Discussion:
Best canned food for extended hiding?
(too old to reply)
S***@gmail.com
2006-01-02 02:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
Offbreed
2006-01-02 02:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."

Survivalism is more a lifestyle and attitude. Trying to store up because
you think just one event might happen wastes money and effort because
you will probably buy stuff you never use, and end up discarding most of
it. Consider; I've seen dozens of potential problems come and go without
anything happening. I've had more than a few things crop up in my own
life that might have been real problems, if I did not have preparations
in place.

Also, buying large quantities of stuff you normally use saves money
because you often get a discount for buying case lots, so there is a big
overlap with simple frugality. Having extra money is really good, from a
survivalist POV.
Raoul
2006-01-02 16:28:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:06:39 -0800, Offbreed
Post by Offbreed
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."
Yeah, what he said. You will get tires of the taste of almost
anything. Two perennial favorites foods here, Hormel Chili, and the
previously mentioned Dinty Moore Beef Stew have very long shelf lives,
but after eating them for a week running, you'll be sick of them.

FWIW: Pasta keeps almost forever and you can almost anything with it.
Check out http://waltonfeed.com/ and
http://www.internet-grocer.net/dehydrtd.htm

I have not ordered from them, but they seem to have what you are
looking for. Walton Feed was talked about almost daily here during the
run up to Y2K.
r***@yahoo.com
2006-01-02 18:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raoul
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:06:39 -0800, Offbreed
Post by Offbreed
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."
Yeah, what he said. You will get tires of the taste of almost
anything. Two perennial favorites foods here, Hormel Chili, and the
previously mentioned Dinty Moore Beef Stew have very long shelf lives,
but after eating them for a week running, you'll be sick of them.
FWIW: Pasta keeps almost forever and you can almost anything with it.
Check out http://waltonfeed.com/ and
http://www.internet-grocer.net/dehydrtd.htm
I have not ordered from them, but they seem to have what you are
looking for. Walton Feed was talked about almost daily here during the
run up to Y2K.
I have used internet grocer for canned butter & canned cheese. +1

Rick Bowen
TSRA - Life Member
lex talionis.
Sleeple - One who just getting
to condition white is a day trip.
Pope Secola VI
2006-01-02 20:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raoul
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:06:39 -0800, Offbreed
Post by Offbreed
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."
Yeah, what he said. You will get tires of the taste of almost
anything. Two perennial favorites foods here, Hormel Chili, and the
previously mentioned Dinty Moore Beef Stew have very long shelf lives,
but after eating them for a week running, you'll be sick of them.
FWIW: Pasta keeps almost forever and you can almost anything with it.
Check out http://waltonfeed.com/ and
http://www.internet-grocer.net/dehydrtd.htm
I have not ordered from them, but they seem to have what you are
looking for. Walton Feed was talked about almost daily here during the
run up to Y2K.
What you need to do is not only buy Chili and Denty Moore Beef Stew, but
buy a quantity of beans, (I like navy, great northern, and Lima myself),
cans of canned ham, a quantity of rice, a quantity of canned chicken
and turkey, cans of corned beef, dried vegetables mixes, dried onions,
and dried potatoes, and cans of mushrooms, cans tomato sauce, diced
tomatoes, and tomato past. Most of these cans have long self life (a
year or more) and retain their quality well. The dried stuff if kept
dry (G.I. Ammo cans are not for just storing ammo) will last for years.
--
Censorship and Gun Control are the political equivalent of binding and
gagging a victim before raping and mugging them.

Such acts are carried out by the same thugs, one with a law degree from
a state pen, the other a law degree from a university for the same sick
perverted purposes which are to remove you from your property, liberty
and dignity, and bend you to will of others.
t
2006-01-07 06:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pope Secola VI
Post by Raoul
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:06:39 -0800, Offbreed
Post by Offbreed
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."
Yeah, what he said. You will get tires of the taste of almost
anything. Two perennial favorites foods here, Hormel Chili, and the
previously mentioned Dinty Moore Beef Stew have very long shelf lives,
but after eating them for a week running, you'll be sick of them.
FWIW: Pasta keeps almost forever and you can almost anything with it.
Check out http://waltonfeed.com/ and
http://www.internet-grocer.net/dehydrtd.htm
I have not ordered from them, but they seem to have what you are
looking for. Walton Feed was talked about almost daily here during the
run up to Y2K.
What you need to do is not only buy Chili and Denty Moore Beef Stew, but
buy a quantity of beans, (I like navy, great northern, and Lima myself),
cans of canned ham, a quantity of rice, a quantity of canned chicken
and turkey, cans of corned beef, dried vegetables mixes, dried onions,
and dried potatoes, and cans of mushrooms, cans tomato sauce, diced
tomatoes, and tomato past. Most of these cans have long self life (a
year or more) and retain their quality well. The dried stuff if kept
dry (G.I. Ammo cans are not for just storing ammo) will last for years.
I concur with this. don't buy the stew, buy the components of stew.
allows the opportunity to "mix it up" a bit.

zadoc
2006-01-02 16:54:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:06:39 -0800, Offbreed
Post by Offbreed
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."
Survivalism is more a lifestyle and attitude. Trying to store up because
you think just one event might happen wastes money and effort because
you will probably buy stuff you never use, and end up discarding most of
it. Consider; I've seen dozens of potential problems come and go without
anything happening. I've had more than a few things crop up in my own
life that might have been real problems, if I did not have preparations
in place.
Also, buying large quantities of stuff you normally use saves money
because you often get a discount for buying case lots, so there is a big
overlap with simple frugality.
I have always been a great believer in buying by the case. In most
cities here there are wholesale outfits that supply small shops,
caterers etc. Most will sell to the general public if you buy in
reasonable amounts and pay cash.

In smaller towns with no wholesale outlet, am told that it can pay to
become friendly with the local supermarket manager. If you are buying
in case lots, he doesn't have to pay his staff to put the products out
on the shelf, price them, pay checkout staff to deal with them.

Selling you products by the case eliminates the losses due to
shoplifting, stock breakage, etc. Again, though, I would think it
worthwhile to buy in a large enough quantity to make it worth his
while.

Why should he be willing to give a buyer any discounts at all?
...Well, if he doesn't, someone else will, or the buyer will simply
drive to the nearest wholesale outlet for the bulk of his shopping.

However, there is one thing to keep in mind: Large supermarket chains
buy in huge quantities, so they can pay less for their products than a
supermarket owner or even a small wholesaler.

Supermarkets often offer what are called "loss leaders" just to entice
people into the store. They may actually sell products below cost, as
they know that if someone comes in for the specials, they will often
buy other items.

Some additional points:

-- Why restrict yourself to canned goods? Why not basic foods such as
rice, beans, pasta, sugar, etc? In large supermarkets, can buy large
packs much cheaper than can buy small packs. Wander around your local
supermarket and check on the cost of rice in 20 kg [44 pound] bags
rather than 500 gram [1.1 pound] bags. Takes more time to prepare,
but its cheap and you won't go hungry if the pandemic lasts longer
than you think.

-- Despite "best before" dates on canned goods, in practice most will
last far longer and the average person wouldn't notice any taste
difference.
Supermarkets, here at least, often heavily discount canned goods as
the "best before" date approaches or even cheaper when it has passed.
Don't be afraid to buy them if the cans don't appear to be blown.

-- Avoid buying dented cans, as some products such as canned tomatoes
rely on a protective coating on the inside of the can. A dent will
disturb this allowing the acids from the tomato to attack the can.
[Which is another good reason to buy by the case.]

-- If eating only canned goods, would take vitamin supplements, or at
least vitamin "C" as the body needs it and cannot store it.

