Discussion:
Doing it the right way
(too old to reply)
Halcitron
2005-07-08 13:33:27 UTC
Permalink
http://www.globegazette.com/articles/2005/07/08/opinion/doc42cdf3adca39f556898882.txt


Doing it the right way

By TIM TYLER, Clear Lake

I enjoyed reading your article on the family from Egypt in the Globe
Gazette's July 5th paper.

It is refreshing to read about a family who has followed the proper
protocol to become American citizens. Not only did they follow the law,
they still have two children in Egypt waiting a lengthy 12-year period
for their visas in order that they also may become legal citizens. In
comparison, their counterparts are the illegals that can't wait to gain
access into America by any means possible.

The Fakuos followed the right course of action; although lengthy, its
legal. I respect these folks for their patience and ambition, and
consider them an asset to North Iowa - law-abiding and taxpaying
citizens.

I recently read an article about a group of illegal aliens in
California responsible for the spread of a strain of T.B. that doesn't
respond to normal treatment. Treatment of this T.B. is lengthy and
expensive, from $500,000 to $1.2 million per patient. With 15,000 known
cases, it's just another contributing factor to California's economic
demise, partially brought on by California's illegal alien population.

In short, to be an American citizen, you need not to be born here.
There are only a few tribes of purebred Americans left. As for those
fortunate enough to be born in Iowa, it's nice to know that there are
still immigrants willing to obey laws to become citizens of our great
state without jeapordizing the health of us living here now.

As for the illegals that have broken the law, it's up to us to inform
the proper authorities of their whereabouts. Or perhaps end up like
California.

end

At least some people do it the correct way. Also, as you might have
guessed, I am mad, as Hell, over the invasion of illegals, to
California, USA, and I am not going to take it anymore. Where I used to
praise them for seeking work, rather than panhandling, I now see their
loitering as a symptom, to a problem. Where I saw their cohabitating of
15 in a 3 bedroom house, I now see them as a health threat and safety
hazard.

You too should take a stance, and fight illegal immigration. We don't
need them here in such quantity. We have an overcapacity, and we need
to get control of the situation.

Ignorance of a symptom, only allows the problem to fester and grow.
Sitting back and saying, "Maybe it will get better", won't work. We
need to get off our butts and solve the problem, or pay the price of
our ignorance.

So, today I ask you, each and every citizen, of your respective
country, to take a stance, and take action, to solve the problems of
your country.


:/

Halcitron - Minuteman
misc.survivalism

"illegals are like the flies outside my window,
if I didn't have screens, I'd have a house full of flies."

alt.politics.immigration,misc.survivalism,soc.culture.mexican.american,ca.politics
Lawrence Glickman
2005-07-08 15:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Halcitron
http://www.globegazette.com/articles/2005/07/08/opinion/doc42cdf3adca39f556898882.txt
Doing it the right way
By TIM TYLER, Clear Lake
I enjoyed reading your article on the family from Egypt in the Globe
Gazette's July 5th paper.
It is refreshing to read about a family who has followed the proper
protocol to become American citizens. Not only did they follow the law,
they still have two children in Egypt waiting a lengthy 12-year period
for their visas in order that they also may become legal citizens. In
comparison, their counterparts are the illegals that can't wait to gain
access into America by any means possible.
The Fakuos followed the right course of action; although lengthy, its
legal. I respect these folks for their patience and ambition, and
consider them an asset to North Iowa - law-abiding and taxpaying
citizens.
I recently read an article about a group of illegal aliens in
California responsible for the spread of a strain of T.B. that doesn't
respond to normal treatment. Treatment of this T.B. is lengthy and
expensive, from $500,000 to $1.2 million per patient. With 15,000 known
cases, it's just another contributing factor to California's economic
demise, partially brought on by California's illegal alien population.
In short, to be an American citizen, you need not to be born here.
There are only a few tribes of purebred Americans left. As for those
fortunate enough to be born in Iowa, it's nice to know that there are
still immigrants willing to obey laws to become citizens of our great
state without jeapordizing the health of us living here now.
As for the illegals that have broken the law, it's up to us to inform
the proper authorities of their whereabouts. Or perhaps end up like
California.
end
At least some people do it the correct way. Also, as you might have
guessed, I am mad, as Hell, over the invasion of illegals, to
California, USA, and I am not going to take it anymore. Where I used to
praise them for seeking work, rather than panhandling, I now see their
loitering as a symptom, to a problem. Where I saw their cohabitating of
15 in a 3 bedroom house, I now see them as a health threat and safety
hazard.
You too should take a stance, and fight illegal immigration. We don't
need them here in such quantity. We have an overcapacity, and we need
to get control of the situation.
Ignorance of a symptom, only allows the problem to fester and grow.
Sitting back and saying, "Maybe it will get better", won't work. We
need to get off our butts and solve the problem, or pay the price of
our ignorance.
So, today I ask you, each and every citizen, of your respective
country, to take a stance, and take action, to solve the problems of
your country.
:/
Halcitron - Minuteman
misc.survivalism
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders, it seems to me that shit flows downhill. GWB
is leading by example, and you can expect his underlings, if they want
to remain in his administration, to follow his example. IOW, don't
expect to see *much* done about this problem, at a government level,
on his shift.

Lg
Gunner
2005-07-08 18:42:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Hank
2005-07-08 19:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gummer, you sound like one of those bloated Chamber of Commerce
assholes.

Will
Gunner
2005-07-08 21:18:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:00:57 -0500, Hank
Post by Hank
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gummer, you sound like one of those bloated Chamber of Commerce
assholes.
Will
Shrug..Im a realist, and a thinker. Something perhaps you should
attempt to try. Its evident from your ad hom..you have little else of
import.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Rifleman
2005-07-08 21:20:11 UTC
Permalink
"Gunner" will you stop feeding the trolls and tell me what you need me for
( apart from target practise)
Graphic Queen
2005-07-08 19:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
BS
Post by Gunner
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-08 21:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
It is not my understanding that he knows squat about much of anything. He
has made one wrong turn after another ever since he took office. I have no
reason to believe he knows anything about what the effects would be of
controlling our borders or enforcing our immigration laws. There have been
no studies done on what the effects might be of controlling our border,
enforcing immigration law, or limiting immigration, so there is nothing for
him to base such a belief on. However, that he harbors such a belief is
very much in keeping with the non-existent WMDs he sent Americans to war
over. I do not even believe he intends to leave a legacy for or of the
United States, but rather the contrary: he is apparently intent on the
dissolution of the United States, and the rise of corporatism and feudalism.
Immigration and third world momentum is but one of the tools he uses to
accomplish this goal, and illegal wars is another.

Bush ought to be impeached and tried for treason, at the very least. He
should then be presented to those international courts he is so fond of
wooing for trial as a war criminal. He deserves to either share a cell with
Saddam, or to take a long walk off a short pier.
Gunner
2005-07-09 05:37:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:10:15 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Bush ought to be impeached and tried for treason, at the very least. He
should then be presented to those international courts he is so fond of
wooing for trial as a war criminal. He deserves to either share a cell with
Saddam, or to take a long walk off a short pier.
Your opinion, which runs 180 degrees counter to mine, is noted. And
laughed at.

Shrug

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-09 12:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:10:15 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Bush ought to be impeached and tried for treason, at the very least. He
should then be presented to those international courts he is so fond of
wooing for trial as a war criminal. He deserves to either share a cell with
Saddam, or to take a long walk off a short pier.
Your opinion, which runs 180 degrees counter to mine, is noted. And
laughed at.
Shrug
Gunner
I find it rather incredible that Bush has not delivered on any of his
promises, and has acted counter to the values of his supposed core
constituency on virtually every issue, yet the Bush-bots continue to parrot
their support for him. I guess every petty tyrant and dictator throughout
history has always had their supporters. Even Saddam had supporters. At
least Saddam's supporters knew what they were supporting, whereas in Bush'
case, his supporters give the appearance of being trapped in the web of lies
and deceits that have been spun, never knowing the fate that awaits them.
Post by Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Scipio
2005-07-08 22:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
I doubt Mr Bush thinks of such things, he is simply serving the
interests of the people he grew up with.

Someone made a post here, I forget who or who he addressed, but he
made the point about the rounds of Plague deaths in Europe thinning
the peasantry to such a number that their value as laborers
skyrocketed. They took good advantage of it, a lot of serfs walked out
on their lords and began selling their services. It brought Europe out
of the Dark Ages, brought diversification of the economies. All sorts
of good things happened for Europe as a result of that decimation of
laborer numbers. The lords fought it, they tried to force serfs and
free labor back to pre-plague servitude, especially in England. But
those that adapted and changed their ways of doing things eventually
became far wealthier in the new economy than they ever could have
under the old.

I can't think of a historical documentary that doesn't cover this
event, it was key to change in Europe, pulling many of the serfs out
of the mud, markets created by laborers who suddenly had money to
spend, everything snowballed from there.

The Illegals influx serves to transfer cash out of the hands of
individual working people, it is gradually turning the middle class
into working poor. It belays innovation in production that utilizes
labor. Expect the local economies to de-diversify to a degree if
people don't have disposable cash. You can see that where Illegals
live.

The absence of labor influx has the opposing effect. I cannot think of
any good purpose served by this transfer, making working people
poorer. I definitely won't serve your interest in seeing the sticks of
racism aren't rubbed together.
Stuart Grey
2005-07-09 15:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
I think Bush grew up in Texas, has only met a civilized Mexicans who
worked for him and his father, and has a totally different view of them
than the average American who encounters illegal aliens. His view is
that of a rich rancher. Yeah, he may think he's doing the right thing,
but I don't think he believes he's saving oru nation's economy.

But Bush is dead on his butt when it comes to enforcing the laws, just
because he doesn't like that particular law.

