Discussion:
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
(too old to reply)
mad amoeba
2003-07-10 04:57:49 UTC
Permalink
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html

Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Copyright 1998,1999 Bob Johnson, ***@afn.org



Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.


"The Right of the People"
Unfortunately, there are some who still take them seriously, and it is no
laughing matter. Are we to believe that "the right of the people peaceably
to assemble" in the First Amendment refers to individuals; that "the right
of the people to be secure ... against unreasonable searches and seizures"
in the Fourth Amendment refers to individuals; that "the people" in the
Ninth and Tenth Amendments are individuals; but "the right of the people" in
the Second Amendment refers to State governments? Ridiculous!
When the U.S. Senate approved the amendment, it voted down a proposal to add
the words "for the common defense" [ref. 1]. Clearly, the U.S. Senate
didn't intend the Second Amendment to refer to a collective right. Legal
scholars of the early nineteenth century; men who had personally witnessed
passage of the Second Amendment, agreed that neither Federal nor State
governments could restrict in any way the individual right to carry weapons
for self defense [ref 2].
In 1846, the Georgia Supreme Court overturned a state law banning sales of
small handguns because it violated the U.S. Constitution [Nunn v. State, 1
Ga. (1 Kel.) 243, at 251 (1846)]. Why were there no similar rulings from the
U.S. Supreme Court? Because there was such unanimous agreement about the
meaning of the Second Amendment that Congress never bothered to pass
anti-gun legislation. Almost a century later, when Congress passed the
National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, it still
didn't attempt to make any guns illegal because it was agreed that would be
unconstitutional. Instead, Congress created a tax on machine guns and
sawed-off shotguns. That's why the BATF is part of the Department of the
Treasury: they are tax collectors, their job is to collect the Federal
Excise Taxes on alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. When they arrest someone
for illegal possession of a sawed-off shotgun, for example, they are
arresting them for failing to pay the required $200 tax. Even the U.S.
Supreme Court, in 1990 [United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265
(1990)], pointed out that "The Second Amendment protects the right of the
people to keep and bear Arms ...." when it was explaining what individual
rights were mentioned in the Constitution. Are you going to argue with the
Supreme Court?

"A Well Regulated Militia"
Why does the Second Amendment refer to "A well regulated militia..."?
Because "militia" doesn't mean "a group of armed men". A "militia" is a
group of people who can be drafted into public (usually military) service,
which basically means "everybody". That's why, in debates leading to
passage of the Second Amendment, you see such terms as "armed militia",
"special militia", or "organized militia": they were terms that described
particular subsets of the general militia [ref. 3].
The term "well regulated", in the eighteenth century didn't mean "limited by
a lot of regulations", which is how it sounds to modern ears. It meant
about what we mean now when we say "well trained", but in a sense that
applies to machinery as well as people ("functioning in an orderly manner"
is probably a good modern equivalent). We still use this meaning when we
refer, for example, to a "regulated power supply" for our electronic
equipment. To ensure that the militia was "well regulated", the Second
Congress passed a law that required almost all male citizens to own a gun
and ammunition, and be trained in their use. That law was still in force in
the early part of the twentieth century.

"A Free State"
We also find in the Second Amendment the phrase "the security of a free
state". A "free state" is one in which the citizens are free, not one in
which the government is free to do whatever it wants (we call that a
"totalitarian state"). But freedom is not only limited by the actions of
government; it can also be limited by individuals. The men who drafted, and
enacted, the Second Amendment understood something very fundamental: there
is no freedom in a society where citizens must barricade themselves in their
homes from fear of criminals. If you aren't free to come and go when you
please, you don't live in a "free state".
Although there is much argument about armed citizens overthrowing a
tyrannical government, even Thomas Jefferson pointed out that this was "the
last resort". The day-to-day reason for bearing arms is seen in Jefferson's
frequent urging that responsible citizens should carry arms for defense
against criminals. And make no mistake: when honest citizens carry guns,
crime rates do go down. In the "wild west", crime and homicide rates were a
small fraction of what they are today. The "shoot out at the OK corral"
became famous overnight because of its ferocity: three men killed in a
single day! Jesse James and his men finally met their match in Minnesota
when (for the first time in their bank robbing career) local citizens drew
their guns and shot back when they robbed the town bank.

Put Them Together...
You don't need to add more conjunctions, and you don't have to call on
obscure rules of grammar. To understand the Second Amendment you just need
to understand the individual words and string them together:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
That's it. It means what it says. It's a short, concise way to say "Because
our citizens can't be free if they can't defend themselves from criminals,
from foreign terrorists, and perhaps from out-of-control government agents,
the right of every individual to own weapons, and to carry them for self
defense, shall not be infringed." If you wish that weren't what it meant,
don't lie about what it says. Be honest and start campaigning for a new
amendment.




References not directly linked in the main text:
1. The Right To Keep And Bear Arms, Report of the Subcommittee on the
Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate,
Ninety-Seventh Congress; Preface, 4th paragraph after opening quotations.
An ASCII version is also available.
2. ibid.; 5th Paragraph
3. A "militia", as explained above, is a group of people who are eligible
to be called to military service (or other service). Since Congress and the
President can pass a law in just a few days and make anyone subject to the
draft, we are all, for practical purposes, members of the militia. An
"armed militia" is a group of armed people. A "special militia" is a group
trained and organized by the government for military service, not part of
the full-time military, but with a special legal status like the modern
National Guard. An "organized militia" is a group of people organized for
military service, but not part of the regular military. It is usually
synonymous with "special militia", and is used that way in the current U.S.
law defining the militia. Most press reports using the word "militia" are
referring to a "private militia", which is a group of people who have
pledged service to an individual's private army. Since private militias
were quite common in the early days of the country, the word "militia" had a
connotation that was much more clearly divorced from definitions created by
Congress and the courts than it is now. Since virtually anyone could
volunteer to join someone's private army, or to defend the town, everyone
was a member of the general militia. Most states have always regulated or
prohibited private militias. No legal scholar that I know of has ever
claimed that the Second Amendment protects a right to organize private
armies. Despite what you sometimes hear from gun control zealots, the NRA
has never made that claim, either.
General Acknowledgement: Those from whom I first learned these concepts
deserve credit, but in most cases I don't remember who they are. Without
intending to slight others, I want to thank Clayton E. Cramer, David B.
Kopel, and Stephen P. Halbrook, whose writings stand out as pivotal in the
development of my personal understanding of the Second Amendment.



Back to Bob's Political Page
Back to Bob's Home Page
Published 4 June 1998. Minor edits 12 June 1998. Improved modern
equivalent of "well regulated" and added general acknowledgement 23 March
1999.
Perry Noid
2003-07-10 07:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad amoeba
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Is there any word of this they haven't tried to reinterpret or even
redefine? If they read this like some other rights, the Government would
be required to provide each citizen with a fully automatic assault
weapon :oP
Noah Simoneaux
2003-07-10 17:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Perry Noid
Post by mad amoeba
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Is there any word of this they haven't tried to reinterpret or even
redefine? If they read this like some other rights, the Government would
be required to provide each citizen with a fully automatic assault
weapon :oP
I have to laugh at the gun-grabbers when they quote the 2nd Amendment. When THEY
quote it, it seems to stop after "A well-regulated militia". ;)

Anyone who thinks there is some good in everyone hasn't interviewed enough people.

Eastman's Personnel Director's Law
Steve Krulick
2003-07-10 18:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Noah Simoneaux
Post by Perry Noid
Post by mad amoeba
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Is there any word of this they haven't tried to reinterpret or even
redefine? If they read this like some other rights, the Government would
be required to provide each citizen with a fully automatic assault
weapon :oP
I have to laugh at the gun-grabbers when they quote the 2nd Amendment. When THEY
quote it, it seems to stop after "A well-regulated militia". ;)
As opposed to the hoplophiles, I suppose, who only keep seeming
to leave off the first half! Go ahead, look at the inscription
over the NRA HQ doors! I have to shake my head over the hubris
and ignorance that represents!

Thanks for that useless tidbit of nonsense straw generalization.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 17:46:11 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Steve Krulick
As opposed to the hoplophiles, I suppose, who only keep seeming
to leave off the first half!
I suppose you must be supposing wrong, or maybe you're just hanging out with a
"select" crew of hoplophiles. All the hoplophiles I know, when quoting the 2nd
Amendment, quote the WHOLE thing.
Did I say "ALL" hoplophiles? Go ahead, look at the above line
with a magnifying glass!

No, I spoke of THE hoplophiles who DO leave off the first half!

But I think you are being disingenuous; of course, when someone
QUOTES the 2nd Amen, they will probably cite it all. But think
of all the times you only see someone abbreviate "RKBA" or refer
to the Amen and just don't bother to mention the first part or a
well regulated militia in context.

Anyway, YOUR anecdotal claim can't be proven.
Post by Steve Krulick
Go ahead, look at the inscription
over the NRA HQ doors! I have to shake my head over the hubris
and ignorance that represents!
Keep shaking your head, but while doing that try to remember that even the NRA
does NOT represent ALL gun owners. Speaking of logic flaws.
Didn't say it did, strawslinger. Since I NEVER said ALL
hoplophiles or ALL gunowners anywhere, that's just your
strawman. But they sure represent MANY of them, and would
probably like to claim they speak for ALL of them. But keep
missing the point, strawslinger.
Post by Steve Krulick
Thanks for that useless tidbit of nonsense straw generalization.
Thanks for nothing.
Since you probably learned nothing from my pointing it out, you
are likely correct.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Gunner
2003-07-12 04:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
Thanks for that useless tidbit of nonsense straw generalization.
Thanks for nothing.
Since you probably learned nothing from my pointing it out, you
are likely correct.
Still waiting.....


Lets see you do an analysis of this:

Amendment I

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Amendment IV

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

and finally:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
Noah Simoneaux
2003-07-12 05:07:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:46:11 GMT, Steve Krulick <***@krulick.com> wrote:

(snip)
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
As opposed to the hoplophiles, I suppose, who only keep seeming
to leave off the first half!
The hoplophiles? Not SOME hoplophiles. Not MANY hoplophiles. Not FEW
hoplophiles. THE hoplophiles.
Post by Steve Krulick
I suppose you must be supposing wrong, or maybe you're just hanging out with a
"select" crew of hoplophiles. All the hoplophiles I know, when quoting the 2nd
Amendment, quote the WHOLE thing.
Did I say "ALL" hoplophiles? Go ahead, look at the above line
with a magnifying glass!
No need to. It's still there. You said THE hoplophiles. English isn't your
second language, is it?
So, was there some LOGICAL reason for bringing up the group who only quotes the
half they prefer, or was that just a tidbit of conversation you felt like
tossing out? You can go ahead and get to your point, IF you have one.
Post by Steve Krulick
No, I spoke of THE hoplophiles who DO leave off the first half!
And totally avoided the question of the hoplophobes who leave off the second
part. Anyway, neither of those groups are very important to me, since I'm not a
member of either group.
Post by Steve Krulick
But I think you are being disingenuous; of course, when someone
QUOTES the 2nd Amen, they will probably cite it all. But think
of all the times you only see someone abbreviate "RKBA" or refer
to the Amen and just don't bother to mention the first part or a
well regulated militia in context.
In which context. Things have MANY contexts.
BTW, does that mean you see something sinister EVERY time someone uses an
abbreviation? RKBA refers to the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't refer
to the full text of the 2nd Amendment.
Post by Steve Krulick
Anyway, YOUR anecdotal claim can't be proven.
Don't need it proven. I witness it.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
Go ahead, look at the inscription
over the NRA HQ doors! I have to shake my head over the hubris
and ignorance that represents!
Keep shaking your head, but while doing that try to remember that even the NRA
does NOT represent ALL gun owners. Speaking of logic flaws.
Didn't say it did, strawslinger.
Somebody stumble on a logic textbook recently? Not EVERY argument is a strawman
fallacy.
If you want to communicate with people, it usually helps to say things clearly.
I know some people enjoy implying and using innuendo, but they don't do much for
communications.
Post by Steve Krulick
Since I NEVER said ALL hoplophiles or ALL gunowners anywhere, that's just your
strawman.
No, and you weren't trying to IMPLY that either, were you?
Post by Steve Krulick
But they sure represent MANY of them, and would probably like to claim they speak for ALL of them.
So? What difference does it make what they CLAIM? Who's tossing around straw men
now? Do these little smoke screens usually work for you?
Post by Steve Krulick
But keep missing the point, strawslinger.
Keep trying to make points by insinuations and implications and people will
continue to miss them. If you have something to say, say it. Mean what you say
and say what you mean. Makes communication MUCH simpler.

(snip)
Post by Steve Krulick
Since you probably learned nothing from my pointing it out, you
are likely correct.
Learning is only possible when new information is present. Since you haven't
presented any, learning isn't possible.
Anyone who thinks there is some good in everyone hasn't interviewed enough people.

Eastman's Personnel Director's Law
Ken Maltby
2003-07-13 01:28:03 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
As opposed to the hoplophiles, I suppose, who only keep seeming
to leave off the first half!
The hoplophiles? Not SOME hoplophiles. Not MANY hoplophiles. Not FEW
hoplophiles. THE hoplophiles.
Post by Steve Krulick
I suppose you must be supposing wrong, or maybe you're just hanging out with a
"select" crew of hoplophiles. All the hoplophiles I know, when quoting the 2nd
Amendment, quote the WHOLE thing.
Did I say "ALL" hoplophiles? Go ahead, look at the above line
with a magnifying glass!
No need to. It's still there. You said THE hoplophiles. English isn't your
second language, is it?
So, was there some LOGICAL reason for bringing up the group who only quotes the
half they prefer, or was that just a tidbit of conversation you felt like
tossing out? You can go ahead and get to your point, IF you have one.
Post by Steve Krulick
No, I spoke of THE hoplophiles who DO leave off the first half!
And totally avoided the question of the hoplophobes who leave off the second
part. Anyway, neither of those groups are very important to me, since I'm not a
member of either group.
Post by Steve Krulick
But I think you are being disingenuous; of course, when someone
QUOTES the 2nd Amen, they will probably cite it all. But think
of all the times you only see someone abbreviate "RKBA" or refer
to the Amen and just don't bother to mention the first part or a
well regulated militia in context.
In which context. Things have MANY contexts.
BTW, does that mean you see something sinister EVERY time someone uses an
abbreviation? RKBA refers to the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't refer
to the full text of the 2nd Amendment.
Post by Steve Krulick
Anyway, YOUR anecdotal claim can't be proven.
Don't need it proven. I witness it.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
Go ahead, look at the inscription
over the NRA HQ doors! I have to shake my head over the hubris
and ignorance that represents!
Keep shaking your head, but while doing that try to remember that even the NRA
does NOT represent ALL gun owners. Speaking of logic flaws.
Didn't say it did, strawslinger.
Somebody stumble on a logic textbook recently? Not EVERY argument is a strawman
fallacy.
If you want to communicate with people, it usually helps to say things clearly.
I know some people enjoy implying and using innuendo, but they don't do much for
communications.
Post by Steve Krulick
Since I NEVER said ALL hoplophiles or ALL gunowners anywhere, that's just your
strawman.
No, and you weren't trying to IMPLY that either, were you?
Post by Steve Krulick
But they sure represent MANY of them, and would probably like to claim
they speak for ALL of them.
So? What difference does it make what they CLAIM? Who's tossing around straw men
now? Do these little smoke screens usually work for you?
Post by Steve Krulick
But keep missing the point, strawslinger.
Keep trying to make points by insinuations and implications and people will
continue to miss them. If you have something to say, say it. Mean what you say
and say what you mean. Makes communication MUCH simpler.
(snip)
Post by Steve Krulick
Since you probably learned nothing from my pointing it out, you
are likely correct.
Learning is only possible when new information is present. Since you haven't
presented any, learning isn't possible.
Anyone who thinks there is some good in everyone hasn't interviewed enough people.
Eastman's Personnel Director's Law
I think this can be easily understood as the classic example of liberal
dyslexia,
just as they can't see-hear-or remember the first part of the President's
reference
to a British source saying that Saddam was trying to buy uranium from
Africa;
they would rather belive the second half of the Second Amendment never
existed.

Of course if they must admit it is there, then it must be explained
away.

I await what nifty new put down this post generates from the superior
intellect of
the left; (pls try and use more than four letters but something less than
52KB)

LOL;
Ken
Gunner
2003-07-12 04:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Noah Simoneaux
Post by Perry Noid
Post by mad amoeba
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Is there any word of this they haven't tried to reinterpret or even
redefine? If they read this like some other rights, the Government would
be required to provide each citizen with a fully automatic assault
weapon :oP
I have to laugh at the gun-grabbers when they quote the 2nd Amendment. When THEY
quote it, it seems to stop after "A well-regulated militia". ;)
As opposed to the hoplophiles, I suppose, who only keep seeming
to leave off the first half! Go ahead, look at the inscription
over the NRA HQ doors! I have to shake my head over the hubris
and ignorance that represents!
Thanks for that useless tidbit of nonsense straw generalization.
Still waiting.....


Lets see you do an analysis of this:

Amendment I

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Amendment IV

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

and finally:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
James Mayer
2003-07-11 04:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Perry Noid
Post by mad amoeba
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Is there any word of this they haven't tried to reinterpret
Who is "THEY"?
You are part of "they" Steve.
And on what do you base your blatant assertion of your
unsubstantiated opinion regarding 'reinterpretation'?
Garry Wills having to translate the parts of the Second Amendment
int Latin so that he can declare that "bear arms" is only a military
term.
I can present detailed backing for what EVERY relevant word
means.
From the intentional misinterpretation by the gun control lobby
and obviously defective court cases.


What do you have, other than your misinformed beliefs and
whatever hoplophile bilge you swallow?
Post by Perry Noid
or even
redefine?
The definitions are based on how the words were used in
comparable usage THEN, not what YOU think the words mean today.
There are many of us here that have read your mental masturbations
that attempt to reinterpret the meanings of words to fit your blatent
assertions.
Post by Perry Noid
If they read this like some other rights, the Government would
be required to provide each citizen with a fully automatic assault
weapon :oP
No, strawslinger.
Yes they would.
Come back when you have something of value to impart.
All you have is the same old beaten strawman to present for even
more of a beating.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 04:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Mayer
All you have is the same old beaten strawman to present for even
more of a beating.
I wondered when Mayerloon would chime in! He's the "Godwin's
Law" touchstone of MY posting!

Mayerloon LIVES to play Monty Python Argument Sketch gainsaying
with my posts, though I only see them as cites in other persons'
posts. He makes blatant assertions, silly straw non sequitors,
and various ad homs, and NEVER refutes anything I say, except in
his own febrile mind, though he claims victory each time on
nothing more than his unsubstantiated sayso.

Well, that means it's time to take a break and get back to my
political campaign and publishing work.
What matters is whether firearm owing citizens believe their rights are
protected by the Second Amendment.
No, as they are not the constitutional arbiter of who IS the
Constitutional arbiter!

They can believe their rights were delivered from a golden
flaming chariot, and that wouldn't make such beliefs so.
The Second Amendment does not grant
anyone the right to keep and bear arms.
Hell, even the SCotUS in Presser said that in the 19th Century!
It's wording only states that
the federal government may not infring on those rights.
Yep, just as Presser says! Only if YOU don't know what the
rights referred to ARE, and what the militia is, and what well
regulated means, and what the term of art THE PEOPLE means, or
the term of art KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, and both in 18th Century
understanding, and what the courts have determined "infringed"
means, it might as well be written in Chinese for you to be
prattling on about it with no understanding!
Unfortuantely
the Constitution provides no penalty if the federal government does
violate those rights.
Give one example in over two hundred years now where the fed
govt has violated the 2nd Amen! The purpose of the 2nd Amen, as
understood by Mason, Henry, Madison, Jefferson, and others who
proposed it, was to make sure the fed govt did NOTHING to weaken
or destroy the state militias by failing to arm them as required
by the Const or otherwise interfering with the states' ability
to democratically organize, preserve, and have primary control
over their pre-existing militias.
That is left up to the armed citizens who may vote
No, ALL enfranchised citizens elect the state reps who make
those decisions, armed or not.
or shoot as required to protect their rights.
That would be considered insurrection and rebellion, which the
govt has the authority to put down WITH the well regulated
militia whose purpose is thusly spelled out IN the Const.
What the courts or legal
scholars have to say on the subject means very little.
Only in a republic or laws they do, agitator. Your armed
populace fantasy is one step short of anarchy.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Don
2003-07-11 22:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Perry Noid
Post by mad amoeba
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Is there any word of this they haven't tried to reinterpret
Who is "THEY"?
And on what do you base your blatant assertion of your
unsubstantiated opinion regarding 'reinterpretation'?
You for one.
<Rest of the hoplophobe bilge snipped.>
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects,
Oh, they didn't mean "people" when they wrote PEOPLE. They meant something
else.
That's why they used the word people, then talk about their PERSONS, their
HOUSES, their PAPERS, their EFFECTS. You see, people don't have persons,
houses,
papers, effects. Only states have those things. ;)
I read some stuff on a website a couple years ago where the courts have done
things to change the *definition* of certain words, specifically "sovereign,
people, person" and some others that have slipped my mind. From what I
remember this had to with the subversion of individual property rights and
the right of the gov't to place all kinds of restrictions (taxes, fees,
licenses, easements, setbacks, etc.) on real and personal property. Now that
I'm thinking about it again, it may be time for a google search on this
topic.
OMEGA
2003-07-10 12:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Robert Frenchu
2003-07-10 13:37:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700, OMEGA
Post by OMEGA
1. Lie
You have that down, Greggy.
Post by OMEGA
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
Ditto
Post by OMEGA
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
Your pal Erron is helping with that
Post by OMEGA
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
How very true

_____
"What was Robert Frenchu's address that you posted?"
- Greg Dean (N9NWO) in a 7/5/2002 letter mistakenly emailed to
Dr. Jose Mariachi instead of "'Dr.' Jai Maharaj"
Bart Bailey
2003-07-10 14:52:16 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700, OMEGA
Post by OMEGA
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Sounds exactly how the right behaves.

Bart
Myal
2003-07-10 15:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Frenchu
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700, OMEGA
Post by OMEGA
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Sounds exactly how the right behaves.
Bart
Does this mean that politicians arent always honnest with us ?
OH NO Woe is me !!
What next ? the tax cuts dont mean we get more money like they said we would
?
Myal
Jeffrey C. Dege
2003-07-10 19:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Myal
Post by Robert Frenchu
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700, OMEGA
Post by OMEGA
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Sounds exactly how the right behaves.
Does this mean that politicians arent always honnest with us ?
OH NO Woe is me !!
The problem is the Left thinks that if they could only put the right
people in charge, the government could solve all the world's problems.

The Right knows that there are no "right people".
--
Many of those who profess the most individualistic objectives support
collectivist means without recognizing the contradiction. It is tempting
to believe that social evils arise from the activities of evil men
and that if only good men (like ourselves, naturally) wielded power,
all would be well. That view requires only emotion and self-praise -
easy to come by and satisfying as well. To understand why it is that
'good' men in positions of power will produce evil, while the ordinary
man without power but able to engage in voluntary cooperation with his
neighbors will produce good, requires analysis and thought. Surely that
is the answer to the perennial mystery of why collectivism, with its
demonstrated record of producing tyranny and misery, is so widely regarded
as superior to individualism, with its demonstrated record of producing
freedom and plenty. The argument for collectivism is simple if false;
it is an immediate emotional argument. The argument for individualism
is subtle and sophisticated; it is an indirect rational argument.
And the emotional facilities are more highly developed in most men
than the rational, paradoxically or especially even in those who regard
themselves as intellectuals.
- Milton Friedman's introduction to F. A. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom"
Maximo Lachman
2003-07-10 19:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey C. Dege
The Right knows that there are no "right people".
Libertarians however don't, and prefer to lie about themselves.
Post by Jeffrey C. Dege
Many of those who profess the most individualistic objectives support
collectivist means without recognizing the contradiction. It is tempting
Which is the truth about libertarians.
Post by Jeffrey C. Dege
to believe that social evils arise from the activities of evil men
and that if only good corporations (like in our IRAs) wielded power,
all would be well. That view requires only emotion and greed -
easy to come by and satisfying as well. To understand why it is that
'good' men in positions of power will produce evil, while the ordinary
man without power but able to engage in voluntary cooperation with his
neighbors will produce good, requires analysis and thought. Surely that
is the answer to the perennial mystery of why laisser-faire-ism, with its
demonstrated record of producing tyranny and misery, is so widely regarded
as superior to dialetic materialism, with its demonstrated record of
freedom and plenty. The argument for laisser-faire-ism is simple if false;
it is an immediate emotional argument. The argument for dialectic mater-
ialism is subtle and sophisticated; it is an indirect rational argument.
And the emotional facilities are more highly developed in most men
than the rational, paradoxically or especially even in those who regard
themselves as intellectuals.
- Milton Friedman's introduction to F. A. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom"
Gunner
2003-07-10 16:08:44 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700, OMEGA
Post by OMEGA
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Can I use that as a sig? Its perfect!

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
Steve Krulick
2003-07-10 16:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by OMEGA
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.

NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!

THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language; IF you don't know what the terms mean, they
may as well be in Chinese!

So, as the Bouvier Law Dictionary, THE 19th Century authority on
the subject of the MEANING of the TERMS used in the Const
stated:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

BODY POLITIC:
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.

CITIZEN:
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.

3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")

So in the most narrow sense, "Citizen" is equal to "Freeman" and
the same class that defined "The People," that is, the
enfranchised voter. In the larger sense, it includes women and
kids, but not blacks or indians. Not until the Civil War was
this expanded.

Are they individuals? YES, but only in the context that DEALS
with them in their individual capacity.

So, THE PEOPLE CLASS is composed of FREEMEN which at any given
time is the enfranchised voter, "One who, under the constitution
and laws of the United States, has a right to vote for
representatives in congress, and other public officers, and who
is qualified to fill offices in the gift of the people." But
that still doesn't mean that a right of the CLASS is
automatically distributive to each component member.


So setting up a strawman to knock down is hardly a victory. That
they ignore the FACTS of what the terms THE PEOPLE and KEEP AND
BEAR ARMS actually meant to the authors of the Const has been
thoroughly shown to be their modus and they've ignored it
because they CAN'T refute it.
Post by OMEGA
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Good description of hoplophile disingenuousness! Rarely has ONE
group been guilty of posting more bogus hoaxes, misquotes,
out-of-context straw, and irrelevant minutiae to bolster their
untenable position than the hoplophile gang.

1 and 2 was when NRA hacks like Stephen Halbrook spammed law
reviews with bogus cites and straw, twisting the original
meanings of ALL the terms in the 2nd Amen. 3 was when clone
clown pseudoscholars like Reynolds, Kopel, Malcomm, and the same
lame handful single-handedly created a cottage industry of
recycling the same bogus material in more un-peer reviewed law
journals. 4 was when the NRA posted and distributed the nonsense
at great expense to members, who spammed newspapers and
legislatures with the BS. 5 and 6 was taken care of in the 60s
when an NRA-backed movement to change state constitutions to
confuse what Madison meant by "bear arms" into an inclusive
umbrella that confused the original term in person's minds to
suggest Madison meant ANY purpose of "carrying guns" including
hunting or target practice!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Offbreed
2003-07-10 17:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
Ever hear of "lie" or "perjury"?
Maximo Lachman
2003-07-10 18:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
Similarly, being a 'native' does not make you a 'natural born citizen'
which traditionally referred to one's natural parents being citizens, and
in chauvinist countires like Switzerland referred to one's natural father
as having been a citizen. Indeed, the use of 'natural born' in the
Constitution wouldn't make sense if it had the meaning of 'native'. Thus,
as citizenship is inheritable by blood, so is the right to hold the
office of president (as demonstrated so ably by Bubya).
Post by Steve Krulick
So in the most narrow sense, "Citizen" is equal to "Freeman" and
the same class that defined "The People," that is, the
enfranchised voter. In the larger sense, it includes women and
kids, but not blacks or indians. Not until the Civil War was
this expanded.
You mean in the ordinary sense that: All citizens are freemen.
Not all freemen are citizens, but they still have all natural
rights of 'the People'. They don't have the rights of artificial
classes, such as citizens: Voting isn't a natural right, it's a civil
Post by Steve Krulick
So, THE PEOPLE CLASS is composed of FREEMEN which at any given
time is the enfranchised voter, "One who, under the constitution
and laws of the United States, has a right to vote for
representatives in congress, and other public officers, and who
is qualified to fill offices in the gift of the people." But
that still doesn't mean that a right of the CLASS is
automatically distributive to each component member.
Jeff Strickland
2003-07-10 19:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
After the 14th Amendment, the "class" of citizens was enlarged to include
those that were excluded before. This argument is bogus and completely
irrelevent.

What the hell are you talking about when you say "All natives are not
citizens of the United States; the descendants of the aborigines, and those
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of citizens." Why do you
repeatedly post things that no longer are true to support your lunatic
positions?

The 2nd had limitations when originally written because all persons were not
considered citizens, but passage of the 14th brought those that were
excluded from the designation of citizen into the group, where they
rightfully belonged.