-- If there was a flu pandemic on, I would be eating few if any fresh
produce. Reason: The flu virus can be transmitted on the skin of the
hands, and if someone with the flu handles the produce before the
store wraps it for sale, it is still risky.
I would consider unwrapped produce as highly risky. If you wonder
why, stand around the fresh fruit and vegetable section of a
supermarket for an hour and note how many customers paw through the
produce on sale.
If there was a pandemic one would think that supermarkets would
stop selling unwrapped fruit and vegetables, but I wouldn't count on
them doing so.
Post by Offbreed
Having extra money is really good, from a
survivalist POV.
Would generally agree with this, although it does depend a bit on what
sort of survival situation one envisages. If staying at home to avoid
contact with the flu virus, as long as have enough money or credit to
pay rent, essential services, etc. then are probably O.K.

If you don't have to go out shopping at all the food is worth more
than money in the bank. On the other hand, if the survival threat
requires you to flee your home, then you won't be able to carry all
your food supplies, and service stations may not be accepting credit
cards. Not that you would want to have to stop for gas [petrol] in
any case. Leave that game for people who like to drive around with
nearly empty tanks.:-)

Cheers,

***@invalid.com.au
t
2006-01-07 06:31:56 UTC
Permalink
the only issue i take is the "bulk" issue. be careful here. being of
Scottish descent, i actually calculate prices on EVERYTHING i buy. i
have actually found some things to be cheaper per unit in the smaller
sizes than the large, so do a reasonable comparison first. compare
price per gram/ounce/pound first.

sometimes you pay for the convenience of one large package v. two
smaller ones
Post by zadoc
-- Why restrict yourself to canned goods? Why not basic foods such as
rice, beans, pasta, sugar, etc? In large supermarkets, can buy large
packs much cheaper than can buy small packs. Wander around your local
supermarket and check on the cost of rice in 20 kg [44 pound] bags
rather than 500 gram [1.1 pound] bags. Takes more time to prepare,
but its cheap and you won't go hungry if the pandemic lasts longer
than you think.
Robert Sturgeon
2006-01-02 17:41:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:06:39 -0800, Offbreed
Post by Offbreed
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
"Store what you eat, eat what you store."
That makes sense in the abstract, but I'll never actually do
it. Imagine - no more fresh vegetables, no more fresh meat,
no more fresh milk, no more restaurant food. Just a
thoroughly boring diet of canned food, canned milk, Uncle
Ben's Rice, etc., etc....
Post by Offbreed
Survivalism is more a lifestyle and attitude. Trying to store up because
you think just one event might happen wastes money and effort because
you will probably buy stuff you never use, and end up discarding most of
it.
I consider stored food to be in the same category as
insurance -- I have it, but I hope I'll never have to use
it. Yes, it eventually gets tossed -- wasted, just like the
insurance premiums on insurance benefits I don't end up
needing. Oh sure, I eat the occasional can of beans or soup
or tuna. But I would never consider actually living on it.
It is SURVIVAL food, not day-to-day food.
Post by Offbreed
Consider; I've seen dozens of potential problems come and go without
anything happening. I've had more than a few things crop up in my own
life that might have been real problems, if I did not have preparations
in place.
Also, buying large quantities of stuff you normally use saves money
because you often get a discount for buying case lots, so there is a big
overlap with simple frugality. Having extra money is really good, from a
survivalist POV.
Well, if you want to live like that, more power to you.
It's just not for me.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
e***@netpath.net
2006-01-02 03:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Dinty Moore Beef Stew. That stuff holds up great, tastes good, is
filling and nutritious - and will keep you warm in winter. Easy
preparation. (I had a little of it two years ago kept from Y2K during
a disastrous power outage here.)

No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
Gunner Asch
2006-01-02 09:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
Tastey food.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
pyotr filipivich
2006-01-03 21:48:11 UTC
Permalink
You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
Post by Gunner Asch
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
Tastey food.
And spices. Even Steak seven days a week gets a bit tiresome.
--
pyotr filipivich
My suggestion for rapists is "shoot, shovel and shut up."
Use a backhoe. Because as any rapist's friends and family will tell you
"deep down, they're good people."
Leah
2006-01-04 14:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi everyone,

I'm de-lurking to comment. I'm a friend of Xena, who used to post
here until her life turned to cr*p, and unfortunately, just when
things were turning around for her, she was killed in an auto
accident, no booze or drugs or other impairments on either side, just
a really tragic accident. I know she'd want you to know what
happened, in case any of you here remember her. She's the one who
turned me on to survivalism/preparedness with her worries about Y2K,
as I heard about it plenty since we are in the same line of work, and
after seeing how her pantry and other preps worked for her, I started
doing it myself, even after seeing Y2K turn out to be nothing. Feels
strange and unfair to me that after all that work she did getting
ready, there was nothing she or anyone else could do about that
accident!
Post by S***@gmail.com
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
We didn't get them from Costco, but I keep Chef Boyardee and Banquet
meals in a box on hand. They come with canned meat/sauce/whatever and
a dried bread mix in them to make a complete meal you could heat in or
on a wood stove, or in a solar oven for that matter if the power or
gas goes out. For instance, I've got several boxes of "cheesy burger
macaroni" which makes a thick pie like crust with macaroni and beef
with cheese on top. They also make other Italian type dishes, chicken
and biscuits, and chili with cornbread varieties. You'll find them
next to the boxed really cheap mac and cheese or Hamburger Helper. I
like to make stuff like this from scratch, chicken and soup mixed with
veggies and with biscuits on top, but for a quicker meal, the boxed
stuff helps out. I also keep canned and vacuum packed meats on hand;
beef is now available in vaccum packs in the canned meat aisle, so we
added some of that to the canned chicken and tuna we like.

From Costco, we got a few packs of ravioli with beef (for that hard to
find/catch protein), soups with meat, chili with meat, and of course
staples like beans, rice, flour, sugar, salt, baking powder, bulk
dried gravy (in the spice section), other spices like dried onion,
garlic, parsley, etc., dried milk, coffee, canned chicken and tuna,
and you can't forget bulk vitamins for nutritional support. We picked
up bulk vitamin C which helps with constipation (if you get it, try
1000-2000 mg of C for several days to see if that gets things going)
in addition to boosting your immune system, multivitamins (get them
without iron for the men), and calcium.

We also try and keep at least a month's supply of everything else on
hand for a really comfortable month, especially with the flu threat.
We probably could go longer than that month, but if the avian flu
comes here, we feel we are as ready as we'll ever be.

One thing I will change, however, is keeping more medications on hand.
Whatever medications you have to help while suffering from the flu,
double or triple that is probably more like what you'll need. We
caught the regular flu, and along with my running nose turning into a
sinus infection and trying to get down into my chest, we've been going
through the decongestant and cough drops faster than I'd like. I got
antibiotics from overseas since I get sinus infections about once a
year, so at least I can battle the infection myself (since I'm trained
to recognize the diff between regular viral flu and a bacterial
infection--bacterial sinus infection means yellow and/or green
drainage with or without some blood, but plain blood alone just means
you've been sneezing a lot from the viral flu so antibiotics for a
bloody discharge without discoloration will do you no good) without
waiting in the LONG lines in the local emergency rooms. One hospital
here closed down for hours this week because they had too many people
coming in for the flu and not enough beds to take the worst cases, so
just imagine what an avian flu outbreak would be like if the regular
flu can shut down one really large hospital half a day.

Makes me glad we invested in med preps because I am miserable enough
with this regular flu that the idea of going somewhere to wait for
hours to get some overpaid doctor to agree with me about having a
secondary bacterial infection would be insult on top of injury.

I'd also recommend santizing wipes, got a box of 100 from Smart N
Final for about $4 USD. Keep them with you if you have to go out in
public, wipe down that shopping cart handle, your table if you go out
to eat, and of course your hands after contact if you think someone
around you is contageous and you might be exposed. They are less
bulky and cost less than the alcohol gel you find around town, and you
can shove a few packets in your pocket or day bag without it looking
too bulky or weighting too much. We have dust/pollen masks on hand
for whatever, but if the flu strikes, we can use those to help cut the
risk of transmission to us further, though we have decided that if the
bird flu strikes locally, we'll just hole up here at home and ride it
out.

Hope it helps.

