versa is also true.

Okay, he's worth many millions. So what? It's his money, not mine.
He's never cheated me. I would not allow it. I am hired because he
needs me and the things I do well. And is willing to pay me what I
figure my labor is worth. If he did not, I'd be saying "Bye."
Because I know that I can go elsewhere and get the pay I want for my
work. I quite deliberately choose what I do.

Not enough pay on the going market for my particular skills? Hmmm,
must be time to either upgrade my skills into some area which pays
more. Or make a decision. Decide I like the work which I do enough
to continue doing it despite the fact I could make more doing
something else. Or strike out on my own and start my own business, to
see if I can make more money doing what I do in my own business. Or
change professions.

There is nothing, in this country, that prevents me from doing any of
those things. NOTHING. If I'm capable of doing it, and put forth the
suitable effort, and have enough brains to carry it off (am as smart
as I think I am), I can do whatever of those choices I damn well
please. The only thing stopping me would be ... myself.

As it is, I don't wanna be a full time business man. Especially a big
business type. I don't wanna spend all my time with spreadsheets,
analyzing the bottom line, smoozing with prospective customers.
Worrying about minute details and wording of this or that contract,
legal repercussions and exposures. Dealing with endless volumes,
representing entire forests cut down to print, of local municipal,
county, state, and federal rules and regulations. More time smoozing
with politicians and people holding key positions in this or that
regulatory body. And so forth. Have done some of that. HATE it.

The big boss can have it. And he can have the money he earned by
dealing with such crap. Me, I like my work. I like what I do. I
want to do what I do, not what he does. I do what I do because I
found it interesting. It pays well enough so that I figure it's
"enough", I can live with the figures. I am paid well enough, more
than the average person, but am far from being rich. A long, long way
from it.

I and my family are comfortable. Have our home, and have a little
cabin on a lake which is not much, not big, not fancy ... but we're
happy with it. I can't afford a new Mercedes, but didn't want one,
anyway. Ain't me. By preference I'd rather have a pickup or regular
SUV, without all the fancy gadgets. I've had them before, didn't use
em. Just something extra to break down and need repairing or
replacement. And I could care less about impressing people.

My tastes and preferences are not expensive or fancy. Mostly my wife
and I enjoy most staying home and gardening, or doing a number of
crafts hobbies we have at home, good home cooking, canning our own
stuff done to our tastes, having friends visit our home or us visiting
theirs, going fishing, etc. If we go out at all, it's to what are
mostly smallish restaurants we enjoy, where we know most of the staff,
and most of the patrons. Or maybe buzz up to a small Indian Casino
that's remote from any big cities. Often taking close friends along.
And the atmosphere of said casino is slower paced and more laid back
than those most people are familiar with. And we know many of the
staff there and are friends with them. We go as much to chat and
socialize as anything else. It's entertainment, with a little
friendly gambling thrown in.

So I make enough, for my purposes. Plus some. Could make more, but
am not really interested. I like what I do. Actually enjoy it, even
on those days I'm cursing the job because things have gone wrong or
whatever. Fact is, I know how to make more money, and have no doubt I
could do it. But like what I do, and any extra time I have I'd rather
go fishing than to do the extra time, work, and effort to get rich.

<Shrug> I don't envy the big guy, the Boss. He can have what he does
and what he earns from doing it, I don't want it. One day when he was
harried he grumbled, "Want my job? You can have it." I just laughed
at him and said, "No way. You're stuck with it. I'd as soon have a
lobotomy. For all the money you've got, you haven't enough to get me
to take your job. Sorry, go find some other sucker." In our
interaction, I call him "Joe" and he calls me "Bob". We talk as
equals, I pay due repect to him, he does the same to me. I don't kiss
his ass and he doesn't expect me to do so. In fact he has reason to
know that if he tried to get me to do so, he'd get a kick instead of a
kiss. Piss me off, treat me in a way I think to be unfair, and I take
a walk. Simple as that.

Now, does he have a right to demand certains things from me, does he
have a right to certain expectations of me? Of course, he signs my
check. By accepting it, I have agreed to his demands and expectations.
He has a perfect right to demand I earn my check, at the rate he pays
me. If I don't like those demands and expectations, I'm free to walk.
And he's free to try to find someone else who is qualified and capable
of doing what I do. For the same or less money.

Obviously, he thinks that'd be hard to do. He keeps me around, and
keeps signing the checks.
Post by Burp
Using illegal labor and usurping the supply/demand equation is communistic
and anti-American.
Upsurping WHAT?

Was I not clear?

I quite purposely put in that line about the one union pipefitter's
comment for a reason. Because it was true. He and others were turning
a blind eye towards those construction cleanup people because they
KNEW ... no one else wanted that job. Not enough legals to fulfill
the demand, anyway.

And that's FACT, get over it.

I have no clue where yah live or what the economic conditions are
aroud where yah live.

Around here, however, while unemployment is higher than usual, it is
not high. By any means. And among many of those recently umemployed,
none of those jobs they held are coming back nor are they being given
to illegals. They're eliminated, gone, finis, obsolete, etc.

i.e. A one time network engineer I know. Who held a high paying job,
better paying than mine. His old job? It's simply gone. His
previous specialty is simply no longer needed. Not in the numbers it
used to be. Modern computer systems and networks have become easier
to use, more plug and play. A lot of things that used to require
calling upon a highly paid specialist to accomplish, are now done
automatically by machine. Or accomplished simply and easily by a user
following a simple set of instructions on his or her screen. Or it
requires one highly paid specialist instead of 10.

Of the sort of things which require a superior knowledge and skill in
his field, for which there was still jobs available, he'd not stayed
up with and current upon the latest and greatest. His knowledge set,
for which he could command high dollars ... is obsolete. Simple as
that.

These days he's a general purpose repairer of desk top computers, and
simple network administrator for a small school district. Making less
than half of what he used to make. But it is all his skills are worth
on the current market. There are bunches of folks who could do the
work of the level he's at now. It ain't rocket science when dealing
with modern systems. He's lucky he got that job. At least the
bennies are good. And his workload light during summer breaks.

Other unemployed folks I know.

Hmmm. Mostly it's people who had jobs where modern systems eliminated
the need for the job. Secretaries and clerks who used to do typing
and filing. Back when using a word processor was difficult and
required a steeper learning curve. Modern office applications are for
the most part so easy that it's quite common place for me to see
managers, lawyers, businessmen, salesmen, etc doing their own
paperwork. Or the bulk of it.

i.e. I was in the offices of a firm which maintains and sells access
and use of a sizeable fiber optic network loop, to business customers,
in a downtown area of a city. In one office area for that firm, there
are a lot of vacant cubicles, desks, etc. Curious, I asked one guy
about it. He was a senior salesman for the company. I wondered if
business was bad. He answered that No, it was quite good, actually.
The vacant desks and cubicles? Used to belong to staff who simply
weren't needed any more. Modern office systems had so simplified
things, made them easier and faster to do, that they had no need of a
large number of paper pushers, typists, file clerks, and so forth any
longer. No work for em to do. Now they had the 8 sales people who
could easily do most of the paperwork themselves. plus one gal who
handled overflow paperwork.

I knew what he was saying. Hell, the other day I made up a bid
proposal for a job myself. Which included the engineering drawings,
schematics, proposed sequence of operation to meet building owner's
specs and desires, proposed bill of materials, copies of description
and spec sheets from manufacturer of the materials I was proposing to
use, etc. A professional level proposal. Everything done neat and
exact, detailed items listed and/or drawn, of final print quality.
Took me about 2 days.

It's not a huge job, pretty mediocre. I'm bidding just short of
$100,000. Fact is that 10 or 12 years ago, I myself would have spent
much more than 2 days planning the project, and would have needed a
staff of several people to complete that bid package (it's a book in
final form) and would have taken a week at least to do all the details
I did alone in 2 days. 1 week if I pushed them double time and
expected em, and myself, to do some overtime.

Get my point?