He's not doing us any favors. He was a lot better than the guy he ran
against, but that doesn't say much.
Lets Roll
2005-07-10 02:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
I think Bush grew up in Texas, has only met a civilized Mexicans who
worked for him and his father, and has a totally different view of them
than the average American who encounters illegal aliens. His view is that
of a rich rancher. Yeah, he may think he's doing the right thing, but I
don't think he believes he's saving oru nation's economy.
But Bush is dead on his butt when it comes to enforcing the laws, just
because he doesn't like that particular law.
He's not doing us any favors. He was a lot better than the guy he ran
against, but that doesn't say much.
It used to be a fairly common practice in Texas ranching that if/when the
illegal alien workers got uppity or outlived their usefulness or appeal to
the rancher that employed them, for them to simply disappear, never to be
seen or heard from again. You would rarely if ever see them working
anywhere but on a ranch or farm. And I'm not talking 1800's; more like as
recently as the 1970's and 1980's. Needless to say, wealthy ranchers were
not exactly all above board in their dealings. Rex Cauble is one example of
a modern day wealthy rancher, busted like a big dog for using his private
plane to smuggle dope to his ranch, back in the late 70's or early 80's, and
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Gunner
2005-07-10 06:50:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:45:54 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
It used to be a fairly common practice in Texas ranching that if/when the
illegal alien workers got uppity or outlived their usefulness or appeal to
the rancher that employed them, for them to simply disappear, never to be
seen or heard from again. You would rarely if ever see them working
anywhere but on a ranch or farm. And I'm not talking 1800's; more like as
recently as the 1970's and 1980's. Needless to say, wealthy ranchers were
not exactly all above board in their dealings. Rex Cauble is one example of
a modern day wealthy rancher, busted like a big dog for using his private
plane to smuggle dope to his ranch, back in the late 70's or early 80's, and
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-10 14:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:45:54 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
It used to be a fairly common practice in Texas ranching that if/when the
illegal alien workers got uppity or outlived their usefulness or appeal to
the rancher that employed them, for them to simply disappear, never to be
seen or heard from again. You would rarely if ever see them working
anywhere but on a ranch or farm. And I'm not talking 1800's; more like as
recently as the 1970's and 1980's. Needless to say, wealthy ranchers were
not exactly all above board in their dealings. Rex Cauble is one example of
a modern day wealthy rancher, busted like a big dog for using his private
plane to smuggle dope to his ranch, back in the late 70's or early 80's, and
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.

You didn't think that question through very well, did you?

I don't particularly care if you believe or not. I can only tell you that I
spent a significant portion of my youth working on ranches and that it was
commonly accepted knowledge the fate of some illegal aliens who disappeared
without a trace from some ranches, and that some ranches had a worse
reputation for it than others. I did work on ranches in other states, and
it did not appear to be so common as it was in Texas, although it was not
anything I ever particularly inquired about it. I was working on a Texas
ranch when a series of weather conditions and soil erosion uncovered human
bones mingled among the cattle and animal bones in the ranch livestock
graveyard. An investigation was conducted, the bones had been there for a
long time, and to the best of my knowledge, the identity of the victim was
never discovered. The discovery must have put the wind up the sails of the
illegal aliens employed there, because the morning after the discovery of
the bones, all of the illegal alien ranch hands were gone. Poof!
Apparently they put some stock in the common knowledge, and left the same
way they had arrived, in the dead of night. On another ranch where I worked
the illegal aliens had a rather unique system going for themselves,
something of their own guest worker program I suppose. There were about 8
of them who took turns working for a period of months and rotating out to
return home to Mexico periodically. One day we would have Jose, Juan,
Jorge, and Jesus. The next morning we would wake up and have Silvio,
Guillermo, Santos, and Poncho, and they would be there for three or four
months until we woke up one morning to find them replaced again with Jose,
Juan, Jorge and Jesus.

Again, I would not be surprised if the Bush family was that type of rancher,
or was closely associated enough with the type during Jorge's misspent youth
to know where some of the bodies are buried. Outside the obvious interest
in cheap labor lobbyists, it would go a long way towards explaining his
bleeding heart sympathies for Mexican illegal aliens.
Post by Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-10 18:55:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Stuart Grey
2005-07-10 23:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
It's fair to quote his own experiences.

Based on his credibility, you can believe him or not.

But hell, this is the usenet. I wouldn't even believe me, if I didn't
have cites. :-)
Graphic Queen
2005-07-11 00:04:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:44:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
It's fair to quote his own experiences.
Based on his credibility, you can believe him or not.
But hell, this is the usenet. I wouldn't even believe me, if I didn't
have cites. :-)
And cites don't prove a damn thing either. I would believe someone's
experience before any cites, unless it was the experience of a few in
here like David, Juan, Sanders, or Walker. They are all liars and
traitors so anything they say is suspect.
Stuart Grey
2005-07-13 02:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graphic Queen
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:44:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
It's fair to quote his own experiences.
Based on his credibility, you can believe him or not.
But hell, this is the usenet. I wouldn't even believe me, if I didn't
have cites. :-)
And cites don't prove a damn thing either.
Not to a liberal. Liberals don't believe in objective facts, just
subjective interpretations. They don't like logic, either.

I was watching PBS this morning, and I was amazed that they had liberals
on television BRAGGING their disdain for logic and rational thought!
Post by Graphic Queen
I would believe someone's
experience before any cites, unless it was the experience of a few in
here like David, Juan, Sanders, or Walker. They are all liars and
traitors so anything they say is suspect.
I'm sure that you're very subjective in only allowing in "facts" that
don't rock your little idealic socialist workers Utopia fanatasy.
Graphic Queen
2005-07-13 13:54:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:38:33 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Graphic Queen
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:44:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
It's fair to quote his own experiences.
Based on his credibility, you can believe him or not.
But hell, this is the usenet. I wouldn't even believe me, if I didn't
have cites. :-)
And cites don't prove a damn thing either.
Not to a liberal. Liberals don't believe in objective facts, just
subjective interpretations. They don't like logic, either.
I was watching PBS this morning, and I was amazed that they had liberals
on television BRAGGING their disdain for logic and rational thought!
Post by Graphic Queen
I would believe someone's
experience before any cites, unless it was the experience of a few in
here like David, Juan, Sanders, or Walker. They are all liars and
traitors so anything they say is suspect.
I'm sure that you're very subjective in only allowing in "facts" that
don't rock your little idealic socialist workers Utopia fanatasy.
Actually, you are wrong of course, but then you must be a
liberal...not liking facts. I look at ALL facts, if they are provided.
Most of the time here the ones I mentioned don't provide facts at all.
They provide polls and such that slant their way. I don't trust any
poll done at any time by anyone because I know that numbers can be
made to say what the pollster wants.

Next time you post something as stupid as your post above, please get
some facts first because all you did was to show us all how ignorant
you are.

GQ
Stuart Grey
2005-07-13 15:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graphic Queen
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:38:33 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Graphic Queen
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:44:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
It's fair to quote his own experiences.
Based on his credibility, you can believe him or not.
But hell, this is the usenet. I wouldn't even believe me, if I didn't
have cites. :-)
And cites don't prove a damn thing either.
Not to a liberal. Liberals don't believe in objective facts, just
subjective interpretations. They don't like logic, either.
I was watching PBS this morning, and I was amazed that they had liberals
on television BRAGGING their disdain for logic and rational thought!
Post by Graphic Queen
I would believe someone's
experience before any cites, unless it was the experience of a few in
here like David, Juan, Sanders, or Walker. They are all liars and
traitors so anything they say is suspect.
I'm sure that you're very subjective in only allowing in "facts" that
don't rock your little idealic socialist workers Utopia fanatasy.
Actually, you are wrong of course, but then you must be a
liberal...not liking facts. I look at ALL facts, if they are provided.
Most of the time here the ones I mentioned don't provide facts at all.
They provide polls and such that slant their way. I don't trust any
poll done at any time by anyone because I know that numbers can be
made to say what the pollster wants.
Next time you post something as stupid as your post above, please get
some facts first because all you did was to show us all how ignorant
you are.
Let's see. You don't like cites, and the facts have to be your own.

Idiot.
Graphic Queen
2005-07-13 16:43:29 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:11:47 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Graphic Queen
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:38:33 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Graphic Queen
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:44:18 -0700, Stuart Grey
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
It's fair to quote his own experiences.
Based on his credibility, you can believe him or not.
But hell, this is the usenet. I wouldn't even believe me, if I didn't
have cites. :-)
And cites don't prove a damn thing either.
Not to a liberal. Liberals don't believe in objective facts, just
subjective interpretations. They don't like logic, either.
I was watching PBS this morning, and I was amazed that they had liberals
on television BRAGGING their disdain for logic and rational thought!
Post by Graphic Queen
I would believe someone's
experience before any cites, unless it was the experience of a few in
here like David, Juan, Sanders, or Walker. They are all liars and
traitors so anything they say is suspect.
I'm sure that you're very subjective in only allowing in "facts" that
don't rock your little idealic socialist workers Utopia fanatasy.
Actually, you are wrong of course, but then you must be a
liberal...not liking facts. I look at ALL facts, if they are provided.
Most of the time here the ones I mentioned don't provide facts at all.
They provide polls and such that slant their way. I don't trust any
poll done at any time by anyone because I know that numbers can be
made to say what the pollster wants.
Next time you post something as stupid as your post above, please get
some facts first because all you did was to show us all how ignorant
you are.
Let's see. You don't like cites, and the facts have to be your own.
Idiot.
PLONK another ifno0ranct idiot illegal lover.
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 00:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there have never been
any news articles written about crimes that were never been reported.
Apparently, that fine distinction is lost on you. In context, your request
to provide cites doesn't even make any sense.
Bush simply is not as innocent as you want to believe. He fits the profile
of the type of ranchers that would do such a thing, especially in his glory
days as a doper and a drunk.
He has a few connections to the drug cartels as well.

