Discussion:
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
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raykeller
2014-06-16 00:23:33 UTC
Permalink
June 15, 2014
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
By Thomas Lifson
The cover-up is always worse than the crime, the conclusion drawn from
Watergate, does not seem to have been learned by the IRS or whoever directed
it to make the claim late Friday that emails from Lois Lerner to outside
agencies (including most notably the White House) were lost in a computer
"crash." That claim is risible according to various experts.

Jason Howerton of The Blaze interviewed veteran IT expert Norman Cillo, "an
Army veteran who worked in intelligence and a former program manager at
Microsoft," who laid out six reasons, complete with charts, why he believes
Congress is being lied to. Among them:

1.. I believe the government uses Microsoft Exchange for their email
servers. They have built-in exchange mail database redundancy. So, unless
they did not follow Microsofts recommendations they are telling a falsehood.
(snip)
2.. Every IT organization that I know of has hotswappable disk drives.
Every server built since 2000 has them. Meaning that if a single disk goes
bad it's easy to replace. (snip)
3.. ALL Servers use some form of RAID technology. The only way that data
can be totally lost (Meaning difficult to bring back) is if more than a
single disk goes before the first bad disk is replaced..


He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."

John Hinderaker of Powerline, a litigator with experience in court cases
involving demands for complete email records, knows that the IRS MUST have a
backup system for recording emails.

The Agency's manual on "Managing Electronic Records" has been made
public; you can read it here. A few relevant excerpts:

1.15.6.10 (03-27-2014)
?Transfer Media and Formats for Permanent Records

1. The legal requirements for the transfer of permanent records to NARA
[the National Archives and Records Administration] are documented in 36 CFR
1235 and set forth in general form in the paragraphs below. Consult the IRS
RIM Program Office for more detailed instructions and guidance on the
transfer for permanent IRS records.

1.15.6.10.1 (06-01-2010)
?Magnetic Tape

1. IRS offices may transfer electronic records to NARA on magnetic tape
using either open-reel magnetic tape or tape cartridges. Open-reel tape
should be on 1/2 inch 9-track tape reels recorded at 1600 or 6250 bytes per
inch and blocked no higher than 32,760 bytes per block. Tape cartridges
should be 18-track 3480-class cartridges recorded at 37,871 bpi and blocked
at no more than 32,760 bytes per block.

Other methods of permanent storage are also approved. What the IRS
describes in its manual is a standard document retention system. More:

1.15.6.8 (06-01-2010)?
Security of Electronic Records

1. IRS offices will implement and maintain an effective records security
program that incorporates the following:

A. Ensures that only authorized personnel have access to electronic
records.
B. Provides for backup and recovery of records to protect against
information loss or corruption.
C. Ensures that appropriate agency personnel are trained to safeguard
sensitive or classified electronic records.
D. Minimizes the risk of unauthorized alteration or erasure of electronic
records.
E. Ensures that electronic records security is included in computer
systems security plans prepared pursuant to the Computer Security Act of
1987.

***
At the direction of a management official as to what is considered a
record, the E-mail/Systems Administrators will establish procedures for
regular recopying, reformatting, and other necessary maintenance to ensure
the retention and usability of electronic records throughout their
authorized life cycle.

Hinderaker concludes:

.this is sufficient to demonstrate what was already obvious to those who
know anything about standard records management systems: a "crash" of Lois
Lerner's computer would not cause any emails to be "lost." The Obama
administration is lying, and lying in a remarkably transparent way.

He goes on to describe the ways in which data can be recovered from a
personal computer disk that has crashed, as well, citing his experience with
a data recovery firm that can pull data off a computer that has been sitting
at the bottom of a lake.

Now, this case is going to get interesting, when the cover-up starts to get
traced back to its origin. This is by definition a conspiracy, since
multiple parties had to be involved. Some of them are going to get cold
feet. Ace reporter Sharyl Attkisson lays out the questions she would
present, and they are enough to make the IRS officials involved start
thinking about copping a plea and implicating the higher ups:

...these are some of the logical requests that should be made of the IRS:

a.. Please provide a timeline of the crash and documentation covering
when it was first discovered and by whom; when, how and by whom it was
learned that materials were lost; the official documentation reporting the
crash and federal data loss; documentation reflecting all attempts to
recover the materials; and the remediation records documenting the fix. This
material should include the names of all officials and technicians involved,
as well as all internal communications about the matter.
b.. Please provide all documents and emails that refer to the crash from
the time that it happened through the IRS' disclosure to Congress Friday
that it had occurred.
c.. Please provide the documents that show the computer crash and lost
data were appropriately reported to the required entities including any
contractor servicing the IRS. If the incident was not reported, please
explain why.
d.. Please provide a list summarizing what other data was irretrievably
lost in the computer crash. If the loss involved any personal data, was the
loss disclosed to those impacted? If not, why?
e.. Please provide documentation reflecting any security analyses done
to assess the impact of the crash and lost materials. If such analyses were
not performed, why not?
f.. Please provide documentation showing the steps taken to recover the
material, and the names of all technicians who attempted the recovery.
g.. Please explain why redundancies required for federal systems were
either not used or were not effective in restoring the lost materials, and
provide documentation showing how this shortfall has been remediated.
h.. Please provide any documents reflecting an investigation into how
the crash resulted in the irretrievable loss of federal data and what
factors were found to be responsible for the existence of this situation.
i.. I would also ask for those who discovered and reported the crash to
testify under oath, as well as any officials who reported the materials as
having been irretrievably lost.
The claim of lost emails reeks of desperation and seat-of-the pants
decision-making. President Obama is known to play his cards very close to
his vest, often deciding major issues with the help of Valerie Jarrett, who
believes him to be infinitely knowledgable. That sort of hubris is the only
possible explanation for making a claim that is so easily disproved by
people with expert knowledge.

Follow the hubris.

Hat tip: Weasel Zippers and Clarice Feldman
Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
2014-06-16 02:15:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?

Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Winston_Smith
2014-06-16 02:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Not so. Just google "tape backup" to see major mainstream companies
offering equipment and services.

Thank you for proving how brain dead and ignorant the left is.

We are talking corporate level mainframe servers, not your home
Commodore 64. Typically there are a number of tapes created on
different dates. Most of them reside in a physically secure location,
often underground salt mines. The oldest is sent to the computer site
and used for a new backup and that then sent off to storage.

Much more long term reliable than hard drives or flash memory. Higher
data density, faster read/write.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 03:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Not so. Just google "tape backup" to see major mainstream companies
offering equipment and services.
Thank you for proving how brain dead and ignorant the left is.
We are talking corporate level mainframe servers, not your home
Commodore 64. Typically there are a number of tapes created on
different dates. Most of them reside in a physically secure location,
often underground salt mines. The oldest is sent to the computer site
and used for a new backup and that then sent off to storage.
Much more long term reliable than hard drives or flash memory. Higher
data density, faster read/write.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
It's equal to the missing 5 minutes of sound on the NIXON tapes, someone
is trying to hide the truth.

There are laws that require Back-up media for some businesses and
government agencies be stored off-site so that all data can't be lost in
one single accident.

This should get someone 10 years for the attempt at violating the law
and then they should still have the data somewhere.