Now can that computer, or any computer within the foreseeable future
replace Pete, a pipefitter who works for me, who is also a building
automation tech? Not even close. His job isn't in jeopardy nor
anything even close to being obsolete. Same story with his controls
electrician running mate. But I sure don't have the office staff I
would've had 12 years ago. Nor do I need them. If I get backed up a
bit, no sweat. I might well call Pete, or Mark from the field if
either has some extra time on their hands. Both are proficient in the
use of the CAD program, word processing, and spreadsheets. Have to
be, I require it. One of the reasons they got the jobs they have and
someone else didn't. I'm doing the preliminary work and planning and
layout. But if we get the bid, and do the work, there will be field
changes. There always are. It's inevitable and unavoidable, tho it
can be minimalized by good planning. Pete may look like a hairy
gorilla in a hard hat. And he certainly talks like the stereotypical
construction worker. But he has a good brain. And besides being a
top notch pipefitter, HVAC tech, and controls expert. He is more than
moderately proficient at CAD work, a pretty fair hand at programming
digital controllers, and is certified in using the MS Office
applications. Can even set up a small network for yah if need be.
Write up a nice batch file to do repetitive tasks. Etc.

He is a somewhat slow typist tho. I'd guess he's not better than
perhaps 30 WPM. And not so nice to look at as a pretty secretary.
But I don't need a pretty secretary who types fast. Will consider
hiring any ladies, however, who can weld or braze or thread pipe,
program a PLC or DDC controller, knows how to take a temperature and
humidity and calculate enthalphy, etc. If she's pretty, I'll consider
that a bonus for me. But it's more important that she be able to do
the aforementioned things. Simply a pretty face is easy to find, a
dime a dozen, and I won't pay much for someone who is simply pretty.
Gotta be able to do the job.

Hmmm. I know a guy who's a stamping press operator who is out of a
job. Now, his job did go south. After a fashion. At least the
machines he used to operate went south. Were bought up by some
company in Mexico.

Fact is, his employer was going out of business. The work they did
wasn't rocket science. Pretty basic parts making. Others making same
type of simple parts were making and selling em for less. The parts
just as good. No difference. Were not inferior in any way. But
others were making them cheaper than this guy's company.

How? Well, for one the equipment in this place was old, simple stuff.
Manpower intensive. And other US shops of the same sort had better,
more efficient, in terms of manpower needed, stuff. They could punch
out the parts faster, dip em, paint em, pack em, and ship em faster,
with fewer people. Then there was the "foreigners". Similar shops to
his in Indonesia, or Columbia, or whereever. Which had machines like
he used. But their labor costs were less.

This particular guy is no skilled machinest, or tin bender who could
be given a custom job to make. i.e. Hand such a drawing, or a spec
and he could figure out the mathematics needed, materials needed, etc
in order to make the item.

20 some-odd years on the job but the fellow I'm speaking of never
learned anything more than to operate that punch machine, following
instructions for a specific part made up by someone else who knew how
to figure out the best way to make that part using that machinery. In
fact, the guy can barely read. And his math skills are pretty much
limited to simple addition and subtraction. I know. Unfortunately he
asked me if the company I work for could use him, as we have a branch
which makes duct work for commercial HVAC systems. I asked him some
questions, simple ones, which he could not begin to answer. Problem
is our tin benders make custom ducting at each job. It's never the
same between two jobs. Workers have to know their stuff. Be able to
figure out the math and geometry, on the fly in the field, to make
things fit properly, do the right bend radius, and still maintain
rated flow called for by the specs with a head pressure set at
designed set point.

Nothing I could do for him.

He has a line on a new job. But it pays less than the $24 a hour he
made at the last job. Nor does it have the large number of vacation
days and paid holidays, very generous benefits, and so forth which his
last job had. A union job. And they went out on strike asking for
even more. Even tho the company was already having problems staying
in business and competing on the open market place. Thus, the company
folded. Closed the doors.

Last I talked to the fellow, he was thinking about the new job offer,
but as it paid less for people of his skill level (he was offered
about $16 a hr) and the bennies were not as good, he was planning to
just live on his unemployment for as long as it held out before really
trying to get another job.

His last task at the old company was to pack up and crate his old
press machines. Not worth much in the US at going prices. Not much
market for them. They'd been sold to some Mexican firm.

Hmmm. Just talked to a fellow yesterday who just got laid off. A
pitch layer. He gets laid off every winter when the pitch plants shut
down up this way, because it's too cold. He's not looking for
anything else. Said so. In fact he's been looking forward to the
seasonal layoff. Says that he now will have more time for the
important things. Beer drinking and watching the ball games. Lives
in Section 8 housing. The unemployment comp he gets is enough, for
him and his wife. Tho he says from time to time during the cold
season when he's laid off, when he feels like it, he'll do some
drywall work for a guy he knows. To earn some extra beer money. The
guy pays him cash, so he doesn't have to report it as extra income.
Otherwise he wouldn't bother. He was very talkative at the time. But
then, he was fairly drunk. I ran into him as I was helping out some
of his neighbors. An older couple on limited income, both partially
disabled. She's mostly disabled. The hubby works but at a low paying
job. Best he can get with his disability and skills. But he's proud
that he is still working. He doesn't like that fellow next door very
much. Can't figure out why the guy is drunk at 11 a.m. instead of
working since he's able.

Hmmm. I know a nurse's aid who is unemployed. But that is usual for
her. She intentionally plans her life that way. She works only until
she's earned unemployment again, then will deliberately do something
that'll get her fired while still letting her make a claim that it was
of no fault of her own. She's good at it, and knows 1001 tricks to
pull it off.

Frankly, I can't say I know much of anyone who is unemployed, for
long, if they really want to work. Except the truly disabled. Most
of the competent, willing to work for their money people I know don't
stay out of work very long.

Chuckle, a week or so back I did listen in on a conversation between a
couple low voltage electricians. The company for whom they worked had
a slow period coming up. Was gonna lay off the one guy, who was
junior for a couple months. Other fellow, a more experienced fellow,
a journeyman, said "Screw that. I want to get the layoff." Grabbed
his Nextel and called the boss. Said he wanted laid off instead of
younger fellow. When he hung up he told other guy, "It's a done
deal." And explained to younger fellow that now he, the older guy,
could do more hunting, fishing, etc as it was the season. And he
could get some things done around the house which he'd been putting
off. Heck, if someone got to go home and take some time off, he
wanted it.

In the meantime, I regularly hear guys who do business in various
trades, where the work can be tough, yah gotta be willing to sweat
like hell one day, freeze yer nuts the next, have GOOD skills with
hand tools, know the knowledge related to your trade well, and sport a
set of calouses on your hands ... who are looking for people willing
and able to do such work. Guys, or gals, who'll enter the field and
actually stay on the job, even when it gets miserable and hard.
Because that is part of the job. The jobs pay well, but if you're
gonna be a pussy about getting dirty, or developing blisters, or
getting sore muscles, or being hot one time and cold the next ... stay
home. The guys running such businesses will look elsewhere to find
those who are willing to do such work. And pay them. Decently, too.

Talking to them what I hear is that they are seeing fewer and fewer
young folks each year ... young, American born, white kids ...
applying for such jobs and sticking with it. So, more and more they
are turning to people like the immigrant community.
Post by Burp
Of course, if you DO want to destroy the supply/demand system then we MUST
import foreign CEOs that will work ofr $100,000 yearly vice $50,000,000 and
all the professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. will have to have
their wages brought down by the importaion of millions of aliens with those
skills.
ROFLMAO !

And you're calling me a communist?

Buddy, you sound like one, did you know that?

Me, I'm not bitching. I can and will stand on my own two feet and
compete fairly against anyone in my field of work. Show myself his or
her equal or better. If not, will shut my durn mouth. Because my
failure has nothing to do with that other person. If he or she is
better than I at something, that's simple fact. Blaming them for my
lacks makes no sense to me. Let the better man, or woman win.

Where in our Constitution does it guarantee equality of outcome?
Where does it guarantee one a nice, fat paycheck even if yah can't do
your job as well as the other person? Or simply won't, because you'd
rather goof off.

Where does it guarantee that your job is safe, will never change, will
never become obsolete, will never be unneeded ... or taken over by a
machine?

I do believe, at least it is my understanding, that the Constitution
and Bill of Rights are simply documents that say you have the right of
equality of opportunity and freedoms to do what you can and are
willing to do.

The rest is up to you.

Want that better paying job? Think you're worth it?