Leah
Offbreed
2006-01-04 15:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leah
Hi everyone,
I'm de-lurking to comment. I'm a friend of Xena, who used to post
here until her life turned to cr*p, and unfortunately, just when
things were turning around for her, she was killed in an auto
accident,
Thanks for passing word. Some of us had wondered where she got off to.
Stormin Mormon
2006-01-05 15:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Anyone stop to figure it out? We prepare for EMP, The Wookie, and then get
killed by a motorist in a car.

What are the real risks?
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.
Post by Leah
Hi everyone,
I'm de-lurking to comment. I'm a friend of Xena, who used to post
here until her life turned to cr*p, and unfortunately, just when
things were turning around for her, she was killed in an auto
accident,
Thanks for passing word. Some of us had wondered where she got off to.
Lawrence Glickman
2006-01-05 15:37:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:34:09 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
Post by Stormin Mormon
Anyone stop to figure it out? We prepare for EMP, The Wookie, and then get
killed by a motorist in a car.
What are the real risks?
Whatever they are, the real risks go up exponentially when you aren't
paying attention!

Lg
Post by Stormin Mormon
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.
Post by Leah
Hi everyone,
I'm de-lurking to comment. I'm a friend of Xena, who used to post
here until her life turned to cr*p, and unfortunately, just when
things were turning around for her, she was killed in an auto
accident,
Thanks for passing word. Some of us had wondered where she got off to.
zadoc
2006-01-05 16:58:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:34:09 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
Post by Stormin Mormon
Anyone stop to figure it out? We prepare for EMP, The Wookie, and then get
killed by a motorist in a car.
What are the real risks?
One of the major possibilities is a H5N1 flu pandemic, yet most
posters on this group don't seem very interested in discussing it.

Cheers,
***@invalid.com.au
LiRM
2006-01-05 18:03:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:34:09 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
Post by Stormin Mormon
Anyone stop to figure it out? We prepare for EMP, The Wookie, and then get
killed by a motorist in a car.
What are the real risks?
Some time ago, when I started to put together my collection of
documents I'd find related to survivalism, I came across this one.
Here is a link to it from the Google archives:

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.survivalism/browse_thread/thread/eefd202efcaeb73d/cc0105ce1f9453c0?lnk=st&q=%22In+the+Beginning%2C+the+Threat+Analysis%22+group%3Amisc.survivalism&rnum=1&hl=en#cc0105ce1f9453c0

or

http://tinyurl.com/bahp4

I'm not sure if there is an updated version out there, but this is the
version I saved and I found it quite adequate.

Good topic. Great for the new people. And better still for those of
us who think we know something :)

Anyway, this was authored by Richard A. De Castro. IMO, it's an
excellent article on the topic. One note I can make is that the book
he refers to at the end of the article by James Wesley, Rawles was
published under the title "Patriots" and Rawles requested that the
shareware version stopped being distributed on the Net and people
instead buy his published book. I bought the original "TEOTWAWKI" and
later, Patriots when it came out, both signed by the author (I'm a
scaled down version of an actual book collector).

Here's a current link to Rawles's home page and the book:

http://www.rawles.to/patriots.htm

=====================================

Survival FAQ - In the Beginning, the Threat Analysis


(c) 1996 by Richard A. De Castro


*Non-commercial use permitted so long as the entire work, with
attribution, is used, and it's not used or associated in any way with
any group or groups with racist or criminal intent.*


Welcome to misc.survivalism and this FAQ. This FAQ is designed to
help people new to the concept of survivalism formulate some plans
that will lead them to gaining the experience, knowledge and materials
they will need to be safe and secure in their lives. Other FAQ's will
address some of the philosophical issues involved, and specific fields
of study (food preservation, etc.) that might be of interest.
Whenever possible, we will provide pointers to the FAQ's of other
newsgroups - if we tried to reinvent every wheel, we'd never get
anywhere.


Others can tell you why you want to survive, and if it's a good or bad
idea. I think that survival is better than any other alternative, and
so I will do everything in my power to maximize the chances of my
family and myself to survive. I presume that you have some serious
interest in the subject, or you wouldn't be reading this.


This FAQ is specifically designed to help you develop your own
specific threat analysis. This threat analysis will describe for you
the things that you are most concerned about happening to you.
Threats are different to each person or group, and they change with
time, the environment and your level of preparedness. For example, in
the 1970's I was particularly concerned with three main threats to my
safety, earthquakes (I live in southern California), global nuclear
war and economic collapse (remember the sort of inflation we had back
then?). Since then, my circumstances have changed so that I'm better
prepared for an economic disaster (although by no means completely
ready, yet), I personally feel that global nuclear war is not a high
threat, (although attack by a terrorist with a nuclear device is
a concern), and I still worry about earthquakes (still in So. Cal).
Your threats and concerns will be different than mine, and personal
threat analysis will of course be different. You might live in areas
that don't have too many earthquakes, but are subject to hurricanes,
or severe winter snows, or something else. You may be better prepared
for the future than I am. And, you may be willing or unwilling to
take some of the steps that I am willing or unwilling to take -
personal defense, for example.


DISCLAIMER: Use at your own risk. Disagree with me civilly, or don't
disagree with me at all - I enjoy a good discussion, but I don't get
paid enough to get upset. Finally, much of what follows is based very
closely on a book by Bruce Clayton, Ph.D. called _Life_After_Doomsday.
The book is very good, excellent even, within it's limits - it was
written around 1980, where the nuclear threat was much more
significant than it is now, and the structure of the US military has
changed so that some of his maps and information about various
military installations has changed. Also, the threat then was from the
Soviet Union, I doubt that the Russian Republics are as much of a
threat today. Clayton offers explanations on why he makes certain
choices, and they're excellent - just change the assumptions to fit
the current facts. I tried to write to both Clayton and his
publisher, asking for permission to use his material, both letters
were returned undeliverable. [Note: I've contacted Dr. Clayton and
am discussing the possibility of encorporating more of his book into
this faq. - RDeC].


The first step:


This analysis will be a long-term process - It's best to write it
down! Get a notepad and a pencil or two, probably an eraser will be
handy as well. This may take several weeks, altogether, for the
preliminary steps. Once you have them, you'll be modifying your lists
often.
Who are you planning for? Are you single, married, with kids,
expecting kids, extended family, pets, friends, neighbors? You first
need to define the universe of people you're worried about. What sort
of problems does that universe present? Does someone have chronic
health needs? Is there an infant that requires diapers and formula?
List the people on a piece of paper, then list the special needs they
have.
Next, on a separate sheet of paper, list all the things that concern
you. Don't worry about putting them in any order, and don't worry
about their relative likelihood - just write them all down.
Some things to think about:


* Natural Disasters:
* Weather
* Floods
* Drought
* Winter Storms
* Hurricanes
* Tornadoes
* Heat
* Climate changes
* New diseases (new forms of diseases)
* Wildfire
* Avalanche
* Mud slides *
* Earthquakes
* Volcanic activity
* Tidal Surges (Tidal Waves, Tsunamis)


Man-made Disasters:
* Political Disasters
* Riot
* Foreign invasion of the US
* Marshal law
* Totalitarian government
* Environmental Disasters
* Hazardous Materials spills
* Nuclear material or plant accidents
* Dam failures
* Water / Air pollution


Economic Disasters:
* Depression
* Inflation
* Loss of your job / income / home


War
* All out nuclear
* Limited nuclear
* Terrorist nuclear
* Chemical (see also Haz Mat)
* Biological (see new diseases)


Terrorist Attack
* Kidnapping
* Hijacking
* Attacks on the infrastructure (water, electricity)
* Hostage taking
* Sabotage (see nuclear accidents, Haz mat)
* see also WAR


Others:
* House damage or destroyed due to fire or accident
* Family subjected to crime
* Robbery
* Burglary
* Car jacking
* Kidnapping