http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html

"Dime con quién andas y te diré quién eres.
Tell me who you side with and I will tell you who you are."
- "George W. Bush for President" web site

by Julie Reynolds
Research assistance by Victor Almazán and Ana Leonor Rojo

Those who say that George W. Bush has scant knowledge of foreign affairs don't
understand his family's relationship with Mexico.
If one event could be said to make that relationship visible, it had to be
the state dinner given eleven years ago by President Bush for Mexico's
president, Carlos Salinas. It was an elegant yet boisterous gala, where the
biggest movers and shakers in Texas and Mexico congregated and celebrated.
This group was to become W's Mexican legacy, a gift of ties and connections
passed on from the father to his son.
What was not visible was that the group included two men with numerous links
to drug cartel figures. These men helped George W. Bush win the Latino vote
in Texas. Which raises a few questions: How did these guys get into the Bush
circle? What else do they do for him? And, to rephrase a famous query, what
did the presidential candidate know and when did he know it?
Post by Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Sue
2005-07-11 02:18:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
My, oh, my. When I used my considerable experience with illegals and
legals in the course of my job I was informed by you or one of your
co-horts that anecdotal evidence was *no* evidence at all. Hypocrisy
seems to be rampant with you. I still find it amusing that you
believe I'm not against illegals since I don't shop the way you do and
yet you people keep citing some survey where 80% of the respondents
are against them but you have no idea if those people shop only in
stores that are owned, operated and staffed by US citizens.
Interesting double standard you have there.
Sue
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 07:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
My, oh, my. When I used my considerable experience with illegals and
legals in the course of my job I was informed by you or one of your
co-horts that anecdotal evidence was *no* evidence at all.
It wasn't me, sweet cheeks. But the fact that is was not me denigrating you
for presentation of anecdotal commentary does not negate the fact that I
believe illegal aliens should receive nothing more than a boot in the ass
back across the border, no matter how many anchor babies they spawn or how
desperate they are.
Post by Sue
Hypocrisy
seems to be rampant with you.
That's your forte.
Post by Sue
I still find it amusing that you
believe I'm not against illegals since I don't shop the way you do and
yet you people keep citing some survey where 80% of the respondents
are against them but you have no idea if those people shop only in
stores that are owned, operated and staffed by US citizens.
Interesting double standard you have there.
Sue
As much as it hurts your feelings, polls _do_ indicate 80% of the
respondents are against illegal immigration.
Obviously, not enough people avoid businesses that are owned by and staffed
with illegal aliens. If even a portion of that 80% could be convinced to
stop patronizing those businesses, intervention by the federal government to
enforce immigration laws would become nearly a moot point. Businesses ever
greedy for the profit margins would begin to self-regulate, and would get
over their lust for ever cheaper labor if they were forced to watch
Americans voting with their feet to take their dollars to the American owned
and operated business down the street. Unfortunately, Americans in that 80%
margin must first be informed of their self destructive behavior of
patronizing businesses that employ illegal aliens and cheap foreign labor,
and then be weaned off their self-destructive behaviors. The first step of
weaning them off their destructive habits is to make it easy for them to
find positive alternatives. In some respects, it is not much different from
seeking rehabilitation for a drug addict or an alcoholic.

In the area where I live, we have begun to make inroads by compiling a
database of local businesses that are American owned and operated, and
distributing and circulating that list. As the list is being compiled
through input from several hundred members of our local organization, it has
been surprising how quickly the list is growing, and how many people who are
not members of the organization - yet -are interested in obtaining a copy of
the list. The organization recently began advertising on local radio shows,
and that is also increasing membership rolls at a fair clip. One of the
first things new members are offered is the list of businesses and they are
asked to contribute to the list any businesses they know of which are
American owned and operated. Follow-ups on submissions are conducted by
senior members to assure integrity as time permits. It has become one of
the most popular features and offerings from the organization, with the
business owners on the list frequently requesting a copy of the list to
distribute and make use of as well. Feedback from several businesses owners
on the list are already reporting a brisk increase in their businesses, and
cite the reason as getting new customers from being on that list.

I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will I be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would expect you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you do NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Tiny Human Ferret
2005-07-11 07:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
My, oh, my. When I used my considerable experience with illegals and
legals in the course of my job I was informed by you or one of your
co-horts that anecdotal evidence was *no* evidence at all.
It wasn't me, sweet cheeks. But the fact that is was not me denigrating you
for presentation of anecdotal commentary does not negate the fact that I
believe illegal aliens should receive nothing more than a boot in the ass
back across the border, no matter how many anchor babies they spawn or how
desperate they are.
Post by Sue
Hypocrisy
seems to be rampant with you.
That's your forte.
Post by Sue
I still find it amusing that you
believe I'm not against illegals since I don't shop the way you do and
yet you people keep citing some survey where 80% of the respondents
are against them but you have no idea if those people shop only in
stores that are owned, operated and staffed by US citizens.
Interesting double standard you have there.
Sue
As much as it hurts your feelings, polls _do_ indicate 80% of the
respondents are against illegal immigration.
Obviously, not enough people avoid businesses that are owned by and staffed
with illegal aliens. If even a portion of that 80% could be convinced to
stop patronizing those businesses, intervention by the federal government to
enforce immigration laws would become nearly a moot point. Businesses ever
greedy for the profit margins would begin to self-regulate, and would get
over their lust for ever cheaper labor if they were forced to watch
Americans voting with their feet to take their dollars to the American owned
and operated business down the street. Unfortunately, Americans in that 80%
margin must first be informed of their self destructive behavior of
patronizing businesses that employ illegal aliens and cheap foreign labor,
and then be weaned off their self-destructive behaviors.
The problem here is that there's no certain way for consumers to tell
that businesses are employing illegal aliens. Indeed, that is part of
what the REAL ID Act is meant to stop, businesses who hire in good faith
(as well as those who hire other than in good faith) and have no way to
verify the nationality or immigration-status of applicants who present
ID which might be top-quality forgeries.
Post by Lets Roll
The first step of
weaning them off their destructive habits is to make it easy for them to
find positive alternatives. In some respects, it is not much different from
seeking rehabilitation for a drug addict or an alcoholic.
In the area where I live, we have begun to make inroads by compiling a
database of local businesses that are American owned and operated, and
distributing and circulating that list. As the list is being compiled
through input from several hundred members of our local organization, it has
been surprising how quickly the list is growing, and how many people who are
not members of the organization - yet -are interested in obtaining a copy of
the list.
Hopefully not too many of that latter group are "the opposition" trying
to find out which businesses they haven't yet penetrated and co-opted... ;)
Post by Lets Roll
The organization recently began advertising on local radio shows,
and that is also increasing membership rolls at a fair clip. One of the
first things new members are offered is the list of businesses and they are
asked to contribute to the list any businesses they know of which are
American owned and operated.
More important is knowing whether or not those businesses have any
illegal-alien or out-of-status employees.
Post by Lets Roll
Follow-ups on submissions are conducted by
senior members to assure integrity as time permits. It has become one of
the most popular features and offerings from the organization, with the
business owners on the list frequently requesting a copy of the list to
distribute and make use of as well. Feedback from several businesses owners
on the list are already reporting a brisk increase in their businesses, and
cite the reason as getting new customers from being on that list.
<snips>
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
==================================================================
"Sometimes, Evil drives a mini-van."
--Desperate Housewives
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 08:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lets Roll
As much as it hurts your feelings, polls _do_ indicate 80% of the
respondents are against illegal immigration.
Obviously, not enough people avoid businesses that are owned by and
staffed with illegal aliens. If even a portion of that 80% could be
convinced to stop patronizing those businesses, intervention by the
federal government to enforce immigration laws would become nearly a moot
point. Businesses ever greedy for the profit margins would begin to
self-regulate, and would get over their lust for ever cheaper labor if
they were forced to watch Americans voting with their feet to take their
dollars to the American owned and operated business down the street.
Unfortunately, Americans in that 80% margin must first be informed of
their self destructive behavior of patronizing businesses that employ
illegal aliens and cheap foreign labor, and then be weaned off their
self-destructive behaviors.
The problem here is that there's no certain way for consumers to tell that
businesses are employing illegal aliens. Indeed, that is part of what the
REAL ID Act is meant to stop, businesses who hire in good faith (as well
as those who hire other than in good faith) and have no way to verify the
nationality or immigration-status of applicants who present ID which might
be top-quality forgeries.
The government is dragging their feet on the REAL ID Act, not implementing
it until 2008. From a poltical view point, networking to patronize
exclusively American owned and operated businesses is a positive step to
reinforce how serious the issue of illegal immigration and massive
immigration has become to Americans. From a practical view point, there are
those who are concerened about safety and quality, apart from the political
and economic aspects. When the time comes for implementation of REAL ID,
the cheap labor and open border lobbyists might be less inclined to pressure
for delays, and if such steps are successful enough, might even decide to
pressure for more speedy implementation so their profit margins will stop
declining. There might also be more Americans unafflicted by third world
diseases from eating in restaurants or receiving services delivered by
uninspected migrants, while at the same time enjoying a wider range of
businesses to choose from than they might be able to seek out on their own
as individuals. I know I certainly appreciate being made aware of
additional restaurants where I can dine in relative confidence of my safety.
The few I had painstakingly sought out were getting old.
Post by Lets Roll
The first step of
weaning them off their destructive habits is to make it easy for them to
find positive alternatives. In some respects, it is not much different
from seeking rehabilitation for a drug addict or an alcoholic.
In the area where I live, we have begun to make inroads by compiling a
database of local businesses that are American owned and operated, and
distributing and circulating that list. As the list is being compiled
through input from several hundred members of our local organization, it
has been surprising how quickly the list is growing, and how many people
who are not members of the organization - yet -are interested in
obtaining a copy of the list.
Hopefully not too many of that latter group are "the opposition" trying to
find out which businesses they haven't yet penetrated and co-opted... ;)
It is not likely. The majority of the businesses on the list so far, with
the exception of one bank, are independent contractors or family owned and
operated businesses, or sole proprietorships. I don't think there is a
single corporation on the list as yet; at least certainly not any major
ones. A large number of the organization membership are business owners as
well, and naturally they are included on the list. There was a little upset
a while back when some of the officers, in the penultimate hypocracy, were
discovered to be employing illegal aliens to do yard work and remodeling
work on some of their properties, but they were amply castigated and are no
longer over seeing the organization. That discovery was part of what
prompted organizing this database, which had already been discussed but not
acted upon, for obvious reasons in hind sight. Integrity of the business
listing might become problematic later as the organization and the list
itself grows. The organization promotes the SAVE program, and I think it
would be an excellent idea to make it a requirement for a business to be
enrolled and participating in the SAVE program in order to be on the listing
. I don't think they have applied that requirement in this infant stage of
the project yet, but I am definitely going to make that recommendation to
them with the suggestion that they implement it ASAP.
Post by Lets Roll
The organization recently began advertising on local radio shows,
and that is also increasing membership rolls at a fair clip. One of the
first things new members are offered is the list of businesses and they
are asked to contribute to the list any businesses they know of which are
American owned and operated.
More important is knowing whether or not those businesses have any
illegal-alien or out-of-status employees.
Absolutely. Again, I think the requirement to be enrolled and participating
in the SAVE program in order to be listed would resolve that issue.
Post by Lets Roll
Follow-ups on submissions are conducted by
senior members to assure integrity as time permits. It has become one of
the most popular features and offerings from the organization, with the
business owners on the list frequently requesting a copy of the list to
distribute and make use of as well. Feedback from several businesses
owners on the list are already reporting a brisk increase in their
businesses, and cite the reason as getting new customers from being on
that list.
<snips>
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
==================================================================
"Sometimes, Evil drives a mini-van."
--Desperate Housewives
Gunner
2005-07-11 09:40:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:33:11 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
The government is dragging their feet on the REAL ID Act, not implementing
it until 2008.
First the fringe kooks on both end of the political spectrum screams
and hollars imprications at DC for suggesting a National ID card..now
they are begging for one.