If they deleted data Obama should himself be doing prison time.
unknown
2014-06-16 04:01:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:55:33 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Not so. Just google "tape backup" to see major mainstream companies
offering equipment and services.
Thank you for proving how brain dead and ignorant the left is.
We are talking corporate level mainframe servers, not your home
Commodore 64. Typically there are a number of tapes created on
different dates. Most of them reside in a physically secure location,
often underground salt mines. The oldest is sent to the computer site
and used for a new backup and that then sent off to storage.
Much more long term reliable than hard drives or flash memory. Higher
data density, faster read/write.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
It's equal to the missing 5 minutes of sound on the NIXON tapes, someone
is trying to hide the truth.
There are laws that require Back-up media for some businesses and
government agencies be stored off-site so that all data can't be lost in
one single accident.
This should get someone 10 years for the attempt at violating the law
and then they should still have the data somewhere.
If they deleted data Obama should himself be doing prison time.
Good thing he didn't lie to Congress to start an illegal war so his
rich oil buddies could make billions off the taxpayer's backs... oh
wait... never mind.
Guy Fawkes
2014-06-17 00:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:55:33 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server
using the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Not so. Just google "tape backup" to see major mainstream companies
offering equipment and services.
Thank you for proving how brain dead and ignorant the left is.
We are talking corporate level mainframe servers, not your home
Commodore 64. Typically there are a number of tapes created on
different dates. Most of them reside in a physically secure location,
often underground salt mines. The oldest is sent to the computer site
and used for a new backup and that then sent off to storage.
Much more long term reliable than hard drives or flash memory. Higher
data density, faster read/write.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-d
oes-the-future-hold/
It's equal to the missing 5 minutes of sound on the NIXON tapes, someone
is trying to hide the truth.
There are laws that require Back-up media for some businesses and
government agencies be stored off-site so that all data can't be lost in
one single accident.
This should get someone 10 years for the attempt at violating the law
and then they should still have the data somewhere.
If they deleted data Obama should himself be doing prison time.
Good thing he didn't lie to Congress to start an illegal war so his
rich oil buddies could make billions off the taxpayer's backs... oh
wait... never mind.
They broke the law. Now they are covering it up. To prevent justice.


No justice, no peace fuckwit.
--
When the government is no longer constrained by the laws of the land, then
neither are the people.
Winston_Smith
2014-06-16 04:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
It's equal to the missing 5 minutes of sound on the NIXON tapes, someone
is trying to hide the truth.
Even the technology forensics of 40 years ago was enough to tell what
happened. I expect a lot more info today.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
There are laws that require Back-up media for some businesses and
government agencies be stored off-site so that all data can't be lost in
one single accident.
This should get someone 10 years for the attempt at violating the law
and then they should still have the data somewhere.
But they never are. When has a high politician of any stripe wound up
in jail? Probably a few examples but precious few. The best we can
probably hope for is the truth and however that spins out in
elections.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
If they deleted data Obama should himself be doing prison time.
Whether or not they think they deleted data, in a modern networked
server system it exists in so many places it's not deleted.

Unless they had the connivance of a highly skilled IT professional,
even the deleted data can probably be recovered. There are companies
who's entire business is recovering data.

Not to mention the FBI, NSA, and a lot of other alphabet agencies have
the knowledge, skill, and equipment. Sure, they work for the great and
powerful "0h?" at the moment, but not every last one of them will be
willing to go to the wall to help him cover up.

The House can certainly get it's own experts to do the forensics. This
has come up before; it's not new ground for Congress.
rbowman
2014-06-16 05:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-16 10:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 11:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
Of course!

(doing the math... 6TB... that's 82463372083.2 cards at 80 bytes per
card)

at about 7.5 mils thick each, thats a tiny stack 618475290.6 inches high,
or 51539607.6 feet, or 9761.3 miles high!

Darn! To think we used to store useful amounts of data on Hollerith
cards! Sorta changes the perspective on what's 'useful'.

LLoyd
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-16 11:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Stormin Mormon
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
Of course!
(doing the math... 6TB... that's 82463372083.2 cards at 80 bytes per
card)
at about 7.5 mils thick each, thats a tiny stack 618475290.6 inches high,
or 51539607.6 feet, or 9761.3 miles high!
Darn! To think we used to store useful amounts of data on Hollerith
cards! Sorta changes the perspective on what's 'useful'.
LLoyd
You're pretty quick with that abacus, fellah.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
rbowman
2014-06-16 13:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
I don't know if they're still on cards but I could name a state where EBCDIC
still rules.
Scout
2014-06-16 19:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Oh, and let's not forget you don't want to pay an arm and a leg for your
data backups.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-16 20:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Oh, and let's not forget you don't want to pay an arm and a leg for
your data backups.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-storage/22114/tape-versus-disk-backup-war-exposed
Scout
2014-06-16 21:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Oh, and let's not forget you don't want to pay an arm and a leg for your
data backups.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-storage/22114/tape-versus-disk-backup-war-exposed
Yep, and this analysis is flawed in several aspects.

One it assumes that you are producing a single copy backup to be retained
only on-site.

Which normally is not the case.

Further, you normally are only going to be backing up on a regular basis
that data which has changed since the prior backup which means that 20T data
size represents a pretty massive total data storage capacity. How often you
would do a full backup depends entirely on how long you're willing to be
down for a full system recovery.

Then when you figure the need for cheap off-site backup storage (and more so
if it needs to be secure). Then again a HD based system becomes more
expensive yet. Since with a tape, I simply use my drives to produce a
redundant copy, which is moved off-site. With a HD based system I have to
have a whole new set of drives for every backup I wish to have. If you have
to retain your individual backups for any length of time, that means a HD
based system would become prohibitively expensive quite quickly.

Plus you can find alternative opinions.

http://pmi.offess.com/index.php/tape-versus-disk-backup/

Now, personally for really large scale data backup I consider the idea of a
Disk to Disk to Tape solution to have a number of benefits. Rapid on-site
data backup to your disk based solution, and your tape drives can then be
used to provide cheap copies for off-site and/or legacy copies for
regulatory, safety, and/or security reasons.
At which point the tape system is no longer limit to a small window, but
rather you can use the drives approaching a duty cycle of 24 hours per day.
Which reduces the cost of the necessary tape drives needed by about 2/3s.

Anyway, tape is king with 78% using it.... and probably because it's a more
economic solution.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-16 22:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Jim Wilkins
http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-storage/22114/tape-versus-disk-backup-war-exposed
Yep, and this analysis is flawed in several aspects.
The last commercial tape backup I used was a DC100.

I'm following this because I took a class on data structures that
covered managing serial files and records in detail. Several of the
students disagreed with the instructor and their debate brought out
many practical considerations she had skipped.

I built a tape backup system for my homebrew wirewrapped computer that
used a cassette recorder and a home-made FSK modem. I never did give
it a good automatic directory structure; the file names, starting
points and sizes were kept on paper.

This gives the technical details and specs of LTO tapes, but only a
brief mention of the economics relative to spinning hard drives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open

-jsw
news13
2014-06-16 06:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 13:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
unknown
2014-06-16 14:17:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Klaus Schadenfreude
2014-06-16 16:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
I'll bet you know as much about data backup as you do about aircraft
carriers.

"US aircraft carriers don't "pitch and roll" any more. They are too
big. Nimitz class carriers are over 1000 feet long. They are longer
than the swells so are unaffected. You can stand a pencil on the
table in the mess hall and it will stand upright while the ship is
underway."
-Deep Dudu, Navy Expert
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>


"Based on the stupid shit you post and your apalling [sic] lack of
education I'm sure your kids are dummer [sic] than sheep."
-Professor Deep Dudu
Winston_Smith
2014-06-16 17:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
In fact, it will never be retrieved unless there is a problem.
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that

If you are suggesting cloud storage, what's your upload speed?

Since you back up weekly or monthly, backup time is not that big an
issue. Put in the cartridge and press go. Do other stuff until the
tape is done.

HAVING a backup is the issue. Tape is faster and has 5 times the life
of a hard drive. The cloud is as good as someone else's management.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 17:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston_Smith
Since you back up weekly or monthly, backup time is not that big an
issue. Put in the cartridge and press go. Do other stuff until the
tape is done.
Daily, son, in all the data centers I've seen. More often during updates
and conversions.