What's holding you back? Stop talking and bitching. And prove you're
as good as you think you are. Prove you can do what those you are
envious of and angry at are doing as well or better than they can. Or
at least stop whining.

Sheesh.

Talk about un-American. You would seem, if I understand you right, to
fit that image.

Our system is one originally built on the concept that you have the
right and freedom to go as far as you are capable of achieving and
have the desire for. Or doing as little as you wish. Up to you.

But you talk like a fellow who wants the government to step in and
MAKE employers pay you a certain amount, protect you from competition,
and so forth.

Hmmm. Sounds pretty Commie to me.

FWIW, the company for whom I work is a union company. But we aren't
whining. We think we're good at what we do, better than the
competition, and are willing to prove it. And do. Business-wise we
are doing well. Our strongest competitor, FWIW, is a non-union shop.
But the owner of it is sharp, pays his people well, and demands their
best. And they are good. The rest, union and non-union, <Shrug> Had
better shape up or one of the two of us are gonna take their work away
from em. The competitor I mentioned above is our only real
competitior in this area. And he's good, his men are good. He's got
my respect. Keeps us on our toes and sharp. The rest of the folks in
this area in our biz, are either wannabes, or has-beens.

Such is life. Some of those others have gotten out of the biz
altogether. Or have turned to residential work. Which we don't do.
Homeowners and such, 95% or better, don't know the difference between
good work and craftsmanship or bad. Mostly interested in the
cheapest. We're not interested in such business.

Those bad boys you allude to, the big guys, the bigger companies,
organizations, and corporations, however are usually willing to pay
extra for quality. They can be a pain in the ass, and very demanding,
but they'll pay well if you meet their demands and expectations.
They'll pay us what we think we're worth. And when we show we're
worth what they paid, we get repeat business from em.

It has been my observation that the most folks who demand the absolute
bottom line cheapest of whatever available ... are the average
individual homeowners. And small businesses hanging on by a nail, or
just starting up. Or the many fly by night businesses. Where guy
starts up business with no idea to stick around for the long haul.
He's out to make as much money as he can in the shortest possible
time. And will cut every corner, save every penny he can in the
process. Grow fast, make money fast ... then take money and run.
Either let biz go into bankruptancy or sell it to a sucker. What's he
care? He's got his.

Places like the above are were I see most of what are probably
illegals.

300 illegals caught working for subcontractors of Walmart? Gad, a
friggin pittance, a drop in the bucket. Nothing.

Most are working for people like you, or you neighbor, doing your
yardwork or painting your house for cheap. Because that's all you're
willing to pay.

Or they're taking jobs no one else is applying for, not in the numbers
needed. Often enough, making same wage as a legal would get. But the
legal doesn't want the job.

i.e. I happen to know that the employer I mentioned with the
questionable cleaning crew, pays them them same as he'd pay anyone
else. He simply can't find enough legal folk who want the job, who
are also willing to work at night, when most of the cleanup is done so
that cleaning crews are not in the way of the construction crews.

Knowing the firm in question, I'm betting they aren't asking just a
lot of questions about the employees of said subcontractor. Probably
asked, "Are they legal?" Guy said "Yep, each showed me a piece of
paper which I dutifully copied and filed. Each signed a piece of
paper swearing he or she was telling the truth. But that's all I did.
I didn't try to investigate more. I don't wanna know more than that."
General contractor probably replied, "Neither do I. I need the people
who'll do that job. That's all I am interested in. As long as they
swore to us they're legal, and showed us papers that say so. The rest
is between them and the INS, and not my problem. They'll work, that's
all I need to know."

As concerns some sizeable firms which pay cash. <Shrug> I know some
who will, upon request. i.e. I know a plastics place which makes
parts, moldings, trims, etc out of plastic. Perfectly legite firm.
Know the folks. Would bet there isn't a single illegal in the place.
But a number of their lower level employees (who all make better than
$10 an hour) don't even have a bank account. Perfectly legite people,
they just don't have a bank account. They want cash because otherwise
they have to go to one of those places where they charge to cash your
paycheck. Still others have a bank account, but prefer cash. i.e. I
know a wife who works at the place. She and hubby have an
arrangement. She puts part of her paycheck into the house account to
run and maintain house. The rest is hers. She likes cash, plus
figures it's none of his business how much she keeps. She works more
tha she has to to hold up her end of home expenses, that extra is her
money. And no one else's business. He knows she does this, fine with
him. Agrees, if she wishes to work the extra, her business, her
money. Works for them, so while the way my wife and I work things is
different, I have no adverse comment to make about that couple. If it
works for them, sounds good to me.