I wish you nutbars would make up your minds.

Personally, Im libertarian, and think anyone who demands that I must
have ID should be shot.

Shrug

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 15:33:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:33:11 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
The government is dragging their feet on the REAL ID Act, not implementing
it until 2008.
First the fringe kooks on both end of the political spectrum screams
and hollars imprications at DC for suggesting a National ID card..now
they are begging for one.
I've always thought it would be more effective if the feds simply returned
to conducting raids on employers, applying the "ignorance is no excuse
clause, and throwing their butts in jail and the illegal aliens out of the
country. Admittedly, in lieu of that, the REAL ID Act is a weak substitute
for enforcing the laws. But as long as they are going to do it, there is no
plausible excuse for delay.
Post by Gunner
I wish you nutbars would make up your minds.
I wish you Bush-bots would open your eyes.
Post by Gunner
Personally, Im libertarian, and think anyone who demands that I must
have ID should be shot.
Shrug
Sounds like you will be shooting a lot of people once the REAL ID Act is
finally implemented.
Shrug
Post by Gunner
Gunner
Scipio
2005-07-11 17:44:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:33:10 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:33:11 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
The government is dragging their feet on the REAL ID Act, not implementing
it until 2008.
First the fringe kooks on both end of the political spectrum screams
and hollars imprications at DC for suggesting a National ID card..now
they are begging for one.
I've always thought it would be more effective if the feds simply returned
to conducting raids on employers, applying the "ignorance is no excuse
clause, and throwing their butts in jail and the illegal aliens out of the
country. Admittedly, in lieu of that, the REAL ID Act is a weak substitute
for enforcing the laws. But as long as they are going to do it, there is no
plausible excuse for delay.
Post by Gunner
I wish you nutbars would make up your minds.
I wish you Bush-bots would open your eyes.
Post by Gunner
Personally, Im libertarian, and think anyone who demands that I must
have ID should be shot.
Keep yer powder dry, Tex.
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Shrug
Sounds like you will be shooting a lot of people once the REAL ID Act is
finally implemented.
Shrug
The wierd thing about these national ID arguments is that the Real ID
act was just a recogition that state licenses ARE our national IDs. It
doesn't create anything, it's just an anti-fraud law that is supposed
to keep people who aren't entitled to our state-issued national IDs
from obtaining them. Here in Bizarro America, the act will allow
states to issue "Drivers Certificates" to people (like Illegals) who
aren't allowed Drivers Licenses. These certificates allow them to...
drive. Just as if they had Drivers Licenses.

There could be no stronger recognition that state DLs are our National
IDs than that. And you pretty-much need a Drivers License or State
Identification to get around in this society, so.. let the shootin
commence I guess. I reckon ya start with the damn check cashiers at
them newfangled super-markets <o O>
Tiny Human Ferret
2005-07-11 22:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scipio
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:33:10 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:33:11 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
The government is dragging their feet on the REAL ID Act, not implementing
it until 2008.
First the fringe kooks on both end of the political spectrum screams
and hollars imprications at DC for suggesting a National ID card..now
they are begging for one.
I've always thought it would be more effective if the feds simply returned
to conducting raids on employers, applying the "ignorance is no excuse
clause, and throwing their butts in jail and the illegal aliens out of the
country. Admittedly, in lieu of that, the REAL ID Act is a weak substitute
for enforcing the laws. But as long as they are going to do it, there is no
plausible excuse for delay.
Post by Gunner
I wish you nutbars would make up your minds.
I wish you Bush-bots would open your eyes.
Post by Gunner
Personally, Im libertarian, and think anyone who demands that I must
have ID should be shot.
Keep yer powder dry, Tex.
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Shrug
Sounds like you will be shooting a lot of people once the REAL ID Act is
finally implemented.
Shrug
The wierd thing about these national ID arguments is that the Real ID
act was just a recogition that state licenses ARE our national IDs. It
doesn't create anything, it's just an anti-fraud law that is supposed
to keep people who aren't entitled to our state-issued national IDs
from obtaining them. Here in Bizarro America, the act will allow
states to issue "Drivers Certificates" to people (like Illegals) who
aren't allowed Drivers Licenses. These certificates allow them to...
drive. Just as if they had Drivers Licenses.
However, those "certificates" are not valid ID for banking, money
transfers, or job applications and Form I-9.
Post by Scipio
There could be no stronger recognition that state DLs are our National
IDs than that. And you pretty-much need a Drivers License or State
Identification to get around in this society, so.. let the shootin
commence I guess. I reckon ya start with the damn check cashiers at
them newfangled super-markets <o O>
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
==================================================================
"Sometimes, Evil drives a mini-van."
--Desperate Housewives
Scipio
2005-07-11 23:55:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:56:39 -0400, Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Scipio
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:33:10 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:33:11 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
The government is dragging their feet on the REAL ID Act, not implementing
it until 2008.
First the fringe kooks on both end of the political spectrum screams
and hollars imprications at DC for suggesting a National ID card..now
they are begging for one.
I've always thought it would be more effective if the feds simply returned
to conducting raids on employers, applying the "ignorance is no excuse
clause, and throwing their butts in jail and the illegal aliens out of the
country. Admittedly, in lieu of that, the REAL ID Act is a weak substitute
for enforcing the laws. But as long as they are going to do it, there is no
plausible excuse for delay.
Post by Gunner
I wish you nutbars would make up your minds.
I wish you Bush-bots would open your eyes.
Post by Gunner
Personally, Im libertarian, and think anyone who demands that I must
have ID should be shot.
Keep yer powder dry, Tex.
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Shrug
Sounds like you will be shooting a lot of people once the REAL ID Act is
finally implemented.
Shrug
The wierd thing about these national ID arguments is that the Real ID
act was just a recogition that state licenses ARE our national IDs. It
doesn't create anything, it's just an anti-fraud law that is supposed
to keep people who aren't entitled to our state-issued national IDs
from obtaining them. Here in Bizarro America, the act will allow
states to issue "Drivers Certificates" to people (like Illegals) who
aren't allowed Drivers Licenses. These certificates allow them to...
drive. Just as if they had Drivers Licenses.
However, those "certificates" are not valid ID for banking, money
transfers, or job applications and Form I-9.
I guess that was my point, wasn't it? You need our state-issued
National IDs for some of those things. For driving, the words "Driver
License" at the top is just an added driving privilege on our National
ID Cards. You can apply for that privilege separately, if you have no
right to be in the US.
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Scipio
There could be no stronger recognition that state DLs are our National
IDs than that. And you pretty-much need a Drivers License or State
Identification to get around in this society, so.. let the shootin
commence I guess. I reckon ya start with the damn check cashiers at
them newfangled super-markets <o O>
Gunner
2005-07-11 09:38:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will I be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would expect you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you do NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....

"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"

Snicker

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 16:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will I be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would expect you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you do NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....
"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"
Snicker
Simpleton interpretation by a simpleton mind.
Post by Gunner
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-12 01:24:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:41:09 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will I be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would expect you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you do NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....
"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"
Snicker
Simpleton interpretation by a simpleton mind.
Occams Razor.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-12 03:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:41:09 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will I be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would expect you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you do NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....
"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"
Snicker
Simpleton interpretation by a simpleton mind.
Occams Razor.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Gunner
Pot-kettle-black.
Gunner
2005-07-12 06:06:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:18:39 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:41:09 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will I be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would expect you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you do NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....
"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"
Snicker
Simpleton interpretation by a simpleton mind.
Occams Razor.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Gunner
Pot-kettle-black.
blink blink.....huh?

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-12 12:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:18:39 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:41:09 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will
I
be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would
expect
you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you
do
NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....
"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"
Snicker
Simpleton interpretation by a simpleton mind.
Occams Razor.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Gunner
Pot-kettle-black.
blink blink.....huh?
Gunner
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Simple.
Post by Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-12 16:54:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:32:05 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:18:39 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:41:09 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:20:44 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I realize efforts are wasted on you. You have made that utterly clear,
repeatedly. But in as much as you will not be persuaded, neither will
I
be
persuaded by you to abandon efforts that are slowly but surely paying off,
to the benefit of our local American owned and operated businesses and
American citizens. You are very smug in your disparaging of efforts and
ideas, but I have never seen you make any positive suggestions or
contributions of your own, on any subject. Not that anyone would
expect
you
to. There are four types of people in this world: those that make things
happen, those that watch things happen, those that let things happen, and
those that wonder what happened. It is very plain which category you
do
NOT
fall into, and the others are mostly irrelevant when it comes to finding
solutions to problems.
Translation.....
"Your a bad person because you dont agree with me"
Snicker
Simpleton interpretation by a simpleton mind.
Occams Razor.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Gunner
Pot-kettle-black.
blink blink.....huh?
Gunner
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Simple.
Indeed. And the Pot-kettle-black comment was implying what exactly?

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-11 02:22:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there have never been
any news articles written about crimes that were never been reported.
Apparently, that fine distinction is lost on you. In context, your request
to provide cites doesn't even make any sense.
Bush simply is not as innocent as you want to believe. He fits the profile
of the type of ranchers that would do such a thing, especially in his glory
days as a doper and a drunk.
He has a few connections to the drug cartels as well.
http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html
"Dime con quién andas y te diré quién eres.
Tell me who you side with and I will tell you who you are."
- "George W. Bush for President" web site
by Julie Reynolds
Research assistance by Victor Almazán and Ana Leonor Rojo
Those who say that George W. Bush has scant knowledge of foreign affairs don't
understand his family's relationship with Mexico.
If one event could be said to make that relationship visible, it had to be
the state dinner given eleven years ago by President Bush for Mexico's
president, Carlos Salinas. It was an elegant yet boisterous gala, where the
biggest movers and shakers in Texas and Mexico congregated and celebrated.
This group was to become W's Mexican legacy, a gift of ties and connections
passed on from the father to his son.
What was not visible was that the group included two men with numerous links
to drug cartel figures. These men helped George W. Bush win the Latino vote
in Texas. Which raises a few questions: How did these guys get into the Bush
circle? What else do they do for him? And, to rephrase a famous query, what
did the presidential candidate know and when did he know it?
So you provide a leftwing hispanic semi-blog to back up your claims?
Sigh....smart..really smart.