Lloyd
unknown
2014-06-16 18:25:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:51:34 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Winston_Smith
Since you back up weekly or monthly, backup time is not that big an
issue. Put in the cartridge and press go. Do other stuff until the
tape is done.
Daily, son, in all the data centers I've seen. More often during updates
and conversions.
That's right. Incrementals nightly (changed files only), full data
backups weekly, full OS drives monthly. And the last tape library I
worked on was 36 tapes. They make them...um... somewhat larger.

http://www.quantum.com/products/tapelibraries/scalari6000/index.aspx
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Lloyd
Winston_Smith
2014-06-16 17:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.

4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.

8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.

I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
unknown
2014-06-16 18:32:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:55:24 -0700, Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
Throughput is not decided by your tape speed. It's overall throughput
of your network, including but not limited to your servers' ability to
read the file from disk.
Post by Winston_Smith
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Not really any such thing anymore. People used to go home and leave
their computers mostly idle. People work all the time now. Any
competent network admin is going to run backups at night as much for
the ability to snap shot your server drives (fewer files being
actively updated) and for not putting a load on your network at busy
times as it is for throughput of your backup operation.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 19:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:55:24 -0700, Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
Throughput is not decided by your tape speed. It's overall throughput
of your network, including but not limited to your servers' ability to
read the file from disk.
Post by Winston_Smith
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Not really any such thing anymore. People used to go home and leave
their computers mostly idle. People work all the time now. Any
competent network admin is going to run backups at night as much for
the ability to snap shot your server drives (fewer files being
actively updated) and for not putting a load on your network at busy
times as it is for throughput of your backup operation.
Idle time scanning, that's how I look for virus, it runs when the
computers have been idle, I run at least 3 different virus scanners.

You can do the work across a network when the Network is quiet or idle.
Winston_Smith
2014-06-17 02:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
Throughput is not decided by your tape speed. It's overall throughput
of your network, including but not limited to your servers' ability to
read the file from disk.
True. But that is true no matter what the backup medium. I thought you
were arguing tape was too slow; it's actually one of the faster
mediums. In any case, why would tape machine companies build them much
faster that real world computers can utilize? That would increase
their production costs and make them uncompetitive.
Post by unknown
Post by Winston_Smith
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Not really any such thing anymore. People used to go home and leave
their computers mostly idle. People work all the time now. Any
competent network admin is going to run backups at night as much for
the ability to snap shot your server drives (fewer files being
actively updated) and for not putting a load on your network at busy
times as it is for throughput of your backup operation.
Like I wrote, advantages to doing it at night.
Scout
2014-06-16 19:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.

Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 20:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
Heh! I 'grew up' in the 'mini computer' data industry using Data General
NOVA computer -- when the only options for backup were reel-to-reel tape
(two reels, not an auto-loader), or removable disk backup. Tape drives
were horrendously expensive in terms of hardware cost and daily cleaning
maintenance (and floor space), so we opted to use removable disk backup.

Keep in mind, these weren't 'data centers', but physicians' billing
offices, so the cost constraints were great, and floor space was small.

On the systems I maintained in the 70s, we had Diablo 9440 (Xerox) 10MB
drives. One 'fixed' 5MB platter in the bottom, and one removable 5MB
'cartridge' style platter on top.

Backups consisted of:
1) remove the active-data removable 'top' disk from the drive and insert
a backup disk
2) copy the fixed disk to the backup.
3) remove the backup, insert the original live data disk
4) copy that down to the fixed platter
5) remove the live disk and insert another backup disk
6) copy the fixed platter (now containing 'top disk data') to the backup.
7) remove the backup and insert the backup of the fixed platter
8) copy the data down to restore the fixed platter
9) remove the fixed platter backup, and insert the live data disk.
10) run a checksum pass on both to make sure the copy went successfully.

It took roughly 1-1/2 hours DAILY to do a 10MB copy. Some of our 70s
systems had up to 30MB, but the steps didn't triple (if you'll think
about it), it only added four more disk swaps on the backup drive.

Because you had to physically remove one of the active system disks to do
a copy, there were no "living" backups done while the system ran. Backup
was a stand-alone procedure done at the end of each business day.

LLoyd
unknown
2014-06-16 20:55:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Scout
2014-06-16 21:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 22:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".

Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.

LLoyd
unknown
2014-06-16 22:18:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:06:23 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Scout is just a know-nothing conservative troll who the progressives
here have fun toying with on a regular basis. Hell, he won't even
reply to GOP'er because he gets bitch slapped with the facts
regularly. Just the fact that he thinks all it takes is 5-10 minutes a
day to change tapes proves he has never set up a network wide
incremental backup. If you want to know how it's actually done these
days it seems so far that I'm the only one who has actually ever done
it. It's not exactly reel to reel anymore.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
LLoyd
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 22:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
If you want to know how it's actually done these
days it seems so far that I'm the only one who has actually ever done
it. It's not exactly reel to reel anymore.
Just for the record, I've probably done it four thousand times. I have
used disk-to-disk, disk-to-reel-to-reel, and disk-to-autoloader.

I _owned_ and operated the SEL-840 computer actually used as the launch
control for the Apollo missions (bought at a Cape auction). It had one
WHOLE MegaByte of '3030' 5-platter disk, twin vacuum-column tape drives,
16 WHOLE KILOwords of magnetic core memory. Some of us have experience
that goes back way before what you cite.

I know _exactly_ what it takes. His time estimate may have been off, but
that doesn't condemn every word he wrote. If you aren't Joniqueer in
disguise, why not take the good with the bad, and not condemn the writer
for a missed time estimate?

LLoyd
unknown
2014-06-16 22:39:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:28:46 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by unknown
If you want to know how it's actually done these
days it seems so far that I'm the only one who has actually ever done
it. It's not exactly reel to reel anymore.
Just for the record, I've probably done it four thousand times. I have
used disk-to-disk, disk-to-reel-to-reel, and disk-to-autoloader.
I _owned_ and operated the SEL-840 computer actually used as the launch
control for the Apollo missions (bought at a Cape auction). It had one
WHOLE MegaByte of '3030' 5-platter disk, twin vacuum-column tape drives,
16 WHOLE KILOwords of magnetic core memory. Some of us have experience
that goes back way before what you cite.
I know _exactly_ what it takes. His time estimate may have been off, but
that doesn't condemn every word he wrote. If you aren't Joniqueer in
disguise, why not take the good with the bad, and not condemn the writer
for a missed time estimate?
I know Scout's trolling style.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
LLoyd
I learned machine level programming on a Sperry Univac AN-UYK7 fire
control computer in the Navy. It had core memory planes there were
64k. My first hard drive was a removable platter IBM that was a
whopping 2 megabytes. Latest backup system I've worked on are
Quantum Scalar tape libraries that are scalable to petabytes. I don't
think they've used removable platter drives since the early 80s.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 22:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
I learned machine level programming on a Sperry Univac AN-UYK7 fire
control computer in the Navy. It had core memory planes there were
64k. My first hard drive was a removable platter IBM that was a
whopping 2 megabytes. Latest backup system I've worked on are
Quantum Scalar tape libraries that are scalable to petabytes. I don't
think they've used removable platter drives since the early 80s.
Not to belabor the point, but what you just wrote says you DON'T have as
long a background in DP as I and others here do.

That doesn't mean much, it's just that you seem to be belittling ideas
that precede your experience. You should be enjoying the anecdotes,
instead.

The computer you mention hadn't even been conceived when I started
designing digital computers for a living. 4K-word core memory was the
'standard' then. 3030-technology drives (later known as "Winchester
technology") were in the hundreds of kilobytes, and considered LARGE.

I once designed and built a CRT terminal from scratch that used a 1KB
magnetostrictive delay line memory as the character AND screen refresh
memory. It occupied about two feet of vertical space in a 19" equipment
rack (not counting the CRT, itself).

Also, last week, I designed a controller board for a pyrotechnic assembly
machine having a 120MHz processor and 8GB of memory on board -- in three
square inches of real estate! Things change. Don't belittle the old.
It is why there is "the new".