So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to as many
people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
includes all of the people. The class of The People has grown, not shrunk.
Maximo Lachman
2003-07-10 20:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
The 2nd had limitations when originally written because all persons were
not considered citizens, but passage of the 14th brought those that were
excluded from the designation of citizen into the group,
such as juristic persons like corporations. So now it is not possible to deny
corporate citizens such rights, (incl. the 9th Am.) nor any of the privileges
or immunities of citizens. I'm not saying that this interpretation is right,
just that your courts have made such rulings (the citations of which elude
me; hopefully others will post them - it would be interesting to read the
dissenting opinions on them).
Post by Jeff Strickland
So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to as many
people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
includes all of the people. The class of The People has grown, not shrunk.
True, but mainly for the reason given above. Black slaves had been property,
and not a class of people under the law, so the 14th did not 'include' them
as a pre-existing class. And prior to the 14th, part of the People weren't
excluded on grounds of servitude, since slaves weren't part of the People,
but were the property of the People. It is a fallacious argument to say
that because the number of people w/in The People increased, that the legal
definition of The People had grown.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-10 21:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
The 2nd had limitations when originally written because all persons were
not considered citizens, but passage of the 14th brought those that were
excluded from the designation of citizen into the group,
such as juristic persons like corporations. So now it is not possible to deny
corporate citizens such rights, (incl. the 9th Am.) nor any of the privileges
or immunities of citizens. I'm not saying that this interpretation is right,
just that your courts have made such rulings (the citations of which elude
me; hopefully others will post them - it would be interesting to read the
dissenting opinions on them).
Nope, and more proof that THE PEOPLE is NOT about "persons,"
natural or juristic. Corporations, being synthetic "persons"
can't vote, and, as they are not part of the collective
"enfranchised body politic of the nation in its political
capacity" (Bouvier Law Dictionary), they have no relevance to
the 2nd Amen or any other right of THE PEOPLE, properly
interpreted.
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to as many
people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
includes all of the people. The class of The People has grown, not shrunk.
True, but mainly for the reason given above. Black slaves had been property,
and not a class of people under the law, so the 14th did not 'include' them
as a pre-existing class. And prior to the 14th, part of the People weren't
excluded on grounds of servitude, since slaves weren't part of the People,
but were the property of the People. It is a fallacious argument to say
that because the number of people w/in The People increased, that the legal
definition of The People had grown.
Basically correct, en fin, except that should be "the number of
PERSONS who comprise THE PEOPLE CLASS has increased" but the
term THE PEOPLE has the same legal meaning, the enfranchised
body politic in its political capacity.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
James Mayer
2003-07-11 04:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
The 2nd had limitations when originally written because all persons were
not considered citizens, but passage of the 14th brought those that were
excluded from the designation of citizen into the group,
such as juristic persons like corporations. So now it is not possible to deny
corporate citizens such rights, (incl. the 9th Am.) nor any of the privileges
or immunities of citizens. I'm not saying that this interpretation is right,
just that your courts have made such rulings (the citations of which elude
me; hopefully others will post them - it would be interesting to read the
dissenting opinions on them).
Nope, and more proof that THE PEOPLE is NOT about "persons,"
natural or juristic. Corporations, being synthetic "persons"
can't vote, and, as they are not part of the collective
"enfranchised body politic of the nation in its political
capacity" (Bouvier Law Dictionary), they have no relevance to
the 2nd Amen or any other right of THE PEOPLE, properly
interpreted.
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to as many
people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
includes all of the people. The class of The People has grown, not shrunk.
True, but mainly for the reason given above. Black slaves had been property,
and not a class of people under the law, so the 14th did not 'include' them
as a pre-existing class. And prior to the 14th, part of the People weren't
excluded on grounds of servitude, since slaves weren't part of the People,
but were the property of the People. It is a fallacious argument to say
that because the number of people w/in The People increased, that the legal
definition of The People had grown.
Basically correct, en fin, except that should be "the number of
PERSONS who comprise THE PEOPLE CLASS has increased" but the
term THE PEOPLE has the same legal meaning, the enfranchised
body politic in its political capacity.
So, "the people"can be only a collective. Why are the people
that live in my house a collective when I am the only one living here?
Am I, a person, a collective? What is the smallest unit of a
collective, Steve? Is "the people" ALWAYS a political body?



"The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and
boys, and
not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not
such only as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed,
curtailed
or broken in upon, in the smallest degree;...any law, State or
Federal,
is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this
right..."
Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. (1 Kel.) 243 (1846)

"The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defence of himself or
the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State
government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the
citizen, and 'is excepted out of the general powers of government.' A
law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, because it is
above
the law, and independent of the law-making power."
Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394 (1859).


Notice it says A CITIZEN, an individual, not some nefarious
collective.
strabo
2003-07-11 23:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
The 2nd had limitations when originally written because all persons were
not considered citizens, but passage of the 14th brought those that were
excluded from the designation of citizen into the group,
such as juristic persons like corporations. So now it is not possible to deny
corporate citizens such rights, (incl. the 9th Am.) nor any of the privileges
or immunities of citizens. I'm not saying that this interpretation is right,
just that your courts have made such rulings (the citations of which elude
me; hopefully others will post them - it would be interesting to read the
dissenting opinions on them).
Nope, and more proof that THE PEOPLE is NOT about "persons,"
natural or juristic. Corporations, being synthetic "persons"
can't vote, and, as they are not part of the collective
"enfranchised body politic of the nation in its political
capacity" (Bouvier Law Dictionary), they have no relevance to
the 2nd Amen or any other right of THE PEOPLE, properly
interpreted.
You might confuse the issue by citing corporations. There were
none in the US at that time.

The key is in Bouvier's condition of "political capacity",
which is an awkward way of describing the accumulative
effects of the vote.

Two non-political collections of individuals are the jury and the
militia. Both operate without statutory or political restraints.

Natural Rights are ONLY about individuals. The enumerated
Rights are ONLY about individuals. The reference to "the people"
is simply the group of individuals that might form a
militia.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to as many
people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
includes all of the people. The class of The People has grown, not shrunk.
True, but mainly for the reason given above. Black slaves had been property,
and not a class of people under the law, so the 14th did not 'include' them
as a pre-existing class. And prior to the 14th, part of the People weren't
excluded on grounds of servitude, since slaves weren't part of the People,
but were the property of the People. It is a fallacious argument to say
that because the number of people w/in The People increased, that the legal
definition of The People had grown.
Basically correct, en fin, except that should be "the number of
PERSONS who comprise THE PEOPLE CLASS has increased" but the
term THE PEOPLE has the same legal meaning, the enfranchised
body politic in its political capacity.
Dana
2003-07-12 16:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Nope, and more proof that THE PEOPLE is NOT about "persons,"
natural or juristic. Corporations, being synthetic "persons"
can't vote, and, as they are not part of the collective
"enfranchised body politic of the nation in its political
capacity" (Bouvier Law Dictionary), they have no relevance to
the 2nd Amen or any other right of THE PEOPLE, properly
interpreted.
Says who?
And when did they say it?
DY: Since SK cites the Bouvier Law Dictionary so much in discussions
about
the Second Amendment, we might also ask, what does it say about the Bill
of
Rights?
Why not stick to what it DOES say that I've posted,
side-stepper. Care to refute what I DID post?
Your misguided opinions have been refuted many times already.
Give it up, you lose this same debate every year.
RD (Sandman)
2003-07-10 22:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Jeff Strickland
So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to
as many people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms includes all of the people. The class of The
People has grown, not shrunk.
True, but mainly for the reason given above. Black slaves had been
property, and not a class of people under the law, so the 14th did not
'include' them as a pre-existing class. And prior to the 14th, part of
the People weren't excluded on grounds of servitude, since slaves
weren't part of the People, but were the property of the People. It is
a fallacious argument to say that because the number of people w/in
The People increased, that the legal definition of The People had
grown.
The purpose of the Reconstruction Amendments WAS to include those who had
been enslaved.

The Thirteenth freed them so that they were no longer slaves or property.
The major problem here, however, was too many tried to evade the mandate of
the amendment via "apprenticeship" agreements (see In re Turner, 1867).


The Fourteenth essentially made them citizens and gave them the same
constitutional protections and immunities that the rest of the citizens
had. It made all persons in the United States citizens and provided that no
state should abridge the "privileges or immunities of citizens or deny them
due process or equal protection to any person.
--
Sleep well tonight.........

RD (The Sandman)

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rdsandman

The largest gap between liberals and conservatives is the blank space
between the First and Second Amendments to the US Constitution.

Peter McWilliams
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 16:50:57 UTC
Permalink
<SNIP>
Post by Jeff Strickland
What the hell are you talking about when you say "All natives are not
citizens of the United States; the descendants of the aborigines, and those
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of citizens."
*I'M* not talking about this, Jeffyloon; THAT's what the Bouvier
Law Dictionary described as being the LEGAL and POLITICAL
reality at the time of the Constitution's ratification and
onward until after the Civil War. THAT explains Dred Scott, and
why THE PEOPLE was never intended to MEAN EACH AND EVERY
INDIVIDUAL PERSON.
Really?
Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to keep and bear
Can you read? Or are you blind to your own bias?

YOU say it recognized the "right to keep and BEAR ARMS" as an
individual right.

I challenge you to find the term "keep and BEAR ARMS" below in
YOUR cite!

What it DOES say is "keep and CARRY arms" and THAT is a totally
different thing!

It's ignorant hoplophile muddle-headedness like this that
creates all the confusion.

CARRY ARMS is a literal description of personally having a gun
on one's person; BEAR ARMS is a figurative verb phrase ALWAYS
used in constitutional language pre-Civil War to mean ONLY "to
render military service."

What is said below confirms what I said from Bouvier; negroes
were NOT citizens pre-Civil War, hence NOT recognized as having
any of the rights of citizens, which was THEN equivalent to
enfranchised voters.

There were many laws that spoke of blacks specifically NOT being
able to "CARRY GUNS" or "CARRY ARMS" and that meant JUST that;
laws about "BEARING ARMS" ALWAYS referred to militia service.

Was the SCotUS confused about the terms? NO, because they
correctly referred to the Constitutional right in the ruling as
well:

"For example, no one, we presume, will contend that Congress can
make any law in a Territory respecting the establishment of
religion, or the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom
of speech or of the press, or the right of the people of the
Territory peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government
for the redress of grievances.

Nor can Congress deny to the people the right to keep and bear
arms, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a
witness against himself in a criminal proceeding."

To claim Scott is a "2nd Amen case" based on that snippet
referring to the obvious is bogus.
"It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized as
citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other
State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or
passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they
pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night
without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for
which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full
liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon
which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon
political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went."
David Hughes
Of course, Dred Scott is moot today, overturned by the Civil War
and the subsequent amendments to the constitution. But at the
time it was written, it DID accurately portray what the
constitution did indeed say about the inferior position blacks
held UNDER THE LAW.

However you make a glaring linguistic mistake: "keep and carry
arms" is NOT the same as "keep and BEAR arms"! One is a physical
act of possession and transport of guns, the other the militia
function of maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the equipage
of warfare, and serving, if qualified, in a well regulated
militia for the common defense. BIG difference. The Scott
decision is referring ONLY to the former in YOUR CITE, while it
also refers to the latter in MY cite.

For a scholarly discussion of the difference between "carry
arms" and "bear arms," particularly as it related to laws
regarding southern negroes, go to:

http://www.potomac-inc.org/emerappa.html, specifically
http://www.potomac-inc.org/emerappa.html#terms and thereafter:

Scott was not a 2nd Amen case, and only one reference to "bear
arms" confirms merely what the 2nd Amen says (and "bear arms"
means to serve in the militia); the later reference is to "carry
arms" which is NOT the same thing at all (you'll NEVER find an
ante-bellum reference to negroes "bearing arms" as they were
NEVER considered as militia-qualified; you will only find
references to negroes "carrying" arms or weapons WITH their
master's permission):

• 1715: "No negro or other slave … shall be permitted to carry
any gun, or any other offensive weapon, from off their master's
land, without license."

• 1740: "It shall not be lawful for any slave, unless in the
presence of some white person, to carry or make use of
fire-arms, or any offensive weapon whatsoever."

• 1750: Penalty for "any Negro or Mulatto slave ... to carry any
guns, swords, pistols, fowling-pieces, clubs, or other arms and
weapons whatsoever, without his master's special license."

WHY wasn't the term "bear arms" used in each of these cases, IF
the terms are identical? It's because THEY ARE NOT!

But thanks for playing!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
David E. Young
2003-07-12 01:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
<SNIP>
Post by Jeff Strickland
What the hell are you talking about when you say "All natives are not
citizens of the United States; the descendants of the aborigines, and those
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of citizens."
*I'M* not talking about this, Jeffyloon; THAT's what the Bouvier
Law Dictionary described as being the LEGAL and POLITICAL
reality at the time of the Constitution's ratification and
onward until after the Civil War. THAT explains Dred Scott, and
why THE PEOPLE was never intended to MEAN EACH AND EVERY
INDIVIDUAL PERSON.
Really?
Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to keep and bear
Can you read? Or are you blind to your own bias?
YOU say it recognized the "right to keep and BEAR ARMS" as an
individual right.
I challenge you to find the term "keep and BEAR ARMS" below in
YOUR cite!
What it DOES say is "keep and CARRY arms" and THAT is a totally
different thing!
It's ignorant hoplophile muddle-headedness like this that
creates all the confusion.
CARRY ARMS is a literal description of personally having a gun
on one's person; BEAR ARMS is a figurative verb phrase ALWAYS
used in constitutional language pre-Civil War to mean ONLY "to
render military service."
DY: Well here is the Bouvier Law Dictionary entry for Arms:
"ARMS. Any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes in his hands, or
uses in his anger, to cast at, or strike at another. Co. Litt. 161 b, 162 a;
Crompt. Just. P. 65; Cunn. Dict. h. t."

And here is a Bill of Rights related historical source which directly
contradicts what SK has just falsely asserted, and which he is well aware of
by now:

"That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and
their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game;
and that no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them,
unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from
individuals" [The Origin of the Second Amendment, p. 160, from the proposed
U.S. Bill of Rights by the Pennsylvania Minority]

BTW, I urge everyone to actually take a look at the Bouvier Law Dictionary
at Constitution.org and then you will begin to understand what SK's problem
is.

Read the Founders' views on the Bill of Rights. None of them are contained
within the Bouvier Law Dictionary, BTW.

--
David E. Young ***@chartermi.net
Editor - The Origin of the Second Amendment:
Cited over 100 times in the Emerson Decision
http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10331-cr0.htm
Info: http://www.secondamendmentinfo.com
The Lone Weasel
2003-07-12 01:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Young
Post by Steve Krulick
<SNIP>
Post by Jeff Strickland
What the hell are you talking about when you say "All
natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and
those
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Jeff Strickland
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of
citizens."
*I'M* not talking about this, Jeffyloon; THAT's what
the Bouvier Law Dictionary described as being the
LEGAL and POLITICAL reality at the time of the
Constitution's ratification and onward until after the
Civil War. THAT explains Dred Scott, and why THE
PEOPLE was never intended to MEAN EACH AND EVERY
INDIVIDUAL PERSON.
Really?
Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to
Can you read? Or are you blind to your own bias?
YOU say it recognized the "right to keep and BEAR ARMS" as
an individual right.
I challenge you to find the term "keep and BEAR ARMS"
below in YOUR cite!
What it DOES say is "keep and CARRY arms" and THAT is a
totally different thing!
It's ignorant hoplophile muddle-headedness like this that
creates all the confusion.
CARRY ARMS is a literal description of personally having a
gun on one's person; BEAR ARMS is a figurative verb phrase
ALWAYS used in constitutional language pre-Civil War to
mean ONLY "to render military service."
"ARMS. Any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes
in his hands, or uses in his anger, to cast at, or strike
at another. Co. Litt. 161 b, 162 a; Crompt. Just. P. 65;
Cunn. Dict. h. t."
I think Judge Green was correct when he said, "the phrase has
a military sense and no other..."

[begin excerpt]

To make this view of the case still more clear, we may remark
that the phrase, "bear arms," is used in the Kentucky
constitution as well as in our own, and implies, as has
already been suggested, their military use. The 28th section
of our bill of rights provides "that no citizen of this state
shall be compelled to bear arms provided he will pay in
equivalent, to be ascertained by law." Here we know that the
phrase has a military sense, and no other; and we must infer
that it is used in the same sense in the 26th section, which
secures to the citizen the right to bear arms. A man in the
pursuit of deer, elk, and buffaloes might carry his rifle
every day for forty years, and yet it would never be said of
him that he had borne arms; much less could it be said that a
private citizen bears arms because he has a dirk or pistol
concealed under his clothes, or a spear in a cane. So that,
with deference, we think the argument of the court in the
case referred to, even upon the question it has debated, is
defective and inconclusive.

[end excerpt]

Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys 154 (Tenn. 1840)

While Judge Green is technically correct, I think it's also a
fact that state legislatures adopted that language almost
always using the reflexive pronoun to indicate the provision
of a personal right in self defense, in addition to the
collective right vested in the state militia to bear arms in
defense of the state.

Why would the states reiterate the collective right when it's
already granted by the Second Amendment, Divot?

That's a test question to be answered in your next stupid
post - compare and contrast your understanding of Atmette &
Cockrum to a hole in the ground...

Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh.

_______________


The clause in the constitution of the United States, that it
is said to be in violation of, is the 2d article of the
amendments: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people to keep
and bear arms shall not be infringed." O. & W. Dig. 7. The
clause in the constitution of this state, which it is said
to violate, is the 13th section of the bill of rights:
"Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms,
in the lawful defense of himself or the state." O. & W. Dig.
14.

The object of the clause first cited, has reference to the
perpetuation of free government, and is based on the idea,
that the people cannot be effectually oppressed and
enslaved, who are not first disarmed. The clause cited in
our bill of rights, has the same broad object in relation to
the government, and in addition thereto, secures a personal
right to the citizen. The right of a citizen to bear arms,
in the lawful defense of himself or the state, is absolute.
He does not derive it from the state government, but
directly from the sovereign convention of the people that
framed the state government.

The clause cited in our bill of rights, has the same broad
object in relation to the government, and in addition
thereto, secures a personal right to the citizen.


Cockrum v. State, 24 Texas 394 (1859)
--
Yours truly,

The Lone Weasel
Stuart Grey
2003-07-12 02:01:08 UTC
Permalink
The Lone Weasel wrote:

So, basically, you're a Canadian who lies
often and wants to meddle in American politics.
strabo
2003-07-12 09:18:47 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Jul 2003 01:59:33 GMT, The Lone Weasel
<snipped>
Post by The Lone Weasel
Post by David E. Young
"ARMS. Any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes
in his hands, or uses in his anger, to cast at, or strike
at another. Co. Litt. 161 b, 162 a; Crompt. Just. P. 65;
Cunn. Dict. h. t."
I think Judge Green was correct when he said, "the phrase has
a military sense and no other..."
[begin excerpt]
To make this view of the case still more clear, we may remark
that the phrase, "bear arms," is used in the Kentucky
constitution as well as in our own, and implies, as has
already been suggested, their military use. The 28th section
of our bill of rights provides "that no citizen of this state
shall be compelled to bear arms provided he will pay in
equivalent, to be ascertained by law." Here we know that the
phrase has a military sense, and no other; and we must infer
that it is used in the same sense in the 26th section, which
secures to the citizen the right to bear arms. A man in the
pursuit of deer, elk, and buffaloes might carry his rifle
every day for forty years, and yet it would never be said of
him that he had borne arms; much less could it be said that a
private citizen bears arms because he has a dirk or pistol
concealed under his clothes, or a spear in a cane. So that,
with deference, we think the argument of the court in the
case referred to, even upon the question it has debated, is
defective and inconclusive.
[end excerpt]
Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys 154 (Tenn. 1840)
While Judge Green is technically correct, I think it's also a
fact that state legislatures adopted that language almost
always using the reflexive pronoun to indicate the provision
of a personal right in self defense, in addition to the
collective right vested in the state militia to bear arms in
defense of the state.
His comments speak to a formal military as in "A well regulated
militia" that might be called by the state, whereas "the right of
the people" refers to any collection of individuals that might
organize as a local militia. In either case it is the individuals
that comprise the formal and the informal and it is the
individuals that are obliged to be armed.
Post by The Lone Weasel
Why would the states reiterate the collective right when it's
already granted by the Second Amendment, Divot?
There is no collective Right, only an individual Right.
The 2nd A. doesn't "grant" a Right.

The states (all of the original states) formalized the militia
through statute in their constitutions.

The Constitution, as did the Articles of Confederation,
emphasizes the need for ready local militias that can be
combined as a state or regional force.
Post by The Lone Weasel
That's a test question to be answered in your next stupid
post - compare and contrast your understanding of Atmette &
Cockrum to a hole in the ground...
Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh.
_______________
The clause in the constitution of the United States, that it
is said to be in violation of, is the 2d article of the
amendments: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people to keep
and bear arms shall not be infringed." O. & W. Dig. 7. The
clause in the constitution of this state, which it is said
"Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms,
in the lawful defense of himself or the state." O. & W. Dig.
14.
The object of the clause first cited, has reference to the
perpetuation of free government, and is based on the idea,
that the people cannot be effectually oppressed and
enslaved, who are not first disarmed. The clause cited in
our bill of rights, has the same broad object in relation to
the government, and in addition thereto, secures a personal
right to the citizen. The right of a citizen to bear arms,
in the lawful defense of himself or the state, is absolute.
He does not derive it from the state government, but
directly from the sovereign convention of the people that
framed the state government.
The clause cited in our bill of rights, has the same broad
object in relation to the government, and in addition
thereto, secures a personal right to the citizen.
Cockrum v. State, 24 Texas 394 (1859)
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 07:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Young
Post by Steve Krulick
<SNIP>
Post by Jeff Strickland
What the hell are you talking about when you say "All natives are not
citizens of the United States; the descendants of the aborigines, and
those
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Jeff Strickland
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of citizens."
*I'M* not talking about this, Jeffyloon; THAT's what the Bouvier
Law Dictionary described as being the LEGAL and POLITICAL
reality at the time of the Constitution's ratification and
onward until after the Civil War. THAT explains Dred Scott, and
why THE PEOPLE was never intended to MEAN EACH AND EVERY
INDIVIDUAL PERSON.
Really?
Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to keep and bear
Can you read? Or are you blind to your own bias?
YOU say it recognized the "right to keep and BEAR ARMS" as an
individual right.
I challenge you to find the term "keep and BEAR ARMS" below in
YOUR cite!
What it DOES say is "keep and CARRY arms" and THAT is a totally
different thing!
It's ignorant hoplophile muddle-headedness like this that
creates all the confusion.
CARRY ARMS is a literal description of personally having a gun
on one's person; BEAR ARMS is a figurative verb phrase ALWAYS
used in constitutional language pre-Civil War to mean ONLY "to
render military service."
"ARMS. Any thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes in his hands, or
uses in his anger, to cast at, or strike at another. Co. Litt. 161 b, 162 a;
Crompt. Just. P. 65; Cunn. Dict. h. t."
Bogus straw! The term is BEAR ARMS, which has it's own meaning
and history and usage.

What a disingenuous blowhard! With YOUR logic, we can define
arms as those things attached to your shoulders, and "bear arms"
as the limbs of a large brown land mammal.

Lord preserve us from lying connivers like DY!

Further to that, here's what historian Gary Wills has to say:
(http://www.potomac-inc.org/garwills.html)

Bear Arms. To bear arms is, in itself, a military term. One does
not bear arms against a rabbit. The phrase simply translates the
Latin arma ferre. The infinitive ferre, to bear, comes from the
verb fero. The plural noun arma explains the plural usage in
English ("arms"). One does not "bear arm." Latin arma is,
etymologically, war "equipment," and it has no singular forms."
16 By legal and other channels, arma ferre entered deeply into
the European language of war. To bear arms is such a synonym for
waging war that Shakespeare can call a just war "just-borne
arms" and a civil war "self-borne arms." 17 Even outside the
phrase "bear arms," much of the noun's use alone echoes Latin
phrases: to be under arms (sub armis), the call to arms (ad
arma), to follow arms (arma sequi), to take arms (arma capere),
to lay down arms (arma ponere). "Arms" is a profession that one
brother chooses as another chooses law or the church. An issue
undergoes the arbitrament of arms. In the singular, English
"arm" often means a component of military force (the artillery
arm, the cavalry arm).

Thus "arms" in English, as in Latin, is not restricted to the
meaning "guns." The Romans had no guns; and they did not limit
arma to projectile weapons (spears, arrows). It meant weaponry
in general, everything from swords to siege instruments— but
especially shields. That is why the heraldic use of "arms" in
English (the very case Stephen Halbrook invokes) refers to
shields "coated" (covered) with blazonry...

(Patrick Henry tells us, the militia's arms include
"regimentals, etc." flags, ensigns, engineering tools, siege
apparatus, and other "accoutrements of war."

The best evidence for the Second Amendment meaning of "bear
Arms" is in the original draft of the Amendment proposed in the
First Congress by James Madison: "The right of the people to
keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and
well regulated militia being the best security of a free
country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms,
shall be compelled to render military service in person."
Creating the Bill of Rights: The Documentary Record from the
First Federal Congress 12 (Helen E. Veit, Kenneth R. Bowling &
Charlene Bangs Bickford eds. 1991) hereinafter, "Documentary
Record"). In the last clause of this version (the conscientious
objector provision), Madison clearly used the phrase "bearing
arms" to refer solely to the possession of weapons for military
use. It is implausible to contend that virtually the same phrase
"bear arms" should have a different, much broader meaning
elsewhere in the very same sentence.

(Did Quakers have "religious scruples" about "carrying guns" out
to the woods to hunt turkeys?)

Madison's use of the phrase "bear arms" to refer to military
activities is echoed in other contemporary usages. See 6 Sources
and Documents of United States Constitutions 345 (William F.
Swindler ed. 1976) (reprinting New Hampshire Constitution of
1784: "No person who is conscientiously scrupulous about the
lawfulness of bearing arms, shall be compelled thereto, provided
he will pay an equivalent."); 1 The Debates in the Several State
Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution as
Recommended by the General Convention at Philadelphia in 1787,
at 335 (Jonathan Elliott ed., 2d ed. 1891) (photo reprint,
William S. Hein & Co. 1996) (hereinafter, "Elliott's Debates")
(reprinting constitutional amendment proposed by Rhode Island's
1790 ratifying convention: "That the people have a right to keep
and bear arms; . . . That any person religiously scrupulous of
bearing arms ought to be exempted upon payment of an equivalent
to employ another to bear arms in his stead.")...

These usages were standard at the time the Second Amendment was
adopted. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "to bear arms" as
meaning "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight." 1
OED 634 (J.A. Simpson & E.S.C. Weiner eds., 2nd ed. 1989)
(hereinafter, "OED"). It defines "to bear arms against" as
meaning "to be engaged in hostilities with." 2 id. at 21. As an
exemplary use of the phrase in 1769, the OED gives "An ample
pardon . . . to all who had born arms against him," and the
exemplary use from 1609 is "He bare arms, and made weir against
the king." Id"

(When I want to know what a term REALLY means, I consult the
OED, not YOU. What is your source for your claim that the
framers meant "own guns" when they said "bear arms"?)
Post by David E. Young
And here is a Bill of Rights related historical source which directly
contradicts what SK has just falsely asserted, and which he is well aware of
Ha! the old hokum "Pennsylvania Minority Report!"

Well, since no such language like it appears in the BoR, clearly
this is NOT what Madison and the gang wanted to say! There were
enough other examples that WERE closer to what was eventually
written, that if this one piece never existed it wouldn't have
made a difference. That it was derided by such as Noah Webster,
and that the lone author (it was never debated item by item or
voted on item by item; the other printed works contradict it and
the other authors who contributed to the compilation, so we
don't know exactly what the "official" version of this
unofficial pastiche was), who only wanted to sink the federalist
plans, would be held up by Madison as the source of HIS agenda
(to sink the anti-fed plans to hold a new const convention) is
absurd.

In the entire history of the universe of the late 17th Century,
this is the ONE AND ONLY example of THIS particular usage the
hoplophiles have EVER dug up! Why is that? Why does DY and the
claque ignore the HUNDREDS of consistent and RATIFIED LEGAL
USES, and hold up as holy grail ONE, REJECTED draft by ONE CRANK
whose only purpose was to scuttle the Constitution process? IF
this were common usage, why are there NO OTHER similar uses?
NONE! EVERY debated, passed, ratified OFFICIAL document that
uses "bear arms" has only ONE meaning, and HUNTING is NOT EVER
referred to!

DY has not addressed my serious challenges to the validity of
this, but has side-stepped with irrelevant factoids, nor has he
refuted the comments of Wills and others that I presented.

What slim reeds these disingenuous hoplophiles build their cases
on!
Post by David E. Young
"That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and
their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game;
and that no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them,
unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from
individuals" [The Origin of the Second Amendment, p. 160, from the proposed
U.S. Bill of Rights by the Pennsylvania Minority]
BTW, I urge everyone to actually take a look at the Bouvier Law Dictionary
at Constitution.org and then you will begin to understand what SK's problem
is.
Which is what? Is the definition of PEOPLE, STATE, FREEMAN,
CITIZEN, BODY POLITIC not what the authors meant?

DY won't even acknowledge this but just wants to ad hom me and
poison the well.
Post by David E. Young
Read the Founders' views on the Bill of Rights. None of them are contained
within the Bouvier Law Dictionary, BTW.
No, only the WORDS THEY USED AS THEY USED THEM!

Want to know EXACTLY what TJ, writing to Madison from Paris,
recommended as NECESSARY in a Bill of Rights? NOT anything about
personal gun ownership or individual gun rights.

Jefferson's seventh letter regarding his contribution to the BoR
process was written to Dr. Joseph Priestley, June 19, 1802. It,
like the other six letters (written 12/20/87, 2/7/88, 2/12/88,
7/31/88, 3/13/89, and 3/18/89), can be found by date at:
http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff.htm:

"One passage, in the paper you enclosed me, must be corrected.
It is the following, ` ` and all say it was yourself more than
any other individual, that planned and established it " i. e.,
the Constitution. I was in Europe when the Constitution was
planned, and never saw it till after it was established. On
receiving it I wrote strongly to Mr. Madison, urging the want of
provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press,
trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a
standing army, and an express reservation to the States of all
rights not specifically granted to the Union. He accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for these amendments,
which were agreed to and ratified by the States as they now
stand. This is all the hand I had in what related to the
Constitution."

Notice, as mentioned, the purpose of the 2nd Amen was ONLY "the
substitution of militia for a standing army," with no mention of
"guns" or "individual rights"! Again, in EACH letter, each time
he brings up his concerns for why a BoR is desired, the ONLY
concern he ever brings up regarding what was to become the 2nd
Amen is his concern over "standing armies" and NEVER gun
ownership per se or any individual rights in that regard!

According to TJ, Madison submitted an amendment for "the
substitution of militia for a standing army" and another for "an
express reservation to the States of all rights not specifically
granted to the Union"! And it was THESE [purposes behind the]
amendments "which were agreed to and ratified by the States as
they now stand."