All through your rant you state "may fit" "might be" "could".


Lets see come cold hard facts, ok? Something like...

"convicted drug dealer Roger Clinton is quoted as saying he supplied
coke to his brother, President Bill Clinton, and further stated Bill
had a nose like a Hoover"

Thats a well established quote/factoid.

Care to give it another try?

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 03:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there have never been
any news articles written about crimes that were never been reported.
Apparently, that fine distinction is lost on you. In context, your request
to provide cites doesn't even make any sense.
Bush simply is not as innocent as you want to believe. He fits the profile
of the type of ranchers that would do such a thing, especially in his glory
days as a doper and a drunk.
He has a few connections to the drug cartels as well.
http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html
"Dime con quién andas y te diré quién eres.
Tell me who you side with and I will tell you who you are."
- "George W. Bush for President" web site
by Julie Reynolds
Research assistance by Victor Almazán and Ana Leonor Rojo
Those who say that George W. Bush has scant knowledge of foreign affairs don't
understand his family's relationship with Mexico.
If one event could be said to make that relationship visible, it had to be
the state dinner given eleven years ago by President Bush for Mexico's
president, Carlos Salinas. It was an elegant yet boisterous gala, where the
biggest movers and shakers in Texas and Mexico congregated and celebrated.
This group was to become W's Mexican legacy, a gift of ties and connections
passed on from the father to his son.
What was not visible was that the group included two men with numerous links
to drug cartel figures. These men helped George W. Bush win the Latino vote
in Texas. Which raises a few questions: How did these guys get into the Bush
circle? What else do they do for him? And, to rephrase a famous query, what
did the presidential candidate know and when did he know it?
So you provide a leftwing hispanic semi-blog to back up your claims?
Sigh....smart..really smart.
And you being a bona-fide Bush-bot would remain devoted to worshiping him
even if he grew horns and started breathing fire before your very eyes.
Post by Sue
All through your rant you state "may fit" "might be" "could".
Actually, no, I did not use any of those words or phrases in any of the
preceding posts.
I was not uncertain about my personal observations at all, and did not
express them using any terms of abiguity.
You are again deliberately obfuscating by confusing the text of an article
whose source you skeptical of with anecdotal words and assertions of what I
know to have been true at one time in the past about some ranching
operations in Texas.
You are certainly coming up with some very weak excuses tonight.
It's getting harder all the time to defend Bush as being a saint that walks
on water, isn't it?
Post by Sue
Lets see come cold hard facts, ok? Something like...
"convicted drug dealer Roger Clinton is quoted as saying he supplied
coke to his brother, President Bill Clinton, and further stated Bill
had a nose like a Hoover"
Thats a well established quote/factoid.
And Bush and Clinton are great buddies now days, too. With both of them
having a connection to drugs, it makes you wonder just what they do in their
spare time. The use of all that fairy dust probably has as strong an
influence on Bush' refusal to control our borders as much as anything else.
The man definitely ain't right in the head. And that ain't sayin' Clinton
is or ever has been any prize, either. I would give anything for the
transcript of that anti-American speech he made in Austrailia not too long
after 9/11. It was almost as bad as Bush' first State of the Union Address.
IMHO, we have gone 12 years without an American President to lead and
represent the American people. So it ain't no wonder the country is falling
apart at the seams.
Post by Sue
Care to give it another try?
Olivia Newton John wrote a song for all you dedicated Bush-bots a long time
ago.

Guess mine is not the first heart broken,
my eyes are not the first to cry I'm not the first to know,
there's just no gettin' over you
Hello, I'm just a fool who's willing to sit around
and wait for you
But baby can't you see, there's nothin' else
for me to do I'm hopelessly devoted to you
But now there's nowhere to hide,
since you pushed my love aside I'm not in my head,
hopelessly devoted to you
Hopelessly devoted to you,
hopelessly devoted to you
My head is saying "fool, forget him",
my heart is saying "don't let go"
Hold on to the end, that's what I intend to do
I'm hopelessly devoted to you
But now there's nowhere to hide,
since you pushed my love aside I'm not in my head,
hopelessly devoted to you
Hopelessly devoted to you,
hopelessly devoted to you

So, the answer to your question is "No thanks. You're hopelessly devoted,
and as such are hopeless."
Post by Sue
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-11 06:37:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:01:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush being that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough so that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there have never been
any news articles written about crimes that were never been reported.
Apparently, that fine distinction is lost on you. In context, your request
to provide cites doesn't even make any sense.
Bush simply is not as innocent as you want to believe. He fits the profile
of the type of ranchers that would do such a thing, especially in his glory
days as a doper and a drunk.
He has a few connections to the drug cartels as well.
http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html
"Dime con quién andas y te diré quién eres.
Tell me who you side with and I will tell you who you are."
- "George W. Bush for President" web site
by Julie Reynolds
Research assistance by Victor Almazán and Ana Leonor Rojo
Those who say that George W. Bush has scant knowledge of foreign affairs don't
understand his family's relationship with Mexico.
If one event could be said to make that relationship visible, it had to be
the state dinner given eleven years ago by President Bush for Mexico's
president, Carlos Salinas. It was an elegant yet boisterous gala, where the
biggest movers and shakers in Texas and Mexico congregated and celebrated.
This group was to become W's Mexican legacy, a gift of ties and connections
passed on from the father to his son.
What was not visible was that the group included two men with numerous links
to drug cartel figures. These men helped George W. Bush win the Latino vote
in Texas. Which raises a few questions: How did these guys get into the Bush
circle? What else do they do for him? And, to rephrase a famous query, what
did the presidential candidate know and when did he know it?
So you provide a leftwing hispanic semi-blog to back up your claims?
Sigh....smart..really smart.
And you being a bona-fide Bush-bot would remain devoted to worshiping him
even if he grew horns and started breathing fire before your very eyes.
Your opinion, such as it is..is noted.
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
All through your rant you state "may fit" "might be" "could".
Actually, no, I did not use any of those words or phrases in any of the
preceding posts.
I was not uncertain about my personal observations at all, and did not
express them using any terms of abiguity.
You are again deliberately obfuscating by confusing the text of an article
whose source you skeptical of with anecdotal words and assertions of what I
know to have been true at one time in the past about some ranching
operations in Texas.
You are certainly coming up with some very weak excuses tonight.
It's getting harder all the time to defend Bush as being a saint that walks
on water, isn't it?
No..actually its not, based on those that hate him so badly. When the
nutcases start presenting blogs and Leftist blogs as some proof....
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
Lets see come cold hard facts, ok? Something like...
"convicted drug dealer Roger Clinton is quoted as saying he supplied
coke to his brother, President Bill Clinton, and further stated Bill
had a nose like a Hoover"
Thats a well established quote/factoid.
And Bush and Clinton are great buddies now days, too. With both of them
having a connection to drugs, it makes you wonder just what they do in their
spare time. The use of all that fairy dust probably has as strong an
influence on Bush' refusal to control our borders as much as anything else.
The man definitely ain't right in the head. And that ain't sayin' Clinton
is or ever has been any prize, either. I would give anything for the
transcript of that anti-American speech he made in Austrailia not too long
after 9/11. It was almost as bad as Bush' first State of the Union Address.
IMHO, we have gone 12 years without an American President to lead and
represent the American people. So it ain't no wonder the country is falling
apart at the seams.
Once again you make an unsubstanciated claim ripe with what ifs and
maybes.
I wonder...people of your caliber often tend towards outre sexual
predilections and perversions, beastiality, homosexuality,
paedophilia, necrophilia. Based on this, the phases of the moon, the
current sunspot cycle and reading between the lines of your posts..I
really have to wonder if you are humping the neighbors boxer dog, and
the little 4 yr old that owns him. So..what do you do with your spare
time?

Now dont deny it, it only makes you look like a loon when you deny
what everyone knows to be true. The Illuminati and the Masons have it
on good authority that you are also into the rough trade gay thing as
a bottom. In fact, it could be that you are the door prize for the
Saturday Night Saturnela, and your ass might be hurting right about
now.

Ayup..its no wonder the country is falling apart at the seams.
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
Care to give it another try?
Olivia Newton John wrote a song for all you dedicated Bush-bots a long time
ago.
Guess mine is not the first heart broken,
my eyes are not the first to cry I'm not the first to know,
there's just no gettin' over you
Hello, I'm just a fool who's willing to sit around
and wait for you
But baby can't you see, there's nothin' else
for me to do I'm hopelessly devoted to you
But now there's nowhere to hide,
since you pushed my love aside I'm not in my head,
hopelessly devoted to you
Hopelessly devoted to you,
hopelessly devoted to you
My head is saying "fool, forget him",
my heart is saying "don't let go"
Hold on to the end, that's what I intend to do
I'm hopelessly devoted to you
But now there's nowhere to hide,
since you pushed my love aside I'm not in my head,
hopelessly devoted to you
Hopelessly devoted to you,
hopelessly devoted to you
So, the answer to your question is "No thanks. You're hopelessly devoted,
and as such are hopeless."
How much does your Top pay you to be the Door Prize?