Once you have all the possible threats written down (don't be worried
if you come up with new threats as you work on it, it's a dynamic
process). Write down what that threat will mean to you and your
lifestyle - what will you have or not have, what will you be able to
do or not be able to do, what will you need (even if you already have
it). Finally, rank them in the order that YOU perceive them to be a
threat. For example, if earthquakes are your most serious threat, put
them as number 1. You may have things that you think are equally
threatening - in that case, rank them both at a number - this isn't
supposed to be hard.
Do you see why having a notebook (or better yet, a computer) to do
this with is handy? Don't get frustrated if you have a couple of
false starts, deciding part way through a list to completely start
over. This is a good indication that your knowledge and awareness is
expanding, and the knowledge and experience that you gain will serve
you well. I've been personally studying the entire survivalism field
pretty consistently for more than 20 years, and I still learn new
things, and still add to my list of things to learn, skills to master
and materials to buy.
You should now have a prioritized list of the hazards that you think
are significant. This allows you to devote your time, money and
energy resources to the most important things first. With this list,
you can start deciding what sorts of preparation you need to do to
meet the threat. For example, lets say that hurricanes are your most
significant concern (presumably you live in hurricane land).
Hurricanes can cause power outages, block roads, flood or damage
homes, cause temporary food shortages, create a big mess, etc. So,
what do you need to survive?
What now?
All survival and survivalist preparation can be broken down into
several broad categories, knowledge, skills, experience, and
materials. So, list the things that you need in each area for the
threat - for knowledge, you need to know how to prepare, the skills
you need are in preparation for hurricanes (boarding / taping windows,
first aid, home repairs), you get experience by practicing the skills,
and the materials you need are things like plywood, masking tape,
water storage containers, food that doesn't require refrigeration,
etc. Do this for each threat area.
The kinds of skills and materials you need can be very widespread.
Depending on the threat you're planning for, you might want the
ability to recreate civilization as we know it. This is almost
certainly impossible for one person, or even one family - there are
too many skills needed, and too many kinds of specialty equipment and
materials, for one person to be competent at them all. This is why
survival groups or small communities are almost always preferable.
You don't always need a veterinarian, for instance, but when you do
need one, a plumber won't do.
As you complete this list, you'll find that certain things are needed
for many different threats. First aid skills and materials are always
useful, you may find that they show up for every category. Stored
food and water might be needed for many things as well, while having
and operating a chainsaw might only be needed for a few.


You now have a roadmap of the skills and materials, that you need to
become self-reliant. The longer you pursue the field, the more
information that you'll decide you'll need. For example, you might
decide that you need to be proficient in emergency first aid, food
preservation (drying, smoking, canning, pickling) , animal husbandry,
engine mechanic, construction (design and building), fire fighting,
sailing, fishing, computer programming, ham radios, weaving cloth,
sewing, tanning leathers, bee keeping, accounting, trading, cabinet
making, farming, dentistry, childbirth, small military unit tactics,
advanced emergency medical treatment, improvised explosives, hunting,
trapping, welding, metal working, power production and generation,
telephone systems, and almost anything else you can think of.


Where to get trained: In addition to the various courses that are from
time to time discussed on the internet, your local community probably
offers a wide variety of courses that will help you in your quest.


Check with your local community college, high school adult program,
community center, or other educational programs. Just don't expect to
see a category called "Survivalist Training". Your local fire
department probably offers training in CPR and first aid, and if you
can
join, they'll offer you more and better training. The local law
enforcement agency may offer training as well as your county's civil
defense / emergency preparedness office.


Where to get experience: The best way to learn some skills is to do
it. This can be difficult, since your plans may be based on skills you
simply can't even start learning, yet. For example, learning to grow
food is not hard, but it does require some dirt and space. You may
want to learn how to fix small engines, but can't take your car out of
service. There are lots of other examples.


Generally, you can offer your services as a volunteer to any one of a
number of organizations. For example, if you're not sure how to cook
for large groups of people, volunteer at a food bank, meals-on-wheels,
or church group, and learn! If you want to learn how to build houses
(and fix them, and how to use tools), organizations like Habitat for
Humanity are available, just looking for helpers. You'll learn some
skills, but more importantly, meet people who can show you more tips
and tricks. Organizations like the American Red Cross usually need
disaster workers, first aid instructors, etc., and they'll train you.


Also, it may not be practical to study your specific area of interest,
but can learn something that's closely related. If you don't have a
field to farm, how about a back yard you can start growing a few
vegetables in? If you're an apartment dweller, and don't have a yard
at all, you can grow some vegetables, or even just flowers, in window
boxes. You probably can't provide all your food needs from a window
box (unless it's a huge window), but you can start finding out what
it's like, what works, and what doesn't.


Commercial Schools. In general, survivalist and survival oriented
commercial schools are an iffy proposition. There's no standards for
the course content, and some instructors seem to think (and worse,
teach) that they're way is the only one true way to do something.
Schools like this are dangerous, and should be avoided. Survival, and
Survivalism, is the art of the possible - there are lots of ways to
build a shelter, depending on what you have available, the time
available, and the weather you need to be sheltered from, no one style
is ideal. No one idea is right in the entire spectrum of knowledge
and learning, and it's up to the student to be aware of the different
styles and schools of thought. Some schools are also quite expensive,
and the worth is left to the student to determine.


Areas that schools can be a great benefit in include shooting and
firearms. The more famous schools, like Thunder Ranch in Texas, and
Gunsite in Arizona, have taught thousands of people how to be the most
proficient with firearms they can be. They offer a graduated series
of classes to take a student from little or no experience to being
phenomenally quick and accurate with all sorts of firearms, but these
schools are not quick or cheap.


Materials. It's almost impossible to completely develop a list
of everything that you might need to survive. Even the US Military,
which has a great deal of experience in people living in strange
places under less than ideal circumstances, finds that they neglect
something or other, and things they thought were important weren't.
It's possible to have a pretty good idea of what you need, though,
with a little diligence and effort.


Keep track of everything you buy for a year, including food,
toiletries, cleaning supplies, clothes, etc. Don't get too worried
about doing it for a year, although you should track it for a full
year - peoples appetites change over a year. You can start preparing
with one quarter's list, you just might be modifying it. It's more
important to get started than it is to wait hoping to get it all
perfect in one attempt, and find that time has run out. After a
period of time, you'll have a good idea of what it takes to live and
support yourself for that period. You can begin stockpiling based on
that list, after you take into account the changes that are almost a
sure thing - if you have small kids, they'll grow up and eat more, for
example.


Inventory what's on the shelf. Don't worry too much about things that
have been there for a long time. In general, if you don't have to
replace things within a year they aren't a significant part of your
diet, and you don't need to store them (except perhaps as a barter
item).


Practice with new things. Buy some flour, and practice making
breads and things from scratch. Buy some whole grains, and a grinder,
and make your own flour. It's critically important that you know how
to use these sorts of foods if you're going to make them a part of
your survival plans, especially for children.


Getting the stuff - Develop a rotation program - whatever you
get, when you put it in storage, date it using a waterproof pen or
pencil, then use the oldest first. This will keep the freshest for
emergencies.
Food - for fresh and canned, get one extra every time you buy
something. This includes common toiletries such as soap, toothpaste
(and tooth brushes), etc. Clothing. First of all, save old things
that might be a little too ragged for regular use. Buy sturdy
clothes. Learn to patch things, and store the required materials
(spare buttons, needles, thread, scissors, etc.) You might even want
to learn to knit, and store the required materials. Books: The most
comprehensive listing of books that might be useful for survival and
survivalists is posted once or twice a month on the internet, in the
misc.survivalism newsgroup. It has hundreds of both non-fiction
educational books, and fictional motivational books. Barter: You may
think that by having lots of stuff you'll be able to barter for
everything else that you need.


Tools: Your roadmap will list many items that are best considered
tools. Things that you might not normally need, such as hand tools,
first aid and medical equipment, rope, farming implements (shovels,
rakes, etc.), kerosene or white gas lanterns, chain saws, power tools,
repair materials, etc. You can start determining what you need, and
putting these items on your list, with expected quantities. Have a
section to keep track of both the things you need, and the things that
you have and where they are - you'll be surprised at how easy it is to
forget that you've already got something, and how hard it is to find
when you need it. This list is by no means complete or comprehensive,
but it does give an idea of some things that you may want to start
stockpiling.