So there you have perhaps TJ's only specific comments on the 2nd
Amen itself, why HE proposed it, and what were the purposes of
the amendments AS ratified. Your other cites are as irrelevant
to the 2nd Amen as TJ's laundry list would be compared to this!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
strabo
2003-07-12 09:31:40 UTC
Permalink
<snipped>
Post by Steve Krulick
"One passage, in the paper you enclosed me, must be corrected.
It is the following, ` ` and all say it was yourself more than
any other individual, that planned and established it " i. e.,
the Constitution. I was in Europe when the Constitution was
planned, and never saw it till after it was established. On
receiving it I wrote strongly to Mr. Madison, urging the want of
provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press,
trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a
standing army, and an express reservation to the States of all
rights not specifically granted to the Union. He accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for these amendments,
which were agreed to and ratified by the States as they now
stand. This is all the hand I had in what related to the
Constitution."
Notice, as mentioned, the purpose of the 2nd Amen was ONLY "the
substitution of militia for a standing army," with no mention of
"guns" or "individual rights"! Again, in EACH letter, each time
he brings up his concerns for why a BoR is desired, the ONLY
concern he ever brings up regarding what was to become the 2nd
Amen is his concern over "standing armies" and NEVER gun
ownership per se or any individual rights in that regard!
1 - There is no constitutional "standing army".

2 - While the 2nd A. refers to militia, Rights pertain
only to individuals and therefore the individuals that
make up the militia, and "the people".
Post by Steve Krulick
According to TJ, Madison submitted an amendment for "the
substitution of militia for a standing army" and another for "an
express reservation to the States of all rights not specifically
granted to the Union"! And it was THESE [purposes behind the]
amendments "which were agreed to and ratified by the States as
they now stand."
To secure the Rights of individuals to be armed.
Post by Steve Krulick
So there you have perhaps TJ's only specific comments on the 2nd
Amen itself, why HE proposed it, and what were the purposes of
the amendments AS ratified. Your other cites are as irrelevant
to the 2nd Amen as TJ's laundry list would be compared to this!
It was already in the Virgina constitution and others as well as
previous Agreeements and Pacts.

The individual was it. The individual was all there was.
The individual was to be armed and ready, for state defense as
well as his own.
David Hughes
2003-07-12 05:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
<SNIP>
Post by Jeff Strickland
What the hell are you talking about when you say "All natives are not
citizens of the United States; the descendants of the aborigines, and those
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of citizens."
*I'M* not talking about this, Jeffyloon; THAT's what the Bouvier
Law Dictionary described as being the LEGAL and POLITICAL
reality at the time of the Constitution's ratification and
onward until after the Civil War. THAT explains Dred Scott, and
why THE PEOPLE was never intended to MEAN EACH AND EVERY
INDIVIDUAL PERSON.
Really?
Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to keep and bear
Can you read? Or are you blind to your own bias?
I read quite well. As to biases, let's discuss your points.
Post by Steve Krulick
YOU say it recognized the "right to keep and BEAR ARMS" as an
individual right.
I challenge you to find the term "keep and BEAR ARMS" below in
YOUR cite!
What it DOES say is "keep and CARRY arms" and THAT is a totally
different thing!
Arguable, but I will, for the moment, accept your contention.
Post by Steve Krulick
It's ignorant hoplophile muddle-headedness like this that
creates all the confusion.
I prefer to keep these discussion polite.
Post by Steve Krulick
CARRY ARMS is a literal description of personally having a gun
on one's person; BEAR ARMS is a figurative verb phrase ALWAYS
used in constitutional language pre-Civil War to mean ONLY "to
render military service."
Nonsense. "To Bear Arms", in English common law (on which US law is
based) from 1688 to 1850, means to have access to arms or to have them
on your person.
Post by Steve Krulick
What is said below confirms what I said from Bouvier; negroes
were NOT citizens pre-Civil War, hence NOT recognized as having
any of the rights of citizens, which was THEN equivalent to
enfranchised voters.
Incorrect. Negroes, in 1859, could be Citizens in several states, the
question at hand was if merely holding citizenship in one state
automatically granted the rights of citizens in all states.
Post by Steve Krulick
There were many laws that spoke of blacks specifically NOT being
able to "CARRY GUNS" or "CARRY ARMS" and that meant JUST that;
laws about "BEARING ARMS" ALWAYS referred to militia service.
I suggest you examine the presence of Negro members of state militias
between 1775 and 1865. A great many negroes did bear arms in military
service, as well as carried them for other purposes.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the names Lemuel Haynes, Peter Salem
and Salem Poore?
SOME states had restrictions on negroes possessing arms.

Generally, at this point, some fool bring up the line "That each and
every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States"
from the Militia act of 1792 as proof that Negroes could not be in the
militia. Note that the act mandates that White males be enrolled, but
does not exclude negroes, Aboriginal Americans, indentured servants,
slaves, etc. Various militia units permitted enrollment by
individuals who were not required to be enrolled, but volunteered.
Post by Steve Krulick
Was the SCotUS confused about the terms? NO, because they
correctly referred to the Constitutional right in the ruling as
"For example, no one, we presume, will contend that Congress can
make any law in a Territory respecting the establishment of
religion, or the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom
of speech or of the press, or the right of the people of the
Territory peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government
for the redress of grievances.
Nor can Congress deny to the people the right to keep and bear
arms, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a
witness against himself in a criminal proceeding."
To claim Scott is a "2nd Amen case" based on that snippet
referring to the obvious is bogus.
I did not claim it to be a 2nd amendment case. I wrote:
"Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to keep and bear
arms as an individual right:"

Given your objection, I will now modify that that statement to:
Dred Scott vs Stanford, 1857 recognized the right to keep and carry
arms as an individual right:

Which is an even broader support for an individual right to be armed
than my first statement.
Post by Steve Krulick
"It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized as
citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other
State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or
passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they
pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night
without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for
which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full
liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon
which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon
political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went."
This quite clearly supports the contention that the rights of citizens
include an individual and unrestricted right to possess and carry arms.

Noting Bouvier's definition of "Right":
RIGHT. This word is used in various senses: 1. Sometimes it
signifies a law, as when we say that natural right requires us to keep
our promises, or that it commands restitution, or that it forbids
murder. In our language it is seldom used in this sense. 2. It
sometimes means that quality in our actions by which they are
denominated just ones. This is usually denominated rectitude. 3. It is
that quality in a person by which he can do certain actions, or
possess certain things which belong to him by virtue of some title. In
this sense, we use it when we say that a man has a right to his estate
or a right to defend himself. Ruth, Inst. c. 2, §1, 2, 3; Merlin,;
Repert. de Jurisp. mot Droit. See Wood's Inst. 119.

2. In this latter sense alone, will this word be here considered.
Right is the correlative of duty, for, wherever one has a right due to
him, some other must owe him a duty. 1 Toull. n. 96.

3. Rights are perfect and imperfect. When the things which we have a
right to possess or the actions we have a right to do, are or may be
fixed and determinate, the right is a perfect one; but when the thing
or the actions are vague and indeterminate, the right is an imperfect
one. If a man demand his property, which is withheld from him, the
right that supports his demand is a perfect one; because the thing
demanded is, or may be fixed and determinate.

4. But if a poor man ask relief from those from whom he has reason to
expect it, the right, which supports his petition, is an imperfect
one; because the relief which he expects, is a vague indeterminate,
thing. Ruth. Inst. c. 2, §4; Grot. lib. 1, c. §4.

5. Rights are also absolute and qualified. A man has an absolute right
to recover property which belongs to him; an agent has a qualified
right to recover such property, when it had been entrusted to his
care, and which has been unlawfully taken out of his possession. Vide
Trover.

6. Rights might with propriety be also divided into natural and civil
rights but as all the rights which man has received from nature have
been modified and acquired anew from the civil law, it is more proper,
when considering their object, to divide them into political and civil
rights.

7. Political rights consist in the power to participate, directly or
indirectly, in the establishment or management of government. These
political rights are fixed by the constitution. Every citizen has the
right of voting for public officers, and of being elected; these are
the political rights which the humblest citizen possesses.

8. Civil rights are those which have no relation to the establishment,
support, or management of the government. These consist in the power
of acquiring and enjoying property, of exercising the paternal and
marital powers, and the like. It will be observed that every one,
unless deprived of them by a sen-tence of civil death, is in the
enjoyment of his civil rights, which is not the case with political
rights; for an alien, for example, has no political, although in the
full enjoyment of his civil rights.

9. These latter rights are divided into absolute and relative. The
absolute rights of mankind may be reduced to three principal or
primary articles: the right of personal security, which consists in a
person's legal and uninter-rupted enjoyment of his life, his limbs,
his body, his health, and his reputation; the right of personal
liberty, which consists in the power of locomotion, of changing
situation, or removing one's person to whatsoever place one's
inclination may direct, without any restraint, unless by due course of
law; the right of property, which consists in the free use, enjoyment,
and disposal of all his acquisitions, without any control or
diminution, save only by the laws of the land. 1 Bl. 124 to 139.

10. The relative rights are public or private: the first are those
which subsist between the people and the government, as the right of
protection on the part of the people, and the right of allegiance
which is due by the people to the government; the second are the
reciprocal rights of hushand and wife, parent and child, guardian and
ward, aud master and servant.

11. Rights are also divided into legal and equitable. The former are
those where the party has the legal title to a thing, and in that
case, his remedy for an infringement of it, is by an action in a court
of law. Although the person holding the legal title may have no actual
interest, but hold only as trustee, the suit must be in his name, and
not in general, in that of the cestui que trust. 1 East, 497 8 T. R.
332; 1 Saund. 158, n. 1; 2 Bing. 20. The latter, or equitable rights,
are those which may be enforced in a court of equity by the cestui que
trust. See, generally, Bouv. Ins t. Index, h. t. Remedy.

Curious, all the definitions and usages refer to individual rights,
there's not a collective right among them. Wonder what that means?

In any case, all the rights of citizens used in the above citation
from Dred Scott vs Stanford , ignoring for the moment the keeping and
carrying of arms, appear to be perfect and absolute, according to
Bouvier's definitions. This suggests that the right to keep and carry
arms is also perfect and absolute.
Post by Steve Krulick
Of course, Dred Scott is moot today, overturned by the Civil War
and the subsequent amendments to the constitution. But at the
time it was written, it DID accurately portray what the
constitution did indeed say about the inferior position blacks
held UNDER THE LAW.
Please distinguish between blacks and slaves.
Post by Steve Krulick
However you make a glaring linguistic mistake: "keep and carry
arms" is NOT the same as "keep and BEAR arms"! One is a physical
act of possession and transport of guns, the other the militia
function of maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the equipage
of warfare, and serving, if qualified, in a well regulated
militia for the common defense. BIG difference. The Scott
decision is referring ONLY to the former in YOUR CITE, while it
also refers to the latter in MY cite.
Great! I'm very pleased that the Supreme Court has recognized my right
to keep and carry arms, completely separate from any taint of military
service or militia activity!
Post by Steve Krulick
For a scholarly discussion of the difference between "carry
arms" and "bear arms," particularly as it related to laws
http://www.potomac-inc.org/emerappa.html, specifically
Interesting example of "cherry picking". Include those references
that support a position, and just enough conflicting references to
make it appear that a honest effort at research has been done.
From the title "MEANING OF THE PHRASE TO BEAR ARMS" BASED ON 300
HISTORICAL USES OF THE TERM IN A MILITARY CONTEXT IN EARLY AMERICA,
1618-1791"

Makes me wonder how many uses of the term in a non-military context
were not considered.

It would be interesting to have this document undergo rigorous peer
review.
Post by Steve Krulick
Scott was not a 2nd Amen case, and only one reference to "bear
arms" confirms merely what the 2nd Amen says (and "bear arms"
means to serve in the militia); the later reference is to "carry
arms" which is NOT the same thing at all (you'll NEVER find an
ante-bellum reference to negroes "bearing arms" as they were
NEVER considered as militia-qualified; you will only find
references to negroes "carrying" arms or weapons WITH their
General Jackson was supported at the Battle of New Orleans, 1814, by
free negro militia.

All examples below from the paper:
RESETTING THE TERMS OF DEBATE ON THE

SECOND AMENDMENT:

NEW LIGHT ON THE ORIGINAL MEANING OF THE PHRASE

"TO BEAR ARMS" BASED ON 300 HISTORICAL USES

OF THE TERM IN A MILITARY CONTEXT

IN EARLY AMERICA, 1618-1791

John Kenneth Rowland

http://www.potomac-inc.org/emerappa.html
Post by Steve Krulick
• 1715: "No negro or other slave … shall be permitted to carry
any gun, or any other offensive weapon, from off their master's
land, without license."
Maryland Chapter XLIV, Section XXXII of the Acts of 1715
Post by Steve Krulick
• 1740: "It shall not be lawful for any slave, unless in the
presence of some white person, to carry or make use of
fire-arms, or any offensive weapon whatsoever."
I can't find this one, it's cited as footnote 167 of the paper, but
"Texts for footnotes 22-174 are omitted"
Post by Steve Krulick
• 1750: Penalty for "any Negro or Mulatto slave ... to carry any
guns, swords, pistols, fowling-pieces, clubs, or other arms and
weapons whatsoever, without his master's special license."
1700 (NOT 1750, make one wonder about the accuracy of the rest of the
paper) Pennsylvania "The Act for the Trial of Negroes" (Later
disallowed by the Queen {Anne of Great Britain} in Council, never
becoming law)
Post by Steve Krulick
WHY wasn't the term "bear arms" used in each of these cases, IF
the terms are identical? It's because THEY ARE NOT!
Or, possibly, because it the term "Bear Arms" didn't come into common
use for another 50 years? In the paper you suggested reading, out of
300 references, there are only @ fifteen uses of Bear arm, in any
variant spelling, prior to 1770 (a span of 150 years, or an average of
once every 10 years), while between 1770 and 1791, a 21 year period,
it gives 41 uses (an average of 2 per year).

You failed to cite your sources for these references, so I added them
when I could find them.
Post by Steve Krulick
But thanks for playing!
I quite enjoy intellectual debate.

David Hughes
strabo
2003-07-11 23:06:15 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:20:40 -0700, "Jeff Strickland"
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Steve Krulick
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
After the 14th Amendment, the "class" of citizens was enlarged to include
those that were excluded before. This argument is bogus and completely
irrelevent.
This is true because "class" was never a part of the problem or
the solution.
Post by Jeff Strickland
What the hell are you talking about when you say "All natives are not
citizens of the United States; the descendants of the aborigines, and those
of African origin, are not entitled to the rights of citizens." Why do you
repeatedly post things that no longer are true to support your lunatic
positions?
It is true today. Indians (that are born in an Indian nation or
are a part of that nation) are, as they were, sovereign citizens
of their respective nations. Each Indian nation had a treaty with
the federal government. Federal law imposes certain conditions
over Indian nations and their peoples, but they are not citizens
of the states in an ordinary sense.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The 2nd had limitations when originally written because all persons were not
considered citizens, but passage of the 14th brought those that were
excluded from the designation of citizen into the group, where they
rightfully belonged.
At the time (pre-War) the distinction was immaterial. Color, per
se, was not a constitutional issue. Their were plenty of blacks
who were freemen, either due to never having been a slave or
because freedom from servitude was paid for or given.

Slaves were property and property (property is a legal class)
had no Rights, thus no weapons though some were the official
hunters for their owners.

After the War, the federals were in a quandry. The ex-slaves
couldn't be legally freed by their owners and become free men and
citizens within any state because Lincoln had forcibly replaced
civil law with military law. In other words, Reconstruction was
martial law. The ex-slaves therefore could not become citizens of
their states. They were in legal limbo. That's where the 14th A.
essentially 'gave' ownership of the ex-slaves to the federals who
then freed them within their respective states thus resolving the
legal issue of their status.
Post by Jeff Strickland
So, the right of the people to keep and bear arms did not extend to as many
people as it should have. Now, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
includes all of the people. The class of The People has grown, not shrunk.
Except that classes are legal categories, artficial entities.
Classes do not have Rights. Only individuals have natural Rights
and each individual has the inherent Right to own, possess
and use weapons.
strabo
2003-07-11 22:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Steve Krulick
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
Similarly, being a 'native' does not make you a 'natural born citizen'
which traditionally referred to one's natural parents being citizens, and
in chauvinist countires like Switzerland referred to one's natural father
as having been a citizen. Indeed, the use of 'natural born' in the
Constitution wouldn't make sense if it had the meaning of 'native'. Thus,
as citizenship is inheritable by blood, so is the right to hold the
office of president (as demonstrated so ably by Bubya).
Post by Steve Krulick
So in the most narrow sense, "Citizen" is equal to "Freeman" and
the same class that defined "The People," that is, the
enfranchised voter. In the larger sense, it includes women and
kids, but not blacks or indians. Not until the Civil War was
this expanded.
You mean in the ordinary sense that: All citizens are freemen.
Not all freemen are citizens, but they still have all natural
rights of 'the People'. They don't have the rights of artificial
classes, such as citizens: Voting isn't a natural right, it's a civil
Au contraire, if voting were not a natural Right then the
colonial transition states could have simply outlawed it early
on. Instead, voting was considered a basic principle in ensuring
a peaceful means to secure freedom and liberty.

Attempts to control voting instead hinged on tax and
literacy tests. Even these were known to be wrong.

And, at the risk of making too fine a point, there is no such
thing as a 'civil right'. 'Civilians' and 'citizens' are
legal entities which draw their life's blood from statute.
They are granted privilege and status, i.e., the Roman
slave that became a citizen was thereby protected by the state,
or, as deemed by federal Title regulation, a minority gets
special status and privilege.

By virtue of the primacy of natural Rights (as opposed to
privilege) and the constitutional provisions of the first states
and the similar structure and protections built into the federal
constitution, it seems clear to me that voting is a natural Right
and not a civil grant.
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by Steve Krulick
So, THE PEOPLE CLASS is composed of FREEMEN which at any given
time is the enfranchised voter, "One who, under the constitution
and laws of the United States, has a right to vote for
representatives in congress, and other public officers, and who
is qualified to fill offices in the gift of the people." But
that still doesn't mean that a right of the CLASS is
automatically distributive to each component member.
Scout
2003-07-10 22:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!
Thus according to you the 4th protects only the government, as no individual
is protected under "the right of the people", and the 10th repeats itself by
reserving powers to "the States" and then again to "the people" which as you
claim are those self same state governments.


Sorry, but your argument is inconsistent and contradictory when applied
universally, which means it's wrong.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 03:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right
of
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that
those
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!
Thus according to you the 4th protects only the government,
No, lying strawslinger!

EVERY DAMN TIME I present this, Snout disingenuously snips away
what *I* say, misinterprets it and REPLACES it with a FALSE and
bogus "Thus according to you..." which NEVER is what WAS
according to me!

It's just false lying straw, and no matter HOW MANY times I try
to correct Snout, he blithely repeats the disproven and
repudiated bogus straw! Watch and see... he'll do it again here!

No, lying strawslinger. The 4th Amen, as stated, protects THE
PEOPLE, which is the PEOPLE CLASS, also known as the FREEMAN
CLASS, which is the enfranchised body politic of the nation in
its collective and political capacity, just as the authoritative
Bouvier Law Dictionary of the 19th Century stated. Individual
members of the FREEMAN CLASS MAY invoke the distributive rights
of the 4th Amen, because they ARE in the protected class, and
the rights ARE distributive.

Pretty simple, huh? But silly Snout still can't understand it or
get it straight!

Here's how I clarified David Young's ham-fisted straw version:

4th Amendment: "the distributive right of the MEMBERS of the
COLLECTIVE enfranchised body politic (that is, those defined as
FREEMEN, who make up the FREEMAN CLASS of which THE PEOPLE is
composed, as distinguished from individuals who are NOT members
of that CLASS whose rights in this regard may or not be
protected) to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not
be violated"

And here's how NY and VA drafted what became the 4th Amen:

"That every FREEMAN has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

Why did this say FREEMAN (sometimes FREEHOLDER) rather than just
person/citizen/individual? FREEMAN is the ONLY singular term
that leaves out ALL the citizens/persons/individuals who are NOT
those included in the enfranchised (AND propertied!) class known
as THE PEOPLE, and so referred to in every other instance!

Why didn't DY include the Mass Const's use of BOTH collective
and individual terms in ONE sentence, which demonstrates that
they are NOT identical?:

Article XXIX declares that the independence of the judiciary is
essential "for the security of the rights of the people, and of
every citizen."

IF the people simply MEANT every citizen, why say both? Clearly,
to Adams, THE PEOPLE had rights, and EVERY CITIZEN had rights,
and they were not identical!
Post by Scout
as no individual
is protected under "the right of the people",
No, silly Snout! As I've only said at least a hundred times
here, EACH individual who is a MEMBER of the enumerated class,
as understood in the language of the time it was written, is
protected by invoking the rights IF the right is distributive,
as the 4th Amen rights are.

IF you are a member of the CLASS known as the PEOPLE, i.e., the
enfranchised body politic, YOUR 4th Amen right to be secure in
YOUR person and property is protected. THAT'S why it says THE
PEOPLE.

Which is composed of Freemen, as they belong to the class known
as the People; as Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this Amen
indicated "The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR
[emph. added] persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR
other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."
protects the CLASS, so when a member of that class is abused of
these rights, as formulated FOR the CLASS, he, as a member OF
the CLASS, can invoke the rights under the Const for INDIVIDUAL
APPLICATION.

Is that so hard to understand? Hell, even Rehnquist, in
Verdugo, suggested that foreigners, as NON-members of the CLASS
known as The People, did NOT have 4th Amen rights that belonged
TO the CLASS known as The People!

The rights are different rights in each Amen. The People is the
same The People. But some of the RIGHTS apply ONLY to the People
in their collective capacity as the enfranchised body politic
(the whole People), others to certain members of that class
taken collectively (e.g. the militia drawn from "the body of the
People), others to a specific sub-class of The People (The
People of the State), others to the Freemen who comprise The
People, taken collectively or as an individual Freeman. I drew
the distinctions for the different "the People" amendments in
the previous posts.


[Here is where I usually post Akhil Amar's essay that confirms
this; if I've posted it once I've posted it a hundred, nay, five
hundred times! Silly Snout has seen it repeatedly, but NEVER
addresses it, much less refutes it, because he CAN'T.]

A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.

INDIVIDUALS who are members of THE CLASS known as THE PEOPLE may
invoke the right the Class retains IF the right is relevant to
the circumstance AND distributable; some rights of the CEBP ARE
distributable (like being secure from unreasonable searches),
some are not (like indicting, trying, and convicting citizens of
crimes; NO individual can do this on his own, unless delegated
to do so by THE People, e.g., a DA or judge, and no group of
individuals, e.g. a jury, unless by due process and AS reps of
THE people!)

So, when a group of enfranchised Freemen choose to ASSEMBLE as a
political convention to choose a candidate to run for office, or
to adapt a platform, congress can't interfere. The NUMBER of
persons who wish to assemble for this purpose is immaterial --
although it must be more than ONE for there to BE any assembling
going on! -- and the right protects THAT group and also the
individuals present as long as THEY are members OF the protected
class, in this case THE People, which only included enfranchised
Freemen in 1789.


WHENEVER the term-of-art "THE PEOPLE" appears in the
Constitution or BoR, or even other official documents of the
era, it means one thing only, in every case: THE PEOPLE is a
singular entity, the collective enfranchised body politic,
specifically, the CLASS of Freeman taken collectively in its
political capacity.

The only PERSONS with "political capacity" were FREEMEN, that
is, free, white males of legal age. Often this was called
FREEHOLDER and then also meant property-owning free, white males
of legal age. The term ELECTOR was often used in local or state
documents, and this may have restricted political capacity even
further, by, say, requiring residence in a location for a
certain period of time.

In 1789, women, black slaves, kids, non-citizens (such as
foreigners, Indians, prisoners, rebels/Tories, etc.) had NO
political capacity. They could not vote, and were not required
to serve on juries or in the militia. In that sense, they were
NOT a constituent part of THE PEOPLE! Thus, they had, or may
have had, the rights of all INDIVIDUALS, such as freedom of
religion or habeus corpus, but NOT the rights of FREEMEN or of
the collective FREEMAN class. OR, and this is where the BoR
comes in, any rights they MAY have claimed were not PROTECTED or
GUARANTEED by the Const!

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Yes, individuals comprise the CLASS of FREEMEN who make up THE
PEOPLE. But *A* single individual doesn't necessarily have the
rights and powers that only the collective class or subset
thereof may enjoy. Yes, individuals make up a jury, but no ONE
individual person can declare HIMSELF a legal jury of one, or
put himself ON a jury, or find someone guilty independent of
the other jurors, can he? Only the jury as a whole can do what
the jury is empowered to do. There ARE NO one-man militias, and
only THE PEOPLE collectively can organize, arm, and maintain a
militia. Congress can declare war, but NOT one Congressman on
his own. The individual that the collective is composed of may
share in the power and rights of the whole, but doesn't have ALL
the same characteristics or prerogatives of the whole. Or, even
as to collective entities, the United States may declare war,
but NOT an individual state.

A building may be made of bricks, but a brick is NOT the
building! The part is NOT the same as the whole, nor does it
have the same properties or abilities. One can meet IN a
building, but that doesn't mean one can meet in a brick, or even
a pile of bricks equal in number to the number of bricks making
up a building! If one removes one brick from the building, the
building still remains; if one removes and replaces 50 bricks,
the building remains, independent of the particular bricks
changed.

A corporation may be made up of individuals, but it has an
existence that is not dependent on the life or death, or coming
and going of any particular individual.

So, what THE PEOPLE may do as an enfranchised body politic is
NOT necessarily something any individual may do on his own.
However, an individual may share in the process, and may, as a
member of a designated class or subclass, enjoy the rights OF
that class. IF you are a homeowner, the 3rd Amen rights may be
invoked IF you feel your rights as such have been violated. Not
because YOU yourself are listed in the Const, but because YOU
fit the class protected by the collective term "homeowner."

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Scout
1 plural : human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a
common interest
2 plural : HUMAN BEINGS, PERSONS -- often used in compounds instead of
persons
3 plural : the members of a family or kinship
4 plural : the mass of a community as distinguished from a special
class -- often used by Communists to distinguish Communists from other
people
5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common
culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common
language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a
politically organized group
6 : lower animals usually of a specified kind or situation
7 : the body of enfranchised citizens of a state
For legal/political/constitutional purposes, #7 is the SINGULAR
and relevant term; the others can go take a hike!

The LEGAL concept of THE PEOPLE is not numerical or even
geographical, but conceptual and political, and THAT definition
is: "the body of enfranchised citizens of the state." IT is a
SINGULAR, collective entity.

Citizens, or "individuals," included women, children and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense!

(BTW, it seems, according to the Bouvier Law Dictionary,
"citizen" only originally and primarily referred to the
enfranchised white male of age, which is ONLY the same class
that is called... THE PEOPLE, and from which the militia is
drawn as "the BODY of the PEOPLE"! Only in a wider and secondary
use did "citizen" include the non-enfranchised WHITES; blacks
before the War of the Rebellion did NOT have the title
"citizen"!)

The PEOPLE is not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular
entity, like a corporation, which also is made up of
individuals, yet it has perpetual existence and powers
independent and beyond the individuals comprising it.

Some rights are of individuals, and some are of the THE WHOLE
PEOPLE, just as Gallatin said:

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large or considered as individuals... It
establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."
- Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7,
1789

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large OR considered as individuals...

And the 2nd Amen is a perfect example of a right of the people
at large!

"The people," as the "people at large," the "whole body of the
people," the collective "body politic," have the populus armatus
jus militiae right to be involved in the state's (or nation's)
military function, by establishing, arming, controlling,
maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the militia ("keep arms"
as Adams meant it), and serving ("bear arms" as Madison meant
it, if qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as opposed to "regular"
professional soldiers in a standing army), drawn from the "body
of the people," and "trained to arms" and "enrolled" into an
organized, "well regulated" state militia.

"It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."

But the "right" to "own and carry guns" was never one of them.
(See Pennsylvania Test Acts)
Post by Scout
and the 10th repeats itself by
reserving powers to "the States" and then again to "the people" which as you
claim are those self same state governments.
No, lying strawslinger. I've addressed that one many times as
well.

I'll give you $100 if you can show were *I* claimed that THE
PEOPLE are "those self same state governments"! As I've NEVER
said THE STATES means state govts, nor that THE PEOPLE means
state govts, Sack O'Shit Slimeball Snout is just lying through
his teeth.

Indeed, I say the opposite all the time, that THE PEOPLE is
ALWAYS AND ONLY IN THIS CONSTITUTION the enfranchised body
politic of the nation in its collective and political capacity
(except when it's "the People of the several States" in which
case it is the enfranchised body politic of the STATE in its
collective and political capacity!), PERIOD! Bouvier says that
ONE DEFINITION of the PEOPLE and THE STATE are equivalent, but
NOT as the state govt, but as the people collectively, same as
when the term "STATE" is used.

I've said that this Amen was so written this way because the
STATES were jealous of the rights and powers they held, now
being threatened by an untested federal govt under the Const.
And the term "the People" was added precisely because the Const
was NOT a creature of the STATES, as the AoC was, but of THE
PEOPLE of THE WHOLE NATION directly, bypassing the state
legislatures, hence they MUST, of necessity mean different
things, and, of necessity BOTH be listed separately. Lying Snout
ignores all this.

Here, read it again, this time for relevant and in-context
comprehension, if you can:

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")

Since lying Snout has a habit of picking the WORST and LEAST
APPLICABLE definition in every case to produce his bogus straw,
it's clear how he took the WRONG and NON-APPLICABLE definition,
when anyone with an honest bone and two brain cells can see
WHICH term applies in which case in the Const.
Post by Scout
Sorry,
Sorry Snout is ALWAYS sorry, because he lacks the brains or
honesty to pull his bogus straw scam off.
Post by Scout
but your argument is inconsistent and contradictory
Except, Lying Snout, it's NOT MY ARGUMENT! It's YOUR bogus
strawman fantasy misrepresentation; if you had claimed in a
paper I said this, I could sue you for libel and win hands down,
since I can provide the proof of what *I* said, and YOU can't
provide the proof of YOUR false claims.
Post by Scout
when applied
universally, which means it's wrong.
Again, Lying Snout, it's YOUR bogus strawman, NOT my argument!
Go ahead, FOR ONCE, and cite MY OWN WORDS, in context, and NOT,
as you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS
do, just snip away MY words and paraphrase YOUR lying false
straw version.