Its possible you might be doing it for free. Maybe.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-11 18:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:01:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:26:36 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:51:14 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
with a little tax evasion thrown in also, IIRC. I suspect Bush
being
that
ilk of wealthy rancher, or closely associated with the type, enough
so
that
he knows where some of the bodies are buried.
Interesting claim. You do have cites for the murder of workers,
correct?
Gunner
Oh, but of course. Let me do a google to find one of the numerous news
articles published about the murders of people that officially were never
known to be in the US and that no one ever filed a report about when they
disappeared from the usually remote ranches comprised of thousands of acres
where they had been working.
You didn't think that question through very well, did you?
Please answer the question with cites. You know by now..that when I
ask for cites..I expect them and what they should consist of . Your
long following paragraph was hardly a cite...
Gunner
Like I said before, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.
You're getting as bad as the three stooges with trying to obfuscate, too.
I didn't provide comments as a cite; I gave them as anecdote, from personal
experience and personal knowledge.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there have never been
any news articles written about crimes that were never been reported.
Apparently, that fine distinction is lost on you. In context, your request
to provide cites doesn't even make any sense.
Bush simply is not as innocent as you want to believe. He fits the profile
of the type of ranchers that would do such a thing, especially in his glory
days as a doper and a drunk.
He has a few connections to the drug cartels as well.
http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html
"Dime con quién andas y te diré quién eres.
Tell me who you side with and I will tell you who you are."
- "George W. Bush for President" web site
by Julie Reynolds
Research assistance by Victor Almazán and Ana Leonor Rojo
Those who say that George W. Bush has scant knowledge of foreign affairs don't
understand his family's relationship with Mexico.
If one event could be said to make that relationship visible, it had to be
the state dinner given eleven years ago by President Bush for Mexico's
president, Carlos Salinas. It was an elegant yet boisterous gala, where the
biggest movers and shakers in Texas and Mexico congregated and celebrated.
This group was to become W's Mexican legacy, a gift of ties and connections
passed on from the father to his son.
What was not visible was that the group included two men with numerous links
to drug cartel figures. These men helped George W. Bush win the Latino vote
in Texas. Which raises a few questions: How did these guys get into the Bush
circle? What else do they do for him? And, to rephrase a famous query, what
did the presidential candidate know and when did he know it?
So you provide a leftwing hispanic semi-blog to back up your claims?
Sigh....smart..really smart.
And you being a bona-fide Bush-bot would remain devoted to worshiping him
even if he grew horns and started breathing fire before your very eyes.
Your opinion, such as it is..is noted.
As is your blind devotion to Bush.
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
All through your rant you state "may fit" "might be" "could".
Actually, no, I did not use any of those words or phrases in any of the
preceding posts.
I was not uncertain about my personal observations at all, and did not
express them using any terms of abiguity.
You are again deliberately obfuscating by confusing the text of an article
whose source you skeptical of with anecdotal words and assertions of what I
know to have been true at one time in the past about some ranching
operations in Texas.
You are certainly coming up with some very weak excuses tonight.
It's getting harder all the time to defend Bush as being a saint that walks
on water, isn't it?
No..actually its not, based on those that hate him so badly. When the
nutcases start presenting blogs and Leftist blogs as some proof....
If you want to woo favor to Bush' side, perhaps you could begin by listing a
few things he has accomplished on behalf of his social conservative
constituents.
I can't think of a single thing myself.
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
Lets see come cold hard facts, ok? Something like...
"convicted drug dealer Roger Clinton is quoted as saying he supplied
coke to his brother, President Bill Clinton, and further stated Bill
had a nose like a Hoover"
Thats a well established quote/factoid.
And Bush and Clinton are great buddies now days, too. With both of them
having a connection to drugs, it makes you wonder just what they do in their
spare time. The use of all that fairy dust probably has as strong an
influence on Bush' refusal to control our borders as much as anything else.
The man definitely ain't right in the head. And that ain't sayin' Clinton
is or ever has been any prize, either. I would give anything for the
transcript of that anti-American speech he made in Austrailia not too long
after 9/11. It was almost as bad as Bush' first State of the Union Address.
IMHO, we have gone 12 years without an American President to lead and
represent the American people. So it ain't no wonder the country is falling
apart at the seams.
Once again you make an unsubstanciated claim ripe with what ifs and
maybes.
I wonder...people of your caliber often tend towards outre sexual
predilections and perversions, beastiality, homosexuality,
paedophilia, necrophilia. Based on this, the phases of the moon, the
current sunspot cycle and reading between the lines of your posts..I
really have to wonder if you are humping the neighbors boxer dog, and
the little 4 yr old that owns him. So..what do you do with your spare
time?
And people of your caliber would still be hopelessly devoted to Bush even if
he sprouted horns and started breathing fire.
What is your fascination up with him? A little queer eye going on there,
maybe?
Post by Gunner
Now dont deny it, it only makes you look like a loon when you deny
what everyone knows to be true. The Illuminati and the Masons have it
on good authority that you are also into the rough trade gay thing as
a bottom. In fact, it could be that you are the door prize for the
Saturday Night Saturnela, and your ass might be hurting right about
now.
Ayup..its no wonder the country is falling apart at the seams.
Ayup. As long as folks like you are bent on worshiping deviants like Bush,
conditions will only get worse.

Ironically, while I was reading your response, I did get a call from the RNC
soliciting my support to defeat the Democrats in something to do with
Hillary running in 2008; not sure exactly what it was because I didn't let
him finish. The poor guy found out PDQ that I have no intention of
supporting a president or a political party that does not represent American
interests. I've got to give the guy credit. He tried to persuade me with
the 700 additional border patrol agents that were authorized. But I had to
burst his bubble with "not funded" and "consistently ordered to stand down
by Bush administration". I gave him my opinion on punishing people for
America's own failure to control our borders and enforce immigration law,
too, as related to the events of 9/11 and the war in the Middle East. He
was an agreeable sort of guy, and told me he was paid to gather information
on my opinions so the RNC could improve their service, whatever that meant.
I could hear him busyily typing away in the background, presumably entering
my comments into their database. I didn't stutter when I told him that in
the upcoming mid terms I intended to vote against incumbent Republicans that
have abdicated their duty in the Republican controlled Congress and White
House, and that I would not hesitate to vote a straight Democratic ticket in
2008 if the Republicans did not improve their representation of me as a
social conservative.

Thanks to looking directly at your hopeless devotion to Bush during my
conversation with him, I think I was even more vehement in expressing my
opinions to the young man than I normally would have been. Hopefully, they
will hear from enough of the disillusioned social conservative Republicans
to overcome the bug-eyed devotion of Bush-bots, and influence from neocons
and libertarians.
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Sue
Care to give it another try?
Olivia Newton John wrote a song for all you dedicated Bush-bots a long time
ago.
Guess mine is not the first heart broken,
my eyes are not the first to cry I'm not the first to know,
there's just no gettin' over you
Hello, I'm just a fool who's willing to sit around
and wait for you
But baby can't you see, there's nothin' else
for me to do I'm hopelessly devoted to you
But now there's nowhere to hide,
since you pushed my love aside I'm not in my head,
hopelessly devoted to you
Hopelessly devoted to you,
hopelessly devoted to you
My head is saying "fool, forget him",
my heart is saying "don't let go"
Hold on to the end, that's what I intend to do
I'm hopelessly devoted to you
But now there's nowhere to hide,
since you pushed my love aside I'm not in my head,
hopelessly devoted to you
Hopelessly devoted to you,
hopelessly devoted to you
So, the answer to your question is "No thanks. You're hopelessly devoted,
and as such are hopeless."
How much does your Top pay you to be the Door Prize?
How much does the RNC pay you?
Post by Gunner
Its possible you might be doing it for free. Maybe.
Cheap labor is popular among Bush-bots. Free labor by water carriers like
you is even more popular.
Post by Gunner
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-12 01:25:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-12 03:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
Gunner
2005-07-12 06:07:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:19:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
The palm tree fell on the ferret litter

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lawrence Glickman
2005-07-12 06:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:19:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
The palm tree fell on the ferret litter
Latasha sunk the nine ball in the corner pocket
Post by Gunner
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Gunner
2005-07-12 16:55:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:26:10 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:19:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
The palm tree fell on the ferret litter
Latasha sunk the nine ball in the corner pocket
Crom wiggled the moratorium


Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-12 12:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:19:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
The palm tree fell on the ferret litter
Gunner
Yeah, I know. I almost feel sorry for the Bush-bots.
It must get embarrassing for you guys to not be able to come up with even
one thing he has even worked on, let alone accomplished, on behalf of the
social conservative base he supposedly represents. He sure does a good job
of making the Middle East secure for Halliburton to build pipelines that
will service China, though, eh?
Gunner
2005-07-12 16:58:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:42:32 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:19:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
The palm tree fell on the ferret litter
Gunner
Yeah, I know. I almost feel sorry for the Bush-bots.
It must get embarrassing for you guys to not be able to come up with even
one thing he has even worked on, let alone accomplished, on behalf of the
social conservative base he supposedly represents. He sure does a good job
of making the Middle East secure for Halliburton to build pipelines that
will service China, though, eh?
Hell..if you wanted a list of Bush's accomplishments, why not simply
ask?

The Bush Administration 2001-2004


Abortion & Traditional Values

1. Banned Partial Birth Abortion — by far the most significant
roll-back of abortion on demand since Roe v. Wade.
2. Reversed Clinton's move to strike Reagan's anti-abortion Mexico
Policy.
3. By Executive Order (EO), reversed Clinton's policy of not requiring
parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act.
4. By EO, prohibited federal funds for international family planning
groups that provide abortions and related services.
5. Upheld the ban on abortions at military hospitals.
6. Made $33 million available for abstinence education programs in
2004.
7. Supports the Defense of Marriage Act — and a Constitutional
amendment saying marriage is between one man and one woman.
8. Requires states to conduct criminal background checks on
prospective foster and adoptive parents.
9. Requires districts to let students transfer out of dangerous
schools.
10. Requires schools to have a zero-tolerance policy for classroom
disruption (reintroducing discipline into classrooms).
11. Signed the Teacher Protection Act, which protects teachers from
lawsuits related to student discipline.
12. Expanded the role of faith-based and community organizations in
after-school programs.


Budget, Taxes & Economy

1. Signed two income tax cuts, one of which was the largest
dollar-value tax cut in world history.
2. Supports permanent elimination of the death tax.
3. Turned around an inherited economy that was in recession, and
deeply shocked as a result of the 9/11 attacks.
4. Is seeking legislation to amend the Constitution to give the
president line-item veto authority.
5. In process of permanently eliminating IRS marriage penalty.
6. Increased small business incentives to expand and to hire new
people.
7. Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual
investment accounts.
8. Killed Clinton's "ergonomic" rules that OSHA was about to
implement; rules would have shut down every home business in America.
9. Passed tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a
result of corporate scandals.
10. Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains.
11. Signed trade promotion authority.
12. Reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for
family farms and ranches.
13. Fight Europe's ban on importing biotech crops from the United
States.
14. Exempt food from unilateral trade sanctions and embargoes.
15. Provided $20 million to states to help people with disabilities
work from home.
16. Created a fund to encourage technologies that help the disabled.
17. Increased the annual contribution limit on Education IRA's from
$500 to $2,000 per child.
18. Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit and provide $1
billion over five years to increase the credit to $10,000.
19. Grant a complete tax exemption for prepaid or college tuition
savings plans.
20. Reduced H1B visas from a high of 195,000 per year to 66,000 per
year.