Bob
Burp
2003-10-28 02:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob G
Post by Burp
Post by Bob G
Not that this bothers me. The way I see it, if somebody doesn't want
to do the job, that's their problem. Heck with it, let someone else
take the job, who doesn't mind the work, even if it's hard and yah get
dirty doing it, and is perfectly willing to make a nice paycheck doing
it.
Bob
Are you a communist? Our economic system is based upon supply and demand. If
the supply is short and the demand is there then a balance is reached via
the money and benefits offered. Using illegal aliens destroys the
supply/demand equation.
ROFLMAO !
Geez, guy, have you a reading comprehension problem? Or are you doing
as all too many others do. Watching something or reading something
and picking out only the bits and pieces you agree with. Or only the
bits and pieces you disagree with, so you have an excuse to be angry.
You might benefit from actually paying attention to all the facts and
points presented, before jumping to conclusions.
First off. What have yah been smoking? What did I write that even
hinted that I might be a communist? I know modern communism does not
work worth a damn, for long. To start with, it violates the normal
human tendencies and psychology. Many humans are perfectly willing to
"share" equally with close family and close friends. The reason that
a communal/communist system has worked reasonably well in many parts
of the world at the small village/small extended family clan level
since the dawn of mankind. For say ... 20 to 100 people or so. Who
feel close ties and bonds with the others. And remain in that group
voluntarily. But I don't personally believe that real communism can
ever work outside of that context.
A far different thing from some "government" demanding and forcing me
to "share" with people I do not know; will never meet; of unknown
quality of character and morals to me; who will most likely never do
one damn thing for me in return for what I do for them, etc.
I am not an evil and selfish man. I work hard and get paid well for
what I do because I do it well enough to be worth every friggin penny
my employer pays me. And it doesn't bother me to work hard and share
my good fortune with family and special, close friends. I also
volunteer both my time, sweat, and cash to particular (of my choosing)
people in need, charities, etc. Nor do I mind the money deducted from
my pay to aid the truly handicapped, disabled, and so forth.
But a communist, as that term is known and used by most people ... Me?
Not a chance. I work hard for MINE ... my extended family clan. Try
to force me to work and redistribute more of my income than I'm
willing to part with to others ... and I'll either quite working, or
work a whole lot less hard and well. You'd get my minimum effort.
And it's likely I'd do exactly like many did in the old USSR. Do the
minimum at my regular job, and on the side and off the books do other
things to bring in more money or needed items for my family and close
friends.
Post by Burp
I KNOW that the elites use supply/demand to their benefit constantly. Is
there something immoral or illegal for the laboring class to benefit from
supply/demand? The elites have used propaganda to convince many of the
masses that it is.
I haven't a friggin clue what you're talking about here. What friggin
elites? I don't know any elites. I acknowledge no elites.
Any man I know or know of, is not any better than I am, not in any way
more elite than I am, puts on his pants one leg at a time just as I
do, etc. I kow-tow, and bow to no one.
In my world, elites do not exist.
At my work, which is a company of some success, a partnership owned by
a family and some related to that family by blood or long freindship
and mutual cooperation. I don't act towards the president of that
company as if he's some sort of elite or royalty. He's just a friggin
man, like I am. Some things he does better than I, some things he
knows which I don't. But the vice-versa is also true.
Okay, he's worth many millions. So what? It's his money, not mine.
He's never cheated me. I would not allow it. I am hired because he
needs me and the things I do well. And is willing to pay me what I
figure my labor is worth. If he did not, I'd be saying "Bye."
Because I know that I can go elsewhere and get the pay I want for my
work. I quite deliberately choose what I do.
Not enough pay on the going market for my particular skills? Hmmm,
must be time to either upgrade my skills into some area which pays
more. Or make a decision. Decide I like the work which I do enough
to continue doing it despite the fact I could make more doing
something else. Or strike out on my own and start my own business, to
see if I can make more money doing what I do in my own business. Or
change professions.
There is nothing, in this country, that prevents me from doing any of
those things. NOTHING. If I'm capable of doing it, and put forth the
suitable effort, and have enough brains to carry it off (am as smart
as I think I am), I can do whatever of those choices I damn well
please. The only thing stopping me would be ... myself.
As it is, I don't wanna be a full time business man. Especially a big
business type. I don't wanna spend all my time with spreadsheets,
analyzing the bottom line, smoozing with prospective customers.
Worrying about minute details and wording of this or that contract,
legal repercussions and exposures. Dealing with endless volumes,
representing entire forests cut down to print, of local municipal,
county, state, and federal rules and regulations. More time smoozing
with politicians and people holding key positions in this or that
regulatory body. And so forth. Have done some of that. HATE it.
The big boss can have it. And he can have the money he earned by
dealing with such crap. Me, I like my work. I like what I do. I
want to do what I do, not what he does. I do what I do because I
found it interesting. It pays well enough so that I figure it's
"enough", I can live with the figures. I am paid well enough, more
than the average person, but am far from being rich. A long, long way
from it.
I and my family are comfortable. Have our home, and have a little
cabin on a lake which is not much, not big, not fancy ... but we're
happy with it. I can't afford a new Mercedes, but didn't want one,
anyway. Ain't me. By preference I'd rather have a pickup or regular
SUV, without all the fancy gadgets. I've had them before, didn't use
em. Just something extra to break down and need repairing or
replacement. And I could care less about impressing people.
My tastes and preferences are not expensive or fancy. Mostly my wife
and I enjoy most staying home and gardening, or doing a number of
crafts hobbies we have at home, good home cooking, canning our own
stuff done to our tastes, having friends visit our home or us visiting
theirs, going fishing, etc. If we go out at all, it's to what are
mostly smallish restaurants we enjoy, where we know most of the staff,
and most of the patrons. Or maybe buzz up to a small Indian Casino
that's remote from any big cities. Often taking close friends along.
And the atmosphere of said casino is slower paced and more laid back
than those most people are familiar with. And we know many of the
staff there and are friends with them. We go as much to chat and
socialize as anything else. It's entertainment, with a little
friendly gambling thrown in.
So I make enough, for my purposes. Plus some. Could make more, but
am not really interested. I like what I do. Actually enjoy it, even
on those days I'm cursing the job because things have gone wrong or
whatever. Fact is, I know how to make more money, and have no doubt I
could do it. But like what I do, and any extra time I have I'd rather
go fishing than to do the extra time, work, and effort to get rich.
<Shrug> I don't envy the big guy, the Boss. He can have what he does
and what he earns from doing it, I don't want it. One day when he was
harried he grumbled, "Want my job? You can have it." I just laughed
at him and said, "No way. You're stuck with it. I'd as soon have a
lobotomy. For all the money you've got, you haven't enough to get me
to take your job. Sorry, go find some other sucker." In our
interaction, I call him "Joe" and he calls me "Bob". We talk as
equals, I pay due repect to him, he does the same to me. I don't kiss
his ass and he doesn't expect me to do so. In fact he has reason to
know that if he tried to get me to do so, he'd get a kick instead of a
kiss. Piss me off, treat me in a way I think to be unfair, and I take
a walk. Simple as that.
Now, does he have a right to demand certains things from me, does he
have a right to certain expectations of me? Of course, he signs my
check. By accepting it, I have agreed to his demands and expectations.
He has a perfect right to demand I earn my check, at the rate he pays
me. If I don't like those demands and expectations, I'm free to walk.
And he's free to try to find someone else who is qualified and capable
of doing what I do. For the same or less money.
Obviously, he thinks that'd be hard to do. He keeps me around, and
keeps signing the checks.
Post by Burp
Using illegal labor and usurping the supply/demand equation is communistic
and anti-American.
Upsurping WHAT?
Was I not clear?
I quite purposely put in that line about the one union pipefitter's
comment for a reason. Because it was true. He and others were turning
a blind eye towards those construction cleanup people because they
KNEW ... no one else wanted that job. Not enough legals to fulfill
the demand, anyway.
And that's FACT, get over it.
I have no clue where yah live or what the economic conditions are
aroud where yah live.
Around here, however, while unemployment is higher than usual, it is
not high. By any means. And among many of those recently umemployed,
none of those jobs they held are coming back nor are they being given
to illegals. They're eliminated, gone, finis, obsolete, etc.
i.e. A one time network engineer I know. Who held a high paying job,
better paying than mine. His old job? It's simply gone. His
previous specialty is simply no longer needed. Not in the numbers it
used to be. Modern computer systems and networks have become easier
to use, more plug and play. A lot of things that used to require
calling upon a highly paid specialist to accomplish, are now done
automatically by machine. Or accomplished simply and easily by a user
following a simple set of instructions on his or her screen. Or it
requires one highly paid specialist instead of 10.
Of the sort of things which require a superior knowledge and skill in
his field, for which there was still jobs available, he'd not stayed
up with and current upon the latest and greatest. His knowledge set,
for which he could command high dollars ... is obsolete. Simple as
that.
These days he's a general purpose repairer of desk top computers, and
simple network administrator for a small school district. Making less
than half of what he used to make. But it is all his skills are worth
on the current market. There are bunches of folks who could do the
work of the level he's at now. It ain't rocket science when dealing
with modern systems. He's lucky he got that job. At least the
bennies are good. And his workload light during summer breaks.
Other unemployed folks I know.
Hmmm. Mostly it's people who had jobs where modern systems eliminated
the need for the job. Secretaries and clerks who used to do typing
and filing. Back when using a word processor was difficult and
required a steeper learning curve. Modern office applications are for
the most part so easy that it's quite common place for me to see
managers, lawyers, businessmen, salesmen, etc doing their own
paperwork. Or the bulk of it.
i.e. I was in the offices of a firm which maintains and sells access
and use of a sizeable fiber optic network loop, to business customers,
in a downtown area of a city. In one office area for that firm, there
are a lot of vacant cubicles, desks, etc. Curious, I asked one guy
about it. He was a senior salesman for the company. I wondered if
business was bad. He answered that No, it was quite good, actually.
The vacant desks and cubicles? Used to belong to staff who simply
weren't needed any more. Modern office systems had so simplified
things, made them easier and faster to do, that they had no need of a
large number of paper pushers, typists, file clerks, and so forth any
longer. No work for em to do. Now they had the 8 sales people who
could easily do most of the paperwork themselves. plus one gal who
handled overflow paperwork.
I knew what he was saying. Hell, the other day I made up a bid
proposal for a job myself. Which included the engineering drawings,
schematics, proposed sequence of operation to meet building owner's
specs and desires, proposed bill of materials, copies of description
and spec sheets from manufacturer of the materials I was proposing to
use, etc. A professional level proposal. Everything done neat and
exact, detailed items listed and/or drawn, of final print quality.
Took me about 2 days.
It's not a huge job, pretty mediocre. I'm bidding just short of
$100,000. Fact is that 10 or 12 years ago, I myself would have spent
much more than 2 days planning the project, and would have needed a
staff of several people to complete that bid package (it's a book in
final form) and would have taken a week at least to do all the details
I did alone in 2 days. 1 week if I pushed them double time and
expected em, and myself, to do some overtime.
Get my point?
Now can that computer, or any computer within the foreseeable future
replace Pete, a pipefitter who works for me, who is also a building
automation tech? Not even close. His job isn't in jeopardy nor
anything even close to being obsolete. Same story with his controls
electrician running mate. But I sure don't have the office staff I
would've had 12 years ago. Nor do I need them. If I get backed up a
bit, no sweat. I might well call Pete, or Mark from the field if
either has some extra time on their hands. Both are proficient in the
use of the CAD program, word processing, and spreadsheets. Have to
be, I require it. One of the reasons they got the jobs they have and
someone else didn't. I'm doing the preliminary work and planning and
layout. But if we get the bid, and do the work, there will be field
changes. There always are. It's inevitable and unavoidable, tho it
can be minimalized by good planning. Pete may look like a hairy
gorilla in a hard hat. And he certainly talks like the stereotypical
construction worker. But he has a good brain. And besides being a
top notch pipefitter, HVAC tech, and controls expert. He is more than