It's all a matter of perspective and experience. Don't criticize what is
NOT wrong. Just pick out the incorrect points, and don't call names when
identifying them, just say why you think they're wrong.

LLoyd
unknown
2014-06-16 23:25:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:53:14 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by unknown
I learned machine level programming on a Sperry Univac AN-UYK7 fire
control computer in the Navy. It had core memory planes there were
64k. My first hard drive was a removable platter IBM that was a
whopping 2 megabytes. Latest backup system I've worked on are
Quantum Scalar tape libraries that are scalable to petabytes. I don't
think they've used removable platter drives since the early 80s.
Not to belabor the point, but what you just wrote says you DON'T have as
long a background in DP as I and others here do.
So you win the old codger of the day award. Congrats.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
That doesn't mean much, it's just that you seem to be belittling ideas
that precede your experience. You should be enjoying the anecdotes,
instead.
The computer you mention hadn't even been conceived when I started
designing digital computers for a living. 4K-word core memory was the
'standard' then. 3030-technology drives (later known as "Winchester
technology") were in the hundreds of kilobytes, and considered LARGE.
My first Winchester drives were in a DEC VAX in my first civilian job
after the Navy.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
I once designed and built a CRT terminal from scratch that used a 1KB
magnetostrictive delay line memory as the character AND screen refresh
memory. It occupied about two feet of vertical space in a 19" equipment
rack (not counting the CRT, itself).
Cool.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Also, last week, I designed a controller board for a pyrotechnic assembly
machine having a 120MHz processor and 8GB of memory on board -- in three
square inches of real estate! Things change. Don't belittle the old.
It is why there is "the new".
I never belittled the old. Just Scout's obvious ignorance of the
subject but yet another attempt to baffle us with bullshit.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
It's all a matter of perspective and experience. Don't criticize what is
NOT wrong. Just pick out the incorrect points, and don't call names when
identifying them, just say why you think they're wrong.
I just know the in the old days computers were a lot more fun. Once
upon a time knowing electronics and binary were actually necessary.
Now it's nothing but commercial software layered on top of commercial
software, on top of hardware abstraction layers, on top of firmware...
Last decade or so I have become increasingly sick of of Micro$oft and
finally took the plunge into adventures with Ubuntu.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
LLoyd
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 23:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
I just know the in the old days computers were a lot more fun. Once
upon a time knowing electronics and binary were actually necessary.
I agree, but I also know the reason, and it's not because of Microsoft,
or any other commercial entity.

It's because when we started doing all of this, we were 'geniuses'.
Everything (EVERYTHING) about computers was as magic as smoke and mirrors
to the entire populace except for a tiny handful of geniuses who actually
understood all those 'bit and byte things'.

That it was _also_ fun to do because we were pushing boundaries and
discovering new things every day was just a bonus. The real "gold card"
was that we were rock stars then. People just ooo'd and ahhh'd when we
told them that we built and programmed computers for a living.

Not now, of course. But to be honest, that's not new. By the time the
Commodore 64 had been around for two years, about half the kids in high
school knew how to write code in both BASIC and assembly language. That
was what... '85? So as soon as every pimply-faced kid could do it in
their bedroom, it just wasn't as magic anymore! Magic smoke go bye-bye!

Lloyd
Scout
2014-06-17 01:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:53:14 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by unknown
I learned machine level programming on a Sperry Univac AN-UYK7 fire
control computer in the Navy. It had core memory planes there were
64k. My first hard drive was a removable platter IBM that was a
whopping 2 megabytes. Latest backup system I've worked on are
Quantum Scalar tape libraries that are scalable to petabytes. I don't
think they've used removable platter drives since the early 80s.
Not to belabor the point, but what you just wrote says you DON'T have as
long a background in DP as I and others here do.
So you win the old codger of the day award. Congrats.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
That doesn't mean much, it's just that you seem to be belittling ideas
that precede your experience. You should be enjoying the anecdotes,
instead.
The computer you mention hadn't even been conceived when I started
designing digital computers for a living. 4K-word core memory was the
'standard' then. 3030-technology drives (later known as "Winchester
technology") were in the hundreds of kilobytes, and considered LARGE.
My first Winchester drives were in a DEC VAX in my first civilian job
after the Navy.
Is that the Navy that doesn't have carriers that pitch and roll, and was
that before or after you served as an flight officer in the Indian Air
Force?

Yea, Dudu, as if you have any creditability about your personal affairs.
Scout
2014-06-16 23:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:28:46 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by unknown
If you want to know how it's actually done these
days it seems so far that I'm the only one who has actually ever done
it. It's not exactly reel to reel anymore.
Just for the record, I've probably done it four thousand times. I have
used disk-to-disk, disk-to-reel-to-reel, and disk-to-autoloader.
I _owned_ and operated the SEL-840 computer actually used as the launch
control for the Apollo missions (bought at a Cape auction). It had one
WHOLE MegaByte of '3030' 5-platter disk, twin vacuum-column tape drives,
16 WHOLE KILOwords of magnetic core memory. Some of us have experience
that goes back way before what you cite.
I know _exactly_ what it takes. His time estimate may have been off, but
that doesn't condemn every word he wrote. If you aren't Joniqueer in
disguise, why not take the good with the bad, and not condemn the writer
for a missed time estimate?
I know Scout's trolling style.
You should since I spend so much of my time exposing your ignorance and
lies.

Oh, and FYI, with an autoloader all you have to do is load the new tapes
start the process and collect the finished tapes at the end of the run.
Now, if I had to manually load the tapes, either 9 track or cartridge then
yes, it would have taken much more time. As it was, drop in a set of tapes,
start the backup, turn out the lights and go home. That's the advantage of
automation....it keeps working even if you're not around.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 23:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
it keeps working even if you're not around.
SOMEtimes, it keeps working. Have you ever had to clear a tape snarl
inside (say) an Ampex auto-loader? It ain't purdy!

Lloyd
Scout
2014-06-16 23:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
it keeps working even if you're not around.
SOMEtimes, it keeps working. Have you ever had to clear a tape snarl
inside (say) an Ampex auto-loader? It ain't purdy!
Luckily that was a problem for days to deal with. I just had to start the
process.

:-)
Scout
2014-06-16 23:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:06:23 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Scout is just a know-nothing conservative troll who
Regularly has to correct your ignorance and expose your lies.
Scout
2014-06-16 23:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center with 2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often got the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of our data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
unknown
2014-06-16 23:40:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:01:53 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center with 2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often got the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of our data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 23:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
That would be a "graveyard SHIFT tape-swap monkey". Get it right, AND stop
calling people names for jobs they had three decades ago! Geesh!

I'll bet you worked a couple of menial jobs as a youth, too. No? You were
_always_ a genius with top-scale pay, making $100K in 1980?


Lloyd
unknown
2014-06-18 01:45:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:48:29 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by unknown
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
That would be a "graveyard SHIFT tape-swap monkey". Get it right, AND stop
calling people names for jobs they had three decades ago! Geesh!
I'll bet you worked a couple of menial jobs as a youth, too. No? You were
_always_ a genius with top-scale pay, making $100K in 1980?
No, but I know that network wide backups are not as simple as 5-10
minutes a day tape swapping. Somebody needs to bitch slap the idiot
Scout when he says stupid shit like that.
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Lloyd
Scout
2014-06-18 02:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:48:29 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by unknown
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
That would be a "graveyard SHIFT tape-swap monkey". Get it right, AND stop
calling people names for jobs they had three decades ago! Geesh!
I'll bet you worked a couple of menial jobs as a youth, too. No? You were
_always_ a genius with top-scale pay, making $100K in 1980?
No, but I know that network wide backups are not as simple as 5-10
minutes a day tape swapping. Somebody needs to bitch slap the idiot
Scout when he says stupid shit like that.
Network wide?