Character & Conduct as President

1. Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to
the presidency.
2. Has reintroduced the mention of God and faith into public
discourse.
3. Handled himself with enormous courage, dignity, grace,
determination, and leadership in the aftermath of the September 11,
2001 hijackings and anthrax attacks. He almost single-handedly held
this country together during those searing days:

Just three days after the attacks, in his address at the National
Cathedral, the President reassured the nation when he said: "War has
been waged against us by stealth and deceit and murder. This nation is
peaceful, but fierce when stirred to anger. This conflict was begun on
the timing and terms of others. It will end in a way, and at an hour,
of our choosing."


On Friday, September 14, 2001, President Bush visited Ground Zero.
Standing on a crushed and burned fire engine atop the smoldering pile
at Ground Zero, he put his arm around a retired firefighter who had
volunteered to help, and began speaking to the crowd. Rescue workers
shouted that they could not hear him. Someone handed him a small
American flag and bullhorn. The President spontaneously shouted: "I
can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who
knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon." The crowd
roared with cheers and chants of "USA! USA! USA!" Then he raised that
American flag and rallied a nation.


Education & Employment Training

1. Signed the No Child Left Behind Act, delivering the most dramatic
education reforms in a generation (challenging the soft bigotry of low
expectations). The very liberal California Teachers union is currently
running radio ads against the accountability provisions of this Act.
2. Announced "Jobs for the 21st Century," a comprehensive plan to
better prepare workers for jobs in the new millennium by strengthening
post-secondary education and job training, and by improving high
school education.
3. Is working to provide vouchers to low-income students in
persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private
schools. (Blocked in the Senate.)
4. Requires annual reading and math tests in grades three through
eight.
5. Requires states to participate in the National Assessment of
Education Progress, or an equivalent program, to establish a national
benchmark for academic performance.
6. Requires school-by-school accountability report cards.
7. Established a $2.4 billion fund to help states implement teacher
accountability systems.
8. Increased funding for the Troops-to-Teachers program, which
recruits former military personnel to become teachers.


Environment & Energy

1. Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.
2. Submitted a comprehensive Energy Plan (awaits Congressional
action). The plan works to develop cleaner technology, produce more
natural gas here at home, make America less dependent on foreign
sources of energy, improve national grid, etc.
3. Established a $10 million grant program to promote private
conservation initiatives.
4. Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically
engineered crops.
5. Changed parts of the Forestry Management Act to allow necessary
cleanup of the national forests in order to reduce fire danger.
6. Part of national forests cleanup: Restricted judicial challenges
(based on the Endangered Species Act and other challenges), and
removed the need for an Environmental Impact Statement before removing
fuels/logging to reduce fire danger.
7. Killed Clinton's CO2 rules that were choking off all of the
electricity surplus to California.
8. Provided matching grants for state programs that help private
landowners protect rare species.


Defense & Foreign Policy

1. Successfully executed two wars in the aftermath of 9/11/01:
Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical
regimes now live in freedom.
2. Saddam Hussein is now in prison. His two murderous sons are dead.
All but a handful of the regime's senior members were killed or
captured.
3. Leader by leader and member by member, al Maida is being hunted
down in dozens of countries around the world. Of the senior al Qaeda
leaders, operational managers, and key facilitators the U.S.
Government has been tracking, nearly two-thirds have been taken into
custody or killed. The detentions or deaths of senior al Qaeda
leaders, including Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, the mastermind of 9/11, and
Muhammad Atef, Osama bin Laden's second-in-command until his death in
late 2001, have been important in the War on Terror.
4. Disarmed Libya of its chemical, nuclear and biological WMD's
without bribes or bloodshed.
5. Continues to execute the War On Terror, getting worldwide
cooperation to track funds/terrorists. Has cut off much of the
terrorists' funding, and captured or killed many key leaders of the al
Qaeda network.
6. Initiated a comprehensive review of our military, which was
completed just prior to 9/11/01, and which accurately reported that
ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE capabilities were critical in the 21st Century.
7. Killed the old US/Soviet Union ABM Treaty that was preventing the
U.S. from deploying our ABM defenses.
8. Has been one of the strongest, if not THE strongest friend Israel
has ever hand in the U.S. presidency.
9. Part of the coalition for an Israeli/Palestinian "Roadmap to
Peace," along with Great Britain, Russia and the EU.
10. Pushed through THREE raises for our military. Increased military
pay by more than $1 billion a year.
11. Signed the LARGEST nuclear arms reduction in world history with
Russia.
12. Started withdrawing our troops from Bosnia, and has announced
withdrawal of our troops from Germany and the Korean DMZ.
13. Prohibited putting U.S. troops under U.N. command.
14. Paid back UN dues only in return for reforms and reduction of U.S.
share of the costs.
15. Earmarked at least 20 percent of the Defense procurement budget
for next-generation weaponry.
16. Increased defense research and development spending by at least
$20 billion from fiscal 2002 to 2006.
17. Ordered a comprehensive review of military weapons and strategy.
18. Ordered a review of overseas deployments.
19. Ordered renovation of military housing. The military has already
upgraded about 10 percent of its inventory and expects to modernize
76,000 additional homes this year.
20. Is working to tighten restrictions on military-technology exports.
21. Brought back our EP-3 intel plane and crew from China without any
bribes or bloodshed.


Globalization & Internationalism

1. Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities
and not become another League of Nations (in other words, showed the
UN to be completely irrelevant).
2. Killed U.S. involvement in the International Criminal Court.
3. Told the United Nations we weren't interested in their plans for
gun control (i.e., the International Ban on Small Arms Trafficking
Treaty).*
4. The only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell
that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi
regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a
threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a
decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United
Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council
resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without
consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its
founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the
answer.
5. Told the Congress and the world, "America will never seek a
permission slip to defend the security of our country."


Government Reform

1. Improved government efficiency by putting hundreds of thousands of
jobs put up for bid. This weakens public-sector unions and cuts
undeserved pay raises.
2. Initiated review of all federal agencies with the goal of
eliminating federal jobs (completed September 2003) in an effort to
reduce the size of the federal government while increasing private
sector jobs.
3. Led the most extensive reorganization the Federal bureaucracy in
over 50 years: After 9/11, condensed 20+ overlapping agencies and
their intelligence sectors into one agency, the Department of Homeland
Security.*
4. Ordered each agency to draft a five-year plan to restructure
itself, with fewer managers.
5. Converted federal service contracts to performance-based contracts
wherever possible so that the contractor has measurable performance
goals.


Health

1. Strengthen the National Health Service Corps to put more physicians
in the neediest areas, and make its scholarship funds tax-free.
2. Double the research budget of the National Institutes of Health.
3. Signed Medicare Reform, which includes:

A 10-year privatization option.


Prescription drug benefits: Prior to this reform, Medicare paid for
extended hospital stays for ulcer surgery, for example, at a cost of
about $28,000 per patient. Yet Medicare would not pay for the drugs
that eliminate the cause of most ulcers, drugs that cost about $500 a
year. Now, drug coverage under Medicare will allow seniors to replace
more expensive surgeries and hospitalizations with less expensive
prescription medicine.


More health care choices: As President Bush stated, "…when seniors
have the ability to make choices, health care plans within Medicare
will have to compete for their business by offering higher quality
service [at lower cost]. For the seniors of America, more choices and
more control will mean better health care. These are the kinds of
health care options we give to the members of Congress and federal
employees. What's good for members of Congress is also good for
seniors.


New Health Savings Accounts: Effective January 1, 2004, Americans can
set aside up to $4,500 every year, tax free, to save for medical
expenses. Depending on your tax bracket, that means you'll save
between 10 to 35 percent on any costs covered by money in your
account. Every year, the money not spent would stay in the account and
gain interest tax-free, just like an IRA. These accounts will be good
for small business owners, and employees. More businesses can focus on
covering workers for major medical problems, such as hospitalization
for an injury or illness. At the same time, employees and their
families will use these accounts to cover doctors visits, or lab
tests, or other smaller costs. Some employers will contribute to
employee health accounts. This will help more American families get
the health care they need at the price they can afford.



Homeland Security, Border Enforcement & Immigration

1. *See Government Reform above. Under President Bush's leadership,
America has made an unprecedented commitment to homeland security.
2. Has CONSTRUCTION in process on the first 10 ABM silos in Alaska so
that America will have a defense against North Korean nukes. Has
ordered national and theater ballistic missile defenses to be deployed
by 2004.
3. Announced a 9.7% increase in government-wide homeland security
funding in his FY 2005 budget, nearly tripling the FY 2001 levels
(excluding the Department of Defense and Project BioShield).
4. Before DHS was created, there were inspectors from three different
agencies of the Federal Government and Border Patrol officers
protecting our borders. Through DHS, U.S. Customs and Border
Protection (CBP) now consolidates all border activities into a single
agency to create "one face at the border." This not only better
secures the borders of the United States, but it also eliminates many
of the inefficiencies that occurred under the old system. With over
18,000 CBP inspectors and 11,000 Border Patrol agents, CBP has 29,000
uniformed officers on our borders.
5. The Border Patrol is continuing installation of monitoring devices
along the borders to detect illegal activity.
6. Launched Operation Tarmac to investigate businesses and workers in
the secure areas of domestic airports and ensure immigration law
compliance. Since 9/11, DHS has audited 3,640 businesses, examined
259,037 employee records, arrested 1,030 unauthorized workers, and
participated in the criminal indictment of 774 individuals.
7. Since September 11, 2001, the Coast Guard has conducted more than
124,000 port security patrols, 13,000 air patrols, boarded more than
92,000 vessels, interdicted over 14,000 individuals attempting to
enter the United States illegally, and created and maintained more
than 90 Maritime Security Zones.
8. Announced the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System
(SEVIS), an internet-based system that is improving America's ability
to track and monitor foreign students and exchange visitors. Over
870,000 students are registered in SEVIS. Of 285 completed field
investigations, 71 aliens were arrested.
9. This week, the US-VISIT program began to digitally collect
biometric identifiers to record the entry and exit of aliens who
travel into the U.S on a visa. Together with the standard information,
this new program will confirm compliance with visa and immigration
policies.
10. Eliminated INS bureaucratic redundancies and lack of
accountability.
11. Split the Immigration and Naturalization Service into two
agencies: one to protect the border and interior, the other to deal
with naturalization.
12. Signed the workplace verification bill to prevent hiring of
illegal aliens.
13. Established a six-month deadline for processing immigration
applications.
14. Information regarding nearly 100% of all containerized cargo is
carefully screened by DHS before it arrives in the United States.
Higher risk shipments are physically inspected for terrorist weapons
and contraband prior to being released from the port of entry.
Advanced technologies are being deployed to identify warning signs of
chemical, biological, or radiological attacks. Since September 11,
2001, hundreds of thousands of first responders across America have
been trained to recognize and respond to the effects of a WMD attack.