moderately proficient at CAD work, a pretty fair hand at programming
digital controllers, and is certified in using the MS Office
applications. Can even set up a small network for yah if need be.
Write up a nice batch file to do repetitive tasks. Etc.
He is a somewhat slow typist tho. I'd guess he's not better than
perhaps 30 WPM. And not so nice to look at as a pretty secretary.
But I don't need a pretty secretary who types fast. Will consider
hiring any ladies, however, who can weld or braze or thread pipe,
program a PLC or DDC controller, knows how to take a temperature and
humidity and calculate enthalphy, etc. If she's pretty, I'll consider
that a bonus for me. But it's more important that she be able to do
the aforementioned things. Simply a pretty face is easy to find, a
dime a dozen, and I won't pay much for someone who is simply pretty.
Gotta be able to do the job.
Hmmm. I know a guy who's a stamping press operator who is out of a
job. Now, his job did go south. After a fashion. At least the
machines he used to operate went south. Were bought up by some
company in Mexico.
Fact is, his employer was going out of business. The work they did
wasn't rocket science. Pretty basic parts making. Others making same
type of simple parts were making and selling em for less. The parts
just as good. No difference. Were not inferior in any way. But
others were making them cheaper than this guy's company.
How? Well, for one the equipment in this place was old, simple stuff.
Manpower intensive. And other US shops of the same sort had better,
more efficient, in terms of manpower needed, stuff. They could punch
out the parts faster, dip em, paint em, pack em, and ship em faster,
with fewer people. Then there was the "foreigners". Similar shops to
his in Indonesia, or Columbia, or whereever. Which had machines like
he used. But their labor costs were less.
This particular guy is no skilled machinest, or tin bender who could
be given a custom job to make. i.e. Hand such a drawing, or a spec
and he could figure out the mathematics needed, materials needed, etc
in order to make the item.
20 some-odd years on the job but the fellow I'm speaking of never
learned anything more than to operate that punch machine, following
instructions for a specific part made up by someone else who knew how
to figure out the best way to make that part using that machinery. In
fact, the guy can barely read. And his math skills are pretty much
limited to simple addition and subtraction. I know. Unfortunately he
asked me if the company I work for could use him, as we have a branch
which makes duct work for commercial HVAC systems. I asked him some
questions, simple ones, which he could not begin to answer. Problem
is our tin benders make custom ducting at each job. It's never the
same between two jobs. Workers have to know their stuff. Be able to
figure out the math and geometry, on the fly in the field, to make
things fit properly, do the right bend radius, and still maintain
rated flow called for by the specs with a head pressure set at
designed set point.
Nothing I could do for him.
He has a line on a new job. But it pays less than the $24 a hour he
made at the last job. Nor does it have the large number of vacation
days and paid holidays, very generous benefits, and so forth which his
last job had. A union job. And they went out on strike asking for
even more. Even tho the company was already having problems staying
in business and competing on the open market place. Thus, the company
folded. Closed the doors.
Last I talked to the fellow, he was thinking about the new job offer,
but as it paid less for people of his skill level (he was offered
about $16 a hr) and the bennies were not as good, he was planning to
just live on his unemployment for as long as it held out before really
trying to get another job.
His last task at the old company was to pack up and crate his old
press machines. Not worth much in the US at going prices. Not much
market for them. They'd been sold to some Mexican firm.
Hmmm. Just talked to a fellow yesterday who just got laid off. A
pitch layer. He gets laid off every winter when the pitch plants shut
down up this way, because it's too cold. He's not looking for
anything else. Said so. In fact he's been looking forward to the
seasonal layoff. Says that he now will have more time for the
important things. Beer drinking and watching the ball games. Lives
in Section 8 housing. The unemployment comp he gets is enough, for
him and his wife. Tho he says from time to time during the cold
season when he's laid off, when he feels like it, he'll do some
drywall work for a guy he knows. To earn some extra beer money. The
guy pays him cash, so he doesn't have to report it as extra income.
Otherwise he wouldn't bother. He was very talkative at the time. But
then, he was fairly drunk. I ran into him as I was helping out some
of his neighbors. An older couple on limited income, both partially
disabled. She's mostly disabled. The hubby works but at a low paying
job. Best he can get with his disability and skills. But he's proud
that he is still working. He doesn't like that fellow next door very
much. Can't figure out why the guy is drunk at 11 a.m. instead of
working since he's able.
Hmmm. I know a nurse's aid who is unemployed. But that is usual for
her. She intentionally plans her life that way. She works only until
she's earned unemployment again, then will deliberately do something
that'll get her fired while still letting her make a claim that it was
of no fault of her own. She's good at it, and knows 1001 tricks to
pull it off.
Frankly, I can't say I know much of anyone who is unemployed, for
long, if they really want to work. Except the truly disabled. Most
of the competent, willing to work for their money people I know don't
stay out of work very long.
Chuckle, a week or so back I did listen in on a conversation between a
couple low voltage electricians. The company for whom they worked had
a slow period coming up. Was gonna lay off the one guy, who was
junior for a couple months. Other fellow, a more experienced fellow,
a journeyman, said "Screw that. I want to get the layoff." Grabbed
his Nextel and called the boss. Said he wanted laid off instead of
younger fellow. When he hung up he told other guy, "It's a done
deal." And explained to younger fellow that now he, the older guy,
could do more hunting, fishing, etc as it was the season. And he
could get some things done around the house which he'd been putting
off. Heck, if someone got to go home and take some time off, he
wanted it.
In the meantime, I regularly hear guys who do business in various
trades, where the work can be tough, yah gotta be willing to sweat
like hell one day, freeze yer nuts the next, have GOOD skills with
hand tools, know the knowledge related to your trade well, and sport a
set of calouses on your hands ... who are looking for people willing
and able to do such work. Guys, or gals, who'll enter the field and
actually stay on the job, even when it gets miserable and hard.
Because that is part of the job. The jobs pay well, but if you're
gonna be a pussy about getting dirty, or developing blisters, or
getting sore muscles, or being hot one time and cold the next ... stay
home. The guys running such businesses will look elsewhere to find
those who are willing to do such work. And pay them. Decently, too.
Talking to them what I hear is that they are seeing fewer and fewer
young folks each year ... young, American born, white kids ...
applying for such jobs and sticking with it. So, more and more they
are turning to people like the immigrant community.
Post by Burp
Of course, if you DO want to destroy the supply/demand system then we MUST
import foreign CEOs that will work ofr $100,000 yearly vice $50,000,000 and
all the professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. will have to have
their wages brought down by the importaion of millions of aliens with those
skills.
ROFLMAO !
And you're calling me a communist?
Buddy, you sound like one, did you know that?
Me, I'm not bitching. I can and will stand on my own two feet and
compete fairly against anyone in my field of work. Show myself his or
her equal or better. If not, will shut my durn mouth. Because my
failure has nothing to do with that other person. If he or she is
better than I at something, that's simple fact. Blaming them for my
lacks makes no sense to me. Let the better man, or woman win.
Where in our Constitution does it guarantee equality of outcome?
Where does it guarantee one a nice, fat paycheck even if yah can't do
your job as well as the other person? Or simply won't, because you'd
rather goof off.
Where does it guarantee that your job is safe, will never change, will
never become obsolete, will never be unneeded ... or taken over by a
machine?
I do believe, at least it is my understanding, that the Constitution
and Bill of Rights are simply documents that say you have the right of
equality of opportunity and freedoms to do what you can and are
willing to do.
The rest is up to you.
Want that better paying job? Think you're worth it?
What's holding you back? Stop talking and bitching. And prove you're
as good as you think you are. Prove you can do what those you are
envious of and angry at are doing as well or better than they can. Or
at least stop whining.
Sheesh.
Talk about un-American. You would seem, if I understand you right, to
fit that image.
Our system is one originally built on the concept that you have the
right and freedom to go as far as you are capable of achieving and
have the desire for. Or doing as little as you wish. Up to you.
But you talk like a fellow who wants the government to step in and
MAKE employers pay you a certain amount, protect you from competition,
and so forth.
Hmmm. Sounds pretty Commie to me.
FWIW, the company for whom I work is a union company. But we aren't
whining. We think we're good at what we do, better than the
competition, and are willing to prove it. And do. Business-wise we
are doing well. Our strongest competitor, FWIW, is a non-union shop.
But the owner of it is sharp, pays his people well, and demands their
best. And they are good. The rest, union and non-union, <Shrug> Had
better shape up or one of the two of us are gonna take their work away
from em. The competitor I mentioned above is our only real
competitior in this area. And he's good, his men are good. He's got
my respect. Keeps us on our toes and sharp. The rest of the folks in
this area in our biz, are either wannabes, or has-beens.
Such is life. Some of those others have gotten out of the biz
altogether. Or have turned to residential work. Which we don't do.
Homeowners and such, 95% or better, don't know the difference between
good work and craftsmanship or bad. Mostly interested in the
cheapest. We're not interested in such business.
Those bad boys you allude to, the big guys, the bigger companies,
organizations, and corporations, however are usually willing to pay
extra for quality. They can be a pain in the ass, and very demanding,
but they'll pay well if you meet their demands and expectations.
They'll pay us what we think we're worth. And when we show we're
worth what they paid, we get repeat business from em.
It has been my observation that the most folks who demand the absolute
bottom line cheapest of whatever available ... are the average
individual homeowners. And small businesses hanging on by a nail, or
just starting up. Or the many fly by night businesses. Where guy
starts up business with no idea to stick around for the long haul.
He's out to make as much money as he can in the shortest possible
time. And will cut every corner, save every penny he can in the
process. Grow fast, make money fast ... then take money and run.
Either let biz go into bankruptancy or sell it to a sucker. What's he
care? He's got his.
Places like the above are were I see most of what are probably
illegals.
300 illegals caught working for subcontractors of Walmart? Gad, a
friggin pittance, a drop in the bucket. Nothing.
Most are working for people like you, or you neighbor, doing your
yardwork or painting your house for cheap. Because that's all you're
willing to pay.
Or they're taking jobs no one else is applying for, not in the numbers
needed. Often enough, making same wage as a legal would get. But the
legal doesn't want the job.
i.e. I happen to know that the employer I mentioned with the
questionable cleaning crew, pays them them same as he'd pay anyone
else. He simply can't find enough legal folk who want the job, who
are also willing to work at night, when most of the cleanup is done so
that cleaning crews are not in the way of the construction crews.
Knowing the firm in question, I'm betting they aren't asking just a
lot of questions about the employees of said subcontractor. Probably
asked, "Are they legal?" Guy said "Yep, each showed me a piece of
paper which I dutifully copied and filed. Each signed a piece of
paper swearing he or she was telling the truth. But that's all I did.
I didn't try to investigate more. I don't wanna know more than that."
General contractor probably replied, "Neither do I. I need the people
who'll do that job. That's all I am interested in. As long as they
swore to us they're legal, and showed us papers that say so. The rest
is between them and the INS, and not my problem. They'll work, that's
all I need to know."
As concerns some sizeable firms which pay cash. <Shrug> I know some
who will, upon request. i.e. I know a plastics place which makes
parts, moldings, trims, etc out of plastic. Perfectly legite firm.
Know the folks. Would bet there isn't a single illegal in the place.
But a number of their lower level employees (who all make better than
$10 an hour) don't even have a bank account. Perfectly legite people,
they just don't have a bank account. They want cash because otherwise
they have to go to one of those places where they charge to cash your
paycheck. Still others have a bank account, but prefer cash. i.e. I
know a wife who works at the place. She and hubby have an
arrangement. She puts part of her paycheck into the house account to
run and maintain house. The rest is hers. She likes cash, plus
figures it's none of his business how much she keeps. She works more
tha she has to to hold up her end of home expenses, that extra is her
money. And no one else's business. He knows she does this, fine with
him. Agrees, if she wishes to work the extra, her business, her
money. Works for them, so while the way my wife and I work things is
different, I have no adverse comment to make about that couple. If it
works for them, sounds good to me.
Bob
This guy thinks I'm gonna' read ALL that?