Then try actually refuting my evidence, and not just snip THAT
away too, and posting NOTHING but your fact-free blatant
assertions of unsubstantiated opinion.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Dana
2003-07-11 05:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
No, lying strawslinger. The 4th Amen, as stated, protects THE
PEOPLE, which is the PEOPLE CLASS, also known as the FREEMAN
CLASS,
Which also applies to the 2nd.
Scout
2003-07-11 22:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Scout
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right
of
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that
those
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!
Thus according to you the 4th protects only the government,
No, lying strawslinger!
EVERY DAMN TIME I present this, Snout disingenuously snips away
what *I* say, misinterprets it and REPLACES it with a FALSE and
bogus "Thus according to you..." which NEVER is what WAS
according to me!
Right, you just attempt to set up a double standard were in sometimes "the
right of the people" doesn't apply to individuals, and other times "the
right of the people" does apply to individuals.

Your use of a double standard shows your analysis is flawed.

Anyway, I'm not going to deal with your diversionary verbosity, and I have
addressed all your claims before and shown them to be in error. So I'm not
going to ride your little merry go round again.

<Plonk>
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 04:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
"That every FREEMAN has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."
Why did this say FREEMAN (sometimes FREEHOLDER) rather than just
person/citizen/individual? FREEMAN is the ONLY singular term
that leaves out ALL the citizens/persons/individuals who are NOT
those included in the enfranchised (AND propertied!) class known
as THE PEOPLE, and so referred to in every other instance!
Incorrect. FREEMAN, in the usage of the NY courts of 1789, was a MORE
inclusive term than citizen. One could be a freeman without being a
citizen, but one could not be a citizen without being a freeman.
FREEHOLDER is a more restrictive term than FREEMAN, but still less
restrictive than citizen. A freeholder is a freeman that owns real
property.
Very interesting! Can you give actual cites from verifiable
sources in context for both these claims?

IF you are correct, and my sources are not, I will modify my
future posts accordingly; but I suspect that your particular
cites are NOT consistently used across the nation then in that
way.
Post by Steve Krulick
Why didn't DY include the Mass Const's use of BOTH collective
and individual terms in ONE sentence, which demonstrates that
Article XXIX declares that the independence of the judiciary is
essential "for the security of the rights of the people, and of
every citizen."
IF the people simply MEANT every citizen, why say both? Clearly,
to Adams, THE PEOPLE had rights, and EVERY CITIZEN had rights,
and they were not identical!
Post by Scout
as no individual
is protected under "the right of the people",
No, silly Snout! As I've only said at least a hundred times
here, EACH individual who is a MEMBER of the enumerated class,
as understood in the language of the time it was written, is
protected by invoking the rights IF the right is distributive,
as the 4th Amen rights are.
IF you are a member of the CLASS known as the PEOPLE, i.e., the
enfranchised body politic, YOUR 4th Amen right to be secure in
YOUR person and property is protected. THAT'S why it says THE
PEOPLE.
Yet one did not need to be a member of the enfranchised class to be a
member of the militia. In fact, many, if not most, active members of
militias between 1789 and 1830 were not enfranchised.
Please explain. Certainly there was no REQUIREMENT that
non-citizens (narrowest meaning) serve in the militia, a
conscript duty ONLY for Freemen who qualified, and that others
could volunteer if qualified to serve.

Do you have support for this claim? Source?
The question arises, did active members of the militia who were not
enfranchised (and thereby not members of the People by the definition
you are presenting) possess Constitutional protection of their right
to keep and bear arms?
NOT the non-distributive collective rights, no. THAT had nothing
to do with non-enfranchised individuals.

Did they have the right to "own and carry guns" particularly in
militia service? Likely, but the 2nd Amen doesn't address THAT
concern at all! It neither permits nor prohibits gun ownership
per se, which is a 10th Amen matter for the states to deal with.
David Hughes
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
David J. Hughes
2003-07-12 06:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
"That every FREEMAN has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."
Why did this say FREEMAN (sometimes FREEHOLDER) rather than just
person/citizen/individual? FREEMAN is the ONLY singular term
that leaves out ALL the citizens/persons/individuals who are NOT
those included in the enfranchised (AND propertied!) class known
as THE PEOPLE, and so referred to in every other instance!
Incorrect. FREEMAN, in the usage of the NY courts of 1789, was a MORE
inclusive term than citizen. One could be a freeman without being a
citizen, but one could not be a citizen without being a freeman.
FREEHOLDER is a more restrictive term than FREEMAN, but still less
restrictive than citizen. A freeholder is a freeman that owns real
property.
Very interesting! Can you give actual cites from verifiable
sources in context for both these claims?
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/ny01.htm

The Constitution of New York : April 20, 1777

"VII. That every male inhabitant of full age, who shall have
personally resided within one of the counties of this State for six
months immediately preceding the day of election, shall, at such
election, be entitled to vote for representatives of the said county
in assembly; if, during the time aforesaid, he shall have been a
freeholder, possessing a freehold of the value of twenty pounds,
within the said county, or have rented a tenement therein of the
yearly value of forty shillings, and been rated and actually paid
taxes to this State: Provided always, That every person who now is a
freeman of the city of Albany, or who was made a freeman of the city
of New York on or before the fourteenth day of October, in the year of
our Lord one thousand seven hundred and seventy-five, and shall be
actually and usually resident in the said cities, respectively, shall
be entitled to vote for representatives in assembly within his said
place of residence. "


You could be a freeman without being a freeholder, you could be
freeholder with out having the right to vote if you failed the
residency or age requirements
Post by Steve Krulick
IF you are correct, and my sources are not, I will modify my
future posts accordingly; but I suspect that your particular
cites are NOT consistently used across the nation then in that
way.
I suspect you are correct, I was referring only to the usage in the
colony and state of New York.

One of the great stumbling blocks of the Continental Congress was,
while composed of educated men, they found that many words and terms
had regional variations and connotations, impairing clear communication.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Steve Krulick
Why didn't DY include the Mass Const's use of BOTH collective
and individual terms in ONE sentence, which demonstrates that
Article XXIX declares that the independence of the judiciary is
essential "for the security of the rights of the people, and of
every citizen."
IF the people simply MEANT every citizen, why say both? Clearly,
to Adams, THE PEOPLE had rights, and EVERY CITIZEN had rights,
and they were not identical!
Post by Scout
as no individual
is protected under "the right of the people",
No, silly Snout! As I've only said at least a hundred times
here, EACH individual who is a MEMBER of the enumerated class,
as understood in the language of the time it was written, is
protected by invoking the rights IF the right is distributive,
as the 4th Amen rights are.
IF you are a member of the CLASS known as the PEOPLE, i.e., the
enfranchised body politic, YOUR 4th Amen right to be secure in
YOUR person and property is protected. THAT'S why it says THE
PEOPLE.
Yet one did not need to be a member of the enfranchised class to be a
member of the militia. In fact, many, if not most, active members of
militias between 1789 and 1830 were not enfranchised.
Please explain. Certainly there was no REQUIREMENT that
non-citizens (narrowest meaning) serve in the militia, a
conscript duty ONLY for Freemen who qualified, and that others
could volunteer if qualified to serve.
Do you have support for this claim? Source?
I'll dig up a source if needed, but simply enough, a man who did not
wish to spend time in the militia could pay another man to do it for
him. This explains how the militia of the New York was predominantly
composed of non citizen immigrants, Germans early on, Irish later.

During the American Civil War, the North fielded several regiments
that were almost exclusively Irish, either as direct draftees, or as
paid substitutes. The South fielded several all volunteer Irish
regiments.
The difference seems to have been how the new immigrants were treated.
In the North, it was "No Irish need apply", "No dogs or Irishmen".
In the South, it was "What can you do?" and "All I ask is a full day's
work for a full day's pay."
Post by Steve Krulick
The question arises, did active members of the militia who were not
enfranchised (and thereby not members of the People by the definition
you are presenting) possess Constitutional protection of their right
to keep and bear arms?
NOT the non-distributive collective rights, no. THAT had nothing
to do with non-enfranchised individuals.
Did they have the right to "own and carry guns" particularly in
militia service? Likely, but the 2nd Amen doesn't address THAT
concern at all! It neither permits nor prohibits gun ownership
per se, which is a 10th Amen matter for the states to deal with.
David Hughes
Jeff Strickland
2003-07-11 18:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a
right
Post by Scout
of
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that
those
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!
Thus according to you the 4th protects only the government, as no individual
is protected under "the right of the people", and the 10th repeats itself by
reserving powers to "the States" and then again to "the people" which as you
claim are those self same state governments.
Sorry, but your argument is inconsistent and contradictory when applied
universally, which means it's wrong.
Steve doesn't understand that words can not mean different things every time
they are encountered. He will never understand the truth you just explained
in 13 words. He will use 113 words to muddle and confuse the issue.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms might not have included all
people when it was written, but that is because the definition of people did
not include blacks. Clearly the definition of people was flawed at the time
of writing the 2nd, and the other 9, plus the entire rest of the
Consititutiion, but the 13th and 14th were written to correct this wrong.
The "class" of the people was not properly defined, but we do not deny
rights to those were included in the class before the error of wrong
definition was discovered, we only include more people in the class after
the error is corrected. I suppose we could erroneously defined the class as
being too large, and made the correction in a manner which limited the
class, but we didn't do that, we found that the class was too small (not in
number but in qualitied members), so we fixed the error to include those
that were previously excluded.

Steve intermixes the terms freeman and people, and probably citizen, and
because freeman excluded certain individuals, then when these individuals
became included in The People, then we can deny rights to other of The
People because of the exclusion of freemen. His position makes no sense.
When the Consittution was written, The People did not include slaves (or
women if you follow Steve's reasoning), therefore we can justify banning
guns because "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" improperly
excluded some of our citizens. The right of the people to keep and bear arms
should have included slaves and women, and because it didn't, we can ban
guns today? It makes no sense.

If we follow Steve's reasoning, then we can deny due process rights today
because slaves and women were not part of The People. We ought to be able to
deny religious freedom and free speech as well because The People did not
include blacks and women. The entire Constitution is scrapped because the
class of The People was exclusionary, and not that the exclusin is
eliminated, then the rest of the class in invalid. Yeah, right.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 03:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Yep, but don't forget, his claims of such exclusionary application applies
only to the 2nd, when you get to some other Amendment, then suddenly his
claims change, as does his definition and application of the language.
Thank you, I forgot to mention that.
Perhaps because Snout just made it up from whole cloth! But YOU
never did care about the veracity or accuracy of your sources,
did you?

HE can't cite an example of ME doing that in my own words; maybe
YOU can provide an example, one that you would have "remembered"
to mention if only you could!
If his flawed argument
Prove it's flawed, O logically-impaired one! We've nailed YOUR
illogical ass to wall dozens of time.
actually fit other instances of common use of
language, then they would begin to approach plausible, but since his own
definitions change meaning, then plausibility is out the window.
Prove it. As usual, this is just more of your blatant assertions
of made-up nonsense.

Just give an example of my definitions that "change meaning"!

Coming from the guy who says "one nation, under God" means "one
nation, where there is religion" this is too laughable.

Before you do, though, just tell me if one word can or can't
have more than one meaning depending on the context. (Quick,
Jeffyloon, what does "bear" mean?)

Jeffyloon, strawslinger apprentice, going to masters Lying Dana
and Sorry Snout for approval and commiseration! What a world!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Robert Sturgeon
2003-07-10 23:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers. But they didn't use
"states," they used "people." They must have meant "people" (and
their rights), not "states."

(rest, being not germane to the 2nd Amendment, snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge

Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 04:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant. It's confused and ignorant modern yahoos who
have problems, because they are ignorant of how the words WERE
used, and think that their low-level vocabulary is the standard
by which such highly intelligent and educated elite as Madison
and John Adams used legal language.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
But they didn't use
"states," they used "people."
They used BOTH terms, and others, as appropriate to the purpose,
such as "person" or "accused" in the Const, and you really
should research the terms in situ before making such bald
assertions:

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

BODY POLITIC:
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.

CITIZEN:
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.

3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")

Oh, I already posted all that in the post YOU snipped most of
away, so you either ignored it before, or didn't comprehende it;
either way, let's give you one more chance to address it and
show how your personal unsubstantiated opinion trumps it.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
1 plural : human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a
common interest
2 plural : HUMAN BEINGS, PERSONS -- often used in compounds instead of
persons
3 plural : the members of a family or kinship
4 plural : the mass of a community as distinguished from a special
class -- often used by Communists to distinguish Communists from other
people
5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common
culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common
language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a
politically organized group
6 : lower animals usually of a specified kind or situation
7 : the body of enfranchised citizens of a state
For legal/political/constitutional purposes, #7 is the SINGULAR
and relevant term; the others can go take a hike!

The LEGAL concept of THE PEOPLE is not numerical or even
geographical, but conceptual and political, and THAT definition
is: "the body of enfranchised citizens of the state." IT is a
SINGULAR, collective entity.

Citizens, or "individuals," included women, children and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense!

(BTW, it seems, according to the Bouvier Law Dictionary,
"citizen" only originally and primarily referred to the
enfranchised white male of age, which is ONLY the same class
that is called... THE PEOPLE, and from which the militia is
drawn as "the BODY of the PEOPLE"! Only in a wider and secondary
use did "citizen" include the non-enfranchised WHITES; blacks
before the War of the Rebellion did NOT have the title
"citizen"!)

The PEOPLE is not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular
entity, like a corporation, which also is made up of
individuals, yet it has perpetual existence and powers
independent and beyond the individuals comprising it.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
They must have meant "people" (and
their rights), not "states."
When the said people, they MEANT people... only they DIDN'T SAY
"PEOPLE" they said "THE People"! There lies part of your
confusion.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
(rest, being not germane to the 2nd Amendment, snipped)
YOU, being unable to address, much less refute, what I said,
make a hand wave dismissal with a blatant assertion of what is
or isn't germane, thus defaulting the argument.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Which would explain a lot!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Robert Sturgeon
2003-07-11 04:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment. If the
Founders meant it the way you claim, they easily could have said "the
right of the state militias to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed." But they didn't. You can spew out your twisted logic as
often as you like, but it will still be nonsense.

(rest of anti-gun ownership propaganda, snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge

Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 17:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment.
The word itself didn't have to be there as such. The use of the
word the PEOPLE is clearly meant to MEAN the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity, just as the
Bouvier cite YOU SNIPPED away made clear. IF you hadn't snipped
it away incredibly as, [guffaw] "anti-gun ownership propaganda,"
you'd not be looking so stupid now:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

BODY POLITIC:
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.

CITIZEN:
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.

3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Robert Sturgeon
If the
Founders meant it the way you claim,
No, you mean the way YOU misinterpret what I said,
Post by Robert Sturgeon
they easily could have said "the
right of the state militias to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed." But they didn't.
Of course they didn't, silly, and nobody is saying that but YOU
strawslingers. KEEPING and BEARING ARMS is a function of the
WHOLE PEOPLE collectively, NOT JUST THE MILITIA! True, in 1792,
the militia, DRAWN FROM "the body of the People" was the vast
majority of THE PEOPLE CLASS which was ONLY composed of free,
white males of age.

But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
You can spew out your twisted logic as
often as you like, but it will still be nonsense.
No, but you can prove your inability to recognize logic,
understand language or evidence, spew blatant assertions without
proving what I say IS nonsense, and otherwise parade your
ignorance and it will still be ignorance.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
(rest of anti-gun ownership propaganda, snipped)
Guffaw! What a blithering maroon! Show ONE line of the "rest of"
that material that even MENTIONS guns, much less is specifically
"anti-gun ownership propaganda"! You are so blinded by your
fantasy beliefs that you can't even read what is right before
you!

As for snipping it and dismissing it with a straw hand wave,
that is known as defaulting the argument; unable to address it,
much less refute it, you simply ignore it and call it
propaganda, yet without proving it to be so. NO debate points
for you, loser.

I can see that attempting a dialog with you is a total waste of
my time.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Robert Sturgeon
2003-07-11 23:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment.
The word itself didn't have to be there as such.
Gee, Steve, I really screwed up. Of course "state" occurs in the 2nd
Amendment. You're so anxious to make your point that you missed a
great opportunity.
Post by Steve Krulick
The use of the
word the PEOPLE is clearly meant to MEAN the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity, just as the
Bouvier cite YOU SNIPPED away made clear.
That is not even a little bit clear. If it was, why did they use
"people" in some places and "states" in others? They must have used
the words to mean two different concepts. The states and the United
States don't have rights - they have powers - justly derived from the
consent of the governed, who do have rights. If "states" and "people"
were freely interchangeable as you claim, why did they bother with
both the 9th and 10th Amendments? 9th - "The enumeration in the
Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or
disparage others retained by the people." This reserves the rights of
the people. 10th - "The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people." The reserves the powers
of the states (and people). See? People have rights. States have
powers. The 2nd Amendment guarantees rights, so it guarantees the
rights of the people, not a power of the states.
Post by Steve Krulick
IF you hadn't snipped
it away incredibly as, [guffaw] "anti-gun ownership propaganda,"
Well, it's still anti-gun propaganda, so I'm snipping it again. You
can keep spewing it out, and I'll keep snipping it. You might try
responding to the posters who are pointing out the differences between
the states and their powers, and the people and their rights. But,
oddly enough, you don't. In fact, the very title of this thread is
meaningless. States don't have rights.

--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge

Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 04:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment.
The word itself didn't have to be there as such.
Gee, Steve, I really screwed up. Of course "state" occurs in the 2nd
Amendment. You're so anxious to make your point that you missed a
great opportunity.
I was focussing on the second half; the first half seems to be
invisible to hoplophile apologists anyway.

But you are right; you screwed up.

Yet I repeat, the word itself didn't have to be there as such.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
The use of the
word the PEOPLE is clearly meant to MEAN the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity, just as the
Bouvier cite YOU SNIPPED away made clear.
That is not even a little bit clear.
Sorry you are so thick. Life must suck.

Reread Bouvier.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
If it was, why did they use
"people" in some places and "states" in others?
Duh! I've only explained this to death! And it's NOT "people"
silly, but THE PEOPLE!

No wonder you are confused.

THE PEOPLE is the collective enfranchised body politic of A
NATION in its collective and political capacity.

NATION. THE PEOPLE of THE NATION!

As opposed to "the People of the several States" as in Article
I, for example.

Or in the 10th Amen where powers are reserved to FIRST, THE
STATES, and THEN to THE PEOPLE (OF THE UNITED STATES, NOT of any
particular States). THIS was to make clear that the Const was a
creature of THE PEOPLE and not, as the AoC was, of the States.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
They must have used
the words to mean two different concepts.
Bravo! See above for details. THEY were not confused! THEY were
consistent!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
The states and the United
States don't have rights - they have powers - justly derived from the
consent of the governed, who do have rights.
Oh, I'm so terribly sorry, but you've just triggered the
automatic Mayerloon "States don't have rights, only power; only
individuals have rights!" bot! Look out, here it comes!:

In late 18th Century official documentation AND deliberations,
including the US Articles of Confederation, US Const convention
and ratification conventions, Jefferson's comments on his
contribution to the BoR, and the words of prominent
anti-ratificationist Luther Martin, is PROOF that your claim
just isn't so!

(I have put RIGHT or RIGHTS in upper case to make it easier to
spot; they do not appear that way in the original)

The Articles of Confederation

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned
Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states
of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence
Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and
Georgia.

I.The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of
America".

II.Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and
independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and RIGHT, which is
not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United
States, in Congress assembled.

IX.The United States in Congress assembled, shall have the sole
and exclusive RIGHT and power of determining on peace and war...

The United States in Congress assembled shall also have the sole
and exclusive RIGHT and power of regulating the alloy and value
of coin struck by their own authority, or by that of the
respective States -- fixing the standards of weights and
measures throughout the United States -- regulating the trade
and managing all affairs with the Indians, not members of any of
the States, provided that the legislative RIGHT of any State
within its own limits be not infringed or violated...

(Thus proving that, OFFICIALLY, at least to the authors of the
AOC, that states EACH have and retain powers, jurisdictions, AND
RIGHTS not expressly delegated, including legislative RIGHTS,
and that the US govt and Congress have RIGHTS AND POWERS.)

On to the Constitutional Convention:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field(DOCID+@lit(ed005242))
August 18-20, 1787

In Convention. -- Mr. PINCKNEY submitted to the House, in order
to be referred to the committee of detail, the following
propositions: --
"The United States shall be forever considered as one body
corporate and politic in law, and entitled to all the RIGHTS,
privileges, and immunities, which to bodies corporate do or
ought to appertain."

"To fix, and permanently establish, the seat of government of
the United States, in Which they shall possess the exclusive
RIGHT of soil and jurisdiction."

Mr. KING moved to insert, before the word "power," word "sole,"
giving the United States the exclusive RIGHT to declare the
punishment of treason.

Mr. WILSON. In cases of a general nature, treason can only be
against the United States; and in such they should have the sole
RIGHT to declare the punishment;

(THUS, according to Framers of the Constitution, The United
States is one body corporate with RIGHTS -- I guess collective
entities DO have rights after all! -- Congress has the RIGHT of
soil and jurisdiction over DC, having sole power to declare
punishment is equal to the exclusive or sole RIGHT to do so.
THIS would seem to confirm that the the FED GOVT HAS RIGHTS as
well as powers, and that, in at least THESE instances, the RIGHT
to do something is IDENTICAL to the POWER to DO IT!)

Was this an aberration, an idiosyncratic one-time-only flub?
Let's go from Philly to Hillsborough:

DEBATES IN THE CONVENTION OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, ON THE
ADOPTION OF THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field(DOCID+@lit(ed0044))

Mr. DAVIE. It is well known that Congress had a discretionary
RIGHT to raise men and money; but they had no power to do
either...

The encroachments of some states on the RIGHTS of others, and of
all on those of the Confederacy, are incontestable proofs of the
weakness and imperfection of that system.

Mr. IREDELL. But the fact is, that they have, by degrees,
increased their power to an astonishing degree, and, when they
think proper to exert it, can command almost any thing they
please. This great power they enjoy, by having the name of
representatives of the people, and the exclusive RIGHT of
originating money bills. What authority, then, will our
representatives not possess, who will really represent the
people, and equally have the RIGHT of originating money
bills?... The circumstance of their representing the great body
of the people, alone gives them great weight. This weight has
great authority added to it, by their possessing the RIGHT (a
RIGHT given to the people's representatives in Congress) of
exclusively originating money bills...

It says, expressly, that the House of Representatives shall
consist of members chosen for two years, and that the Senate
shall be composed of senators chosen for six years. At the
expiration of these terms, the RIGHT of election reverts to the
people AND the states;

Mr. SPENCER. Mr. Chairman, it appears to me that this clause,
giving this control over the time, place, and manner, of holding
elections, to Congress, does away the right of the people to
choose the representatives every second year, and impairs the
RIGHT of the state legislatures to choose the senators...

... and their knowledge of the ultimate RIGHT of Congress to
collect taxes would stimulate their exertions to raise money.
But if the power of taxation be given in the first instance to
Congress, the state legislatures will be liable to be
counteracted by the general government in all their
operations... The RIGHT of Congress to lay taxes ultimately, in
case of non-compliance with requisitions, would operate as a
penalty, and would stimulate the states to discharge their
quotas faithfully.

Gov. JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, if there be any
difference between this Constitution and the Confederation, with
respect to treaties, the Constitution is more safe than the
Confederation. We know that two members from each state have a
RIGHT, by the Confederation, to give the vote of that state, and
two thirds of the states have a RIGHT also to make treaties.

Mr. DAVIE. Mr. Chairman, although treaties are mere conventional
acts between the contracting parties, yet, by the law of
nations, they are the supreme law of the land to their
respective citizens or subjects... The power of making treaties
has, in all countries and governments, been placed in the
executive departments... ; because, by the Confederation,
Congress had power to make treaties. It was one of those
original RIGHTS of sovereignty which were vested in them; and it
was not the deficiency of constitutional authority in Congress
to make treaties that produced the necessity of a law to declare
their validity; but it was owing to the entire imbecility of the
Confederation.

Mr. SPENCER. I can see no power that can keep up the little
remains of the power of the states. Our RIGHTS are not guarded.
There is no declaration of rights, to secure to every member of
the society those unalienable rights which ought not to be given
up to any government. Such a bill of rights would be a check
upon men in power. Instead of such a bill of rights, this
Constitution has a clause which may warrant encroachments on the
power of the respective state legislatures. I know it is said
that what is not given up to the United States will be retained
by the individual states. I know it ought to be so, and should
be so understood; but, sir, it is not declared to be so.

In the Confederation it is expressly declared that all RIGHTS
and powers, of any kind whatever, of the several STATES, which
are not given up to the United States, are expressly and
absolutely retained, to be enjoyed by the STATES.

(Let me repeat that one! "ALL RIGHTS AND POWERS, of any kind
whatever, OF the several STATES... not given up... are...
retained... by the STATES"!)

In order to constitute this security, it appears to me there
ought to be such a clause in the Constitution as there was in
the Confederation, expressly declaring, that every power,
jurisdiction, and RIGHT, which are not given up by it, remain in
the STATES. Such a clause would render a bill of rights
unnecessary. But as there is no such clause, I contend that
there should be a bill of rights, ascertaining and securing the
great RIGHTS of the states and people.

Mr. MACLAINE. It would be very extraordinary to have a bill of
rights, because the powers of Congress are expressly defined;
and the very definition of them is as valid and efficacious a
check as a bill of rights could be, without the dangerous
implication of a bill of rights. The powers of Congress are
limited and enumerated. We say we have given them those powers,
but we do not say we have given them more. We retain all those
RIGHTS which we have not given away to the general government.

(Is there any doubt, in those last cites, that the RIGHTS not
given to the central govt are IDENTICAL to the POWERS? That
RIGHTS can remain in the STATES? THAT STATES HAVE RIGHTS AND
POWERS?)

Jefferson's seventh letter regarding his contribution to the BoR
process was written to Dr. Joseph Priestley, June 19, 1802,
looking back at his role. It, like the other six letters, which
were contemporary appeals for a Bill of Rights (written
12/20/87, 2/7/88, 2/12/88, 7/31/88, 3/13/89, and 3/18/89), can
be found by date at: http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff.htm:

"One passage, in the paper you enclosed me, must be corrected.
It is the following, "and all say it was yourself more than
any other individual, that planned and established it" i. e.,
the Constitution. I was in Europe when the Constitution was
planned, and never saw it till after it was established. On
receiving it I wrote strongly to Mr. Madison, urging the want of
provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press,
trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a
standing army, and an express reservation to the States of all
rights not specifically granted to the Union. He accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for these amendments,
which were agreed to and ratified by the States as they now
stand. This is all the hand I had in what related to the
Constitution."

So, "an express reservation to the States of all rights not
specifically granted to the Union"!

HERE in TJ's OWN words is MORE proof that the 10TH AMEN equated
POWERS with RIGHTS and put RIGHTS in a COLLECTIVE frame! It
proves that TJ himself believed that STATES had rights, and the
FED GOVT had rights!!! Now, this is NOT before 1789 and
speculation or debate; this is IN 1802, when TJ was already
President of the US! And here HE is commenting BACKWARDS on the
Const and BoR of over a decade earlier and STILL talking about
STATES RESERVING RIGHTS NOT GRANTED TO THE UNION, meaning the
concept and understanding of the terms was the same in 1802 as
it was in 1789 and 1787!!! That is, the mere passage of the
Const did NOT eradicate the concept or understanding of those
beliefs held before the Const. They MAY have used the word
"powers," but the concept of RIGHTS was still understood as
being something STATES and THE UNION could RESERVE, or GRANT!!!

So, was TJ deluded, mad, mistaken, disingenuous, senile,
confused, ignorant???? Or was he merely expressing the obvious
and universally-held understanding of what BOTH terms meant in
this context, and confirming that when Madison "accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for THESE amendments,"
that THAT was what Madison submitted as his intended purposes
and understandings of their meaning! That is, according to TJ,
Madison submitted an amendment for "the substitution of militia
for a standing army" and another for "an express reservation to
the States of all rights not specifically granted to the Union"!
And it was THESE [purposes behind the] amendments "which were
agreed to and ratified by the States as they now stand."

In the first letter, 12/20/87, TJ says:
"I have a right to nothing, which another has a right to take
away; and Congress will have a right to take away trials by jury
in all civil cases." Again Congress, which is a "collective"
govt entity, and NOT an individual, has a RIGHT! Is this not
identical to POWER?!!


Luther Martin Writings and Biography
http://www.lexrex.com/bios/lmartin.htm

The Genuine Information, delivered to the Legislature of the
State of Maryland, relative to the Proceedings of the General
Convention, held at Philadelphia, in 1787, by Luther Martin,
Esq., Attorney-General of Maryland, and one of the Delegates in
the said Convention.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field(DOCID+@lit(ed001181))

1. Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that a
national government ought to be established, consisting of a
supreme legislative, judiciary, and executive...
5. That each branch ought to possess the RIGHT of originating
acts.
6. That the national legislature ought to be empowered to enjoy
the legislative RIGHTS vested in Congress by the Confederation,
and moreover to legislate in all cases to which the separate
states are incompetent, or in which the harmony of the United
States may be interrupted by the exercise of individual
legislation;
10. That the national executive shall have a RIGHT to negative
any legislative act, which shall not afterwards be passed unless
by two thirds of each branch of the national legislature.

It was denied that the equality of suffrage was originally
agreed to on principles of necessity or expediency; on the
contrary, that it was adopted on the principles of the RIGHTS of
men, and the RIGHTS of states, which were then well known, and
which then influenced our conduct, although now they seem to be
forgotten. For this, the Journals of Congress were appealed
to... the most convincing proof it was agreed to, and adopted,
not from necessity, but upon a full conviction that, according
to the principles of free government, the states had a RIGHT to
that equality of suffrage...

... we would not labor under the imputation of being unwilling
to form a strong and energetic federal government; but we would
publish the system which we approved, and also that which we
opposed, and leave it to our country and the world at large to
judge, between us, who best understood the RIGHTS of freemen and
free states, and who best advocated them;

The states have a RIGHT to an equality of representation. This
is secured to us by our present Articles of Confederation; we
are in possession of this RIGHT. It is now to be torn from us.
What security can you give us that, when you get the power the
proposed system will give you, when you have men and money, you
will not force from the states that equality of suffrage, in the
second branch, which you now deny to be their RIGHT, and only
give up from absolute necessity?