Judiciary & Tort Reform

1. Is urging federal liability reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits.
2. Killed the liberal ABA's unconstitutional role in vetting federal
judges. The Senate is supposed to advise and consent, not the ABA.
3. Is nominating strong, conservative judges to the judiciary.
4. Supports class action reform bill which limits lawyer fees so that
more settlement money goes to victims.


Politics

1. His leadership resulted in Republican gains in the House and
Senate, solidifying Republican control of both houses of Congress and
the presidency.
2. Signed an EO enforcing the Supreme Court's Beck decision regarding
union dues being used for political campaigns against individual's
wishes.


Second Amendment

1. Ordered Attorney General Ashcroft to formally notify the Supreme
Court that the OFFICIAL U.S. government position on the 2nd Amendment
is that it supports INDIVIDUAL rights to own firearms, and is NOT a
Leftist-imagined "collective" right.
2. Signed TWO bills into law that arm our pilots with handguns in the
cockpit.
3. Currently pushing for full immunity from lawsuits for our national
gun manufacturers.
4. *See Globalization & Internationalism.


Traditional Values, Compassion & Volunteerism

1. Endorses and promotes "The Responsibility Era." President Bush
often speaks of the necessity of personal responsibility and civic
volunteerism. He said, "In a compassionate society, people respect one
another and take responsibility for the decisions they make in life.
My hope is to change the culture from one that has said, if it feels
good, do it; if you've got a problem, blame somebody else — to one in
which every single American understands that he or she is responsible
for the decisions that you make; you're responsible for loving your
children with all your heart and all your soul; you're responsible for
being involved with the quality of the education of your children;
you're responsible for making sure the community in which you live is
safe; you're responsible for loving your neighbor, just like you would
like to be loved yourself."
2. Started the USA Freedom Corps, the most comprehensive clearinghouse
of volunteer opportunities ever offered. For the first time in
history, Americans can enter geographic information about where they
want to get involved, such as state or zip code, as well as areas of
interest ranging from education to the environment, and they can
access volunteer opportunities offered by more than 50,000
organizations across the country and around the world.
3. Established the The White House Office and the Centers for the
Faith-Based and Community Initiative — located in seven Federal
agencies. The faith-based initiative supports the essential work of
these important organizations. The goal is to make sure that
grassroots leaders can compete on an equal footing for federal
dollars, receive greater private support, and face fewer bureaucratic
barriers. Work focuses on at-risk youth, ex-offenders, the homeless
and hungry, substance abusers, those with HIV/AIDS, and
welfare-to-work families.
4. The White House released a guidebook fully describing the
Administration's belief that faith-based groups have a
Constitutionally-protected right to maintain their religious identity
through hiring — even when Federal funds are involved.
5. Issued an EO implementing the Supreme Court's Olmstead ruling,
which requires moving disabled people from institutions to
community-based facilities when possible.
6. Increased funding for low-interest loan programs to help people
with disabilities purchase devices to assist them.
7. Revised the Department of Housing and Urban Development's Section 8
rent subsidies to disabled people, permitting them to use up to a
year's worth of vouchers to finance down payments on homes. HUD has
started pilot programs in 11 states.
8. Committed US funds to purchase medicine for millions of men, women
and children now suffering with AIDS in Africa.
9. Heeding the words of our own Declaration of Independence, the
president laid out the non-negotiable demands of human dignity for all
people everywhere. On January 29, 2002, he said, "No nation owns these
aspirations, and no nation is exempt from them. We have no intention
of imposing our culture. But America will always stand firm for the
non-negotiable demands of human dignity." As stated by the President,
they are a virtual manifesto of conservative principles:

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
Lets Roll
2005-07-13 15:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:42:32 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:19:18 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Post by Gunner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:05:25 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
I can't think of a single thing myself.
We know...indeed..trust me...we know.
Gunner
That's a long list you came up with there, pardner.
The palm tree fell on the ferret litter
Gunner
Yeah, I know. I almost feel sorry for the Bush-bots.
It must get embarrassing for you guys to not be able to come up with even
one thing he has even worked on, let alone accomplished, on behalf of the
social conservative base he supposedly represents. He sure does a good job
of making the Middle East secure for Halliburton to build pipelines that
will service China, though, eh?
Hell..if you wanted a list of Bush's accomplishments, why not simply
ask?
I did.
"If you want to woo favor to Bush' side, perhaps you could begin by listing
a few things he has accomplished on behalf of his social conservative
constituents."
Did you miss it the first time? Reading comprehension problems? Preference
for obfuscation? Over-eagerness to engage in pointless ad hominem
exchanges?

Your provision of a list from a GOP semi-blog to back up your claims is
noted, and discounted as pure propaganda.
Gunner
2005-07-14 04:52:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:33:53 GMT, "Lets Roll"
Post by Lets Roll
Your provision of a list from a GOP semi-blog to back up your claims is
noted, and discounted as pure propaganda.
Please point out the lies.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

pyotr filipivich
2005-07-11 19:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by Lets Roll
So, the answer to your question is "No thanks. You're hopelessly devoted,
and as such are hopeless."
How much does your Top pay you to be the Door Prize?
Tops don't pay bottoms, it usually is the other way around.
Post by Gunner
Its possible you might be doing it for free. Maybe.
He could be paying for the privilege.
Post by Gunner
Gunner
"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown
--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine
Lets Roll
2005-07-10 03:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Grey
Post by Gunner
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:29:04 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
Post by Lawrence Glickman
Since the POTUS seems to condone illegal immigration by not stemming
the flow at the borders,
I personally understand that Bush knows that any dramatic change at
the border, or the rounding up of illegals, will likely crash the
economy..and he would rather it remain business as usual, rather than
leaving a legacy that includes the fall of the United States
Gunner
I think Bush grew up in Texas, has only met a civilized Mexicans who
worked for him and his father, and has a totally different view of them
than the average American who encounters illegal aliens. His view is that
of a rich rancher. Yeah, he may think he's doing the right thing, but I
don't think he believes he's saving oru nation's economy.
But Bush is dead on his butt when it comes to enforcing the laws, just
because he doesn't like that particular law.
He's not doing us any favors. He was a lot better than the guy he ran
against, but that doesn't say much.
http://static.highbeam.com/k/knightriddertribunenewsservice/june252003/tycoonrancherrexcaublediesat89thedallasmorningnews/
Simnacher, Joe
Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service
June 25, 2003
Byline: Joe Simnacher
Rex Cauble, the flamboyant Denton, Texas, rancher and businessman who went
to prison for his part in an international smuggling operation known as the
Cowboy Mafia, died Monday of natural causes at a hospital in Durant, Okla.
He was 89.
In January 1982, Cauble was convicted on federal charges of embezzlement,
conspiracy and racketeering. A month later, he was convicted of
participating in the smuggling of 106 tons of marijuana into Texas from
South America. Trial testimony indicated that trucks were used to move the
illegal drug from fishing trawlers on the Texas coast to four of Cauble's
ranches in North Texas.
He was sentenced to five years in prison on each of 10 counts. He completed
his prison term in September 1987 through a combination of time served and
good-conduct credits.
On Tuesday, Anna Cauble of Dallas said that her husband always maintained
his innocence. He lived out his days enjoying his horses

http://gobullistic.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=BCM&storeid=2&sid=64.68.82.44
'Cowboy Mafia' by J.R. Graham. A fascinating true story revolving around
famed cutinghorse Cutter Bill.Oilman, rancher, banker Rex Cauble, a
well-known Texas multi-millionaire, forfeited 90 million dollars in
attachable assets:ranches,banks, 'the 'Cutter Bill'' western wear stores in
Dallas and Houston in a highly controversial jury verdict out of Tyler, TX.
Muscles Foster, former all-around Rodeo cowboy, world-champion, and trainer
of six-time AQHA, NQHA world-champion cutting horse ''Cutter Bill,'' and
foreman of Rex Cauble's four-thousand acre ranches and Cowboy capos: Les
Fuller (Marlboro man); Larry Dale Washington; Dayton Bud Evans; Harry ''the
Hat'' Hannon; Ray Hawkins; and other cowboys were involved. It is the tale
of the largest smuggling operation in U.S. history and subsequently the
largest forfeiture of attachable assets ever. The Finest Story in Texas
True-Crime History. Softcover, 196 pages.
Lets Roll
2005-07-09 01:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Halcitron
http://www.globegazette.com/articles/2005/07/08/opinion/doc42cdf3adca39f556898882.txt
Doing it the right way
By TIM TYLER, Clear Lake
I enjoyed reading your article on the family from Egypt in the Globe
Gazette's July 5th paper.
It is refreshing to read about a family who has followed the proper
protocol to become American citizens. Not only did they follow the law,
they still have two children in Egypt waiting a lengthy 12-year period
for their visas in order that they also may become legal citizens. In
comparison, their counterparts are the illegals that can't wait to gain
access into America by any means possible.
The Fakuos followed the right course of action; although lengthy, its
legal. I respect these folks for their patience and ambition, and
consider them an asset to North Iowa - law-abiding and taxpaying
citizens.
I recently read an article about a group of illegal aliens in
California responsible for the spread of a strain of T.B. that doesn't
respond to normal treatment. Treatment of this T.B. is lengthy and
expensive, from $500,000 to $1.2 million per patient. With 15,000 known
cases, it's just another contributing factor to California's economic
demise, partially brought on by California's illegal alien population.
In short, to be an American citizen, you need not to be born here.
There are only a few tribes of purebred Americans left. As for those
fortunate enough to be born in Iowa, it's nice to know that there are
still immigrants willing to obey laws to become citizens of our great
state without jeapordizing the health of us living here now.
As for the illegals that have broken the law, it's up to us to inform
the proper authorities of their whereabouts. Or perhaps end up like
California.
end
By God, it is good to read something about people who actually try to
follow the laws. These are the kinds of people we should be welcoming
and embracing, not the scoff-laws and racists Bush is so enthralled
with from Mexico. These are the kinds of people who will appreciate
being in America, and will contribute to our society and the strength
of our nation. If they can manage to jump through all the hoops, and
have the patience and dedication to wind their way through all the
legal channels to get here, more power to them. I would be glad to
have them as neighbors. All the criminals sneaking across the border
will and are having just the opposite effect.
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