Bwa hah hah hah hah hah hah!!!!!




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Gunner
2003-10-28 09:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burp
Post by Bob G
run and maintain house. The rest is hers. She likes cash, plus
figures it's none of his business how much she keeps. She works more
tha she has to to hold up her end of home expenses, that extra is her
money. And no one else's business. He knows she does this, fine with
him. Agrees, if she wishes to work the extra, her business, her
money. Works for them, so while the way my wife and I work things is
different, I have no adverse comment to make about that couple. If it
works for them, sounds good to me.
Bob
This guy thinks I'm gonna' read ALL that?
Bwa hah hah hah hah hah hah!!!!!
Probably not. Bob writes for those whom are literate and intelligent
and not for those of your ilk. Must suck to be you.

Now Im sure if you search hard enough, the Telly Tubbies has to be on
some channel. Enjoy.

Gunner, wondering if this oaf can even read his Highschool diploma, or
even has one.

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
Bob G
2003-10-28 12:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burp
This guy thinks I'm gonna' read ALL that?
Bwa hah hah hah hah hah hah!!!!!
No, Actually I didn't.

Look, Burp. This is a free country. And it has this thing called
free speech.

Which means that I had something on my mind, and was perfectly
entitled to say it. And I did.

But unlike what all too many think, I quite well understand the
concept that others are equally free to disagree, or to just plain
ignore me. Freedom of speech does not mean others must listen or read
what yah have to say.

Whether you read what I had to say or not, and whether you agreed with
me or not. Is in fact irrelevant.

I said what I had to say on the subject I posted about. Not in some
effort to "prove" my point of view. Nor in some effort to "prove" I'm
superior to someone else.

The fact is that this is a usenet group on the internet. Which means
it's not actually real life, Burp. I am a grown adult. I do know the
difference between reality and otherwise. And understand without even
thinking about it conciously that playing games of verbal
"oneupsmanship" here, and whether or not I "win or lose" said game,
does not in fact change one tiniest thing about me or my real life
once I walk away from the keyboard.

So I do not even bother to think about what I do here in those terms.
Read my posts, or don't read them. Agree with me, or don't agree with
me. Post a response, or don't. Your choice, one you're free to make.
I understand that and am not offended or bothered, nor does my real
life change one iota one way or the other.

This discussion was not all about you, Burp.. Nor was it all about
me.

My response was geared not only to the things you posted. It also
addressed things others had said here.

It was presented simply as my way of saying, "Here, take a look thru
my eyes. You have had me look at things thru yours, now look thru
mine."

Nothing you or others have posted on this subject up in the subject
line of this thread, nor anything I've posted, "proves" anything.

The people I mentioned, and the situations, are real. They certainly
do not represent the only reason some people are unemployed. But they
do represent very real, actual causes. And are representative of some
quite common causes I see all the time. The type work I do means I am
constantly visiting factories, offices, large office complexes owned
by property management corps, shops, various government and
institutional buildings and complexes, etc, etc. Every day I am
talking to people ranging from janitors, to clerks and secretaries, to
blue collar guys in the various trades, their bosses and employers,
teachers and district administrators, sales people, IT/IS specialists,
middle managers, upper level managers, CEO's, and folks who don't
really have a title or a job description ... don't need one because
they own the place, or at least own the controlling stock interest.
It's necessary in my line of work. I do building automation/ climate
control/ energy management/ security systems, etc. So I'm always
visitng sites where we have a contract, or are trying to get one. And
it's part of my job to speak to folks there to see if they have any
speacial concerns, problems, issues, etc. So I shoot the breeze with
a controls electrician to see how the job is going and what the
problems are. I wander about a building, greet, smile at and chat
with the female office cleaner. Because she probably knows every room
in that building of hundreds of such. Hears people complaining. Or
knows where the cold or hot spots are. As the new system we're
putting in comes on line here and there, she's almost certainly gonna
know if the people in that area are happy or unhappy with the results.

This is info I need. Likewise, last Friday I was chatting with said
type lady at one 22 story office complex, and mentioned that my
workers were gonna be starting work in this one area of one floor.
This was over lunch as I bought her lunch. I know who to cultivate a
relationship with in order to really know what's going on somewhere.
And it's usually not the top management. The lead cleaning gal, the
building maintenance guy, and the general purpose "Gal Friday" of such
places most often know more about the details of issues and problems,
who is unhappy and who isn't ... and why, than whoever is in the
office on the top floor.