Finances: Most likely, whatever you think your threat(s) will be,
your financial condition will be a significant factor. I personally
feel that an economic disaster (including a nationwide depression, and
possibly hyperinflation) is a strong possibility, and if you agree you
should do whatever you can do prepare for it. With societies current
"enjoy now, pay later" mentality, and the absolute fact that almost
nobody in the US has any significant liquid savings (your home doesn't
count, since in an economic disaster you wouldn't be able to sell it
for your mortgage cost), we are all in trouble. Combine that with the
impending crash of Social Security (the current 1996 average monthly
payment for social security is around $900) and people not having any
long term savings for retirement, we're in a dangerous position.


In the near term, do everything you can to remove any short-term
(credit card, auto loan, home-equity loan) debt that you have. This
doesn't mean getting a "bill consolidation" loan, it means cutting up
your credit cards, getting a second job for you and your spouse, and
paying the debt off. Once you have no regular expenses except for
telephone and utilities and perhaps your mortgage, you're in a better
position to survive than most everyone in the US.


Are there times for short-term credit? Certainly, but not as a way of
life. I have to laugh (or cry) when I see people at the grocery
store, paying with their credit cards. It's OK so long as they pay
the bill off completely each month, but how many people do that? How
many people do you know that are just increasing their credit card
debt, and so long as they continue to pay the minimum every month, the
credit card companies will keep increasing their limits and giving
them new cards.


I personally never buy any product on my credit card if it won't
be around when the bill arrives, if I can. I pay cash for gasoline and
restaurant meals, and use my checking account for almost everything
else except airline tickets, hotels, and renting cars. It's one way I
use to "sanity check" a purchase. It also means that I have large
unused balances on my credit cards, available for some emergency that
might require me to break my rules. Save all the cash you can, do
without things that aren't necessary for your life. Instead of buying
a new car, maintain the one you have. Invest your money in your
future - by getting the things you'll need for it, and by reducing
your dependence on forces and factors that you have no control over.


In the longer term, in addition to your home, you might want to
start collecting hard assets, including pre-1964 "junk" silver coins.
They're called junk silver since they have no collectors value, but
are (almost) pure silver. You might still occasionally see silver
coins in circulation (if you're incredibly lucky), if you do then snap
them up. Otherwise, you might start buying a few, dimes and quarters,
as you're able to. But, don't pay a huge premium over the bullion
price. Get a book on precious metals investing to find out more.
Once you have some silver, you might want to hedge your bets buy
getting some gold. Again, don't pay a huge premium over the bullion
price, and be very careful of what you're doing. Gold is too
concentrated a form of wealth to be very useful in an economic crisis
- silver is probably better.


Major investments: Your planning may lead you to decide that you need
to make some very serious investments. You may decide that your
security requires you to move from the city you live in, and find a
retreat. You may decide that you need to buy a new or different
vehicle, or some items that have little use in your life other than
survivalism. If your personal threat assessment and roadmap leads you
to this conclusion, be careful. You don't want to get yourself into
financial difficulties while you're trying to prepare yourself for
survival. Other than that, the resources listed in the
misc.survivalism books.list are much better able to describe the
things to look for, and watch out for.


Other sources of information:


Books: In addition to Life After Doomsday, which is a good primer
on most everything, I maintain two lists - one is a summary of well
over one hundred books on all topics relating to survivalism, and
another is a list of several hundred mail order sources of equipment.
These are posted every two weeks (approximately) to misc.survivalism.


Misc.survivalism is also a good place to ask questions, with a wide
variety of people to provide answers. This is both good and bad,
sometimes the people are not as competent as others, and may steer you
the wrong way. But, there will usually be others to correct the
misstatements.


One of the more interesting ways of learning about some of the
threat, and preparation, that's available is the cyber-book The Gray
Nineties, by Jim Rawles. This book is currently available on the
internet from http://www.teleport.com/~ammon/gn/cover.htm.
While I don't necessarily agree with all of Jim's assumptions and
plans, he has written a good story about the plans and lives of
several people after an economic collapse in the US.
h***@nospam.com
2006-01-05 19:10:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:34:09 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
Post by Stormin Mormon
Anyone stop to figure it out? We prepare for EMP, The Wookie, and then get
killed by a motorist in a car.
What are the real risks?
Go to cdc.gov and look up mortality statistics.

Hal
Gunner
2006-01-04 17:44:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 07:34:38 -0700, Leah
Post by Leah
I'm de-lurking to comment. I'm a friend of Xena, who used to post
here until her life turned to cr*p, and unfortunately, just when
things were turning around for her, she was killed in an auto
accident, no booze or drugs or other impairments on either side, just
a really tragic accident
Im really and truely sorry to hear this. I rather liked her and read
her posts regularly.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
Gunner
2006-01-04 18:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 07:34:38 -0700, Leah
Post by Leah
I'm de-lurking to comment. I'm a friend of Xena, who used to post
here until her life turned to cr*p, and unfortunately, just when
things were turning around for her, she was killed in an auto
accident, no booze or drugs or other impairments on either side, just
a really tragic accident
Im really and truely sorry to hear this. I rather liked her and read
her posts regularly.
Gunner
II forgot to ask..how is her husband doing? They seemed pretty tight.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
Leah
2006-01-04 20:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
II forgot to ask..how is her husband doing? They seemed pretty tight.
He was devastated by her loss, as the only comfort he had about it was
that it was quick, but remaining family and friends rallied around
him, and he's adjusting as best he can.

Leah
Gunner
2006-01-05 02:00:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:07:45 -0700, Leah
Post by Leah
Post by Gunner
II forgot to ask..how is her husband doing? They seemed pretty tight.
He was devastated by her loss, as the only comfort he had about it was
that it was quick, but remaining family and friends rallied around
him, and he's adjusting as best he can.
Leah
I dont think Im out of line here, when I express the respects and
sadness of the members of MS, and please point this out to the
husband. Several hundred people were touched by her posts and enjoyed
them and her insights.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
TDKozan
2006-01-05 04:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:07:45 -0700, Leah
Post by Leah
Post by Gunner
II forgot to ask..how is her husband doing? They seemed pretty tight.
He was devastated by her loss, as the only comfort he had about it was
that it was quick, but remaining family and friends rallied around
him, and he's adjusting as best he can.
Leah
I dont think Im out of line here, when I express the respects and
sadness of the members of MS, and please point this out to the
husband. Several hundred people were touched by her posts and enjoyed
them and her insights.
Gunner
Amen.

TK
--
Cogito ergo bibo
r***@yahoo.com
2006-01-05 05:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:07:45 -0700, Leah
Post by Leah
Post by Gunner
II forgot to ask..how is her husband doing? They seemed pretty tight.
He was devastated by her loss, as the only comfort he had about it was
that it was quick, but remaining family and friends rallied around
him, and he's adjusting as best he can.
Leah
I dont think Im out of line here, when I express the respects and
sadness of the members of MS, and please point this out to the
husband. Several hundred people were touched by her posts and enjoyed
them and her insights.
Gunner
Amen.
TK
Same here. Shit.

Rick Bowen
TSRA - Life Member
lex talionis.
Sleeple - One who just getting
to condition white is a day trip.
tg
2006-01-02 19:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@gmail.com
Hi
I want to buy a bunch of canned food from Costco so I can hide out if
the flu strikes. What is the best kind of food for this purpose?
baked beans.
about 25 ton of them.

lol
DBM
2006-01-06 05:45:51 UTC
Permalink
My two cents, for what it's worth...

First, read the 'Food Storage FAQ' by Alan T Hagan
http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/

Especially the section that explains 'Best Used By', 'Use By' dates
http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/va.html

Second, ask yourself...

0. What situations might I need a food supply for?
Food preps suit a wide range of disasters, not just 'self-quarantine' due to
a Pandemic. Just look at what happened in New Orleans...