Last time I checked we were simply backing up a data center, not every
system on the network, but whatever.

So tell me, in your vast experience exactly how long do you think it would
take to load a set of tapes into the input hoppers of a pair of autoloading
tape drives, step over to the system's monitor station and start the backup
program?

Go ahead, Dudu, explain in vast detail exactly why it should take more
actual involvement by a person than what I indicated.

I see you break dancing, but what I don't see is you producing anything to
refute what I have stated.
Scout
2014-06-17 01:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:01:53 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center with 2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often got the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of our data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
And utterly showed you up. So what does that tell us about YOUR past?

So tell me again how long it takes to start a backup running with
autoloading tape drives?

But of course, you've been a pilot, sailor, office, enlisted, computer guru,
and all before you hit puberty.
unknown
2014-06-18 01:31:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 21:37:15 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:01:53 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center with 2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often got the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of our data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
And utterly showed you up. So what does that tell us about YOUR past?
So tell me again how long it takes to start a backup running with
autoloading tape drives?
But of course, you've been a pilot, sailor, office, enlisted, computer guru,
and all before you hit puberty.
You even know what a push agent is tape swap monkey?
Scout
2014-06-18 01:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 21:37:15 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:01:53 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center
with
2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often got the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of our data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
And utterly showed you up. So what does that tell us about YOUR past?
So tell me again how long it takes to start a backup running with
autoloading tape drives?
But of course, you've been a pilot, sailor, office, enlisted, computer guru,
and all before you hit puberty.
You even know what a push agent is tape swap monkey?
<yawn> You've already lost here Dudu.

Accept it, you made claims, people who know better have seen through your
lies, and all the bluster in the world isn't going to make people assume
your creditable.
unknown
2014-06-18 01:50:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:42:03 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 21:37:15 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:01:53 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details, but it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center
with
2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often got the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of our data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
And utterly showed you up. So what does that tell us about YOUR past?
So tell me again how long it takes to start a backup running with
autoloading tape drives?
But of course, you've been a pilot, sailor, office, enlisted, computer guru,
and all before you hit puberty.
You even know what a push agent is tape swap monkey?
<yawn> You've already lost here Dudu.
Accept it, you made claims, people who know better have seen through your
lies, and all the bluster in the world isn't going to make people assume
your creditable.
Ah, I see you don't. You couldn't even google it an try to pretend
you're smart? You really should stay out of conversations you
clearly know nothing about. But I guess that would be everything.

You figure out yet we count from zero, and not one?

snicker....
Scout
2014-06-18 02:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 21:42:03 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 21:37:15 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:01:53 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
If I had nothing else to go on but the character of his replies and his
'automatic' condemnations of others, I'd think that 'Deep(ly disturbed)'
is just another pseudonym for "Jonnie the Queer".
Scout, I didn't pick apart your recent posts for precise details,
but
it
sounds like you have a handle on how backups are done in the real world.
Well, my stuff has been limited to fairly a fairly small data center
with
2
autoload tape drive units and a couple of old 9 track units for legacy
purposes. Back up was started an the end of night shift and I often
got
the
job of handling that. Load up a set of blanks in the drive, start the
process, turn out the lights and go home. Was ready when they came in the
next morning. One set would be kept on site, the other moved into a secure
facility off site. I would say we cycled through the tape copies of
our
data
backups over about a 12 month period. So at any moment in time we probably
had about 6 full copies of the data as it existed at different points in
time....which not only allowed data security, but a activity trail of data
changes, activity and access information.
A graveyard tape swap monkey. Just as I thought.
And utterly showed you up. So what does that tell us about YOUR past?
So tell me again how long it takes to start a backup running with
autoloading tape drives?
But of course, you've been a pilot, sailor, office, enlisted, computer guru,
and all before you hit puberty.
You even know what a push agent is tape swap monkey?
<yawn> You've already lost here Dudu.
Accept it, you made claims, people who know better have seen through your
lies, and all the bluster in the world isn't going to make people assume
your creditable.
Ah, I see you don't. You couldn't even google it an try to pretend
you're smart? You really should stay out of conversations you
clearly know nothing about. But I guess that would be everything.
I just don't really care Dudu. You've already shown your ignorance on the
matter, so at this point that's all that's necessary.
unknown
2014-06-16 22:25:24 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:22:54 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
Not if you think all it takes is 5-10 minutes daily to swap tapes you
haven't.
Scout
2014-06-16 23:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:22:54 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
Not if you think all it takes is 5-10 minutes daily to swap tapes you
haven't.
So tell me, how long do you think it should take to drop 10 tape cartridges
into the input hopper, and run the backup program?

Even taking out the tapes from the output hopper won't add much time to the
process.

I'm just sorry you never got to use an tape drive with an autoloader so you
didn't have to hang around to swap tapes by hand.
unknown
2014-06-16 23:34:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:08:59 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:22:54 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
Not if you think all it takes is 5-10 minutes daily to swap tapes you
haven't.
So tell me, how long do you think it should take to drop 10 tape cartridges
into the input hopper, and run the backup program?
Even taking out the tapes from the output hopper won't add much time to the
process.
I'm just sorry you never got to use an tape drive with an autoloader so you
didn't have to hang around to swap tapes by hand.
Clearly you've never been anything but an operator. A tape swap
monkey. Obviously you had someone else design, setup and configure
the systems.
Scout
2014-06-17 01:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:08:59 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:22:54 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Actually I have.
Not if you think all it takes is 5-10 minutes daily to swap tapes you
haven't.
So tell me, how long do you think it should take to drop 10 tape cartridges
into the input hopper, and run the backup program?
Even taking out the tapes from the output hopper won't add much time to the
process.
I'm just sorry you never got to use an tape drive with an autoloader so you
didn't have to hang around to swap tapes by hand.
Clearly you've never been anything but an operator. A tape swap
monkey. Obviously you had someone else design, setup and configure
the systems.
Ah, poor baby things that having to do all that other stuff means it takes
more labor to produce a backup given a autoloader tape drive.

And no, I did not design, setup or configure that particular system, but
then a lot of sysops didn't and don't. That's why they are called system
OPERATORS, rather than sysdesign, syssets or sysconfigs.

I will simply acknowledge Dudu's lame surrender.
Klaus Schadenfreude
2014-06-17 12:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Coming from Dudu, this is fucking hilarious.


"Based on the stupid shit you post and your apalling [sic] lack of
education I'm sure your kids are dummer [sic] than sheep."
-Professor Deep Dudu
Scout
2014-06-17 22:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Schadenfreude
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:52:10 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by unknown
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/tape-backup-vs-hard-disk-backup-what-does-the-future-hold/
Tape drives ~ 500 MB/s, some models claim 800
Hard drives ~ 130 MB/s, solid state might double that
Not hours and hours unless you are counting them individually, 2 1/4
hours for 4 TB on tape.
4,000 GB
4,000,000 MB/500 MB/s = 8,000 seconds/60 = 133 minutes/60 = 2 hr, 13
minutes.
8 1/2 hours for hard drive; 4 hours for SSD.
I'm sure it can be set up to run in the quiet night time.
Heck, and if you use an auto tape loading drive, you can simply come back
later collect your completed backup, load in a new set of tapes and walk
away again.
Yea, that's really going to be a bear having to take 5-10 man/minutes to
handle the backup each day.
There's something else you've obviously never done and argue from a
position of complete ignorance.
Coming from Dudu, this is fucking hilarious.
Yep, and watch the evolution as Dudu dances around and waves his hands in
the air, and in the end he agrees that nothing more is necessary.

Makes one wonder about his claims of his experience....but then we already
know about such claims...
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 19:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Oddly enough I understand it all I run web sites and have set up RAID
and back-up systems and years gone by I had cassette type tape back-ups
in PC's and I mirror and use external drives with back-up programs to
keep the data current, the program looks for changes and compares the
data and looks for file access dates then only adds or transfers the
changes on the disk drive to the back up rather than doing a full
Back-up continuous of the entire hard drive daily.