... that it is the state governments which are to watch over and
protect the RIGHTS of the individual, whether rich or poor, or
of moderate circumstances, and in which the democratic and
aristocratic influence or principles are to be so blended,
modified, and checked, as to prevent oppression and injury --
that the federal government is to guard and protect the states
and their RIGHTS, and to regulate their common concerns...

Another consideration, Mr. Speaker, it was thought, ought to
have great weight to prove that the smaller states cannot depend
on the Senate for the preservation of their RIGHTS, either
against large and ambitious states, or against an ambitious,
aspiring President.

It was my opinion, sir, that the states ought not to be totally
deprived of the RIGHT to emit bills of credit, and that, as we
had not given an authority to the general government for that
purpose, it was the more necessary to retain it in the states.

That it was inconsistent with the RIGHTS of free and independent
states to have their territory dismembered without their
consent, was the principal argument used by the opponents of
this proposition.

That it was inconsistent with the RIGHTS of free and independent
states to have their territory dismembered without their
consent, was the principal argument used by the opponents of
this proposition. The truth of the objection we readily
admitted, but at the same time insisted that it was not more
inconsistent with the RIGHTS of free and independent states than
that inequality of suffrage and power which the larger states
had extorted from the others; and that, if the smaller states
yielded up their RIGHTS in that instance, they were entitled to
demand from the states of extensive territory a surrender of
their RIGHTS in this instance; and in a particular manner, as it
was equally necessary for the true interest and happiness of the
citizens of their own states, as of the Union. But, sir,
although, when the large states demanded undue and improper
sacrifices to be made to their pride and ambition, they treated
the RIGHTS of free states with more contempt than ever a British
Parliament treated the RIGHTS of her colonial establishment,
yet, when a reasonable and necessary sacrifice was asked from
them, they spurned the idea with ineffable disdain. They then
perfectly understood the full value and the sacred obligation of
state RIGHTS, and at the least attempt to infringe them, where
they were concerned, they were tremblingly alive, and agonized
at every pore.

The people of the different states never made any objection to
the manner in which the Articles of Confederation were formed or
ratified, or to the mode by which alterations were to be made in
that government: with the RIGHTS of their respective states they
wished not to interfere. Nor do I believe the people, in their
individual capacity, would ever have expected or desired to have
been appealed to on the present occasion, in violation of the
RIGHTS of their respective states, if the favorers of the
proposed Constitution, imagining they had a better chance of
forcing it to be adopted by a hasty appeal to the people at
large, (who could not be so good judges of the dangerous
consequence,) had not insisted upon this mode.

When I took my seat in the Convention, I found them attempting
to bring forward a system which, I was sure, never had entered
into the contemplation of those I had the honor to represent,
and which, upon the fullest consideration, I considered not only
injurious to the interest and RIGHTS of this state, but also
incompatible with the political happiness and freedom of the
states in general.

I, sir, am in that predicament. I have the honor to hold an
appointment in this state. Had it been considered any objection,
I presume I should not have been appointed to the Convention. If
it could have had any effect on my mind, it would only be that
of warming my heart with gratitude, and rendering me more
anxious to promote the true interest of that state which has
conferred on me the obligation, and to heighten my guilt, had I
joined in sacrificing its essential RIGHTS.

(And, as a kicker, here's some of what Martin had to say about
the militia; HIS argument mentions the ONLY PURPOSE for which a
militia amendment was sought by the anti-feds, the ONLY argument
EVER mentioned in ALL the militia debates:)

These observations, sir, procured from some of the members an
open avowal of those reasons by which we believed, before, that
they were actuated. They said that, as the states would be
opposed to the general government, and at enmity with it,
--which, as I have already observed, they assumed as a
principle,

--if the militia was under the control and the authority of the
respective states, it would enable them to thwart and oppose the
general government.

They said the states ought to be at the mercy of the general
government, and therefore that the militia ought to be put under
its power, and not suffered to remain under the power of the
respective states. In answer to these declarations, it was urged
that if, after having retained to the general government the
great powers already granted,--and among those, that of raising
and keeping up regular troops without limitation,

--the power over the militia should be taken away from the
states, and also given to the general government, it ought to be
considered as the last coup de grace to the state governments;

that it must be the most convincing proof, the advocates of this
system design the destruction of the state governments, and that
no professions to the contrary ought to be trusted;

--and that every state in the Union ought to reject such a
system with indignation, since, if the general government should
attempt to oppress and enslave them, they could not have any
possible means of self-defence;

(Hmmm. Is THIS what was meant by "self-defense"? Is this an
INDIVIDUAL right to private self-defense or a collective right?
Whose right is being infringed? Behold:)

because the proposed system, taking away from the states the
RIGHT of organizing, arming, and disciplining of the militia,
the first attempt made by a state to put the militia in a
situation to counteract the arbitrary measures of the general
government would be construed into an act to rebellion or
treason, and Congress would instantly march their troops into
the state.

(Ah, it's a RIGHT of the states to organize, arm, and discipline
their militias! It's a STATE RIGHT of public COMMON defense,
where they defend THEMSELVES! This is what a leading
anti-federalist thought and THEY were the ones pushing FOR an
amendment to satisfy THIS concern ONLY; IF there were another
concern, wouldn't he mention it to bolster his argument?)

It was further observed that, when a government wishes to
deprive their citizens of freedom, and reduce them to slavery,
it generally makes use of a standing army for that purpose, and
leaves the militia in a situation as contemptible as possible,
lest they might oppose its arbitrary designs--that in this
system we give the general government every provision it could
wish for, and even invite it to subvert the liberties of the
states and their citizens,

(So states not only have RIGHTS, they have LIBERTIES too!)

since we give it the RIGHT to increase and keep up a standing
army as numerous as it would wish, and, by placing the militia
under its power, enable it to leave the militia totally
unorganized, undisciplined, and even to disarm them;

(So the Fed Govt has the RIGHT to keep a standing army, and can
"disarm" the militia when under ITS power by FAILING to arm it,
as George Mason said: "The militia may be here destroyed by that
method which has been practiced in other parts of the world
before; that is, by rendering them useless - by DISARMING them.
Under various pretenses, Congress may neglect to provide for
arming and disciplining the militia; and the state governments
cannot do it, for Congress has an exclusive right to arm
them...")

while the citizens, so far from complaining of this neglect,
might even esteem it a favor in the general government, as
thereby they would be freed from the burden of militia duties,
and left to their own private occupations and pleasures."



Look, here's the definition, the FIRST definition, of POWER from
the Bouvier Law Dictionary:

http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_p.htm

POWER. This is either inherent or derivative. The former is the
RIGHT [emph added], ability, or faculty of doing something,
without receiving that RIGHT, ability, or faculty from another.
The people have the power to establish a form of government, or
to change one already established. A father has the legal power
to chastise his son; a master, his apprentice.

Then look at RIGHT:

http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_r.htm
7. Political rights consist in the POWER [emph added] to
participate, directly or indirectly, in the establishment or
management of government. These political rights are fixed by
the constitution. Every citizen has the right of voting for
public officers, and of being elected; these are the political
rights which the humblest citizen possesses.

Thus, the very sourcebook of the way THEY used words has them
used interchangeably, AS I claimed!


I look forward to your referenced and scholarly refutation of
the above!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
If "states" and "people"
were freely interchangeable as you claim,
NOT FREELY interchangeable, only certain of the several
definitions in certain uses; one minor definition in Bouvier is
the state govt apparatus. THAT is not the use that is equivalent
to THE PEOPLE when the terms ARE used interchangelably. Use your
head, man! A 10-year-old could look at the various definitions
and see which one is relevant and referred to.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
why did they bother with
both the 9th and 10th Amendments? 9th - "The enumeration in the
Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or
disparage others retained by the people."
HERE it is THE PEOPLE OF THE NATION, the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity. The Const was
NOT a creation of the STATES!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
This reserves the rights of
the people. 10th - "The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people." The reserves the powers
of the states (and people).
THE STATES are the formerly free and independent States, now in
a stronger federal union.

THE PEOPLE is THE PEOPLE OF THE NATION, the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity. This is the
same WE THE PEOPLE who established and ordained the Const
originally, NOT the state legislatures or sovereign states who
created the AoC. SEE?
Post by Robert Sturgeon
See? People have rights.
And powers!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
States have
powers.
And Rights! See above. Just because the Const didn't say it
explicitly, the authors were absolutely clear on this point, as
they even used the two words interchangeably, even AFTER the
Const was ratified (TJ's letter)
Post by Robert Sturgeon
The 2nd Amendment guarantees rights, so it guarantees the
rights of the people, not a power of the states.
Straw. There are SEVERAL rights implied by the 2nd Amen and
"power" doesn't have to be mentioned:

THE PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms. This refers to
SEVERAL rights.

THE COLLECTIVE or COMMUNITARIAN right is that the EBP can
democratically organize, control, arm and maintain the readiness
and upkeep of the state's militia or military function; this
right is NOT fully distributive (does any one individual "keep"
all the inventory of the WHOLE militia, or can any one
militiaman decide unilaterally to "bear arms" against the
neighboring state?).

THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT (other than the conscientious objector
right Madison sought) is that EACH qualified MEMBER of the
PEOPLE CLASS who is drawn from the "body of the PEOPLE" and thus
is IN the militia, may serve in the militia and may keep HIS
personal militia weapons at home, if desired. Also, an
individual member of the PEOPLE class, whether in the militia or
not, may participate in the COLLECTIVE right to the extent that
he may VOTE on his civilian state reps who control the militia,
and some of his officers who run the militia, or otherwise get
more directly involved in the operation of the militia on an
administrative level.

There's also the RIGHT of the militias to survive and be
preserved, and the right of the states to maintain those state
militias, and use them for state purposes, and appoint the
officers and administer the discipline.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
IF you hadn't snipped
it away incredibly as, [guffaw] "anti-gun ownership propaganda,"
Well, it's still anti-gun propaganda,
Prove it! Just calling it so doesn't make it so, silly. Hell,
where do I even MENTION guns? Where is a single "anti-gun"
comment made? Where is there anything remotely labeled
"propaganda" in these cites?
Post by Robert Sturgeon
so I'm snipping it again. You
can keep spewing it out, and I'll keep snipping it.
So you keep defaulting! You must be some coward to lack the guts
and brains to even attempt to refute it!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
You might try
responding to the posters who are pointing out the differences between
the states and their powers, and the people and their rights.
Bogus distinction. I have addressed it over and over, even
though it's just a side-stepping diversion from my challenges
and refutations.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
But,
oddly enough, you don't.
Hard to see it when you snip and hide!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
In fact, the very title of this thread is
meaningless. States don't have rights.
Man, you're easier than shooting fish in a barrel!

See the evidence above, loser.

I have shown how your blatant assertion is false.

You are welcome to substantiate YOUR claim with comparable
evidence of equal authority.

I won't hold my breath, and won't be surprised if you disappear!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Leif Rakur
2003-07-13 14:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment.
The word itself didn't have to be there as such.
Gee, Steve, I really screwed up. Of course "state" occurs in the 2nd
Amendment. You're so anxious to make your point that you missed a
great opportunity.
I was focussing on the second half; the first half seems to be
invisible to hoplophile apologists anyway.
But you are right; you screwed up.
Yet I repeat, the word itself didn't have to be there as such.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
The use of the
word the PEOPLE is clearly meant to MEAN the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity, just as the
Bouvier cite YOU SNIPPED away made clear.
That is not even a little bit clear.
Sorry you are so thick. Life must suck.
Reread Bouvier.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
If it was, why did they use
"people" in some places and "states" in others?
Duh! I've only explained this to death! And it's NOT "people"
silly, but THE PEOPLE!
No wonder you are confused.
THE PEOPLE is the collective enfranchised body politic of A
NATION in its collective and political capacity.
NATION. THE PEOPLE of THE NATION!
As opposed to "the People of the several States" as in Article
I, for example.
Or in the 10th Amen where powers are reserved to FIRST, THE
STATES, and THEN to THE PEOPLE (OF THE UNITED STATES, NOT of any
particular States). THIS was to make clear that the Const was a
creature of THE PEOPLE and not, as the AoC was, of the States.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
They must have used
the words to mean two different concepts.
Bravo! See above for details. THEY were not confused! THEY were
consistent!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
The states and the United
States don't have rights - they have powers - justly derived from the
consent of the governed, who do have rights.
Oh, I'm so terribly sorry, but you've just triggered the
automatic Mayerloon "States don't have rights, only power; only
In late 18th Century official documentation AND deliberations,
including the US Articles of Confederation, US Const convention
and ratification conventions, Jefferson's comments on his
contribution to the BoR, and the words of prominent
anti-ratificationist Luther Martin, is PROOF that your claim
just isn't so!
(I have put RIGHT or RIGHTS in upper case to make it easier to
spot; they do not appear that way in the original)
The Articles of Confederation
To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned
Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.
Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states
of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence
Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and
Georgia.
I.The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of
America".
II.Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and
independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and RIGHT, which is
not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United
States, in Congress assembled.
IX.The United States in Congress assembled, shall have the sole
and exclusive RIGHT and power of determining on peace and war...
The United States in Congress assembled shall also have the sole
and exclusive RIGHT and power of regulating the alloy and value
of coin struck by their own authority, or by that of the
respective States -- fixing the standards of weights and
measures throughout the United States -- regulating the trade
and managing all affairs with the Indians, not members of any of
the States, provided that the legislative RIGHT of any State
within its own limits be not infringed or violated...
(Thus proving that, OFFICIALLY, at least to the authors of the
AOC, that states EACH have and retain powers, jurisdictions, AND
RIGHTS not expressly delegated, including legislative RIGHTS,
and that the US govt and Congress have RIGHTS AND POWERS.)
August 18-20, 1787
In Convention. -- Mr. PINCKNEY submitted to the House, in order
to be referred to the committee of detail, the following
propositions: --
"The United States shall be forever considered as one body
corporate and politic in law, and entitled to all the RIGHTS,
privileges, and immunities, which to bodies corporate do or
ought to appertain."
"To fix, and permanently establish, the seat of government of
the United States, in Which they shall possess the exclusive
RIGHT of soil and jurisdiction."
Mr. KING moved to insert, before the word "power," word "sole,"
giving the United States the exclusive RIGHT to declare the
punishment of treason.
Mr. WILSON. In cases of a general nature, treason can only be
against the United States; and in such they should have the sole
RIGHT to declare the punishment;
(THUS, according to Framers of the Constitution, The United
States is one body corporate with RIGHTS -- I guess collective
entities DO have rights after all! -- Congress has the RIGHT of
soil and jurisdiction over DC, having sole power to declare
punishment is equal to the exclusive or sole RIGHT to do so.
THIS would seem to confirm that the the FED GOVT HAS RIGHTS as
well as powers, and that, in at least THESE instances, the RIGHT
to do something is IDENTICAL to the POWER to DO IT!)
Was this an aberration, an idiosyncratic one-time-only flub?
DEBATES IN THE CONVENTION OF THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, ON THE
ADOPTION OF THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION.
Mr. DAVIE. It is well known that Congress had a discretionary
RIGHT to raise men and money; but they had no power to do
either...
The encroachments of some states on the RIGHTS of others, and of
all on those of the Confederacy, are incontestable proofs of the
weakness and imperfection of that system.
Mr. IREDELL. But the fact is, that they have, by degrees,
increased their power to an astonishing degree, and, when they
think proper to exert it, can command almost any thing they
please. This great power they enjoy, by having the name of
representatives of the people, and the exclusive RIGHT of
originating money bills. What authority, then, will our
representatives not possess, who will really represent the
people, and equally have the RIGHT of originating money
bills?... The circumstance of their representing the great body
of the people, alone gives them great weight. This weight has
great authority added to it, by their possessing the RIGHT (a
RIGHT given to the people's representatives in Congress) of
exclusively originating money bills...
It says, expressly, that the House of Representatives shall
consist of members chosen for two years, and that the Senate
shall be composed of senators chosen for six years. At the
expiration of these terms, the RIGHT of election reverts to the
people AND the states;
Mr. SPENCER. Mr. Chairman, it appears to me that this clause,
giving this control over the time, place, and manner, of holding
elections, to Congress, does away the right of the people to
choose the representatives every second year, and impairs the
RIGHT of the state legislatures to choose the senators...
... and their knowledge of the ultimate RIGHT of Congress to
collect taxes would stimulate their exertions to raise money.
But if the power of taxation be given in the first instance to
Congress, the state legislatures will be liable to be
counteracted by the general government in all their
operations... The RIGHT of Congress to lay taxes ultimately, in
case of non-compliance with requisitions, would operate as a
penalty, and would stimulate the states to discharge their
quotas faithfully.
Gov. JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, if there be any
difference between this Constitution and the Confederation, with
respect to treaties, the Constitution is more safe than the
Confederation. We know that two members from each state have a
RIGHT, by the Confederation, to give the vote of that state, and
two thirds of the states have a RIGHT also to make treaties.
Mr. DAVIE. Mr. Chairman, although treaties are mere conventional
acts between the contracting parties, yet, by the law of
nations, they are the supreme law of the land to their
respective citizens or subjects... The power of making treaties
has, in all countries and governments, been placed in the
executive departments... ; because, by the Confederation,
Congress had power to make treaties. It was one of those
original RIGHTS of sovereignty which were vested in them; and it
was not the deficiency of constitutional authority in Congress
to make treaties that produced the necessity of a law to declare
their validity; but it was owing to the entire imbecility of the
Confederation.
Mr. SPENCER. I can see no power that can keep up the little
remains of the power of the states. Our RIGHTS are not guarded.
There is no declaration of rights, to secure to every member of
the society those unalienable rights which ought not to be given
up to any government. Such a bill of rights would be a check
upon men in power. Instead of such a bill of rights, this
Constitution has a clause which may warrant encroachments on the
power of the respective state legislatures. I know it is said
that what is not given up to the United States will be retained
by the individual states. I know it ought to be so, and should
be so understood; but, sir, it is not declared to be so.
In the Confederation it is expressly declared that all RIGHTS
and powers, of any kind whatever, of the several STATES, which
are not given up to the United States, are expressly and
absolutely retained, to be enjoyed by the STATES.
(Let me repeat that one! "ALL RIGHTS AND POWERS, of any kind
whatever, OF the several STATES... not given up... are...
retained... by the STATES"!)
In order to constitute this security, it appears to me there
ought to be such a clause in the Constitution as there was in
the Confederation, expressly declaring, that every power,
jurisdiction, and RIGHT, which are not given up by it, remain in
the STATES. Such a clause would render a bill of rights
unnecessary. But as there is no such clause, I contend that
there should be a bill of rights, ascertaining and securing the
great RIGHTS of the states and people.
Mr. MACLAINE. It would be very extraordinary to have a bill of
rights, because the powers of Congress are expressly defined;
and the very definition of them is as valid and efficacious a
check as a bill of rights could be, without the dangerous
implication of a bill of rights. The powers of Congress are
limited and enumerated. We say we have given them those powers,
but we do not say we have given them more. We retain all those
RIGHTS which we have not given away to the general government.
(Is there any doubt, in those last cites, that the RIGHTS not
given to the central govt are IDENTICAL to the POWERS? That
RIGHTS can remain in the STATES? THAT STATES HAVE RIGHTS AND
POWERS?)
Jefferson's seventh letter regarding his contribution to the BoR
process was written to Dr. Joseph Priestley, June 19, 1802,
looking back at his role. It, like the other six letters, which
were contemporary appeals for a Bill of Rights (written
12/20/87, 2/7/88, 2/12/88, 7/31/88, 3/13/89, and 3/18/89), can
"One passage, in the paper you enclosed me, must be corrected.
It is the following, "and all say it was yourself more than
any other individual, that planned and established it" i. e.,
the Constitution. I was in Europe when the Constitution was
planned, and never saw it till after it was established. On
receiving it I wrote strongly to Mr. Madison, urging the want of
provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press,
trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a
standing army, and an express reservation to the States of all
rights not specifically granted to the Union. He accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for these amendments,
which were agreed to and ratified by the States as they now
stand. This is all the hand I had in what related to the
Constitution."
So, "an express reservation to the States of all rights not
specifically granted to the Union"!
HERE in TJ's OWN words is MORE proof that the 10TH AMEN equated
POWERS with RIGHTS and put RIGHTS in a COLLECTIVE frame! It
proves that TJ himself believed that STATES had rights, and the
FED GOVT had rights!!! Now, this is NOT before 1789 and
speculation or debate; this is IN 1802, when TJ was already
President of the US! And here HE is commenting BACKWARDS on the
Const and BoR of over a decade earlier and STILL talking about
STATES RESERVING RIGHTS NOT GRANTED TO THE UNION, meaning the
concept and understanding of the terms was the same in 1802 as
it was in 1789 and 1787!!! That is, the mere passage of the
Const did NOT eradicate the concept or understanding of those
beliefs held before the Const. They MAY have used the word
"powers," but the concept of RIGHTS was still understood as
being something STATES and THE UNION could RESERVE, or GRANT!!!
So, was TJ deluded, mad, mistaken, disingenuous, senile,
confused, ignorant???? Or was he merely expressing the obvious
and universally-held understanding of what BOTH terms meant in
this context, and confirming that when Madison "accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for THESE amendments,"
that THAT was what Madison submitted as his intended purposes
and understandings of their meaning! That is, according to TJ,
Madison submitted an amendment for "the substitution of militia
for a standing army" and another for "an express reservation to
the States of all rights not specifically granted to the Union"!
And it was THESE [purposes behind the] amendments "which were
agreed to and ratified by the States as they now stand."
"I have a right to nothing, which another has a right to take
away; and Congress will have a right to take away trials by jury
in all civil cases." Again Congress, which is a "collective"
govt entity, and NOT an individual, has a RIGHT! Is this not
identical to POWER?!!
Luther Martin Writings and Biography
http://www.lexrex.com/bios/lmartin.htm
The Genuine Information, delivered to the Legislature of the
State of Maryland, relative to the Proceedings of the General
Convention, held at Philadelphia, in 1787, by Luther Martin,
Esq., Attorney-General of Maryland, and one of the Delegates in
the said Convention.
1. Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that a
national government ought to be established, consisting of a
supreme legislative, judiciary, and executive...
5. That each branch ought to possess the RIGHT of originating
acts.
6. That the national legislature ought to be empowered to enjoy
the legislative RIGHTS vested in Congress by the Confederation,
and moreover to legislate in all cases to which the separate
states are incompetent, or in which the harmony of the United
States may be interrupted by the exercise of individual
legislation;
10. That the national executive shall have a RIGHT to negative
any legislative act, which shall not afterwards be passed unless
by two thirds of each branch of the national legislature.
It was denied that the equality of suffrage was originally
agreed to on principles of necessity or expediency; on the
contrary, that it was adopted on the principles of the RIGHTS of
men, and the RIGHTS of states, which were then well known, and
which then influenced our conduct, although now they seem to be
forgotten. For this, the Journals of Congress were appealed
to... the most convincing proof it was agreed to, and adopted,
not from necessity, but upon a full conviction that, according
to the principles of free government, the states had a RIGHT to
that equality of suffrage...
... we would not labor under the imputation of being unwilling
to form a strong and energetic federal government; but we would
publish the system which we approved, and also that which we
opposed, and leave it to our country and the world at large to
judge, between us, who best understood the RIGHTS of freemen and
free states, and who best advocated them;
The states have a RIGHT to an equality of representation. This
is secured to us by our present Articles of Confederation; we
are in possession of this RIGHT. It is now to be torn from us.
What security can you give us that, when you get the power the
proposed system will give you, when you have men and money, you
will not force from the states that equality of suffrage, in the
second branch, which you now deny to be their RIGHT, and only
give up from absolute necessity?
... that it is the state governments which are to watch over and
protect the RIGHTS of the individual, whether rich or poor, or
of moderate circumstances, and in which the democratic and
aristocratic influence or principles are to be so blended,
modified, and checked, as to prevent oppression and injury --
that the federal government is to guard and protect the states
and their RIGHTS, and to regulate their common concerns...
Another consideration, Mr. Speaker, it was thought, ought to
have great weight to prove that the smaller states cannot depend
on the Senate for the preservation of their RIGHTS, either
against large and ambitious states, or against an ambitious,
aspiring President.
It was my opinion, sir, that the states ought not to be totally
deprived of the RIGHT to emit bills of credit, and that, as we
had not given an authority to the general government for that
purpose, it was the more necessary to retain it in the states.
That it was inconsistent with the RIGHTS of free and independent
states to have their territory dismembered without their
consent, was the principal argument used by the opponents of
this proposition.
That it was inconsistent with the RIGHTS of free and independent
states to have their territory dismembered without their
consent, was the principal argument used by the opponents of
this proposition. The truth of the objection we readily
admitted, but at the same time insisted that it was not more
inconsistent with the RIGHTS of free and independent states than
that inequality of suffrage and power which the larger states
had extorted from the others; and that, if the smaller states
yielded up their RIGHTS in that instance, they were entitled to
demand from the states of extensive territory a surrender of
their RIGHTS in this instance; and in a particular manner, as it
was equally necessary for the true interest and happiness of the
citizens of their own states, as of the Union. But, sir,
although, when the large states demanded undue and improper
sacrifices to be made to their pride and ambition, they treated
the RIGHTS of free states with more contempt than ever a British
Parliament treated the RIGHTS of her colonial establishment,
yet, when a reasonable and necessary sacrifice was asked from
them, they spurned the idea with ineffable disdain. They then
perfectly understood the full value and the sacred obligation of
state RIGHTS, and at the least attempt to infringe them, where
they were concerned, they were tremblingly alive, and agonized
at every pore.
The people of the different states never made any objection to
the manner in which the Articles of Confederation were formed or
ratified, or to the mode by which alterations were to be made in
that government: with the RIGHTS of their respective states they
wished not to interfere. Nor do I believe the people, in their
individual capacity, would ever have expected or desired to have
been appealed to on the present occasion, in violation of the
RIGHTS of their respective states, if the favorers of the
proposed Constitution, imagining they had a better chance of
forcing it to be adopted by a hasty appeal to the people at
large, (who could not be so good judges of the dangerous
consequence,) had not insisted upon this mode.
When I took my seat in the Convention, I found them attempting
to bring forward a system which, I was sure, never had entered
into the contemplation of those I had the honor to represent,
and which, upon the fullest consideration, I considered not only
injurious to the interest and RIGHTS of this state, but also
incompatible with the political happiness and freedom of the
states in general.
I, sir, am in that predicament. I have the honor to hold an
appointment in this state. Had it been considered any objection,
I presume I should not have been appointed to the Convention. If
it could have had any effect on my mind, it would only be that
of warming my heart with gratitude, and rendering me more
anxious to promote the true interest of that state which has
conferred on me the obligation, and to heighten my guilt, had I
joined in sacrificing its essential RIGHTS.
(And, as a kicker, here's some of what Martin had to say about
the militia; HIS argument mentions the ONLY PURPOSE for which a
militia amendment was sought by the anti-feds, the ONLY argument
EVER mentioned in ALL the militia debates:)
These observations, sir, procured from some of the members an
open avowal of those reasons by which we believed, before, that
they were actuated. They said that, as the states would be
opposed to the general government, and at enmity with it,
--which, as I have already observed, they assumed as a
principle,
--if the militia was under the control and the authority of the
respective states, it would enable them to thwart and oppose the
general government.
They said the states ought to be at the mercy of the general
government, and therefore that the militia ought to be put under
its power, and not suffered to remain under the power of the
respective states. In answer to these declarations, it was urged
that if, after having retained to the general government the
great powers already granted,--and among those, that of raising
and keeping up regular troops without limitation,
--the power over the militia should be taken away from the
states, and also given to the general government, it ought to be
considered as the last coup de grace to the state governments;
that it must be the most convincing proof, the advocates of this
system design the destruction of the state governments, and that
no professions to the contrary ought to be trusted;
--and that every state in the Union ought to reject such a
system with indignation, since, if the general government should
attempt to oppress and enslave them, they could not have any
possible means of self-defence;
(Hmmm. Is THIS what was meant by "self-defense"? Is this an
INDIVIDUAL right to private self-defense or a collective right?
Whose right is being infringed? Behold:)
because the proposed system, taking away from the states the
RIGHT of organizing, arming, and disciplining of the militia,
the first attempt made by a state to put the militia in a
situation to counteract the arbitrary measures of the general
government would be construed into an act to rebellion or
treason, and Congress would instantly march their troops into
the state.
(Ah, it's a RIGHT of the states to organize, arm, and discipline
their militias! It's a STATE RIGHT of public COMMON defense,
where they defend THEMSELVES! This is what a leading
anti-federalist thought and THEY were the ones pushing FOR an
amendment to satisfy THIS concern ONLY; IF there were another
concern, wouldn't he mention it to bolster his argument?)
It was further observed that, when a government wishes to
deprive their citizens of freedom, and reduce them to slavery,
it generally makes use of a standing army for that purpose, and
leaves the militia in a situation as contemptible as possible,
lest they might oppose its arbitrary designs--that in this
system we give the general government every provision it could
wish for, and even invite it to subvert the liberties of the
states and their citizens,
(So states not only have RIGHTS, they have LIBERTIES too!)
since we give it the RIGHT to increase and keep up a standing
army as numerous as it would wish, and, by placing the militia
under its power, enable it to leave the militia totally
unorganized, undisciplined, and even to disarm them;
(So the Fed Govt has the RIGHT to keep a standing army, and can
"disarm" the militia when under ITS power by FAILING to arm it,
as George Mason said: "The militia may be here destroyed by that
method which has been practiced in other parts of the world
before; that is, by rendering them useless - by DISARMING them.
Under various pretenses, Congress may neglect to provide for
arming and disciplining the militia; and the state governments
cannot do it, for Congress has an exclusive right to arm
them...")
while the citizens, so far from complaining of this neglect,
might even esteem it a favor in the general government, as
thereby they would be freed from the burden of militia duties,
and left to their own private occupations and pleasures."
Look, here's the definition, the FIRST definition, of POWER from
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_p.htm
POWER. This is either inherent or derivative. The former is the
RIGHT [emph added], ability, or faculty of doing something,
without receiving that RIGHT, ability, or faculty from another.
The people have the power to establish a form of government, or
to change one already established. A father has the legal power
to chastise his son; a master, his apprentice.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_r.htm
7. Political rights consist in the POWER [emph added] to
participate, directly or indirectly, in the establishment or
management of government. These political rights are fixed by
the constitution. Every citizen has the right of voting for
public officers, and of being elected; these are the political
rights which the humblest citizen possesses.
Thus, the very sourcebook of the way THEY used words has them
used interchangeably, AS I claimed!
I look forward to your referenced and scholarly refutation of
the above!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
If "states" and "people"
were freely interchangeable as you claim,
NOT FREELY interchangeable, only certain of the several
definitions in certain uses; one minor definition in Bouvier is
the state govt apparatus. THAT is not the use that is equivalent
to THE PEOPLE when the terms ARE used interchangelably. Use your
head, man! A 10-year-old could look at the various definitions
and see which one is relevant and referred to.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
why did they bother with
both the 9th and 10th Amendments? 9th - "The enumeration in the
Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or
disparage others retained by the people."
HERE it is THE PEOPLE OF THE NATION, the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity. The Const was
NOT a creation of the STATES!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
This reserves the rights of
the people. 10th - "The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people." The reserves the powers
of the states (and people).
THE STATES are the formerly free and independent States, now in
a stronger federal union.
THE PEOPLE is THE PEOPLE OF THE NATION, the enfranchised body
politic in its collective and political capacity. This is the
same WE THE PEOPLE who established and ordained the Const
originally, NOT the state legislatures or sovereign states who
created the AoC. SEE?
Post by Robert Sturgeon
See? People have rights.
And powers!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
States have
powers.
And Rights! See above. Just because the Const didn't say it
explicitly, the authors were absolutely clear on this point, as
they even used the two words interchangeably, even AFTER the
Const was ratified (TJ's letter)
Post by Robert Sturgeon
The 2nd Amendment guarantees rights, so it guarantees the
rights of the people, not a power of the states.
Straw. There are SEVERAL rights implied by the 2nd Amen and
THE PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms. This refers to
SEVERAL rights.
THE COLLECTIVE or COMMUNITARIAN right is that the EBP can
democratically organize, control, arm and maintain the readiness
and upkeep of the state's militia or military function; this
right is NOT fully distributive (does any one individual "keep"
all the inventory of the WHOLE militia, or can any one
militiaman decide unilaterally to "bear arms" against the
neighboring state?).
THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT (other than the conscientious objector
right Madison sought) is that EACH qualified MEMBER of the
PEOPLE CLASS who is drawn from the "body of the PEOPLE" and thus
is IN the militia, may serve in the militia and may keep HIS
personal militia weapons at home, if desired. Also, an
individual member of the PEOPLE class, whether in the militia or
not, may participate in the COLLECTIVE right to the extent that
he may VOTE on his civilian state reps who control the militia,
and some of his officers who run the militia, or otherwise get
more directly involved in the operation of the militia on an
administrative level.
There's also the RIGHT of the militias to survive and be
preserved, and the right of the states to maintain those state
militias, and use them for state purposes, and appoint the
officers and administer the discipline.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
IF you hadn't snipped
it away incredibly as, [guffaw] "anti-gun ownership propaganda,"
Well, it's still anti-gun propaganda,
Prove it! Just calling it so doesn't make it so, silly. Hell,
where do I even MENTION guns? Where is a single "anti-gun"
comment made? Where is there anything remotely labeled
"propaganda" in these cites?
Post by Robert Sturgeon
so I'm snipping it again. You
can keep spewing it out, and I'll keep snipping it.
So you keep defaulting! You must be some coward to lack the guts
and brains to even attempt to refute it!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
You might try
responding to the posters who are pointing out the differences between
the states and their powers, and the people and their rights.
Bogus distinction. I have addressed it over and over, even
though it's just a side-stepping diversion from my challenges
and refutations.
Post by Robert Sturgeon
But,
oddly enough, you don't.
Hard to see it when you snip and hide!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
In fact, the very title of this thread is
meaningless. States don't have rights.
Man, you're easier than shooting fish in a barrel!
See the evidence above, loser.
I have shown how your blatant assertion is false.
You are welcome to substantiate YOUR claim with comparable
evidence of equal authority.
I won't hold my breath, and won't be surprised if you disappear!
Post by Robert Sturgeon
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Leif speaking: It appears that nobody here has yet been able to come
up with the source of the myth that states can't have rights. I
notice that Stephen Halbrook made the assertion a couple of years ago
in his article defending Ashcroft's position on the Second Amendment:
"Only individuals have 'rights,' and only governmental units have
'powers.'" But I imagine this malarkey has been a gun-promoter
off-the-shelf item for a lot longer than that.