This lady is Philippino, one who immigrated here, legally. And was
quite pleased that I noticed her, paid attention to her, acknowledged
her job was important, and sought her advice about some things. Also
helped when I came up to her, smiled, and said "Anong pangalong mo?"
(sp?) "What is your name?", in her native language.

So we talked about many things over the lunch I bought. How she feels
that days, how her children are doing, her concerns about other
issues. My interest is honest. She knows that. She also knows I am
interested in business. So she tosses in some advice. That I should
have my workers be very quiet and as unobstrusive as possible in this
new area they'll be working. A law office. And the head lawyer is a
real prick. Thinks he is a King or something. He'll bitch and moan,
rant and rave about most any small thing. Any little piece of wire
fallen on the floor, he'll bitch. His office one degree off the
temperature he wants and he'll act as if the world is ending. Etc.

I thank her, as she's been helpful. And I make a mental note to have
Marv work that area instead of Chad. Marv is the laid back sort.
He'll let someone rant and rave like a fool and handle it
diplomatically or simply ignore em. Chad, OTOH, is the type who if
someone doesn't talk to him in a civil voice, and it doesn't matter
who the hell the person is, is as likely as not to stuff said person
into a filing cabinet drawer. A small one. Or, at best, if he's
feeling civil that day, he'll simply pack up his tools and leave with
the parting remark, "Fine with me, freeze or sweat your ass off, I
could care less, no sweat off my balls. Call me when you can talk to
me civilly, and I'll think about coming back to finish the job."

My point is, every day I talk to a lot of different, ordinary people,
in many different fields of work. And we talk about more than simply
the issue at hand, why I'm there. I cultivate friendly, general chat,
among people from the bottom of the ladder to the top. Consider it
part of my job. I try to present myself and my team not as simply
hired contractors out to make our buck and then disappear. Not
interested in anything else. I try to get folks to be friendly
towards me, feel at ease, etc. Try to get them to feel that I really
am interested in them, their business, and their lives and problems.
It's helpful. Makes my work go smoother.

It's a small thing. But small things count. They add to whether or
not the building owner is happy with our work, and just as importantly
whether the people who live in that building 8 to 12 hrs a day, 5 days
a week are satisfied that we did our best possible work. After all,
these folks pay the owner of the building to have their offices there.
The happier they are, the happier he is, he signs my check without
complaining, and maybe considers hiring me and my team to do another
building he owns.

So I spend time cultivating conversation and casual friendship with
this female fiber network designer on the 7th floor. Who is known by
most everyone as "That Bitch". Even her boss warns me about her.
She's a royal pain in his ass, but he keeps her around because she's
very good at what she does.

One morning she comes in and I'm in her office with my test
instruments, measuring temp, humidity, air flow rates, etc. My guys
had just converted her air supply to the new system. And at her
irrate demand to know exactly what the hell I'm doing in there, I
smile and answer that I'm testing the new system. I'm trying to make
absolutely sure that she's comfy. After all, I surmise, her job must
be difficult enough as it is without having to put up with being too
hot, too cold, or whatever. She does a doubletake, blinking like she
can't believe it, that I'm being civil and concerned. Then she
recovers, and says the air conditioning sucks, has always sucked, will
likely always suck because no one really cares what she says or
whether she's comfortable or not.

Pretty much what I might expect. Gal feels harried, overworked, and
under appreciated. I respond by asking if she can be a bit more
specific and I'd see what I could do. And. "By the way, what do you
do? It looks terribly complicated and hard. But it looks important."
She relaxes, and starts telling me all about it. People like to talk
about their work, and they like to feel as if they do something
important. I listen for some time. Then say that I probably should
get busy and stop bothering her. What was her specific complaint?
Now she's willing to talk openly and honest. And says that actually
the temp is fine most of the time. Only real problem is when she
comes in first thing in the morning during the cold season, her office
is too cool. I tell her I can handle that. What time does she
usually come in? I can reprogram the system for her office so it
"wakes up" earlier and warms it to her preference by that time. Not
only that, but see the little panel with the LCD and buttons? I'll
program the system so that only she can makes changes from the
settings for her office which I'll give it, because only she and I
will have the password which will allow it. What else? She mentions
that even when temp is okay, she feels kinda stuffy. I nod, no
problem. I have my laptop out and am hooked into the climate control
network. I make some changes. "How's that?" One can already feel and
smell the change in the air in the room. She smiles, "Hey, I like
that." I warn her that with the air moving faster, it'll feel cooler
than it really is. But now she's a happy puppy, and responds "I can
deal with that. You just don't know what it's like being cooped up in
here all day. With my job I'm pretty much in my office, at my desk,
most of 8 hrs a day. I get to feeling like I'm all closed in, in a
cave or something. I keep thinking I need more fresh air and oxygen
or something. This is much, much better. Thank you."

Next morning when she arrives, she finds a couple plants and some
flowers in her office. From me with a note saying that I found that a
few plants helped to make an office feel a little less closed in and a
fresher, brighter place.

No big deal. Went on my expense account. And paid back dividends. A
few days later her boss passed me in a hall and stopped to comment
that he wanted to thank me. She was a much happier lady. And ranted
and raved about the wonderful new air conditioning system.

She was happier. Thus he was happier. She's a key employee he needs.
He was happier and thus I heard from the building owner. Word had
gotten to his level. That business which leased space from him was
one of his bigger accounts. Head fella of it was happy, so building
owner was happy. As a result, the owner asked me to work up a
proposal to do the same sort of thing we'd done to that building, to
another which he owned.

That wasn't the only reason. There were many. But the incident I
write about helped him make up his mind. In my favor. He had bids
and offers from other companies to work on that next building of his.
But by now he has decided that he's pretty convinced our work is
superior. And while we charge a bit more, he's obviously decided it
is worth it. That he only told me to do a prosal and submit it, was
really a formality. Day after I submitted it it came back with his
stamp of approval on it.

I say these things only to convey the world I see.

You see foreigners taking American jobs.

I see an open market place with people freely competing for work and
business. With the winner being either the folks who's make something
or do something the cheapest, because there is a market for the
cheapest. Or winners are the folks who do something better than their
competition, or something their competition can't equal at all. Who
are selling their goods or services to people who want better than the
first group who want the cheapest.

That Philippino immigrant lady I mentioned? Took no job from anyone.
She earned her position. She's now in charge of the cleaning crews
for that building and she has that job because she worked for it, and
earned it because she in fact does what she does better then the
others. She WANTED that job. May not sound like much to you. But
it's a lot to her. And she's proud of her accomplishment. She's the
HEAD cleaning lady, in charge. Recognition given for her efforts and
skills. And while she isn't getting rich, she finds her pay to be
adequate, plus some. She and her children are living a whole hell of
a lot better here than they would have been back in the Philippines.
She knows, She was born and raised there. (Her hubby is a native born
American.) She works hard, and smart, knows her trade and business.

And, BTW, is paid according to the same scale the property owner pays
all such people in each of the properties he owns, regardless of where
they were born or what color skin they have. He doesn't care about
such things. And that scale is equivalent to what other employers of
such workers in that field pay, plus a little, because he wants the
good employees to stay. Most such employees he has are in fact
immigrants. Not because they work cheaper. Because they're mostly
the only ones applying for such jobs and working hard at it to excell.
most "whites" he gets who apply for such jobs only apply for them
because they can't find something else. Do poorly at it, come in
late, skip work often, and so forth. Usually don't stay but a couple
months, if that.