Doing it so that it only runs once a day and just writes new data that
has changed speeds it up, but the laws may require specific types of
back-up for the government data depending on how secret it is or how
important it is.
Scout
2014-06-16 19:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Poor Dudu, first he suggests that tape is a bad data storage medium, then a
few posts later he admits it's use as the data storage medium in data
centers.

*****Copy material from later post

That's right. Incrementals nightly (changed files only), full data
backups weekly, full OS drives monthly. And the last tape library I
worked on was 36 tapes. They make them...um... somewhat larger.

***End

Seems like Dudu is once again trying to talk like he actually knows what
he's talking about, but internally his comments show that he doesn't.
unknown
2014-06-16 21:00:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:49:50 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Poor Dudu, first he suggests that tape is a bad data storage medium, then a
few posts later he admits it's use as the data storage medium in data
centers.
I never said tape is a bad data storage medium. You have me mixed up
with somebody else.
Post by Scout
*****Copy material from later post
That's right. Incrementals nightly (changed files only), full data
backups weekly, full OS drives monthly. And the last tape library I
worked on was 36 tapes. They make them...um... somewhat larger.
***End
Seems like Dudu is once again trying to talk like he actually knows what
he's talking about, but internally his comments show that he doesn't.
I used Arcserve for years to back up dozens of servers to an ADIC (now
Quantum) Scalar tape library. I had a relatively small one. Up to
36 LTOs but Quantum now makes units scalable to hundreds of tapes in
the petabyte range.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 14:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.


Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.

EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Scout
2014-06-16 20:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines. Say a nice
gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work. If the
surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low resistance
path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to ground,
Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that makes it past
the arrestors. For data, you simply 'drop offline', for power it blows the
breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal UPS which allows you to
continue operations, or hold the system long enough for a smooth shutdown.

Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet that
critical data centers would use such measures.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 23:20:29 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.

Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
If the surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low
resistance path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to
ground, Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that
makes it past the arrestors.
We replaced a lot of circuit boards with holes burned in them despite
the suppression.
For data, you simply 'drop offline', for
power it blows the breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal
UPS which allows you to continue operations, or hold the system long
enough for a smooth shutdown.
Yep I have a UPS here on my Linux system.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet
that critical data centers would use such measures.
That or use Optical for data they might lose by electromagnetic sabotage
or accidental.... does radiation and microwaves cause data loss on tape
and Hard drive/magnetic disk?

I had a degaussing tool (electromagnet) for the old tube TV sets that I
used to wipe disks that I wanted to make sure there was no data left on
them.

I'll have to get another one and name it "the IRS TOOL" it works for
them so they'll believe it when I tell them it happened to me, right?


Oooooppspssssss lost all that tax data so I don't owe any money...
NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 23:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
I had a degaussing tool (electromagnet) for the old tube TV sets that I
used to wipe disks that I wanted to make sure there was no data left on
them.
I still have a magnetic tape eraser from the 80s. It's a useful degausser
for tools, which is the only reason I keep it. I have used it to degauss
shadow mask CRTs, as well. It takes longer than a big 'hula hoop'
degausser, but works. (Dad and I had a TV repair shop in the 1960s. Fun
stuff, then, when _everything_ electronic was 'magic' to the public.)

Lloyd
Scout
2014-06-17 01:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580

I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
If the surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low
resistance path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to
ground, Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that
makes it past the arrestors.
We replaced a lot of circuit boards with holes burned in them despite
the suppression.
Sounds like you needed more.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
For data, you simply 'drop offline', for
power it blows the breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal
UPS which allows you to continue operations, or hold the system long
enough for a smooth shutdown.
Yep I have a UPS here on my Linux system.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet
that critical data centers would use such measures.
That or use Optical for data they might lose by electromagnetic sabotage
or accidental.... does radiation and microwaves cause data loss on tape
and Hard drive/magnetic disk?
Optical has it's advantages, but it's just as subject to sabotage. Just heat
them up.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
I had a degaussing tool (electromagnet) for the old tube TV sets that I
used to wipe disks that I wanted to make sure there was no data left on
them.
I'll have to get another one and name it "the IRS TOOL" it works for
them so they'll believe it when I tell them it happened to me, right?
Oooooppspssssss lost all that tax data so I don't owe any money...
NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO.
Not a bad idea....I suppose they could try to slap you with a 'destruction
of evidence' charge, but that only applies to your activities. You simply
need to insure that you either activate it before they serve the warrant, or
you insure that it's their action(s) that results in the data lose.
pyotr filipivich
2014-06-17 04:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.

First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia

Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.

I recall a story which boiled down to, at a party, the guy was
talking about computers with someone in the service. The military guy
was using a UNIX based computer to run the classified programs on it.
¿how do you keep from being hacked? he was asked. The computer is in
a small, shielded room, inside a large building, with Marines at the
doors, and is run off batteries. Nothing goes in or out, without
being signed for.
Now, that is one extreme, and as you can imagine, does pose a
problem when it comes to communications, but ... it is secure.
--
pyotr filipivich
The fears of one class of men are not the measure of the rights of another.
-- George Bancroft
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-17 10:38:38 UTC
Permalink
"required by law to keep backups"

And how much respect for law do you find,
in this admin and the elected people?
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 12:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
I recall a story which boiled down to, at a party, the guy was
talking about computers with someone in the service. The military guy
was using a UNIX based computer to run the classified programs on it.
¿how do you keep from being hacked? he was asked. The computer is in
a small, shielded room, inside a large building, with Marines at the
doors, and is run off batteries. Nothing goes in or out, without
being signed for.
Now, that is one extreme, and as you can imagine, does pose a
problem when it comes to communications, but ... it is secure.
--
pyotr filipivich
The military's secure networking capability was mature and very solid
when I entered that field in 1970. The weakness is in personnel, not
technology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker

The tech dates from WW2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGSALY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGABA

FCC Class B is a civilian version to study if you are interested in
learning more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintentional_radiator
The filtering that keeps junk from getting out also prevents external
noise from getting in.

I have some aftermarket laptop power adapters that belch out enough
broadband noise to jam a wireless mouse. My spectrum analyzer displays
their RF emissions the way an oscilloscope shows digital and analog.
Without one you are just guessing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_analyzer

This is the more complex instrument you need to design and test
communications circuits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_analyzer_(electrical)
It injects a signal that sweeps across the frequency band and shows
how the circuit responds. That Smith Chart display shows how a (for
example) poorly designed transmission line's impedance varies with
frequency. The simple explanation is that the center is 50 Ohms, the X
axis is pure resistance (amplitude, real power) and the Y is
capacitance / inductance (phase shift, apparent power, SWR). You read
the frequency by moving the marker along the yellow line with the knob
at the top. The goal is to minimize the size of the loops.

It will also show you how well the circuit rejects out-of-band
interference. The spectrum analyzer only passively shows how much
external noise gets through.

-n7q2d3
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-17 12:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
That Smith Chart display shows how a (for
example) poorly designed transmission line's impedance varies with
frequency.
Jim,
FWIW, the term "transmission line" usually implies a tuned circuit in
order to achieve a specific impedance across a particular (fairly narrow)
range of frequencies.

It ordinarily _would_ display different impedances at different
frequencies, and that alone does not imply that it was 'poorly designed'.

All it normally implies is that it won't display the desired impedance
except at the design frequency.