Judge Story discusses the relationship between "the people" and "the
state" (equivalent expressions) and quotes Justice Wilson with respect
to the rights of states (a state being a "moral person"). This
carries weight, since the Justice Wilson is James Wilson, signer of
the Declaration of Independence, a part of the first Supreme Court
appointed by Washington, a professor of law at the University of
Pennsylvania, and above all, a delegate to the Constitutional
Convention where he served on the "Committee on Detail," which was
charged with putting the Conbstitution into its final form. Here's
what Story and Wilson said:

"§ 208. In like manner the word "state" is used in various senses. In
its most enlarged sense it means the people composing a particular
nation or community. In this sense the state means the whole people,
united into one body politic; and the state, and the people of the
state, are equivalent expressions.2 Mr. Justice Wilson, in his Law
Lectures, uses the word "state" in its broadest sense. "In free
states," says he, "the people form an artificial person, or body
politic, the highest end [and] noblest, that can be known. They form
that moral person, which in one of my former lectures,3 I described,
as a complete body of free, natural persons, united together for their
common benefit; as having an understanding and a will; as
deliberating, and resolving, and acting; as possessed of interests,
which it ought to manage; as enjoying rights, which it ought to
maintain; and as lying under obligations, which it ought to perform.
To this moral person, we assign, by way of eminence, the dignified
appellation of STATE." - Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the
Constitution of the United States," 1833.
-Leif
David Hughes
2003-07-13 18:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leif Rakur
Leif speaking: It appears that nobody here has yet been able to come
up with the source of the myth that states can't have rights. I
notice that Stephen Halbrook made the assertion a couple of years ago
"Only individuals have 'rights,' and only governmental units have
'powers.'" But I imagine this malarkey has been a gun-promoter
off-the-shelf item for a lot longer than that.
I suspect that the "myth" comes from reading the US Constitution.
No, it doesn't say that states can't have rights.
It's wording is such that "right(s)" are enumerated, reserved for or
associated with "authors or inventors", "the people", "the press",
"the owner", "person(s)", "the accused", "inhabitant", or "citizens".
"Powers" are delegated to the United States, or reserved to the
States, or the people.
At no point does the USC delegate, reserve or enumerate a "right" to
the states or the United States.
The specific phrase "right of choice", used in the 12th Amendment
(1804), and again in the 20th (1933), refers to the specific, limited
duties of Congress in the elections of Presidents and Vice Presidents
in the case of the electors failing to produce a clear winner.
This is a duty or responsibility delegated to the Legislative Branch
of the United States, and one of the most amended portions of the
Constitution. My feeling is this is a "power" of the Legislature.

David Hughes
Gunner
2003-07-14 04:21:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:42:28 GMT, Steve Krulick <***@krulick.com> wrote:
Hey Steve! Yah, you, the dumbfuck.
Chew these over....

THE SUPREME COURT'S THIRTY-FIVE OTHER GUN CASES:
WHAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT


David B. Kopel [FNa1]
Saint Louis University Public Law Review

1999
Symposium
Gun Control
*99
Copyright © 1999 St. Louis University School of Law; DAVID B. KOPEL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part two of this article.
Part three of this article.
Note: Endnotes 1-254 are in Part two of this article. Endnotes 255 to
end are in Part three of this article.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Among legal scholars, it is undisputed that the Supreme Court has
said almost nothing about the Second Amendment. [FN1] This article
suggests that the Court has not been so silent as the conventional
wisdom suggests. While the meaning of the Supreme Court's leading
Second Amendment case, the 1939 United States v. Miller [FN2] decision
remains hotly disputed, the dispute about whether the Second Amendment
guarantees an individual right can be pretty well settled by looking
at the thirty-five other Supreme Court cases which quote, cite, or
discuss the Second Amendment. These cases suggest that the Justices of
the Supreme Court do now and usually have regarded the Second
Amendment "right of the people to keep and bear arms" as an individual
right, rather than as a right of state governments.
Chief Justice Melville Fuller's Supreme Court (1888-1910) had the
most cases involving the Second Amendment: eight. So far, the
Rehnquist Court is in second place, with six. But Supreme Court
opinions dealing with the Second Amendment come from almost every
period in the Court's history, and almost all of them assume or are
consistent with the proposition that the Second Amendment in an
individual right.
Part I of this Article discusses the opinions from the Rehnquist
Court. Part II looks at the Burger Court, and Part III at the Warren,
Vinson, and Hughes Courts. Part IV groups together the cases from the
Taft, Fuller, and Waite Courts, while Part V consolidates the Chase,
Taney, and Marshall Courts.
*100 But first, let us quickly summarize what modern legal
scholarship says about the Second Amendment, and why the Court's main
Second Amendment decision --United States v. Miller--does not by
itself settle the debate.
Dennis Henigan, lead attorney for Handgun Control, Inc., argues
that the Supreme Court has said so little about the Second Amendment
because the fact that the Second Amendment does not protect the right
of ordinary Americans to own a gun is "perhaps the most well-settled
point in American law." [FN3] Henigan argues that the Second Amendment
was meant to restrict the Congressional powers over the militia
granted to Congress in Article I of the Constitution--although Henigan
does not specify what the restrictions are. [FN4] One of Henigan's
staff criticizes the large number of American history textbooks which
"contradict[ ] a nearly unanimous line of judicial decisions by
suggesting the meaning of the Second Amendment was judicially
unsettled." [FN5]
Similarly, Carl Bogus argues that the only purpose of the Second
Amendment was to protect state's rights to use their militia to
suppress slave insurrections--although Bogus too is vague about
exactly how the Second Amendment allegedly restricted Congressional
powers. [FN6] This article refers to the *101 State's Rights theory of
the Second Amendment as the "Henigan/Bogus theory," in honor of its
two major scholarly proponents. [FN7]
In contrast to the State's Rights theory is what has become known
as the Standard Model. [FN8] Under the Standard Model, which is the
consensus of most modern legal scholarship on the Second Amendment,
the Amendment guarantees a right of individual Americans to own and
carry guns. [FN9] This modern *103 Standard Model is similar to the
position embraced by every known legal *104 scholar in the nineteenth
century who wrote about the Second Amendment: the Amendment guarantees
an individual right, but is subject to various reasonable
restrictions. [FN10]
Both the Standard Model and the State's Right theory claim that
Supreme Court precedent, particularly the case of United States v.
Miller, supports their position.
Two other scholarly theories about the Second Amendment are
interesting, but their theories have little to do with Supreme Court
precedent. Garry Wills argues that the Second Amendment has "no real
meaning," and was merely a clever trick that James Madison played on
the Anti-Federalists. [FN11] David Williams argues that the Second
Amendment once guaranteed an individual right, but no longer does so
because the American people are no longer virtuous and united, and
hence are no longer "the people" referred to in the Second Amendment.
[FN12] Neither the Wills Nihilism theory nor the Williams Character
Decline theory make claims which depend on the Supreme Court for
support, or which could be refuted by Supreme Court decisions.
Like the scholars, the lower federal courts are split on the
issue, although their split is the opposite of the scholarly one: most
federal courts which have stated a firm position have said that the
Second Amendment is not an individual right. [FN13] The federal courts
which follow the academic Standard Model *105 are in the minority,
although the ranks of the minority have grown in recent years. [FN14]
The courts on both sides, like the scholars, insist that they are
following the Supreme Court.
One approach to untangling the conflict has been to see if the lower
federal courts have actually been following Miller. In Can the Simple
Cite be Trusted?, Brannon Denning makes a persuasive argument that
some lower courts have cited Miller for propositions which cannot
reasonably be said to flow from Miller. [FN15] But part of the problem
with deciding whether the courts or the scholars are being faithful to
Miller is that Miller is such an opaque opinion.
Miller grew out of a 1938 prosecution of two bootleggers (Jack
Miller and Frank Layton) for violating the National Firearms Act by
possessing a sawed-off shotgun without having paid the required
federal tax. The federal district court dismissed the indictment on
the grounds that the National Firearms Act violated the Second
Amendment. [FN16] Freed, Miller and Layton promptly absconded, *106
and thus only the government's side was heard when the case was argued
before the Supreme Court. [FN17]
Unfortunately, Miller was written by Justice James McReynolds,
arguably one of the worst Supreme Court Justices of the twentieth
century. [FN18] The opinion nowhere explicitly says that the Second
Amendment does (or does not guarantee) an individual right. The key
paragraph of the opinion is this:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use
of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length"
at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or
efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second
Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.
Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any
part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could
contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys
(Tenn.) 154, 158. [FN19]

This paragraph can plausibly be read to support either the Standard
Model or the State's Rights theory. By the State's Right theory, the
possession of a gun by any individual has no constitutional
protection; the Second Amendment only applies to persons actively on
duty in official state militias.
In contrast, the Standard Model reads the case as adopting the
"civilized warfare" test of nineteenth century state Supreme Court
cases: individuals have a right to own arms, but only the type of arms
that are useful for militia service; for example, ownership of rifles
is protected, but not ownership of Bowie knives (since Bowie knives
were allegedly useful only for fights and brawls). [FN20] The case
cited by the Miller Court, Aymette v. State [FN21], is plainly in the
Standard Model, since it interprets the Tennessee Constitution's right
to arms to protect an individual right to own firearms, but only
firearms suitable for militia *107 use; in dicta, Aymette states that
the Second Amendment has the same meaning. [FN22]
While scholars can contend for different meanings, it is true that, as
a matter of pure linguistics, the Miller decision does not foreclose
either the Standard Model or the State's Rights theory.
And what is one to make of the opinion's penultimate paragraph,
stating, "In the margin some of the more important opinions and
comments by writers are cited." [FN23] In the attached footnote, the
opinion cites two prior U.S. Supreme Court opinions and six state
court opinions, all of which treat the Second Amendment or its state
analogue as an individual right, even as the opinions uphold
particular gun controls. [FN24] The footnote likewise cites treatises
by Justice Joseph Story and Thomas Cooley explicating the Second
Amendment as an individual right. [FN25] But the same Miller footnote
also cites a Kansas Supreme Court *108 decision which is directly
contrary; that case holds that the right to arms in Kansas belongs
only to the state government, and in dicta makes the same claim about
the Second Amendment. [FN26]
The Miller footnote begins with the phrase "Concerning the militia
--" but several of the cases cited have nothing to do with the
militia. For example, Robertson v. Baldwin (discussed infra) simply
offers dicta that laws which forbid the carrying of concealed weapons
by individuals do not violate the Second Amendment. [FN27]
If Miller were the only source of information about the Second
Amendment, the individual right vs. government right argument might be
impossible to resolve conclusively. Fortunately, the Supreme Court has
addressed the Second Amendment in thirty-four other cases--although
most of these cases appear to have escaped the attention of
commentators on both sides of *109 the issue. This article ends the
bipartisan scholarly neglect of the Supreme Court's writings on the
Second Amendment. [FN28]
The neglected cases are not, of course, directly about the Second
Amendment. Rather, they are about other issues, and the Second
Amendment appears as part of an argument intended to make a point
about something else. [FN29] Nevertheless, all the dicta may be
revealing. If Henigan and Bogus are correct, then the dicta should
treat the Second Amendment as a right which belongs to state
governments, not to American citizens. And if the Standard Model is
correct, then the Amendment should be treated as an individual right.
Moreover, the line between dicta and ratio decendi is rarely firm,
[FN30] and one day's dicta may become another day's holding. [FN31]
C.S. Lewis observed that proofs (or disproofs) of Christianity
found in apologetic documents are sometimes less convincing than
offhand remarks made in anthropology textbooks, or in other sources
where Christianity is only treated incidentally. The Supreme Court
cases in which the Supreme Court mentions the Second Amendment only in
passing are similarly illuminating. [FN32]
*110 Before commencing with case-by-case analysis, let me present
a chart which summarizes the various cases. The columns in chart are
self-explanatory, but I will explain two of them anyway. A "yes"
answer in the "Supportive of individual right in 2d Amendment?" column
means only that the particular case provides support for the
individual rights theory; although the part of the case addressing the
Second Amendment might make sense only if the Second Amendment is
considered an individual right, the case will not directly state that
proposition. If the case is labeled "ambiguous," then the language of
the case is consistent with both the Standard Model and with State's
Rights.
The next column asks, "Main clause of 2d A. quoted without
introductory clause?" The National Rifle Association and similar
groups are frequently criticized for quoting the main clause of the
Second Amendment ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,
shall not be infringed") without quoting the introductory clause ("A
well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State"). [FN33] The critics argue that the introductory, militia,
clause controls the meaning of the main, right to arms, clause. They
contend that to omit the introductory clause is to distort completely
the Second Amendment's meaning. (And if, as these critics argue, the
Second Amendment grants a right to state governments rather than to
individuals, then omission of the introductory clause is indeed quite
misleading.) On the other hand, if the Second Amendment is about a
right of people (the main clause), and the introductory clause is
useful only to resolve gray areas (such as what kind of arms people
can own), then it is legitimate sometimes to quote the main clause
only. As the chart shows, the Supreme Court has quoted the main clause
alone much more often than the Supreme Court has quoted both clauses
together.
This Supreme Court quoting pattern is consistent with the theory
Eugene Volokh's article, The Commonplace Second Amendment, which
argues that the Second Amendment follows a common pattern of
constitutional drafting from the Early Republic: there is a "purpose
clause," followed by a main clause. [FN34] *111 For example, Rhode
Island's freedom of the press provision declared: "The liberty of the
press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, any
person may publish sentiments on any subject, being responsible for
the abuse of that liberty." [FN35] This provision requires judges to
protect every person's right to "publish sentiments on any
subject"--even when the sentiments are not "essential to the security
of freedom in a state," or when they are detrimental to freedom or
security.
Similarly, the New Hampshire Constitution declared: "Economy being
a most essential virtue in all states, especially in a young one; no
pension shall be granted, but in consideration of actual services, and
such pensions ought to be granted with great caution, by the
legislature, and never for more than one year at a time." [FN36] This
provision makes all pensions of longer than one year at a time
void--even if the state is no longer "a young one" and no longer in
need of economy. Volokh supplies dozens of similar examples from state
constitutions. [FN37]
Of the twenty-nine U.S. Supreme Court opinions (including Miller)
which have quoted the Second Amendment, twenty-three contain only a
partial quote. This quoting pattern suggests that, generally speaking,
Supreme Court justices have not considered the "purpose clause" at the
beginning of the Second Amendment to be essential to the meaning of
the main clause.



Case name and year.
Opinion by
Main issue in case
Type of opinion
Supportive of individual right?
Main clause of 2d Amendment quoted without introductory clause?

Spencer v. Kemna. 1998
Stevens
Article III case or controversy
Dissent from denial of cert.
Yes, but could possibly be read as referring to rights under state
constitutions
No quote

Muscarello v. U.S. 1998
Ginsburg
Fed stat. interp.
Dissent
Yes
Partial quote

Printz v. U.S. 1997
Thomas
Federalism
Concur
Says that Miller did not decide the issue. Thomas appears to support
individual right.
Full quote

Albright v. Oliver. 1994
Stevens
14th A. and § 1983
Dissent
Yes
Partial quote

Planned Parenthood v. Casey. 1992
O'Connor
14th A.
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

U. S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez. 1990
Rehnquist
4th A. applied to foreign national
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Lewis v. U.S. 1980
Blackmun
Interp. of Gun Ctl. Act of 1968
Majority
Ambiguous, but probably not. If an individual right, less fundamental
than some others
Full quote

Moore v. East Cleveland. 1976
Powell
14th A
Plurality
Yes. (But contrary opinion expressed by Justice Powell after
retirement.)
Partial quote

" "
White
""
Dissent
Yes
Partial quote

Adams v. Williams. 1972
Douglas
4th A.
Dissent
No
Full quote

Roe v. Wade. 1973
Stewart
14th A.
Concur
Yes
Partial quote

Laird v. Tatum. 1972
Douglas
Justiciability
Dissent
Ambiguous
Partial quote

Burton v. Sills. 1969
Per curiam
Challenge to state gun licensing law
Summary affirm.
Ambiguous
No quote

Duncan v. Louisiana. 1968
Black
Incorporation of 6th Amendment
Concur
Yes
Partial quote

Malloy v. Hogan. 1964
Brennan
Incorporation of 5th Amend.
Majority
Yes
No quote

Konigsberg v. State Bar. 1961
Harlan
1st Amendment
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Poe v. Ullman. 1961
Harlan
14th Amendment
Dissent
Yes
Partial quote

" "
Douglas
" "
Dissent
Yes, but implicitly abandoned in Adams.
No quote

Knapp v. Schweitzer. 1958
Frankfurter
Incorp. of 5th Amendment
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Johnson v. Eisentrager. 1950
Jackson
5th A. applied to trial of enemy soldier
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Adamson v. Calif. 1947
Black
Incorp. of 5th Amendment
Dissent
Yes
Partial quote

Hamilton v. Regents. 1935
Butler
Conscientious objector
Majority
No, but not necessarily inconsistent with an individual right.
No quote

U. S. v. Schwimmer. 1929
Butler
Immigration laws
Majority
Ambiguous
Full quote

Stearns v. Wood. 1915
McReynolds
Article III case or controversy
Majority
Ambiguous, since court refuses to hear any of plaintiff's claims
No quote




Twining v. N.J. 1908
Moody
Incorp. of 5th A self-incrim.
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Trono v. U.S. 1905
Peckham
5th A. in the Philippines
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Kepner v. U.S. 1904
Day
" "
Majority
Yes. Same as Trono.
Partial quote

Maxwell v. Dow. 1899
Peckham
Incorp. of 5th A. jury trial
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Robertson v. Baldwin. 1897
Brown
13th Amend.
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Brown v. Walker. 1896
Field
5th Amend.
Dissent
Yes
Partial quote

Miller v. Texas. 1894
Brown
14th Amendment
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Logan v. U.S. 1892
Gray
Cong. Power from 14th A.
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Presser v. Illinois. 1886
Woods
2d A
Majority
Yes
Full quote

U. S. v. Cruikshank 1876
Waite
Cong. Power under 14th Amendment
Majority
Yes. A basic human right guaranteed by the Const., like 1st A. rt. of
assembly
No quote

Scott v. Sandford. 1857
Taney
Citizenship; Cong. powers over territories.
Majority
Yes
Partial quote

Houston v. Moore. 1820
Story
State powers over militia.
Dissent
Yes, but also supportive of a state's right. (A later treatise
written by Story is for individual right only.)
No quote




*112


I. The Rehnquist Court


Since William Rehnquist was appointed Chief Justice in 1986, six
different opinions have addressed the Second Amendment. The authors of
the opinions include the small left wing of the Court (Justices
Stevens and Ginsburg), the Court's right wing (Justices Thomas and
Rehnquist), and the Court's centrist Justice O'Connor. Every one of
the opinions treats the Second Amendment as an *114 individual right.
Except for Justice Breyer, every sitting Supreme Court Justice has
joined in at least one of these opinions-- although this joinder does
not prove that the joiner necessarily agreed with what the opinion
said about the Second Amendment. Still, five of the current Justices
have written an opinion in which the Second Amendment is considered an
individual right, and three more Justices have joined such an opinion.

A. Spencer v. Kemna

After serving some time in state prison, Spencer was released on
parole. [FN38] While free, he was accused but not convicted of rape,
and his parole was revoked. [FN39] He argued that his parole
revocation was unconstitutional. [FN40] But before his constitutional
claim could be judicially resolved, his sentence ended, and he was
released. [FN41] The majority of the Supreme Court held that since
Spencer was out of prison, his claim was moot, and he had no right to
pursue his constitutional lawsuit.
Justice Stevens, in dissent, argued that being found to have
perpetrated a crime (such as the rape finding implicit in the
revocation of Spencer's parole) has consequences besides prison:
An official determination that a person has committed a crime may
cause two different kinds of injury. It may result in tangible harms
such as imprisonment, loss of the right to vote or to bear arms, and
the risk of greater punishment if another crime is committed. It may
also severely injure the person's reputation and good name. [FN42] A
person can only lose a right upon conviction of a crime if a person
had the right before conviction. Hence, if an individual can lose his
right "to bear arms," he must possess such a right. Justice Stevens
did not specifically mention the Second Amendment, so it is possible
that his reference to the right to bear arms was to a right created by
state constitutions, rather than the federal one. (Forty-four states
guarantee a right to arms in their state constitution. [FN43]) *117
When particular gun control laws are before the Supreme Court for
either statutory or constitutional interpretation, Justice Stevens is
a reliable vote to uphold the law in question, often with language
detailing the harm of gun violence. *118 FN44] It is notable, then,
that Justice Stevens recognizes a right to bear arms as an important
constitutional right, whose deprivation should not be shielded from
judicial review. [FN45]

B. Muscarello v. United States

Federal law provides a five year mandatory sentence for anyone who
"carries a firearm" during a drug trafficking crime. [FN46] Does the
sentence enhancement apply when the gun is merely contained in an
automobile in which a person commits a drug trafficking crime--such as
when the gun is in the trunk? The Supreme Court majority said "yes."
[FN47] In dissent, Justice Ginsburg--joined by Justices Rehnquist,
Scalia [FN48], and Souter--argued that "carries a firearm" means to
carry it so that it is ready to use. [FN49] In support for her view,
Justice Ginsburg pointed to the Second Amendment "keep and bear arms"
as an example of the ordinary meaning of carrying a firearm:

It is uncontested that §924(c)(1) applies when the defendant bears a
firearm, i.e., carries the weapon on or about his person "for the
purpose of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in
case of a conflict." Black's Law Dictionary 214 (6th ed. 1990)
(defining the phrase "carry arms or weapons"); see ante, at 5. The
Court holds that, in addition, "carries a firearm," in the context of
§924(c)(1), means personally transporting, possessing, or keeping a
firearm in a vehicle, anyplace in a vehicle.
Without doubt, "carries" is a word of many meanings, definable to
mean or include carting about in a vehicle. But that encompassing
definition is not ubiquitously *119 necessary one. Nor, in my
judgment, is it a proper construction of "carries" as the term appears
in §924(c)(1). In line with Bailey and the principle of lenity the
Court has long followed, I would confine "carries a firearm," for
§924(c)(1) purposes, to the undoubted meaning of that expression in
the relevant context. I would read the words to indicate not merely
keeping arms on one's premises or in one's vehicle, but bearing them
in such manner as to be ready for use as a weapon.
. . .
Unlike the Court, I do not think dictionaries, surveys of press
reports, or the Bible tell us, dispositively, what "carries" means
embedded in §924(c)(1). On definitions, "carry" in legal formulations
could mean, inter alia, transport, possess, have in stock, prolong
(carry over), be infectious, or wear or bear on one's person. At issue
here is not "carries" at large but "carries a firearm." The Court's
computer search of newspapers is revealing in this light. Carrying
guns in a car showed up as the meaning "perhaps more than one third"
of the time. Ante, at 4. One is left to wonder what meaning showed up
some two thirds of the time. Surely a most familiar meaning is, as the
Constitution's Second Amendment ("keep and bear Arms") (emphasis
added) and Black's Law Dictionary, at 214, indicate: "wear, bear, or
carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the
purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive
action in a case of conflict with another person." [FN50]


Perhaps no word in the Second Amendment is as hotly contested as
the word "bear." The Standard Model scholars, following the usage of
Webster's Dictionary, [FN51] the 1776 Pennsylvania Constitution,
[FN52] and the 1787 call for a Bill of Rights from the dissenters at
the Pennsylvania Ratification Convention read the word "bear" as
including ordinary types of carrying. [FN53] Thus, a person carrying a
gun for personal protection could be said to be bearing arms. If
individuals can "bear arms," then the right to "bear arms" must belong
to individuals.
In contrast, Garry Wills (who argues that the Second Amendment has "no
real meaning" [FN54]) argues that "bear" has an exclusively military
context. [FN55] It is impossible, he writes, to "bear arms" unless
once is engaged in active militia service. *120 Hence, the right to
"bear arms" does not refer to a right of individuals to carry guns.
[FN56]
Justice Ginsburg's opinion plainly takes the former approach. She
believes that "to bear arms" is to wear arms in an ordinary way.
[FN57]

*121

C. Printz v. United States

In Printz v. United States, the Supreme Court voted 5 to 4 to
declare part of the Brady Act unconstitutional, because the Act
ordered state and local law enforcement officials to perform a federal
background check on handgun buyers. [FN58] While the Printz decision
was not a Second Amendment case, Printz did result in some Second
Amendment language from Justice Clarence Thomas's concurring opinion.
Justice Thomas joined in Justice Scalia's five-person majority
opinion, but he also wrote a separate concurring opinion--an opinion
which shows that all the *122 Second Amendment scholarship in the
legal journals is starting to be noticed by the Court.
The Thomas concurrence began by saying that, even if the Brady Act
did not intrude on state sovereignty, it would still be
unconstitutional. [FN59] The law was enacted under the congressional
power "to regulate commerce. . .among the several states." [FN60] But
the Brady Act applies to commerce that is purely intrastate--the sale
of handgun by a gun store to a customer in the same state. [FN61]
Justice Thomas suggested that although the interstate commerce clause
has, in recent decades, been interpreted to extend to purely
intrastate transactions, that interpretation is wrong. [FN62]
Even if the Brady Act were within the Congressional power over
interstate commerce, Justice Thomas continued, the Act might violate
the Second Amendment:


. . . .Even if we construe Congress' authority to regulate interstate
commerce to encompass those intrastate transactions that
"substantially affect" interstate commerce, I question whether
Congress can regulate the particular transactions at issue here. The
Constitution, in addition to delegating certain enumerated powers to
Congress, places whole areas outside the reach of Congress' regulatory
authority. The First Amendment, for example, is fittingly celebrated
for preventing Congress from "prohibiting the free exercise" of
religion or "abridging the freedom of speech." The Second Amendment
similarly appears to contain an express limitation on the government's
authority. That Amendment provides: "[a] well regulated Militia, being
necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This Court has not had
recent occasion to consider the nature of the substantive right
safeguarded by the Second Amendment. [n.1] If, however, the Second
Amendment is read to confer [FN63] a personal right to "keep and bear
arms," *123 a colorable argument exists that the Federal Government's
regulatory scheme, at least as it pertains to the purely intrastate
sale or possession of firearms, runs afoul of that Amendment's
protections. [n.2] As the parties did not raise this argument,
however, we need not consider it here. Perhaps, at some future date,
this Court will have the opportunity to determine whether Justice
Story was correct when he wrote that the right to bear arms "has
justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a
republic." 3 J. Story, Commentaries §1890, p. 746 (1833). In the
meantime, I join the Court's opinion striking down the challenged
provisions of the Brady Act as inconsistent with the Tenth Amendment.
[FN64]

There are several notable elements in the Thomas concurrence. First,
Justice Thomas equates the Second Amendment with the First Amendment.
This is consistent with the rule from the Valley Forge case that all
parts of the Bill of Rights are on equal footing; none is preferred
(or derogated). [FN65] He implicitly rejected second-class citizenship
for the Second Amendment.
Justice Thomas then suggests that the Brady Act could be invalid
under the Second Amendment. [FN66] Regarding right to bear arms
provisions in state constitutions, some state courts have upheld
various gun restrictions as long as all guns are not banned. [FN67]
Justice Thomas plainly does not take such a weak position in defense
of the Second Amendment. [FN68] His implication is that by requiring
government permission and a week-long prior restraint on the right to
buy a handgun, the Brady Act infringed the Second Amendment.
And of course by recognizing that handguns are a Second Amendment
issue, Justice Thomas implicitly rejects the argument that the Second
Amendment merely protects "sporting weapons" (usually defined as a
subset of rifles and shotguns). [FN69]
Noting that the Second Amendment was not at issue in the case
before the Court (the case was brought by sheriffs who did not want to
be subject to federal commands, rather by gun buyers or gun dealers),
Justice Thomas gently urges the rest of the Court to take up a Second
Amendment case in the future. And he leaves no doubt about his
personal view of the issue, as he quotes the 19th century legal
scholar and Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, who saw the right to
bear arms "as the palladium of the liberties of a republic." [FN70]
*124

There are two footnotes in the Second Amendment portion of the
Thomas concurrence. In the first footnote, the Justice states that the
Supreme Court has not construed the Second Amendment since the 1939
case United States v. Miller (which upheld the National Firearms Act's
tax and registration requirement for short shotguns [FN71]). He added
that the Supreme Court has never directly ruled on the individual
rights issue.
1 Our most recent treatment of the Second Amendment occurred in United
States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), in which we reversed the
District Court's invalidation of the National Firearms Act, enacted in
1934. In Miller, we determined that the Second Amendment did not
guarantee a citizen's right to possess a sawed off shotgun because
that weapon had not been shown to be "ordinary military equipment"
that could "contribute to the common defense." Id., at 178. The Court
did not, however, attempt to define, or otherwise construe, the
substantive right protected by the Second Amendment.
The second footnote addressed the growing scholarship on the
Second Amendment:

2 Marshaling an impressive array of historical evidence, a growing
body of scholarly commentary indicates that the "right to keep and
bear arms" is, as the Amendment's text suggests, a personal right.
See, e.g., J. Malcolm, To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo
American Right 162 (1994); S. Halbrook, That Every Man Be Armed, The
Evolution of a Constitutional Right (1984); Van Alstyne, The Second
Amendment and the Personal Right to Arms, 43 Duke L. J. 1236 (1994);
Amar, The Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment, 101 Yale L. J.
1193 (1992); Cottrol & Diamond, The Second Amendment: Toward an Afro
Americanist Reconsideration, 80 Geo. L. J. 309 (1991); Levinson, The
Embarrassing Second Amendment, 99 Yale L. J. 637 (1989); Kates,
Handgun Prohibition and the Original Meaning of the Second Amendment,
82 Mich. L. Rev. 204 (1983). Other scholars, however, argue that the
Second Amendment does not secure a personal right to keep or to bear
arms. See, e.g., Bogus, Race, Riots, and Guns, 66 S. Cal. L. Rev. 1365
(1993); Williams, Civic Republicanism and the Citizen Militia: The
Terrifying Second Amendment, 101 Yale L. J. 551 (1991); Brown, Guns,
Cowboys, Philadelphia Mayors, and Civic Republicanism: On Sanford
Levinson's The Embarrassing Second Amendment, 99 Yale L. J. 661
(1989); Cress, An Armed Community: The Origins and Meaning of the
Right to Bear Arms, 71 J. Am. Hist. 22 (1984). Although somewhat
overlooked in our jurisprudence, the Amendment has certainly
engendered considerable academic, as well as public, debate.