Note - The US Government recommends its citizens keep a '3-day' supply on
hand. Considering all of the other stuff recommended for a '3-day' or
'72-hour' pack, it appears that the '3-day' limit is based off of the
logistics of 'evacuating' by foot if need be, and CARRYING the pack with
you. The point being, that if the '3-day' pack contains ALL of the water
required for one person for 3 days, then at 4 litres (about 1 US gallon)
each day, the water alone will weigh 12 kilos or about 26.5 pounds. The
Swiss Government however, recommends a 2-week supply of food, in what
appears to be a 'shelter in place' mindset...

http://www.bwl.admin.ch/english/pdf/Household.pdf

"...There should be a fourteen days supply for each person. And the
household reserve should contain enough food which can be eaten without
being cooked to manage for at least 2 days in case there is a prolonged
interruption in the electricity or gas supply..."

Which brings us to the question...

1. How long will you need to 'provide' for yourself?
A Flu Pandemic may come in 'waves' over a number of years. This might mean
having to 'self-quarantine' for each Flu season (5 to 6 months each year)
over a number of years. Then again, Pandemic Flu may arrive early via
international travellers, sparking a crisis outside of the local 'Flu
season' (before or after). A Flu Pandemic could cause chaos to the economy,
and severely disrupt the supply of local and imported goods (especially
'local' goods that depend on imported items) for a number of years - which
means you may not be able to get what you want, even when the Pandemic is
'over'. In any case, it would be prudent to have AT LEAST 6 MONTHS worth of
food (and water, clothing, fuel, batteries, hygiene supplies, medicine, etc)
stored away, and BETTER to have enough for a YEAR OR MORE.

2. How long can you store canned/bottled goods?
It depends on the item in question - refer to Alan T Hagan's 'Food Storage
FAQ'. Generally speaking, for best storage of canned/bottled goods you'll
need a place that is dark, dry, and cool (but never freezing cold) all the
year round. You'll need to 'rotate' your stock, putting new purchases in
storage, and eating from the oldest cans and bottles you have stored.

3. What canned/bottled goods should I store?
There are 2 main sorts of canned/bottled goods - those where 'moist' food
has been 'cooked/pasteurised' before/during canning/bottling (baked beans,
meat, fish, stew, soup, milk, etc), and those where 'dry' food (dried or
dehydrated grains, beans, milk powder, etc) have been sealed in a can for
long-term protection against pests and the elements. The 'moist' food types
are usually 'ready to eat' on opening AS IS (even if cooking or cooling does
make them more appetising), while 'dry' food types usually NEED cooking or
rehydration (added water) to make them edible. Moist foods are generally
'open and eat as soon as possible' as due to their 'moisture', they tend to
spoil quickly once opened (especially during heat waves). Dry foods last
longer when opened than moist foods, but have the problem of needing to be
rehydrated. For ease of use, you might want to store 'single serving' size
cans/bottles of these...

MOIST
-Fruit (a large can is a meal, pears, peaches, etc - drink the juice)
-Vegetables (baked beans, salad mix beans, peas, carrots, etc)
-Grain (corn)
-Sugar (syrups, Honey may go 'candied', but still good to eat)
(syrups = Maple, Corn, Molasses, Treacle, Golden Syrup, etc)
-Pasta (kids spaghetti, 'heat and serve' meals you can eat cold)
-Milk (condensed milk, or UHT liquid milk)
-Meat (ham, corned beef, turkey, salmon, tuna, sardines)
(Wurst sausages that don't need refrigeration dry out over time)
-Condiments (herbs, spices, sauces - Worcestershire, Tomato, etc)
-Soups (canned meals)
-Drinks (water, fruit juices, cordials, sports drinks)

DRY
-Fruit (dried and 'candied' apple, pear, banana, sultanas)
-Vegetables (beans, split peas, 'instant' mashed spuds, root crops, etc)
-Grain (wheat, corn, barley, rice, oats, rolled oats, muesli bars)
-Sugar (white/brown/raw sugar, barley sugar candies)
-Pasta (whatever you prefer, macaroni, etc)
-Biscuits (rice crackers, Jatz, Sao, shortbread, etc)
-Milk ('skim' and 'full fat' powdered milks available)
-Meat (Jerky)
-Condiments (salt, pepper, dried herbs and spices)
-Soups (instant 'cup-a-soups')
-Drinks (tea, coffee, hot chocolate, herbal infusions, sports drinks)

Note on herbs and spices - many of these may have 'medicinal' values, even
if only of a 'low-level-impact' home remedy type. If you want them for DIY
home remedies, look at 'herbalist' webpages for How-To info. Some herbs can
be grown indoors, either in those trendy terra-cotta hanging baskets, or in
windowsill gardenboxes.

A good place to start learning about the medicinal effects of Herbs is the
on-line version of the 'Commission E Monographs'

http://www.herbalgram.org/commissione/

Personally, I always have a supply of chewy liquorice lollies and candied
ginger on hand ;)

Hope this helps...

--
Yours, DBM - ***@uq.net.au
From Somewhere in Australia, the Land of Tree-hugging Funnelwebs...
zadoc
2006-01-06 15:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by DBM
My two cents, for what it's worth...
IMHO, quite a lot.
Post by DBM
First, read the 'Food Storage FAQ' by Alan T Hagan
http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/
Especially the section that explains 'Best Used By', 'Use By' dates
http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/va.html
Second, ask yourself...
0. What situations might I need a food supply for?
Food preps suit a wide range of disasters, not just 'self-quarantine' due to
a Pandemic. Just look at what happened in New Orleans...
Note - The US Government recommends its citizens keep a '3-day' supply on
hand.
Hell, that is surprising! When I left the US the _minimum_
recommendation was a two week supply!
Post by DBM
Considering all of the other stuff recommended for a '3-day' or
'72-hour' pack, it appears that the '3-day' limit is based off of the
logistics of 'evacuating' by foot if need be, and CARRYING the pack with
you. The point being, that if the '3-day' pack contains ALL of the water
required for one person for 3 days, then at 4 litres (about 1 US gallon)
each day, the water alone will weigh 12 kilos or about 26.5 pounds. The
Swiss Government however, recommends a 2-week supply of food, in what
appears to be a 'shelter in place' mindset...
The water requirement is an excellent point, and perhaps many
Americans wouldn't consider it as important. It is, of course, even
more important than food.

Your liter to gallon conversion is OK if talking a US gallon, as
4 liter = 1.056 688 205 gallon [US, liquid], but not accurate if
talking a UK gallon.
4 liter = 0.879 876 993 gallon [UK]
http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm

However, almost all countries now use the metric system and the people
living in them understand liters. At 4 deg C. each liter weighs 1 kg,
and this will do for other temperatures.
Post by DBM
http://www.bwl.admin.ch/english/pdf/Household.pdf
"...There should be a fourteen days supply for each person. And the
household reserve should contain enough food which can be eaten without
being cooked to manage for at least 2 days in case there is a prolonged
interruption in the electricity or gas supply..."
Which brings us to the question...
1. How long will you need to 'provide' for yourself?
A Flu Pandemic may come in 'waves' over a number of years. This might mean
having to 'self-quarantine' for each Flu season (5 to 6 months each year)
over a number of years.
Makes good sense to me.
Post by DBM
Then again, Pandemic Flu may arrive early via
international travellers, sparking a crisis outside of the local 'Flu
season' (before or after). A Flu Pandemic could cause chaos to the economy,
and severely disrupt the supply of local and imported goods (especially
'local' goods that depend on imported items) for a number of years - which
means you may not be able to get what you want, even when the Pandemic is
'over'. In any case, it would be prudent to have AT LEAST 6 MONTHS worth of
food (and water, clothing, fuel, batteries, hygiene supplies, medicine, etc)
stored away, and BETTER to have enough for a YEAR OR MORE.
Would agree that this would be an ideal. However, not practical for
some people, especially in the USA, who live in small flats
["apartments"]

They would have enough problems even storing enough water. However,
an enterprising survivalist should manage ok if the floor will bear
enough weight.