LLoyd
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 13:24:23 UTC
Permalink
news:lnpbpd$1bc
Post by Jim Wilkins
That Smith Chart display shows how a (for
example) poorly designed transmission line's impedance varies with
frequency.
Jim,
FWIW, the term "transmission line" usually implies a tuned circuit in
order to achieve a specific impedance across a particular (fairly narrow)
range of frequencies.
It ordinarily _would_ display different impedances at different
frequencies, and that alone does not imply that it was 'poorly
designed'.
All it normally implies is that it won't display the desired
impedance
except at the design frequency.
LLoyd
A good transmission line such as RG-6 cable TV coax or a scope probe
has constant properties across a very wide bandwidth, and gives a
Smith chart showing a point in the center or or very small circle
around it. They are intentionally NOT tuned except for matching
networks at the ends that compensate for a necessarily mismatched
load, like the spiral coil on a mobile whip antenna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line

The 0.141" semi-rigid stuff I used for internal SMA connections was
good to over 20 GHz.

Try writing a simple explanation of a Smith chart and complex
impedance yourself. It's relevant to us as the Power Factor of a
motor.

-jsw
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 16:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
The 0.141" semi-rigid stuff I used for internal SMA connections was
good to over 20 GHz.
-jsw
Here it is, the 0.141" low-loss semi-rigid:
http://www.src-cables.com/semi_rigid_coax_cable.php
The attenuation in a few feet of it was less than 1dB at the GPS
frequency of 1.57542 GHz.
-jsw
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-17 16:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
Provided it's all shielded from the EMP or solar flare or lightening
strikes etc.... Usually the battery is hooked to a charger or solar
charger or Wind generator that is outside and subjected to all the
things that cause spikes in the system and then what... I don't know
maybe redundant suppression for the charging lines and then more after
the batteries?

At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-17 16:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Most of them went to WIFI, and read the meters by just driving down the
road.

They retro-fitted our meters about a year ago.
There IS a 'short haul' data transmission on the power lines from the
meter to the road pole.

For my shop, that's only about 50'. For my home, it's over 450'.

Lloyd

Lloyd
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 17:41:06 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
They can but it isn't all that reliable. SCR dimmers and speed
controls create impulse noise, the pole transformers block higher
frequencies and all the caps across the line in household surge
suppressors and switching power supplies absorb the signal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerline_communication

We are due for electronic meters which can be read from a vehicle
driving by. They aren't networked to each other and to Big Brother
like Smart Meters.
http://www.psnh.com/CustomerSupport/Home/Automated-Meter-Reading-FAQs.aspx

-jsw
Bert
2014-06-17 17:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Broadband over power lines (BPL) is a method of power line
communication that allows relatively high-speed digital data
transmission over the public electric power distribution wiring.
BPL uses higher frequencies, a wider frequency range and
different technologies from other forms of power-line
communications to provide high-rate communication over longer
distances. BPL uses frequencies which are part of the radio
spectrum allocated to over-the-air communication services
therefore the prevention of interference to, and from, these
services is a very important factor in designing BPL systems .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

Every place it's been tried, the interference to licensed radio services
was extreme. It's still being tried in a few cities, but it's mostly
abandoned in the US.
--
***@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
Scout
2014-06-17 22:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use
TAPE
backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
Provided it's all shielded from the EMP or solar flare or lightening
strikes etc.... Usually the battery is hooked to a charger or solar
charger or Wind generator that is outside and subjected to all the
things that cause spikes in the system and then what... I don't know
maybe redundant suppression for the charging lines and then more after
the batteries?
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Fully developed and on-line. Hell they can now shut down, or turn on, power
to individual homes from the central office. No need for anyone to even come
out anymore.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 23:43:02 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Fully developed and on-line. Hell they can now shut down, or turn
on, power to individual homes from the central office. No need for
anyone to even come out anymore.
Smart Meters don't necessarily communicate over the power grid wires.

They can talk to each other by radio, using the Wi-Fi band at 2.4 GHz,
which means they could be instructed to monitor your home network if
some evil force commanded it. They whisper your secrets back and forth
between themselves until the Neighborhood Concentrator has overheard
everything.

http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/customerservice/smartmeter/howitworks/index.page
"Each RF mesh-enabled device (meters, relays) is connected to several
other mesh-enabled devices, which function as signal repeaters,
relaying the data to an access point. The access point device
aggregates, encrypts, and sends the data back to PG&E over a secure
commercial third-party network."

http://www.arrl.org/smart-meters
"In some areas, smart meters and/or the smart grid may use
carrier-current technology. Each electric utility chooses the
architecture they want to deploy, ..."

-thewallshaveears
Scout
2014-06-17 22:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Perhaps, but you could easily corrupt your data if the media is being
written to at the moment that the electronics are fried.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
To a large extent that's true, but it also means a massive step backwards in
overall performance. Far easier to simply shield your electronics.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
So what size battery do you think it would take to operate a large scale
data center?
Post by pyotr filipivich
I recall a story which boiled down to, at a party, the guy was
talking about computers with someone in the service. The military guy
was using a UNIX based computer to run the classified programs on it.
¿how do you keep from being hacked? he was asked. The computer is in
a small, shielded room, inside a large building, with Marines at the
doors, and is run off batteries. Nothing goes in or out, without
being signed for.
Now, that is one extreme, and as you can imagine, does pose a
problem when it comes to communications, but ... it is secure.
Yep.
Gunner Asch
2014-06-17 00:46:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:02:55 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines. Say a nice
gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work. If the
surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low resistance
path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to ground,
Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that makes it past
the arrestors. For data, you simply 'drop offline', for power it blows the
breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal UPS which allows you to
continue operations, or hold the system long enough for a smooth shutdown.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet that
critical data centers would use such measures.
Data should..should be converted to optical THEN brought into the
plant.

Its far harder to shield data lines than power lines...so one makes
sure the transmission media wont carry EMP



Gunner

"Libertarianism IS fascism... Fascism is corporate government – a Libertarian’s wet dream"
Tala Brandeis
Owner at Tala Brandeis Associates"
Scout
2014-06-17 01:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner Asch
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:02:55 -0400, "Scout"
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines. Say a nice
gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work. If the
surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low resistance
path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to ground,
Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that makes it past
the arrestors. For data, you simply 'drop offline', for power it blows the
breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal UPS which allows you to
continue operations, or hold the system long enough for a smooth shutdown.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet that
critical data centers would use such measures.
Data should..should be converted to optical THEN brought into the
plant.
Its far harder to shield data lines than power lines...so one makes
sure the transmission media wont carry EMP
Sure, which is easy to do with fiber optic, but still you want to shield the
lines for spikes of other sorts so you don't have to keep replacing the
converts.
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-16 11:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Explains the VA thing, the doctors get to work in
Model T, and takes longer.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Guy Fawkes
2014-06-17 00:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
--
When the government is no longer constrained by the laws of the land, then
neither are the people.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-17 16:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Fawkes
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.

Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
Scout
2014-06-17 22:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
Particularly since they couldn't be lost.

There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.

IRS.
White House
NSA
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 23:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-17 23:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
Maybe some copies on Snowden's laptop.... they want him real bad so he
has something. It has to be bad for Obama because they want Snowden and
they don't want 5 Taliban terrorists that kill Americans. Obama either
thinks more of his secrets than he does our lives or He's even dumber
than we think.



This is proof that Obama is a Narcissist and a Sociopath who could care
less how many people die as long as he gets what he wants.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------

*This e-mail was scanned by the NSA*
And was found to be infected with language used by the TEA PARTY,
bullies, racists and groups on Obama's specified enemies list for the
IRS - this language does not meet the Community Organizer Standards of
acceptable communications within the Socialist States Of America...
Antispyware protection is futile and your personal data has been
assimilated @ http://www.NSA.gov
--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Rumination*

#19 - Deciding how much Socialism is too much, is like deciding how much
dog shit in your ice cream is too much.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-18 00:11:15 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
Maybe some copies on Snowden's laptop.... they want him real bad so he
has something. It has to be bad for Obama because they want Snowden and
they don't want 5 Taliban terrorists that kill Americans. Obama either
thinks more of his secrets than he does our lives or He's even
dumber
than we think.
The abbreviation is now SVR, not KGB. I can't wind my tongue up tight
enough to pronounce the full name.
benj
2014-06-18 00:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
Maybe some copies on Snowden's laptop.... they want him real bad so he
has something. It has to be bad for Obama because they want Snowden and
they don't want 5 Taliban terrorists that kill Americans. Obama either
thinks more of his secrets than he does our lives or He's even dumber
than we think.
Two excellent theories either one or both of which would be correct!
rbowman
2014-06-18 02:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Scout
2014-06-18 02:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Yea, that would be a hoot.

BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-18 00:03:06 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
Particularly since they couldn't be lost.
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
Google
and the people Lois Lerner sent the e-mail to.

In the FBI or the other agencies she was coordinating with as in "the
other investigators" that she put on the case and her handlers that were
above her.

The people TEA PARTY PEOPLE that she contacted and anyone in her CC list
or in her mail program address list.
Edward A. Falk
2014-06-18 02:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
A) not so, and

B) so what? One way or another, there will be backups.
--
-Ed Falk, ***@despams.r.us.com
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
Frank
2014-06-17 13:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Forget all the technicalities.
Emails requested over a year ago just found to be missing.
Obviously more stalling by a politically motivated agency.
F. George McDuffee
2014-06-17 20:11:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
June 15, 2014
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
By Thomas Lifson
<snip>
All the emails from six more individuals have been lost.
Their computers crashed, and the server back-up tapes can't
be located.

Just set the following off to my Congressional
Representatives. see senate.gov and house.gov for yours.

============ email follows ============
NEVER CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH ACCOMPLISHMENT

To:
Senator Roberts
Senator Moran
Representative Jenkins
Representative Pompeo

From:
Dr. George McDuffee

Date:
Tuesday, June 17, 2014

Ref:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/16/house-committee-subpoenas-head-irs-to-testify-on-lost-lerner-emails/
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/us_politics/2014/06/lawmakers_irs_lost_more_emails_in_tea_party_probe
<snip>
On Tuesday, two key lawmakers said the IRS has also lost
emails from six additional IRS workers whose computers
crashed. Among them was Nikole Flax, who was chief of staff
to Lerner's boss, then-deputy commissioner Steven Miller.
</snip>


While I appreciate a symbolic gesture
[http://washingtonexaminer.com/house-budget-punishes-irs-with-15-cut-halts-obamacare-enforcement/article/2549830?custom_click=rss
], it is critical to remember that it is only symbolic.

There are several specific action items that can be
accomplished IF THE CONGRESS IS SERIOUS about recovery of
the “lost” emails, between the IRS, administration, and
quite likely the DNC and Democratic members of Congress.

(1) Issue subpoenas to the web-based back-up services such
as Carbonite. The missing emails may have been part of a
back-up. The Carbonite site is included as an example, there
are many others. http://www.carbonite.com/ . Many of the
ISP providers also offer back-up services, example:
http://www.valnet.net/services/valnet-vault . Another
possibility is that off-site back-ups may have been done to
a FTP account on an ISP server. Example software to do this
can be seen at http://alternativeto.net/software/duplicati/
, there are many others.

(2) Offer a substantial cash reward [e. g. 100,000$US] for
copies of the back-ups, no questions asked. While it may be
difficult for the House to allocate the reward money, I am
sure several PACs will be most happy to underwrite such an
effort.

This again demonstrates that a requirement, i. e. retention
of communications and documents by governmental departments,
means nothing unless it is backed with significant civil and
criminal penalties for the failure to do so.

It is suggested that the penalties be different for
inadvertent failure to retain, such as the demotion of one
or more GSA pay grade and loss of 5 years of longevity to
retirement and a pension, to mandatory prison time of at
least one year [to establish a felony conviction],
significant money fines [possibly 50% of the individual’s
net worth], dismissal from the civil service, and loss of
civil service pension/retirement, for deliberate failure to
retain, or in this case the destruction of such records.

Given the Republican minority in the Senate, and the
Imperial presidency, it is most doubtful such meaningful
legislation could be enacted in the current political
environment, but it should be a priority item at the first
opportunity.
========= end of email ============
--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"
Scout
2014-06-17 22:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
June 15, 2014
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
By Thomas Lifson
<snip>
All the emails from six more individuals have been lost.
Their computers crashed, and the server back-up tapes can't
be located.
Just set the following off to my Congressional
Representatives. see senate.gov and house.gov for yours.
============ email follows ============
NEVER CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH ACCOMPLISHMENT
Senator Roberts
Senator Moran
Representative Jenkins
Representative Pompeo
Dr. George McDuffee
Tuesday, June 17, 2014
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/16/house-committee-subpoenas-head-irs-to-testify-on-lost-lerner-emails/
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/us_politics/2014/06/lawmakers_irs_lost_more_emails_in_tea_party_probe
<snip>
On Tuesday, two key lawmakers said the IRS has also lost
emails from six additional IRS workers whose computers
crashed. Among them was Nikole Flax, who was chief of staff
to Lerner's boss, then-deputy commissioner Steven Miller.
</snip>
While I appreciate a symbolic gesture
[http://washingtonexaminer.com/house-budget-punishes-irs-with-15-cut-halts-obamacare-enforcement/article/2549830?custom_click=rss
], it is critical to remember that it is only symbolic.
There are several specific action items that can be
accomplished IF THE CONGRESS IS SERIOUS about recovery of
the "lost" emails, between the IRS, administration, and
quite likely the DNC and Democratic members of Congress.
<snip>

Or they could quit dicking around and simply order the NSA to cough them up.
After all, they retain copies of ALL emails, private, corporate, and
governmental.
F. George McDuffee
2014-06-18 01:58:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 18:45:04 -0400, "Scout"
<***@centurylink.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Scout
Or they could quit dicking around and simply order the NSA to cough them up.
After all, they retain copies of ALL emails, private, corporate, and
governmental.
==============
Indeed, but NSA pays less attention to what the Congress
says/wants than the IRS does.
--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"
Winston_Smith
2014-06-18 01:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by raykeller
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
The cover-up is always worse than the crime, the conclusion drawn from
Watergate, does not seem to have been learned by the IRS or whoever directed
it to make the claim late Friday that emails from Lois Lerner to outside
agencies (including most notably the White House) were lost in a computer
"crash." That claim is risible according to various experts.
Jason Howerton of The Blaze interviewed veteran IT expert Norman Cillo, "an
Army veteran who worked in intelligence and a former program manager at
Microsoft," who laid out six reasons, complete with charts, why he believes
Today's newscast brings reports they lost much more than they thought
when that ladies' personal computer crashed. Oh, yeah, one PC dies and
that cripples a network. Why do I have trouble believing that?

The cover up is expanding. Impound the drives and backup tapes now.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-18 01:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by raykeller
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
The cover-up is always worse than the crime, the conclusion drawn from
Watergate, does not seem to have been learned by the IRS or whoever directed
it to make the claim late Friday that emails from Lois Lerner to outside
agencies (including most notably the White House) were lost in a computer
"crash." That claim is risible according to various experts.
Jason Howerton of The Blaze interviewed veteran IT expert Norman Cillo, "an
Army veteran who worked in intelligence and a former program manager at
Microsoft," who laid out six reasons, complete with charts, why he believes
Today's newscast brings reports they lost much more than they thought
when that ladies' personal computer crashed. Oh, yeah, one PC dies and
that cripples a network. Why do I have trouble believing that?
The cover up is expanding. Impound the drives and backup tapes now.
Why the FBI didn't raid their offices with a warrant to get the data
months ago is a mystery. Had it been a guitar manufacturer buying wood
from international suppliers then the FBI would be there with a SWAT
team to break down the doors and take all the computers and hard drives
and back up systems.
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