In the second footnote, Justice Thomas points out that the text of the
Second Amendment (which refers to "the right of the people") suggests
that the Second Amendment right belongs to individuals, not the
government.
*125

As Justice Thomas notes, a large body of legal scholarship in the
last fifteen years has examined the historical evidence, and found
very strong proof that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual
right. [FN72]
The Supreme Court does not always follow the viewpoint of the
legal academy. But for most of this century, the Court has always been
influenced by the academy's opinion. In the 1940s, for example, legal
scholars paid almost no attention to the Second Amendment, and neither
did the Supreme Court; in that decade, the Second Amendment was
mentioned only once, and that mention was in a lone dissent. [FN73]
But starting in the late 1970s, a Second Amendment revolution began to
take place in legal scholarship. That an intellectual revolution was
in progress became undeniable after the Yale Law Journal published
Sanford Levinson's widely influential article The Embarrassing Second
Amendment in 1989. [FN74] Since then, scholarly attention to the
Second Amendment has grown even more rapidly. And more importantly,
for purposes of this article, the Supreme Court Justices have raised
the Second Amendment in six different cases in 1990-98. Six mentions
in nine years hardly puts the Second Amendment on the same plane as
the First Amendment; but six times in one decade is a rate six times
higher than in the 1940s.

D. Albright v. Oliver

Albright involved a Section 1983 civil rights lawsuit growing out
of a malicious decision to prosecute someone for conduct which was not
crime under the relevant state law. [FN75] The issue before the
Supreme Court was whether the prosecutor's action violated the
defendant's Fourteenth Amendment Due Process rights. The majority said
"no," in part because the claim (growing out of the victim's unlawful
arrest) would be better presented as a Fourth Amendment claim. [FN76]
Justice Stevens dissented, and was joined by Justice Blackmun;
part of the dissent quoted Justice Harlan's analysis of the meaning of
the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Fourteenth Amendment's protection of
the "right to keep and bear arms":
*126 At bottom, the plurality opinion seems to rest on one fundamental
misunderstanding: that the incorporation cases have somehow
"substituted" the specific provisions of the Bill of Rights for the
"more generalized language contained in the earlier cases construing
the Fourteenth Amendment." Ante, at 7. In fact, the incorporation
cases themselves rely on the very "generalized language" the Chief
Justice would have them displacing. Those cases add to the liberty
protected by the Due Process Clause most of the specific guarantees of
the first eight Amendments, but they do not purport to take anything
away; that a liberty interest is not the subject of an incorporated
provision of the Bill of Rights does not remove it from the ambit of
the Due Process Clause. I cannot improve on Justice Harlan's statement
of this settled proposition:

"The full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause
cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific
guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution. This "liberty" is
not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of
property; the freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to
keep and bear arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and
seizures; and so on. It is a rational continuum which, broadly
speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary
impositions and purposeless restraints . . . and which also
recognizes, what a reasonable and sensitive judgment must, that
certain interests require particularly careful scrutiny of the state
needs asserted to justify their abridgment." Poe v. Ullman, 367 U.S.
497, 543 (1961) (dissenting opinion). [FN77]
I have no doubt that an official accusation of an infamous crime
constitutes a deprivation of liberty worthy of constitutional
protection. The Framers of the Bill of Rights so concluded, and there
is no reason to believe that the sponsors of the Fourteenth Amendment
held a different view. The Due Process Clause of that Amendment should
therefore be construed to require a responsible determination of
probable cause before such a deprivation is effected. [FN78]


In Poe v. Ullman, the second Justice Harlan construed the "liberty"
protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. [FN79] Although Justice
Harlan's words originally were written in dissent, they have been
quoted in later cases as the opinion of the Court. [FN80] Fourteenth
Amendment "liberty" of course belongs to individuals, not to state
governments. The point of the Fourteenth Amendment was to protect
individual liberty from state infringement.
This "liberty" is not limited to "the specific guarantees
elsewhere provided in the Constitution" including "the right to keep
and bear arms." These individual *127 rights in the Harlan list, like
other individual rights in the Bill of Rights, might be included in
the Fourteenth Amendment's protection of "liberty" against state
action. The point made by Justice Harlan (and Justice Stevens, quoting
Justice Harlan), is that Fourteenth Amendment "liberty" includes
things which are not part of the Bill of Rights, and does not
necessarily include every individual right which is in the Bill of
Rights.
While the Harlan quote makes no direct claim about whether the
individual Bill of Rights items should be incorporated in the
Fourteenth Amendment, Justice Harlan was plainly saying that simply
because an individual right is protected in the Bill of Rights does
not mean that it is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. (Justice
Black's view was directly opposite. [FN81]) Therefore, although the
Harlan quote is not dispositive, the quote could appropriately be used
to argue against incorporating the Second Amendment into the
Fourteenth.
At the same time, the quote obviously treats the Second Amendment
as an individual right. That is why Justice Harlan used the Second
Amendment (along with the religion, speech, press, freedom from
unreasonable searches, and property) to make a point about what kind
of individual rights are protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.
As we shall see below, Justice Harlan's words are the words about
the Second Amendment which the Supreme Court has quoted most often.

E. Planned Parenthood v. Casey

Planned Parenthood was a challenge to a Pennsylvania law imposing
various restrictions on abortion. [FN82] In discussing the scope of
the Fourteenth Amendment, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's opinion for
the Court approvingly quoted Justice Harlan's earlier statement that
"the right to keep and bear arms" is part of the "full scope of
liberty" contained in the Bill of Rights, and made applicable to the
state by the Fourteenth Amendment. [FN83] Although the Planned
Parenthood decision was fractured, with various Justices joining only
selected portions of each others' opinions, the portion where Justice
O'Connor quoted Justice Harlan about the Fourteenth and Second
Amendments was joined by four other Justices, and represented the
official opinion of the Court.
Planned Parenthood is the second of the four Supreme Court
opinions that quote the Harlan dissent in Poe. (The other two will be
discussed infra.) Had the authors of those opinions chosen to delete
the "right to keep and bear arms" words, by using ellipses, they
certainly could have done so. As we shall see when we come to the
original Harlan opinion in Poe v. Ullman, the full Harlan analysis
*128 of the scope of Fourteenth Amendment liberty includes important
material which later Justices carefully avoided quoting. [FN84]

F. United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez [FN85] involved American drug
agents' warrantless search of a Mexican's homes in Mexicali and San
Felipe, Mexico. When Verdugo-Urquidez was prosecuted in a United
States court for distribution of marijuana, his attorney argued that
the evidence seized from his homes could not be used against him.
[FN86] If the homes in question had been located in the United States
and owned by an American, the exclusionary rule clearly would have
forbade the introduction of the evidence. But did the U.S. Fourth
Amendment protect Mexican citizens in Mexico?
Chief Justice Rehnquist's majority opinion said "no." Part of the
Court's analysis investigated who are "the people" protected by the
Fourth Amendment:

"[T]he people" seems to have been a term of art employed in select
parts of the Constitution. The preamble declares that the Constitution
is ordained and established by "the People of the United States." The
Second Amendment protects "the right of the people to keep and bear
Arms," and the Ninth and Tenth Amendment provide that certain rights
and power are retained by and reserved to "the people." See also U.S.
Const., Amdt. 1 ("Congress shall make no law. . .abridging. . .the
right of the people peaceably to assemble") (emphasis added); Art I, §
2, cl. 1 ("The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members
chosen every second Year by the People of the Several
States")(emphasis added). While this textual exegesis is by no means
conclusive, it suggests that "the People" protected by the Fourth
Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendment, and to whom rights
are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of
persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise
developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered
part of that community. [FN87] *129

By implication therefore, if "the people" whose right to arms is
protected by the Second Amendment are American people, then "the right
of the people" in the Second Amendment does not mean "the right of the
states." [FN88] To adopt the *130 Henigan/Bogus theory, and find that
the Second Amendment "right of the people" belongs to state
governments would require a rejection of Verdugo's explication of who
are "the people" of the Second Amendment and the rest of the
Constitution.
The dissent by Justice Brennan would have given "the people" a
broader reading: "'The People' are 'the governed." ' [FN89] The
dissent's reading is likewise consistent only with the Standard Model,
and not with the State's Rights view. If "the people" of the Second
Amendment are "the governed," then the "right of the people" must
belong to people who are governed, and not to governments. [FN90]
*131

Interestingly, the majority opinion's analysis of "the people"
protected by the Bill of Rights was an elaboration of a point made by
the dissenting opinion from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, when
the majority had held that Mr. Verdugo was entitled to Fourth
Amendment protections. [FN91] When the Verdugo case went to the
Supreme Court, the Solicitor General's office quoted from Ninth
Circuit's dissent, but used ellipses to remove the dissent's reference
to the Second Amendment. [FN92] The Supreme Court majority, of course,
put the Second Amendment back in.




II. The Burger Court
The Second Amendment record of the Burger Court is more complex than
that of the Rehnquist Court. The Rehnquist Court dicta about the
Second Amendment points exclusively to the Second Amendment as an
individual right. Indeed, except for Justice Thomas's observation that
Miller did not resolve the individual rights issue, nothing in the
Rehnquist Court's record contains even a hint that the Second
Amendment might not be an individual right. In contrast, the Burger
Court's dicta are not so consistent.

A. Lewis v. United States

The one Supreme Court majority opinion which is fully consistent
with the Henigan/Bogus state's rights theory is Lewis v. United
States. [FN93] Interestingly, the same advocates who dismiss Verdugo
because it was not a Second Amendment case rely heavily on Lewis even
though it too is not a Second Amendment *132 case. The issue in Lewis
was primarily statutory interpretation, and secondarily the Sixth
Amendment. A federal statute imposes severe penalties on persons who
possess a firearm after conviction for a felony. [FN94] In 1961, Lewis
had been convicted of burglary in Florida [FN95]; since Lewis was not
provided with counsel, his conviction was invalid under the rule of
Gideon v. Wainright. [FN96] The question for the Court was whether
Congress, in enacting the 1968 law barring gun possession by a person
who "has been convicted by a court of the United States or of a State.
. .of a felony," meant to include persons whose convictions had been
rendered invalid by the 1963 Gideon case. Writing for a six-justice
majority, Justice Blackmun held that the statutory language did apply
to person with convictions invalid under Gideon. [FN97]
Given the non-existent legislative history on the point, Justice
Blackmun was forced to be rather aggressive in his reading of
Congressional intent. For example, Senator Russell Long, the chief
sponsor of the Gun Control Act of 1968, had explained that "every
citizen could possess a gun until the commission of his first felony.
Upon his conviction, however, Title VII would deny. . .the right to
possess a firearm. . . ." [FN98] This supposedly showed Congressional
intent to disarm people like Lewis, since the Senator had "stressed
conviction, not a 'valid' conviction." [FN99] By this reasoning, the
Gun Control Act of 1968 would likewise apply to Scottsboro Boys; they
had been tortured into confessing a crime which they did not commit,
but they did indeed have a "conviction" for murder, even if not "a
valid conviction." [FN100] Justice Brennan's dissent pointed out that
the majority's reasoning would impose the Gun Control Act even on
people whose convictions had been overturned by an appellate court.
[FN101]
Did the Gun Control Act (as interpreted by the Court) violate equal
protection?

Congress could rationally conclude that any felony conviction, even an
allegedly invalid one, is a sufficient basis on which to prohibit
possession of a firearm. See, e.g., United States v. Ransom, 515 F.2d
885, 891-892 (CA5 1975), cert. Denied, 424 U.S. 944 (1976). This Court
has repeatedly recognized that a legislature constitutionally may
prohibit a convicted felon from engaging in activities far more
fundamental than the possession of a firearm. See Richardson v.
Ramirez, 418 U.S. 24 (1974)(disenfranchisement); De Veau v. Braisted,
363 U.S. 144, 363 U.S. 144 (1960)(proscription against holding *133
office in a waterfront labor organization); Hawker v. New York, 170
U.S. 189 (1898)(prohibition against the practice of medicine). [FN102]

From this, it is reasonable to infer that possession of a firearm is a
"right," but a right which is far less "fundamental" than voting,
serving as an officer in a union, or practicing medicine. As to
whether possessing a firearm is a constitutional right, the opinion
does not say. But the opinion could certainly be cited for support
that arms possession is not "fundamental" enough to be protected by
the Fourteenth Amendment's due process clause.
In a footnote of the section supporting the rationality of a
statute disarming convicted felons, Justice Blackmun wrote:

These legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither
based upon constitutionally suspect criteria, nor do they trench upon
any constitutionally protected liberties. See United States v. Miller,
307 U.S. 174, 178 (the Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep
and bear a firearm that does not have "some reasonable relationship to
the preservation or efficiency of a well- regulated militia"); United
States v. Three Winchester 30-30 Caliber Lever Action Carbines, 504 F.
2d 1288, 1290, n. 5 (CA7 1974); United States v. Johnson, 497 F.2d 548
(CA4 1974); Cody v. United States, 460 F.2d 34 (CA8), cert. denied,
409 U.S. 1010 (1972)(the latter three cases holding, respectively,
that 1202(a)(1), 922(g), and 922(a)(6) do not violate the Second
Amendment). [FN103]

Attorney Stephen Halbrook (the successful plaintiffs' attorney in the
Supreme Court gun cases of Printz v. United States [FN104], and United
States v. Thompson/Center [FN105]) reads Lewis as reflecting the
principle that since a legislature may deprive a felon "of other civil
liberties, and may even deprive a felon of life itself--felons have no
fundamental right to keep and bear arms." [FN106]
As a matter of formal linguistics, Halbrook's reading of Lewis is
not impermissible. But it is also possible to read the Lewis opinion
as saying, in effect, "since no-one has a right to have a gun, a law
against felons owning guns does not infringe on Constitutional
rights."
What of the three Court of Appeals cases cited by Justice
Blackmun?
*134 The Three Winchester 30-30 Caliber Lever Action Carbines case
upholds the forfeiture of guns possessed by a convicted felon. The
footnote cited by the Supreme Court states:
Apparently at the district court level the defendant argued that
18 U.S.C. App. § 1202 was invalid as an "infringement of the second
amendment's protection of the right to bear arms, the first
amendment's prohibition of bills of attainder and ex post facto laws,
and the fourteenth amendment's due process clause." These arguments
were appropriately rejected. [citations omitted] [FN107]
The Cody [FN108] case upheld the conviction of a felon who
falsified a federal gun registration form and falsely claimed that he
had no felony conviction. Regarding Cody's Second Amendment claim, the
Eighth Circuit stated:

It has been settled that the Second Amendment is not an absolute bar
to congressional regulation of the use or possession of firearms. The
Second Amendment's guarantee extends only to use or possession which
"has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of
a well regulated militia." Id [Miller]. At 178, 59 S. Ct. at 818. See
United States v. Synnes, 438 F.2d 764, 772 (8th Cir. 1971), vacated on
other grounds, 404 U.S. 1009, 92 S. Ct. 687, 30 L. Ed. 2d 657 (1972);
Cases v. United States, 131 F.2d 916, 922 (1st Cir. 1942), cert.
denied sub nom., Velazquez v. United States, 319 U.S. 770, 63 S. Ct.
1431, 87 L. Ed. 1718 (1943). [FN109] We find no evidence that the
prohibition of § 922(a) (6) obstructs the maintenance of a well
regulated militia. [FN110]

In Johnson, the Fourth Circuit upheld the Gun Control Act as
applied to a convicted felon who transported a firearm in interstate
commerce. [FN111] Regarding Johnson's Second Amendment claim, the
Circuit wrote that "The courts have consistently held that the Second
Amendment only confers a collective right of keeping and bearing arms
which must bear a 'reasonable relationship to the preservation or
efficiency of a well regulated militia." ' [FN112]
Now a "collective right" can be read two ways: it can be like
"collective property" in a Communist property; since it belongs to all
the people collectively, it belongs only to the government.
Alternatively, a "collective right" to arms can be a right of all the
people to have a militia, and for this purpose, *135 each person
has a right to possess arms for militia purposes (but not to possess
arms for other purposes, such as self-defense). [FN113] Indeed, this
is the approach taken by Aymette, the Tennessee Supreme Court case
which is the sole citation for the rule of decision in Miller; Aymette
states that the Second Amendment protects individual possession of
militia-type arms, so that those individuals may collectively exercise
their rights in a militia. [FN114]
Neither Lewis nor its three cited Court of Appeals cases claim
that the Second Amendment right belongs to state governments. And none
of them goes so far as to claim that law-abiding American citizens
have no Second Amendment right to possess arms. But Lewis and its
cited cases, especially Johnson, certainly come close to that
proposition. Although Halbrook's reading of Lewis is not formally
wrong, the spirit of Lewis has little in common with the Standard
Model of the Second Amendment.
If Lewis were the Supreme Court's last word on the Second
Amendment, the Standard Model, no matter how accurate in its
assessment of original intent, would seem on shaky ground as a
description of contemporary Supreme Court doctrine. But Lewis, while
not ancient, is no longer contemporary. As discussed above, six
subsequent Supreme Court cases have addressed the Second Amendment as
an individual right. Only two justices from the Lewis majority remain
on the Court, and both of those justices (Rehnquist and Stevens) have
written 1990s opinions which regard the Second Amendment as an
individual right.
The Rehnquist cases suggest that it is unlikely that the current
Court would read Lewis's hostile but ambiguous language as negating an
individual right.

B. Moore v. East Cleveland

Not only do the Rehnquist cases impede any effort to read Lewis as
the definitive state's right case, so does a case decided four years
before Lewis. The Moore v. East Cleveland litigation arose out of a
zoning regulation which made it illegal for extended families to live
together. [FN115] The plurality opinion by Justice Powell found in the
Fourteenth Amendment a general protection for families to make their
own living arrangements. [FN116] Thus, the East Cleveland law, which,
for example, forbade two minor cousins to live with their grandmother,
[FN117] was unconstitutional.
*136 In discussing the boundaries of the Fourteenth Amendment, the
Powell plurality opinion for the Court quoted from Justice Harlan's
dissent in Poe v. Ullman. This was the same language that was later
quoted by Justice O'Connor's majority opinion in Planned Parenthood v.
Casey, [FN118] and by Justice Stevens' dissent in Albright v. Oliver
[FN119]:

But unless we close our eyes to the basic reasons why certain rights
associated with the family have been accorded shelter under the
Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause, we cannot avoid applying
the force and rationale of these precedents to the family choice
involved in this case.
Understanding those reasons requires careful attention to this Court's
function under the Due Process clause. Mr. Justice Harlan described it
eloquently:
Due process cannot be reduced to any formula; its content cannot be
determined by reference to any code. . .The balance of which I speak
is the balance struck by this country, having regard to what history
teaches are the traditions from which it developed as well as the
traditions from which it broke. That tradition is a living thing. . .
.
[T]he full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause
cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific
guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution. This 'liberty" is
not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of
property; the freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to
keep and bear arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and
seizures; and so on. It is a rational continuum which broadly
speaking, includes freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions
and purposeless restraints" Poe v. Ullman, supra, at 542-543
(dissenting opinion). [FN120]

In dissent, Justice White also quoted from Justice Harlan's words
in Poe. While Justice White included the language about the Second
Amendment, he did not include the preceding paragraph about tradition.
[FN121]
Since the Fourteenth Amendment belongs exclusively to individuals,
and not to state governments, the only possible reading of Moore v.
East Cleveland is that the Second Amendment protects an individual
right.
The "tradition" paragraph from Justice Harlan, quoted by Justice
Powell, strengthens an argument for incorporating the Second
Amendment. The right to arms had roots as one of the "rights of
Englishmen" recognized by the English 1689 Bill of Rights, [FN122] and
was adopted in nine of the first fifteen states' *137 constitutions.
[FN123] When the Constitution was proposed, five state ratifying
conventions called for a right to arms--more than for any other single
right that became part of the Bill of Rights. [FN124] With the
exception of a single concurring opinion by an Arkansas judge in 1842,
[FN125] every known judicial opinion and scholarly commentary from the
nineteenth century treated the Second Amendment as an individual
right. [FN126]
Justice Harlan's "tradition is a living thing" analysis also looks
at whether the right in question is supported by modern "tradition."
The right to arms fares well under this analysis too. Between a third
and a half of all American households choose to own firearms, [FN127]
and many others own other types of "arms" (such as edged weapons)
which might fall within the scope of protected "arms." [FN128] Today,
forty-four state constitutions guarantee a right to arms [FN129]; in
15 states in the last three decades, voters have added or strengthened
an arms right to their state constitution, always by a very large
majority. [FN130] Twenty years ago, only a few states allowed ordinary
citizens to obtain a permit carry a concealed handgun for protection;
now twenty-nine states have "shall issue" laws, and two states require
no permit at all. [FN131]
Contrast all the "traditional" support for the right to arms with
the absence of such support for the Fifth Amendment's guarantee
against the taking of property without due process and just
compensation. No state ratifying convention had demanded such a
clause, and no such right was recognized in in the *138 English Bill
of Rights. [FN132] If the just compensation is "traditional" enough to
have been incorporated, as it has been, [FN133] the argument for
incorporating the Second Amendment is all the stronger.
But while the Harlan language quoted in East Cleveland has
favorable implications for Second Amendment incorporation, East
Cleveland does not itself perform the incorporation. [FN134]
And while East Cleveland's implication for the Second Amendment as
an individual right seems clear enough under its own terms, Justice
Powell's personal views appear to have changed after 1976. After
retiring from the Court, in 1988 he gave a speech to the American Bar
Association in which he said that the Constitution should not be
construed to guarantee a right to own handguns [FN135]; this speech
was not necessarily inconsistent with East Cleveland, since a Second
Amendment right to arms might exclude some types of arms. But in 1993,
Justice Powell went even further, suggesting in a television interview
that the Constitution should not be read to as guaranteeing a right to
own even sporting guns. [FN136]
*139 Whatever the evolution of Justice Powell's thoughts about gun
rights, the only words he ever put in the United States Reports treat
the Second Amendment as an individual right.

C. Adams v. Williams

The only written opinion from a Supreme Court Justice which
plainly rejects an individual right came from Justice Douglas,
dissenting in the 1972 case of Adams v. Williams. [FN137] Acting on a
tip, a police officer stopped a motorist for questioning, and then
grabbed a revolver hidden in the driver's waistband. [FN138] The
Supreme Court majority upheld the officer's actions as a reasonable
effort to protect his safety. [FN139]
Justice Douglas, a strong defender of the Fourth Amendment right to be
free from unreasonable searches, dissented. [FN140] After discussing
Fourth Amendment issues, Justice Douglas then editorialized in favor
of handgun control and prohibition, and asserted that the Second
Amendment posed no barrier to severe gun laws:

The police problem is an acute one not because of the Fourth
Amendment, but because of the ease with which anyone can acquire a
pistol. A powerful lobby dins into the ears of our citizenry that
these gun purchases are constitutional rights protected by the Second
Amendment, which reads, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to
the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear
Arms, shall not be infringed."
There is under our decisions no reason why stiff state laws governing
the purchase and possession of pistols may not be enacted. There is no
reason why pistols may not be barred from anyone with a police record.
There is no reason why a State may not require a purchaser of a pistol
to pass a psychiatric test. There is no reason why all pistols should
not be barred to everyone except the police.
The leading case is United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, upholding a
federal law making criminal the shipment in interstate commerce of a
sawed-off shotgun. The law was upheld, there being no evidence that a
sawed-off shotgun had "some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." Id., at 178.
The Second Amendment, it was held, "must be interpreted and applied"
with the view of maintaining a "militia."
"The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is
set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without
the consent *140 of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly
disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense
of country and laws could be secured through the Militia - civilians
primarily, soldiers on occasion." Id., at 178-179.
Critics say that proposals like this water down the Second Amendment.
Our decisions belie that argument, for the Second Amendment, as noted,
was designed to keep alive the militia. But if watering-down is the
mood of the day, I would prefer to water down the Second rather than
the Fourth Amendment. I share with Judge Friendly a concern that the
easy extension of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, to "possessory offenses"
is a serious intrusion on Fourth Amendment safeguards. "If it is to be
extended to the latter at all, this should be only where observation
by the officer himself or well authenticated information shows 'that
criminal activity may be afoot." ' 436 F.2d, at 39, quoting Terry v.
Ohio, supra, at 30. [FN141]

Justice Douglas's statement is a clear affirmation of the
anti-individual interpretation of the Second Amendment which is
espoused by the anti-gun lobbies. Since Justice Douglas was writing in
dissent, his opinion creates no legal precedent. Nevertheless, the
opinion is emblematic of the belief of some civil libertarians that
the move to "water down" the Fourth Amendment can be forestalled by
watering down the Second Amendment.
Justice Brennan did not join the Douglas dissent, but instead wrote
his own. Justice Brennan presciently noted that the Court's loose
standard for "stop and frisk" would become a tool for police officers
to search people at will, with officer safety often serving as a mere
pretext. [FN142] (Adams v. Williams is one of the key cases opening
the door to the broad variety of warrantless searches which are now
allowed.) Justice Brennan also noted the illogic of allowing
stop-and-frisk for guns in a state which allows citizens to carry
concealed handguns. [FN143] (Connecticut was one of the first states
to adopt "shall issue" laws for concealed handgun permits; now,
thirty-one states have such laws. [FN144])
Justice Marshall's dissent made a similar point, noting that after the
officer discovered the gun, he immediately arrested Williams, without
asking if Williams had a permit. [FN145]

D. Roe v. Wade

*141

The year after Justice Douglas took a clear stand against
individual Second Amendment rights in Adams, Justice Stewart authored
an opinion in the opposite direction.
The majority opinion in Roe v. Wade, [FN146] written by Justice
Harry Blackmun, has been justly criticized for having no connection
with the text of the Constitution, and only a tenuous connection with
the prior precedents of the Supreme Court. [FN147] Justice Potter
Stewart, perhaps recognizing the weakness of the Blackmun opinion,
authored a concurring opinion coming to the same result as Justice
Blackmun, but attempting to ground the result more firmly in
precedent. [FN148] As part of the analysis arguing that the right to
abortion was part of the "liberty" protected by the Fourteenth
Amendment, Justice Stewart quoted Justice Harlan's dissenting opinion
in Poe v. Ullman [FN149], which had listed the right to keep and bear
arms as among the liberties guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment:
As Mr. Justice Harlan once wrote: "[T]he full scope of the liberty
guaranteed by the Due Process Clause cannot be found in or limited by
the precise terms of the specific guarantees elsewhere provided in the
Constitution. This 'liberty' is not a series of isolated points
pricked out in terms of the taking of property; the freedom of speech,
press, and religion; the right to keep and bear arms; the freedom from
unreasonable searches and seizures; and so on. It is a rational
continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all
substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints . . . and
which also recognizes, what a reasonable and sensitive judgment must,
that certain interests require particularly careful scrutiny of the
state needs asserted to justify their abridgment." Poe v. Ullman, 367
U.S. 497, 543 (opinion dissenting from dismissal of appeal) (citations
omitted). In the words of Mr. Justice Frankfurter, "Great concepts
like . . . 'liberty' . . . were purposely left to gather meaning from
experience. For they relate to the whole domain of social and economic
fact, and the statesmen who founded this Nation knew too well that
only a stagnant society remains unchanged." National Mutual Ins. Co.
v. Tidewater Transfer Co., 337 U.S. 582, 646 (dissenting opinion).
[FN150]
Thus, the Harlan dissenting language about the Second Amendment,
from Poe v. Ullman, has been quoted in one majority opinion (Planned
Parenthood v. Casey [FN151]), one plurality opinion (Moore v. East
Cleveland [FN152]), two dissents*142 (Albright v. Oliver and Moore v.
East [FN153]), and one concurrence (Roe v. Wade [FN154]). In contrast,
the Douglas dissenting language about the Second Amendment, from Adams
v. Williams, [FN155] has never been quoted in an opinion by any
Justice.