Bob
j***@.
2003-10-26 02:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob G
Post by Jeff McCann
There's a lot of construction going on where I work as a paramedic.
There's plenty of illegals employed by various subs. I picked up one
who was drunk and beaten up. He was deported back to Mexico. I saw him
a month later. He was drunk and had totaled a car. He was also back on
the same job, had false ID, etc. It's like trying to bail the Titanic
with a Dixie cup. Oh, well . . .
Jeff
Chuckle, yep there are those of that sort. Problem children. Tho, in
certain areas of the construction biz the "problem children" are as
often white, and legal, as not.
In certain types of work, the employer doesn't even ask if yah have a
drug problem. Doesn't care, doesn't even want to know. Go up to him
and say, "Hey, I'm looking for work. Lost my last job after I got
busted. Had to do 30 days in lockup."
Often enough, employer in certain types of biz will look at guy saying
that and reply, "Who gives a rip? Why are yah telling me this? All I
want to know is can yah do this job. My rule is, no drinking or drugs
on the job, what yah do after work is none of my friggin business and
I don't want to know."
I know a guy who lives down the road who is an example. Has no place
of his own. But his brother and sister in law let him live in the
basement. He's got a bedroom set up down there. The guy is an
alcoholic. Tho now he is trying, once again, to dry up. As far as I
know, he's been dry now for longer than ever before, about a year. So
I hope he stays successful.
Anyway, a while back when he was hitting the bottle way too much, he
was a regular visitor to the Cross Bar Hotel. Routinely he called his
employer instead of family to come bail him out. And employer would.
Finally things got bad, had his vehicle confiscated and he was locked
up for I don't know how long. Don't know him that well, know his
brother mostly, but it was months. The guy could get out each work
day to go to work. So every morning there was a pickup waiting
outside with the sign on it's side saying the truck belonged to this
particular concrete company. Guy was let out of lockup, climbed into
truck and was off to work. Each evening a truck brought him back. He
was required to have signed note in hand saying when he'd gotten off
work, and where he'd been working. So guards could check time he came
in and see that he'd gone straight from job site back to jail. When
he finally got out of jail, couldn't drive as his driver's license was
taken away and he's gotta wait 2 years to get it back again. If he
can, he's gotta stay dry for the two years. But every working day a
pickup, dump truck, or crete truck from the company pulls up at his
brother's home to pick guy up for work. Same will drop him off after
work that day.
Why? Because he's a good concrete man. And does the most physically
brutal and demanding, hardest, dirtiest part of the jobs. And is good
at it. Exceptional. When he's working he doesn't complain, jumps in
there and humps and is still going as strong as when he started after
others have started to fall over from exhaustion. Or slowed way the
heck down. And he'll do his task to perfection every time.
The employer of this fellow has a damn hard time finding good men to
do this sort of work. Who'll stick and stay around. It's a non-union
shop, but the employer does not pay badly. I know he pays this
particular fellow $22 an hr. Not bad, especially considering the guy
is a HS dropout.
<Shrug> This sort of thing is not uncommon in the various construction
trades. If the guy is good at what he does, and most especially if
it's one of those jobs that involves some particularly brutal, hard
physical work that most people don't want to do. Especially don't want
to do as one's regular job, year in and year out. An employer often
puts up with said employee being a "problem child".
I happen to know of a firm, a general contractor in the construction
biz, who employs some "questionable" people. Maybe that's the wrong
term, as that employer does not ask many questions of a certain group
of employees. These are some folks specifically hired to do
construction cleanup chores. During construction, at various times
this crew will come in and do some cleaning up. And at the end of the
project the new building looks like crap, scraps, dust, and debris
everywhere. Nice new windows have crap all over them. Rock dust
everywhere. Paint overspray that needs to be fixed. Floors cleaned
and polished. Etc. Etc. Towards end of construction as sections of
building are completed these folks show up. At night. For one,
they're not union. For a second reason, I think their foreman is the
only one of the bunch who speaks English.
Now, I've never asked. But there is a fair to middling chance there
is an illegal or two in that crowd. <G>
The cleanup people are sometimes still there in the mornings, still
packing away their cleaning gear and such, when the regular
construction guys show up. I've noticed the construction guys simply
ignore them and pretend they're not even there.
They don't want to ask about those cleaning folks, don't wanna know.
Among other things those folks are non-union. And the construction
jobs I mention where they show up are union jobs. So if guy asked and
got told truth, he'd sorta be obligated to blow the whistle. So he
ain't asking.
As I heard one fellow, a journeyman pipefitter tell his young
apprentice one day when his apprentice mentioned "those folks". Older
fellow answered. "They ain't here kid. Let it drop. Hell, they got
families to feed. And none of us want that job. So let it drop.
They aren't here ... they're supposed to be gone before we get here,
anyway."
The fact is, Jeff, and I see this all the time in several sorts of
businesses ... that there are a lot of jobs that native born and
raised Americans don't want. I've talked to employers who, for some
sorts of jobs, can't find anybody who'll take em, except short term.
If then. Except, immigrants and illegals.
Heck, in the not too distant future the immigrants may also be taking
over the skilled, good paying trades jobs. I don't know how it is
everywhere. But do know a few places where the local situation is
such that employers can't find enough skilled pipe fitters, plumbers,
welders, electricians, etc. Not new ones entering the training
pipeline and doing apprentice level work. It has some of them
worried. Right now they still have the old hands, so they have
manpower. But not enough new folks are entering the trades. And the
jobs of which I speak, pay well, if you finish the schooling, do the
apprenticeship, etc. But a lot of our young folks don't want to get
their hands dirty, or work up a sweat. Or work outside when it's
cold. Etc.
Not that this bothers me. The way I see it, if somebody doesn't want
to do the job, that's their problem. Heck with it, let someone else
take the job, who doesn't mind the work, even if it's hard and yah get
dirty doing it, and is perfectly willing to make a nice paycheck doing
it.
Bob
I hate to tell you this, but you are full of shit. 174 illegal aliens
were removed from Federal Express World Head Quarters, because of Local
474, and one man that sent hundreds of emails and letters to the
governor of Tennessee and the INS. That man was Ronnie Simmons, now
deceased.

And as far as getting your hands dirty, and not being able to get men to
do the work, you are wrong again. The apprenticeship programs have to
turn people away each year.

Illegal aliens will never enter our apprenticeship programs, because
they are taught in English.

I get my hands dirty every day, and so do a million other electricians,
and we don't need any illegal Mexicans, you ignorant asshole.
kitty
2003-10-24 21:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Strider
Not REQUIRED--but DESIRED!! I would turn him in after I found out where
lived --see if he has a brood with him also......

kitty
Strider
2003-10-25 02:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:13:44 GMT, "Irony Alert"
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside
contractors,
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated
Press
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
on
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They
cited
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives,
managers
Post by Strider
Post by TNSAF
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know and it is illegal to do so knowingly!
Gotta love those anonymous sources.
If you knew the guy pumping your gas was illegal, are you required to
narc him out to the Feds?
Yes.
Please cite that law as I would just hate to run afoul of the Feds.
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
Strider
Not REQUIRED--but DESIRED!! I would turn him in after I found out where
lived --see if he has a brood with him also......
kitty
I didn't think there was a statute that required me to do so, but
should I choose to, well, that's a different case.

Strider
Clave
2003-10-24 19:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by TNSAF
Post by Blade
The are not Wal-Mart workers, they are employed by the
sub-contractors that do the cleaning.
It is not Wal-Marts responsibility to monitor sub-contractors.
<snip>
"The workers were members of cleaning crews hired by outside contractors,
but federal law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press on
condition of anonymity said Wal-Mart knew of the violations. They cited
recordings of meetings and conversations among Wal-Mart executives, managers
and contractors."
http://tinyurl.com/s8uk
It would appear they did know...
As tightassed as WalMart is with their accounting, I wouldn't have believed
otherwise.

Jim
¢¢
2003-10-24 14:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Anyone notice that these 300 workers were terminated the day before payday?
The sub-contractor just saved probably close to 200k.

Would not surprise me if either the sub-contrator or Wal-Mart turned in the
illegals.
Post by BunnERabbit
<snipped>
Feds Arrests 300 Wal-Mart Workers
I'll bet if the illegals weren't from Eastern Europe the hysterical PC
cackling Hens would be screaming racist conspiracy.
Anyway..
Will they be going after the illegal primates at the 7/11 and gas
stations?
--
Bunn E. Rabbit,
Who only hires AMERICAN mammals.
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
To send mail... substitute ModerateMammal
----------
Notroll2004
2003-10-24 21:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ¢¢
Anyone notice that these 300 workers were terminated the day before payday?
The sub-contractor just saved probably close to 200k.
That's sort of what Smitty does - fires the help a few days before
Christmas. He saves a lot of hams that way.
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