"Welcome to our place! Now that have opened the door for you, just
climb up the little ladder to get on top of the stored food and water.
Mind your head, though." :-)
Post by DBM
2. How long can you store canned/bottled goods?
It depends on the item in question - refer to Alan T Hagan's 'Food Storage
FAQ'. Generally speaking, for best storage of canned/bottled goods you'll
need a place that is dark, dry, and cool (but never freezing cold) all the
year round. You'll need to 'rotate' your stock, putting new purchases in
storage, and eating from the oldest cans and bottles you have stored.
This depends a lot on the ambient temperature, of course.
Post by DBM
3. What canned/bottled goods should I store?
There are 2 main sorts of canned/bottled goods - those where 'moist' food
has been 'cooked/pasteurised' before/during canning/bottling (baked beans,
meat, fish, stew, soup, milk, etc), and those where 'dry' food (dried or
dehydrated grains, beans, milk powder, etc) have been sealed in a can for
long-term protection against pests and the elements. The 'moist' food types
are usually 'ready to eat' on opening AS IS (even if cooking or cooling does
make them more appetising), while 'dry' food types usually NEED cooking or
rehydration (added water) to make them edible. Moist foods are generally
'open and eat as soon as possible' as due to their 'moisture', they tend to
spoil quickly once opened (especially during heat waves). Dry foods last
longer when opened than moist foods, but have the problem of needing to be
rehydrated. For ease of use, you might want to store 'single serving' size
cans/bottles of these...
MOIST
-Fruit (a large can is a meal, pears, peaches, etc - drink the juice)
-Vegetables (baked beans, salad mix beans, peas, carrots, etc)
-Grain (corn)
-Sugar (syrups, Honey may go 'candied', but still good to eat)
(syrups = Maple, Corn, Molasses, Treacle, Golden Syrup, etc)
-Pasta (kids spaghetti, 'heat and serve' meals you can eat cold)
-Milk (condensed milk, or UHT liquid milk)
-Meat (ham, corned beef, turkey, salmon, tuna, sardines)
(Wurst sausages that don't need refrigeration dry out over time)
-Condiments (herbs, spices, sauces - Worcestershire, Tomato, etc)
-Soups (canned meals)
-Drinks (water, fruit juices, cordials, sports drinks)
DRY
-Fruit (dried and 'candied' apple, pear, banana, sultanas)
-Vegetables (beans, split peas, 'instant' mashed spuds, root crops, etc)
-Grain (wheat, corn, barley, rice, oats, rolled oats, muesli bars)
-Sugar (white/brown/raw sugar, barley sugar candies)
-Pasta (whatever you prefer, macaroni, etc)
-Biscuits (rice crackers, Jatz, Sao, shortbread, etc)
-Milk ('skim' and 'full fat' powdered milks available)
-Meat (Jerky)
-Condiments (salt, pepper, dried herbs and spices)
-Soups (instant 'cup-a-soups')
-Drinks (tea, coffee, hot chocolate, herbal infusions, sports drinks)
Note on herbs and spices - many of these may have 'medicinal' values, even
if only of a 'low-level-impact' home remedy type. If you want them for DIY
home remedies, look at 'herbalist' webpages for How-To info. Some herbs can
be grown indoors, either in those trendy terra-cotta hanging baskets, or in
windowsill gardenboxes.
A good place to start learning about the medicinal effects of Herbs is the
on-line version of the 'Commission E Monographs'
http://www.herbalgram.org/commissione/
Personally, I always have a supply of chewy liquorice lollies and candied
ginger on hand ;)
Hope this helps...
Excellent post, and a good reminder that this is supposed to be a
"survival group" and not a "political group". :-)

IMHO, the question could be asked "What are the ultimate survival
tools" for the average American or Pom?

Answer: Passport, migrant visa, air ticket to Australia while the
planes are still flying. :-)

Plenty of food available out in the "bush", assuming that one is
willing to eat meat. Lots of kangaroos and wallabies, for a start.

Strict vegetarians could have a hard time unless made their way to
Queensland. :-)

Cheers,


***@invalid.com.au
DBM
2006-01-06 17:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Quotes from a post allegedly made by 'zadoc'...

"...The water requirement is an excellent point, and perhaps many Americans
wouldn't consider it as important. It is, of course, even more important
than food..."

New Orleans was a textbook example of 'water, water, everywhere, and not a
drop (fit) to drink...'

"...IMHO, the question could be asked "What are the ultimate survival
tools" for the average American or Pom?..."

Try reading this (please tell me that the 'replies' aren't real?)
http://www.sdreader.com/php/cover.php?mode=article&showpg=1&id=20051229

Where's the character who takes an Axe (with file for sharpening), a decent
Sheath knife (with stone for sharpening ), and a Multi-Tool (for detailed
work and Techy bits...). Add a flint and they've got a fire starter with
the iron-based file, and if there's any suitable vegetation where they go,
they can make a shelter, bedding, fire, animal/fish traps, cordage, etc...

"...Plenty of food available out in the "bush"..."

Mr Myall is away from the group at the moment, but he's had a few things to
say about bush tucker, including eating the 'wild fruits' from fruit trees
grown from fruit thrown out at the side of the road, or found on trees in
abandoned homesteads, etc. For the City Dwellers, I'm reminded of one
futuristic Sylvester Stallone movie (Demolition Man?), where he eats a 'rat
burger' while checking out the 'Under City' dwellers down in the sewers...

"...Hell, that is surprising! When I left the US the _minimum_
recommendation was a two week supply!.."

Really? When was that? Most 'official' stuff I've come across recently
quotes the '3-day' (72-hour) line - have I misread or been misinformed, or
have things changed?

I read somewhere on-line that the USA once had (after the First? Second?
World War) 'strategic' food/grain reserves sufficient to feed their entire
population for a set time (weeks? months?), but abandoned the idea in recent
times and sold off the food/grain.

--
Yours, DBM - ***@uq.net.au
From Somewhere in Australia, the Land of Tree-hugging Funnelwebs...
zadoc
2006-01-07 01:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by DBM
Quotes from a post allegedly made by 'zadoc'...
"...The water requirement is an excellent point, and perhaps many Americans
wouldn't consider it as important. It is, of course, even more important
than food..."
New Orleans was a textbook example of 'water, water, everywhere, and not a
drop (fit) to drink...'
"...IMHO, the question could be asked "What are the ultimate survival
tools" for the average American or Pom?..."
Try reading this (please tell me that the 'replies' aren't real?)
http://www.sdreader.com/php/cover.php?mode=article&showpg=1&id=20051229
Just had a quick read and see what you mean. Obviously these people
have never been thirsty or hungry. Of course they are Californians,
and that could explain quite a lot actually. :-)
Post by DBM
Where's the character who takes an Axe (with file for sharpening), a decent
Sheath knife (with stone for sharpening ), and a Multi-Tool (for detailed
work and Techy bits...). Add a flint and they've got a fire starter with
the iron-based file, and if there's any suitable vegetation where they go,
they can make a shelter, bedding, fire, animal/fish traps, cordage, etc...
If they know how, that is. Incidentally, they should also have some
salt, as all animals, including humans, require it. However, depends
on where one is heading. Salt blocks are pretty common in paddocks
and a farmer probably wouldn't mind too much if you knocked off a
small chunk in an emergency.

At one time in Australia it was acceptable for a hungry man to kill a
sheep for food as long as he left the fleece hanging on a nearby
fence. I don't know if this would be acceptable today, though. No
matter, there are plenty of roos and wallabies, and they are better
eating than a damned sheep any day. :-)

Of course, you have to trap or shoot them before you can eat them. It
isn't really feasible to run them down.

Still, I would consider that Australia would be a far easier country
to survive in than the USA, not to mention the UK.
Post by DBM
"...Plenty of food available out in the "bush"..."
Mr Myall is away from the group at the moment, but he's had a few things to
say about bush tucker, including eating the 'wild fruits' from fruit trees
grown from fruit thrown out at the side of the road, or found on trees in
abandoned homesteads, etc. For the City Dwellers, I'm reminded of one
futuristic Sylvester Stallone movie (Demolition Man?), where he eats a 'rat
burger' while checking out the 'Under City' dwellers down in the sewers...
Again, depends where one is. There would be no problems surviving in
Queensland. The Great Sandy Desert, though, would be a different
proposition.

For those Yanks who have never been to Queensland, suggest you don't
miss it if you travel to Australia. Possibly the closest you will get
to the "Garden of Eden" in this life. As they say up there,
"Beautiful one day, perfect the next."

I could compare it with California, but this would upset all the
Californians on the group. :-)

To quote some bits from "Wild Food In Australia" A.B. & J.W. Cribb,
published by William Collins Publishers Pty.Ltd. Sydney, 1974
ISBN 0 00 211440 2

Quoted from some early explorers:

"Joseph Banks, writing while the _Endeavour_ was being repaired after
running aground on the Great Barrier Reef put it admirably: 'We had
been so long at with but a scanty supply of fresh provisions that we
had long used to eat every thing we could lay our hands upon, fish,
flesh or vegetable which only was not poisonous.'
Ludwig Leichhardt, likewise came to appreciate fairly rough
fare: 'Oppressed by hunger I swallowed the bones and feet of the
pigeon to allay the cravings of my stomach. A sleeping lizard with a
blunt tail and knobby scales, fell into our hands and was of course
roasted and greedily eaten.' Later, on the same journey, he enjoyed
another unconventional meal: ' We enjoyed most greatfully our two
wallabies, which were stewed, and to which I had added some green hide
to render the broth more substantial. This hide was almost 5 months
old and had served as a case to my botanical collection, which,
unfortunately, I had been compelled to leave behind. It required,
however, a little longer stewing than a fresh hide, and was rather
tasteless.' [page 15]

For Americans who think of lizards as small reptiles perhaps I
should mention that they grow rather large here.

Goanna

----------------
Goannas are a type of lizard found in various parts of Australia. They
can grow to about 2 metres long, and can be aggressive, often making a
loud hissing sound. The Perentie Goanna (Varanus giganteus) is the
largest of the Goannas, and is found in Central Australia. This
species eats meat, although Goannas also eat various plantlife.

2 metres = 200 cm = 78.74 inches ~= 6 feet, 6 inches

Photo and data on other Australian wildlife info at:
http://www.australianexplorer.com/australian_animals.htm
-------------------------
With all of the hundreds of plant species used for food by the
Australian Aborigines it is perhaps surprising that only, the
Queensland nut, has entered into commercial cultivation as a food
plant. The reason for this probably does not lie with an intrinsic
poverty of potential in the Australian flora but rather with a lack of
exploitation of this potential. In Europe and Asia, for example, the
main food plants have had the benefit of many centuries of cultivation
which in many cases has led, through selection and hybridization, to
the production of forms vastly superior to those in the wild. In
some, the cultivated form has been improved to the point that its
ancestors are now a matter of conjecture.

At the time of the coming of the white man, Australia was
inhabited by men whose culture was of the Stone Age and who were food
gatherers and hunters. The Aborigines practiced no agriculture and so
there was no opportunity for improvement, either deliberate or
unconscious, in the quality of edible plants. Perhaps the occasional
specimen of superior quality may even have been at a disadvantage if
its fruits or seeds were so assiduously gathered that it was given
little opportunity to propagate itself.

Since 1788 there has, of course, been opportunity for
selection and breeding of Australian food plants which might have led
to the production of varieties that were worth cultivating. But
Australian plants have probably 'missed the bus'. Food plants from
other regions were already so far in advance after a long tradition of
cultivation that it seemed hardly worth starting work on Australian
species. Undoubtedly native raspberries, for example, could with
suitable selection and breeding programmes, be made to yield a high
class fruit; but we already have good raspberries from other areas and
unless some dedicated amateur plant breeder takes up the task, the
Australian raspberries are likely to remain unimproved."
[pages 16,17]

"Queensland nut" =
macadamia
Related: Plant

(ma(k&180;eda-´me-e) , name for the nut of the Macadamia ternifolia,
an evergreen tree native to Australia, but cultivated in Hawaii. The
nuts, also called Queensland nuts, are eaten roasted or raw. The
macadamia tree is classified in the phylum Magnoliophyta , class
Magnoliopsida, order Proteales, family Proteaceae.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/m1/macadami.asp

Many Americans think it is a native of Hawaii, but it isn't. Its just
that the Yanks saw the commercial possibilities before most
Australians did. :-)

If any reader hasn't tried them, suggest that they do so. One of the
finest nuts in the world, IMHO. Not cheap, though, and the shell
isn't easily cracked unless you have a pair of vice grips or a hammer.

Of course, genetic engineering is advancing all the time, so who knows
what might be done with this? Actually, many of the flora and fauna
of Australia haven't even been scientifically classified, and it is
probably one of the few places in the world where a naturalist can
still get a plant or insect species named after him.

"The Australian native fruits are still at the 'crab apple' stage of
development so, on the whole, compare unfavorably with cultivated
fruits. There are, nonetheless, a considerable number of them worth
eating raw, and a larger number that respond to stewing or making into
jams or jellies." [page 20]

"SALT
_Agiceras corniculatum River Mangrove
Salt is not a food but often a very desirable addition to it. A ready
source of salt in some coastal areas is the river mangrove. This
shrub takes up salt through its roots and excretes it through glands
in its upper leaf surface. Here the solution evaporates leaving
spangled deposits of salt crystals. It would be a simple matter to
collect one's emergency requirements from this source. Except after
rain, the deposits are often so obvious that they can be used as a
guide to the identity of this mangrove. Distribution: Qld., N.S.W.,
N.T.

Of course, a survivalist in Australia has to know what not to eat as
well as knowing what is safe to eat. There is one species of berry
which looks attractive and apparently tastes OK, but at certain stages
of development destroys the optic nerve causing permanent blindness a
few hours after ingestion. A blind survivalist probably wouldn't last
very long.

There are toxic mushrooms, including _Psilocybe cubensis_ also known
as gold top, hysteria toadstool.

"Mildly poisoned eaters of the gold top may experience a
feeling of great well-being, uncontrolled mirth or disturbance of
vision. One victim decided it was time to seek medical aid when he
started receiving a coloured picture from his black and white
television set.
In recent years this species has been discovered by the drug
taking community. The active principle is psilocybin, one of the
so-called mind drugs, a hallucinogen and a prohibited drug; successful
prosecutions have been launched by police for possession of this
fungus." [page 209]

I highly recommend this book to anyone in Australia who is
remotely interested in survivalism. There are others, of course.
Post by DBM
"...Hell, that is surprising! When I left the US the _minimum_
recommendation was a two week supply!.."
Really? When was that? Most 'official' stuff I've come across recently
quotes the '3-day' (72-hour) line - have I misread or been misinformed, or
have things changed?
A long time ago when the world was young . . .

More seriously, though, a two week supply of food and water was
recommended in the Civil Defense booklets of the time. I have seen it
recommended more recently, though. Three days supply of food and
water doesn't provide much of a margin if things really go belly up.

Most people can afford a two week supply of food and water, so why not
have it on hand if space permits? It can also save a lot of trips to
the shops when run out of something one is in the mood for.
Post by DBM
I read somewhere on-line that the USA once had (after the First? Second?
World War) 'strategic' food/grain reserves sufficient to feed their entire
population for a set time (weeks? months?), but abandoned the idea in recent
times and sold off the food/grain.
Must admit haven't heard of this one. Quite possible, though. In
those days they seemed to care more about whether their citizens
starved or not.

When I was in primary school during the cold war, parents were urged
to buy a little stainless steel ID tag for their kids giving name,
address, blood type, & religious affiliation.

The advertising brochure for this stressed that it was in case the kid
got separated from his parents in the aftermath of a nuclear war.
However, it also said that the tag would survive the effects of a
nuclear blast, at a reasonable distance from ground zero anyway. So
most of the older kids quickly realized it was designed for
identification of the remains.

Cheers,


***@invalid.com.au
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