E. Laird v. Tatum

During the Cold War and the Vietnam War, the United States Army
illegally spied on American anti-war critics. [FN156] When the Army's
conduct was to discovered, a group of individuals who had been spied
upon brought suit in federal court. [FN157] In a sharply divided
five-four decision, the Supreme Court majority held that the suit was
not justiciable. [FN158] The plaintiffs could not show that they had
been harmed by the Army, or that there was a realistic prospect of
future harm, and hence there was no genuine controversy for a federal
court to hear. [FN159] Justice Douglas (joined by Justice Marshal)
penned a fiery dissent, invoking the long struggle to free civil life
from military domination. [FN160]
Justice Douglas began by examining the power which the Constitution
grants Congress over the standing army and over the militia. [FN161]
Since Congress is not granted any power to use the army or militia for
domestic surveillance, it necessarily follows that the army has no
power on its own to begin a program of domestic surveillance. [FN162]
Moving onto a broader discussion of the dangers of military
dictatorship, Justice Douglas quoted an article which Chief Justice
Earl Warren had written in the New York University Law Review, which
mentioned the Second Amendment as one of the safeguards intended to
protect America from rule by a standing army. [FN163]
As Chief Justice Warren has observed, the safeguards in the main
body of the Constitution did not satisfy the people on their fear and
concern of military dominance:

"They were reluctant to ratify the Constitution without further
assurances, and thus we find in the Bill of Rights Amendments 2 and 3,
specifically authorizing a decentralized militia, guaranteeing the
right of the people to keep and bear arms, and prohibiting the
quartering of troops in any house in *143 time of peace without the
consent of the owner. Other Amendments guarantee the right of the
people to assemble, to be secure in their homes against unreasonable
searches and seizures, and in criminal cases to be accorded a speedy
and public trial by an impartial jury after indictment in the district
and state wherein the crime was committed. The only exceptions made to
these civilian trial procedures are for cases arising in the land and
naval forces. Although there is undoubtedly room for argument based on
the frequently conflicting sources of history, it is not unreasonable
to believe that our Founders' determination to guarantee the
preeminence of civil over military power was an important element that
prompted adoption of the Constitutional Amendments we call the Bill of
Rights." [FN164]

The Earl Warren law review language is, on its face, consistent with
individual rights. He listed the right to arms among other individual
rights, and he treated the Second Amendment's subordinate clause
(about the importance of well-regulated militia) as protecting
something distinct from the Second Amendment's main clause (the right
of the people to keep and bear arms). [FN165]
But based on Justice Douglas's dissent the same year in Adams, we
cannot ascribe to Justice Douglas the full implication of what Chief
Justice Warren wrote in the N.Y.U. Law Review. And while Chief Justice
Warren's N.Y.U. article is interesting, Chief Justice Warren never
wrote anything about the Second Amendment in a Supreme Court opinion.


III. The Warren, Vinson, and Hughes Courts


During the tenure of Chief Justices Earl Warren (1953-69) and Fred
Vinson (1946-53), opinions in nine cases addressed the Second
Amendment. Seven of those opinions (majority opinions by Justices
Brennan, Frankfurter, Harlan, and Jackson; a concurrence by Justice
Black; and dissents by Justices Black and Harlan) recognized an
individual right in the Second Amendment. The eighth case, an "appeal
dismissed" contained no explanation, and thus was consistent with both
the Standard Model individual right and the Henigan/Bogus state's
right. The earliest case in this period was a 1934 decision that used
the Second Amendment to support a state's right to control its
militia. [FN166]

A. Burton v. Sills

*144 Burton v. Sills involved a challenge to the then- new gun
licensing law in New Jersey. [FN167] The law did not ban any guns, but
established a licensing system intended to screen out people with
serious criminal convictions, substance abusers, and the like. After
the New Jersey Supreme Court rejected a Second Amendment challenge to
the law [FN168], the plaintiffs asked the Supreme Court to review the
case; the request came in the form of an "appeal," rather than a
petition for a writ of certiorari. [FN169]
The United States Supreme Court declined to hear the case. [FN170]
Since the case had come by appeal, rather than petition for a writ,
the Court wrote the standard phrase used at the time in denying an
appeal: "The motion to dismiss is granted and the appeal is dismissed
for want of a substantial federal question." [FN171]
The Supreme Court has explained that dismissals such as the one in
Burton have some value in guiding lower courts:
Summary affirmances and dismissals for want of a substantial federal
question without doubt reject the specific challenges presented in the
statement of jurisdiction and do leave undisturbed the judgment
appealed from. They do prevent lower courts from coming to opposite
conclusions on the precise issues presented and necessarily decided by
those actions. After Salera, for example, other courts were not free
to conclude that the Pennsylvania provision invalidated was
nevertheless constitutional. Summary actions, however, including
Salera, should not be understood as breaking new ground but as
applying principles established by prior decisions to the particular
facts involved. [FN172]
Thus, following the appeal dismissal in Burton v. Sills, a lower
federal court could not conclude that the New Jersey gun licensing law
violated the Second Amendment.
The appeal dismissal does not necessarily endorse the reasoning of
the state court against which the appeal was taken. (The New Jersey
Supreme Court had said that the Second Amendment is not an individual
right. [FN173])
*145 The plaintiffs in Burton had conceded that prior Supreme
Court cases (particularly the 1886 Presser case) had said that the
Second Amendment limits only the federal government, and not state
governments. [FN174] The plaintiffs invited the courts to use the
Burton case as an opportunity to reverse prior precedent. [FN175] The
appeal dismissal in Burton may be read as the Court's declining the
invitation to re-open the issue decided by Presser.
Justice Thomas's concurrence in Printz, [FN176] suggesting that
the Brady Act waiting period may violate the Second Amendment, implies
he would not read Burton as asserting that a New Jersey-style gun
licensing system would be constitutional if enacted by the Congress.
Reading Burton as an authorization for sweeping federal gun licensing
would be inconsistent with the Supreme Court's teaching that appeal
dismissals "should not be understood as breaking new ground." [FN177]
Given the plaintiffs' requested grounds for Supreme Court review
(to overturn Presser) it is logical to view Burton as a re-affirmance
of Presser. [FN178]
On the other hand, since Burton contains no explicit reasoning,
the case is not directly contradictory to the Henigan/Bogus theory.

B. Duncan v. Louisiana

In this case, the Supreme Court incorporated the Sixth Amendment
right to jury trial, as part of the Fourteenth Amendment's "due
process" guarantee. [FN179] Justice Black, joined by Justice Douglas,
concurred, and restated his argument from Adamson v. California
[FN180] (infra) that the Fourteenth Amendment's "privileges and
immunities" clause should be read to include everything in the first
eight Amendments. [FN181] He quoted a statement made on the Senate
floor by Senator Jacob Howard, one of the lead sponsors of the
Fourteenth Amendment:

Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of in
the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution. . .To
these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be--for they are
not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise
nature--to these should be added the personal rights guaranteed and
secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the
freedom of speech and of the press; the right of the people *146
peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of
grievances, a right appertaining to each and all the people; the right
to keep and bear arms; the right to be exempted from the quartering of
soldiers in a house without consent of the owner. . . . [FN182]

Justice Black's use in Duncan of the quote describing "the right to
keep and bear arms" as one of "the personal rights guaranteed and
secured by the first eight amendments" is fully consistent with his
writing on the bench and in legal scholarship that the Second
Amendment right to arms was one of the individual rights which the
Fourteenth Amendment (properly interpreted) makes into a limit on
state action. [FN183]

C. Malloy v. Hogan

This 1964 case used the Fourteenth Amendment's due process clause
to incorporate the Fifth Amendment's privilege against
self-incrimination. [FN184] Discussing the history of Fourteenth
Amendment jurisprudence, Justice Brennan listed various "Decisions
that particular guarantees were not safeguarded against state action
by the Privileges and Immunities Clause or other provision of the
Fourteenth Amendment." [FN185] Among these were "Presser v. Illinois,
116 U.S. 252, 265 (Second Amendment)," [FN186] along with various
other cases, almost of which had been, or would be, repudiated by
later decisions on incorporation. [FN187]
As discussed above, any discussion of the Second Amendment as
something which could be incorporated, even if no incorporation has
been performed, necessarily presumes that the Second Amendment is an
individual right. Justice Brennan's explication of Presser as a case
which rejects privileges and immunities incorporation is of some
significance as a modern interpretation of Presser, since, as we shall
discuss infra, the years after the1886 *147 Presser decision generated
a variety of opinions about whether Presser actually had rejected
incorporation.

D. Konigsberg v. State Bar of California

In Konigsberg, the Court majority upheld the state of California's
refusal to admit to the practice of law an applicant who refused
answer questions about his beliefs regarding communism. [FN188] In
dissent, Justice Black argued that First Amendment rights were
absolute and that the inquiry into the prospective lawyer's political
beliefs was therefore a violation of the First Amendment. [FN189]
Justice Harlan's majority opinion rejected Justice Black's
standard of constitutional absolutism. [FN190] The Harlan majority
opinion is one of the classic examples of the "balancing" methodology
of jurisprudence. [FN191] Justice Harlan pointed to libel laws as laws
which restrict speech, but which do not infringe the First Amendment.
[FN192] Similarly, he pointed to the Supreme Court's ruling in United
States v. Miller as an example of a law which restricted the absolute
exercise of rights, but which had been held not to be
unconstitutional. [FN193] Justice Harlan thereby treated the First and
Second Amendment as constitutionally identical: guaranteeing an
individual right, but not an absolute right.
n. 10. That view, which of course cannot be reconciled with the law
relating to libel, slander, misrepresentation, obscenity, perjury,
false advertising, solicitation of crime, complicity by encouragement,
conspiracy, and the like, is said to be compelled by the fact that the
commands of the First Amendment are stated in unqualified terms:
"Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom speech, or of
the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble . . . ."
But as Mr. Justice Holmes once said: "[T] he provisions of the
Constitution are not mathematical formulas having their essence in
their form; they are organic living institutions transplanted from
English soil. Their significance is vital not formal; it is to be
gathered not simply by taking the words and a dictionary, but by
considering their origin and the line of their growth." Gompers v.
United States, 233 U.S. 604, 610. In this connection also compare the
equally unqualified command of the Second Amendment: "the right of the
people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." And see United
States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174. [FN194]
The year before Justice Black's absolutist interpretative model
was rejected by the majority of the Court, Justice Black had detailed
the absolutist theory *148 in the first annual James Madison lecture
at the New York University School of Law. [FN195] Discussing each part
of the Bill of Rights, Justice Black explained how each guarantee was
unequivocal and absolute. For example, under the Sixth Amendment, a
defendant had a "definite and absolute" right to confront the
witnesses against him. [FN196] Regarding the Second Amendment, Justice
Black explained:
Amendment Two provides that:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed.
Although the Supreme Court has held this Amendment to include only
arms necessary to a well-regulated militia, as so construed, its
prohibition is absolute. [FN197]

Did Justice Black mean that individuals have an absolute right to
possess militia-type arms, or did Justice Black mean that state
governments have an absolute right to arm the state militias as the
state governments see fit? His view is particularly important, because
he served on the Court that decided Miller, and he joined in the
Court's unanimous opinion.
Throughout the New York University speech, Justice Black referred
exclusively to individual rights, and never to state's rights. For
example, he began his speech by explaining "I prefer to think of our
Bill of Rights as including all provisions of the original
Constitution and Amendments that protect individual liberty. . ."
[FN198] If Justice Black thought that the Second Amendment protected
state power, rather than individual liberty, he would not have
included the Second Amendment in his litany of "absolute" guarantees
in the Bill of Rights. In the discussion of Adamson v. California,
infra, we will see "definite and absolute" proof that Justice Black
considered the Second Amendment an individual right.

E. Poe v. Ullman

In the 1961 case Poe v. Ullman, the Court considered whether
married persons had a right to use contraceptives. [FN199] The
majority said "no," but the second Justice Harlan, in a dissent (which
gained ascendancy a few years later in Griswold v. Connecticut), wrote
that the Fourteenth Amendment did guarantee a right of privacy. In
developing a theory of exactly what the Fourteenth Amendment due
process clause did protect, Justice Harlan wrote that the clause was
not limited exclusively to "the precise terms of the specific
guarantees *149 elsewhere provided in the Constitution," such as "the
freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to keep and bear
arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures." [FN200]
It is impossible to read Justice Harlan's words as anything other
than a recognition that the Second Amendment protects the right of
individual Americans to possess firearms. The due process clause of
the Fourteenth Amendment, obviously, protects a right of individuals
against governments; it does not protect governments, nor is it some
kind of "collective" right. It is also notable that Justice Harlan
felt no need to defend or elaborate his position that the Second
Amendment guaranteed an individual right. Despite the Henigan claim
that the non-individual nature of the Second Amendment is "well-
settled," it was unremarkable to Justice Harlan that the Second
Amendment guaranteed the right of individual people to keep and bear
arms.
Like the Brandeis and Holmes dissents in the early free speech
cases, the Harlan dissent in Poe today seems to be a correct statement
of the law.
Some parts of the Harlan dissent, however, have not been quoted by
future courts. For example, even though later opinions have quoted
approvingly the Harlan language that the Fourteenth Amendment forbids
"all substantial arbitrary impositions," [FN201] those quotations omit
the list of cases that Justice Harlan cited for the proposition. That
list included Allgeyer v. Louisiana [FN202] and Nebbia v. New York,
[FN203] both of which used the Fourteenth Amendment in defense of
economic liberty. But Justice Harlan was certainly right that modern
use of the Fourteenth Amendment to protect non- enumerated rights has
its roots in the liberty of contract due process cases from the turn
of the century. Although it is not currently respectable to say so in
a Supreme Court opinion, cases such as Allgeyer and its progeny have
as much a logical claim to be part of the Fourteenth Amendment as do
Griswold [FN204] and its progeny; both lines of cases protect personal
freedom from "substantial arbitrary impositions."
But the fact that Allgeyer and Nebbia end up trimmed in later
quotations of Justice Harlan's words shows that the Justices who used
the quote later (Stevens, O'Connor, Powell, and Stewart) were not just
quoting without thought; they knew how to excise parts of Harlan's
language that they did not agree with, such as the references to
economic liberty. That economic liberty was excised, while the Second
Amendment stayed in, may, therefore, be plausibly considered as the
writer's decision.
*150 Also unquoted by later Courts has been Justice Harlan's
statement, "Again and again this Court has resisted the notion that
the Fourteenth Amendment is no more than a shorthand reference to what
is explicitly set out elsewhere in the Bill of Rights." [FN205] In
support of this proposition, he cited, inter alia, Presser v.
Illinois, a nineteenth century case which will be discussed infra.
Interestingly, Justice Douglas wrote his own dissent, in which he
stated that the Fourteenth Amendment must protect "all" the Bill of
Rights. [FN206] This implies that the Second Amendment is an
individual right, if it can be protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.
But Justice Douglas later rejected this view, in his Adams v. Williams
dissent. [FN207]

F. Knapp v. Schweitzer

Knapp involved the applicability of the Fifth Amendment's
self-incrimination clause to the states. [FN208] Justice Frankfurter's
majority opinion refused to enforce the clause against the states. In
support of his position, the Justice reeled off a list of nineteenth
century cases, including Cruikshank (discussed infra) which he cited
for the proposition that it was well-settled almost all of the
individual rights guarantees in the Bill of Rights were not applicable
to the states:

n. 5. By 1900 the applicability of the Bill of Rights to the States
had been rejected in cases involving claims based on virtually every
provision in the first eight Articles of Amendment. See, e. g.,
Article I: Permoli v. Municipality No. 1, 3 How. 589, 609 (free
exercise of religion); UnitedStates v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 552
(right to assemble and petition the Government); Article II: United
States v. Cruikshank, supra, at 553 (right to keep and bear arms);
Article IV: Smith v. Maryland, 18 How. 71, 76 (no warrant except on
probable cause); Spies v. Illinois, 123 U.S. 131, 166 (security
against unreasonable searches and seizures); Article V: Barron v.
Baltimore, note 2, supra, at 247 (taking without just compensation);
Fox v. Ohio, 5 How. 410, 434 (former jeopardy); Twitchell v.
Pennsylvania, 7 Wall. 321, 325-327 (deprivation of life without due
process of law); Spies v. Illinois, supra, at 166 (compulsory
self-*151 incrimination); Eilenbecker v. Plymouth County, 134 U.S. 31,
34-35 (presentment or indictment by grand jury); Article VI: Twitchell
v. Pennsylvania, supra, at 325-327 (right to be informed of nature and
cause of accusation); Spies v. Illinois, supra, at 166 (speedy and
public trial by impartial jury); In re Sawyer, 124 U.S. 200, 219
(compulsory process); Eilenbecker v. Plymouth County, supra, at 34-35
(confrontation of witnesses); Article VII: Livingston's Lessee v.
Moore, 7 Pet. 469, 551-552 (right of jury trial in civil cases);
Justices v. Murray, 9 Wall. 274, 278 (re-examination of facts tried by
jury); Article VIII: Pervear v. Massachusetts, 5 Wall. 475, 479- 480
(excessive fines, cruel and unusual punishments). [FN209]

Here again, the Court majority treated the Second Amendment right to
arms as simply one of the many individual rights guarantees contained
in the Bill of Rights.



G. Johnson v. Eisentrager

After the surrender of Germany during World War II, some German
soldiers in China aided the Japanese army, in the months that Japan
continued to fight alone. [FN210] The American army captured them, and
tried them by court-martial in China as war criminals. [FN211] The
Germans argued that the trial violated their Fifth Amendment rights,
and pointed out that the Fifth Amendment is not by its terms limited
to American citizens. [FN212]
Justice Jackson's majority opinion held that Germans had no Fifth
Amendment rights. [FN213] He pointed out that if Germans could invoke
the Fifth Amendment, they could invoke the rest of the Bill of Rights.
[FN214] This would lead to the absurd result of American soldiers, in
obedience to the Second Amendment, being forbidden to disarm the
enemy:
If the Fifth Amendment confers its rights on all the world except
Americans engaged in defending it, [FN215] the same must be true of
the companion civil-rights Amendments, for none of them is limited by
its express terms, territorially or as to persons. Such a construction
would mean that during military occupation irreconcilable enemy
elements, guerrilla fighters, and "were-wolves" could require the
American Judiciary to assure them freedoms of speech, press, and
assembly as in the First Amendment, right to bear arms as in the
Second, security against "unreasonable" searches and seizures as in
the *152 Fourth, as well as rights to jury trial as in the Fifth and
Sixth Amendments. [FN216] The "irreconcilable enemy elements,
guerrilla fighters, and 'were-wolves" ' in Justice Jackson's
hypothetical are obviously not American state governments. Instead
they are individuals and as individuals would have Second Amendment
rights, if the Second Amendment were to apply to non-Americans.
[FN217] Interestingly, Justice Jackson's reasoning echoed an argument
made in Ex Parte Milligan by the Attorney General: the Fifth Amendment
must contain implicit exceptions, which allow trial of civilians under
martial law; the whole Bill of Rights contains implicit exceptions,
for without such exceptions, it would be a violation of the Second
Amendment to disarm rebels, and the former slave states' forbidding
the slaves to own guns would likewise have been unconstitutional.
[FN218]

*155

H. Adamson v. California

In the Adamson case, the defendant was convicted after a trial in
a California state court; California law allowed the judge to instruct
the jury that the jury could draw adverse inferences from a
defendant's failure to testify. [FN219] This jury instruction was
plainly inconsistent with established Fifth Amendment doctrine;
[FN220] but did the Fifth Amendment apply in state courts, or only in
federal courts?
The Adamson majority held that the Fifth Amendment's protection
against compelled self-incrimination was not made enforceable in state
courts by the Fourteenth Amendment's command that states not deprive a
person of life, liberty, or property without "due process of law."
[FN221]
In dissent, Justice Black (joined by Justice Douglas) argued that the
Fourteenth Amendment made all of the Bill of Rights enforceable
against the states, via the Amendment's mandate: "No state shall make
or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of
citizens of the United States." [FN222] Listing a series of 19th
century cases in which the Supreme Court had refused to make certain
individual rights from the Bill of Rights enforceable against the
states (including Presser, involving the right to keep and bear arms),
Justice Black argued that the Court's prior cases had not been so
explicit as to foreclose the current Court from considering the issue:

Later, but prior to the Twining case, this Court decided that the
following were not "privileges or immunities" of national citizenship,
so as to make them immune against state invasion: the Eighth
Amendment's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment, In re
Kemmler, 136 U.S. 436; the Seventh Amendment's guarantee of a jury
trial in civil cases, Walker v. Sauvinet, 92 U.S. 90; the Second
Amendment's 'right of the people to keep and bear arms. . .,' Presser
v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 584; the Fifth and Sixth Amendments'
requirements for indictment in capital or other infamous crimes, and
for trial by jury in criminal prosecutions, Maxwell v. Dow, 176 U.S.
581. While it can be argued that these cases implied that no one of
the provisions of the Bill of Rights was made applicable to the states
as attributes of national citizenship, no one of them expressly so
decided. In fact, the Court in Maxwell v. Dow, supra, 176 U.S. at
pages 597, 598, 20 S.Ct. at page 455, concluded no more than that 'the
privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States do not
necessarily include all the rights protected by the first eight
amendments to *156 the Federal Constitution against the powers of the
Federal government.' Cf. Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 329, 153.
[FN223] Thus, Justice Black put the Second Amendment in the same boat
as Amendments Five, Six, Seven, and Eight: individual rights which
prior Courts had declined to enforce against the states, but which the
present Court still had the choice to incorporate.

In a lengthy Appendix, Justice Black set forth the history of the
creation of the Fourteenth Amendment, quoting at length from
congressional proponents of the Amendment, who indicated that the
Amendment was intended to make all of the rights in the first eight
amendments of the Bill of Rights enforceable against the states.
[FN224] This view, held by Justice Black and many of the backers of
the Fourteenth Amendment, is of course inconsistent with the idea that
the Second Amendment guarantees only a right of state governments. The
point of the Fourteenth Amendment is to make individual rights
enforceable against state governments.
First, the Appendix set forth the background to the Fourteenth
Amendment. Congress had enacted the Civil Rights Bill in response to
problems in states such as Mississippi, where, Senator Trumball
(Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee) explained, there was a
statute to "prohibit any negro or mulatto from having firearms. . ."
[FN225] When the Civil Rights Bill went to the House, Rep. Raymond,
who opposed the Bill "conceded that it would guarantee to the negro
'the right of free passage. . .He has a defined status. . . .a right
to defend himself. . .to bear arms. . . .to testify in the Federal
courts." [FN226]
Then,

On May 23, 1866, Senator Howard introduced the proposed amendment to
the Senate in the absence of Senator Fessenden who was sick. Senator
Howard prefaced his remarks by stating:
"I. . .present to the Senate. . .the views and the motives [of the
Reconstruction Committee]. . . .One result of their investigation has
been the joint resolution for the amendment of the Constitution of the
United States now under consideration. . . .
"The first section of the amendment. . .submitted for the
consideration of the two Houses, relates to the privileges and
immunities of citizens of the several States, and to the rights and
privileges of all persons, whether citizens or others, under the laws
of the United States. . . .
. . .
*157 "Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of
in the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution. To
these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be--for they are
not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise
nature--to these should be added the personal rights guarantied and
secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the
freedom of speech and of the press; the right of the people peaceably
to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, a
right appertaining to each and all the people; the right to keep and
to bear arms; the right to be exempted from the quartering of soldiers
in a house without the consent of the owner; the right to be exempt
from unreasonable searches and seizures, and from any search or
seizure except by virtue of a warrant issued upon a formal oath or
affidavit; the right of an accused person to be informed of the nature
of the accusation against him, and his right to be tried by an
impartial jury of the vicinage; and also the right to be secure
against excessive bail and against cruel and unusual punishments.
[FN227]

Later in the Appendix, Justice Black quoted Rep. Dawes's statement
that by the Constitution the American citizen

"secured the free exercise of his religious belief, and freedom of
speech and of the press. Then again he had secured to him the right to
keep and bear arms in his defense. Then, after that, his home was
secured in time of peace from the presence of a soldier. . . ."
[FN228]
. . . .
"It is all these, Mr. Speaker, which are comprehended in the words
'American citizen,' and it is to protect and to secure him in these
rights, privileges, and immunities this bill is before the House. And
the question to be settled is, whether by the Constitution, in which
these provisions are inserted, there is also power to guard, protect,
and enforce these rights of the citizens; whether they are more,
indeed, than a mere declaration of rights, carrying with it no power
of enforcement. . . ." Cong. Globe, 42d Cong., 1st Sess. Part I (1871)
475, 476. [FN229]

Also dissenting, Justice Murphy wrote "that the specific guarantees of
the Bill of Rights should be carried over intact into the first
Section of the Fourteenth Amendment." [FN230] The Second Amendment
implications of his statement are the same as for Justice Black's
longer exposition, although Justice Murphy did not enumerate the
Second Amendment, or any other right.
Senator Howard, quoted by Justice Black, listed the individual
right to arms in its natural order among the other individual rights
listed in the Bill of Rights. *158 FN231] The Henigan/Bogus state's
right theory, however, requires us to believe that when Congress sent
the Bill of Rights to the states, Congress first listed four
individual rights (in the First Amendment), then created a state's
right (in the Second Amendment), and then reverted to a litany of
individual rights (Amendments Three through Eight). [FN232] Finally,
Congress explicitly guaranteed a state's right in the Tenth Amendment.
[FN233] While Congress used "the people" to refer to people in the
First, Fourth, and Ninth Amendments, Congress used "the people" to
mean "state governments" in the Second Amendment. [FN234] Finally,
even though Congress had used "the people" in the Second Amendment to
mean "the states," Congress in the Tenth Amendment explicitly
distinguished "the people" from "the states," reserving powers "to the
States respectively, or to the people." [FN235]
Which reading is more sensible: The Black/Howard/Dawes reading,
under which "the people" means the same thing throughout the Bill of
Rights, and which makes all of the first eight amendments into a
straightforward list of individual rights, or the Henigan/Bogus
theory, which requires that "the people" change meanings repeatedly,
and which inserts a state's right in the middle of a litany of
individual rights?

H. Hamilton v. Regents

This case has been almost entirely overlooked by Second Amendment
scholarship. [FN236] Hamilton's obscurity is especially surprising,
since it is the one Supreme Court case which actually uses the Second
Amendment in the way that we would expect the Amendment to be used if
it were a state's right: to bolster state authority over the militia.
Two University of California students, the sons of pacifist
ministers, sued to obtain an exemption from participation in the
University of California's mandatory military training program.
[FN237] The two students did not contest the state of California's
authority to force them to participate in state militia exercises, but
they argued, in part, that the university's training program was so
closely connected with the U.S. War Department as to not really be a
militia program. [FN238] A unanimous Court disagreed, and stated that
California's acceptance of federal assistance in militia training did
not transform the training *159 program into an arm of the standing
army. States had the authority to made their own judgements about
training:
So long as [the state's] action is within retained powers and not
inconsistent with any exertion of the authority of the national
government, and transgresses no right safeguarded to the citizen by
the Federal Constitution, the State is the sole judge of the means to
be employed and the amount of training to be exacted for the effective
accomplishment of these ends. Second Amendment. Houston v. Moore, 5
Wheat. 1, 16-17, Dunne v. People, (1879) 94 Ill. 120, 129. 1 Kent's
Commentaries 265, 389. Cf. Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252. [FN239]
Thus, the Court used the Second Amendment to support of a point about
a state government's power over its militia.
This usage was not consistent with a meaningful state's right
theory. A state's right Second Amendment, to have any legal content,
would have to give the state some exemption from the exercise of
federal powers. [FN240] But the Court wrote that the state's
discretion in militia training must be "not inconsistent with any
exertion of the authority of the national government." [FN241]
Another way to read Hamilton's Second Amendment citation would be
as a reminder of the expectation by all the Founders that states would
supervise the militia. This reminder would be consistent with the
state's rights theory and with the standard model.
The authorities cited along with "Second Amendment" by the
Hamilton Court do not support a reading of the Second Amendment as
guaranteeing a state's right, but instead support an individual right.
Houston v. Moore (to be discussed in more detail below), involved
the state of Pennsylvania's authority to punish a man for evading
service in the federal militia, which had been called to fight the war
of 1812. [FN242] The report of the attorneys' arguments, on both
sides, shows that the Second Amendment was not raised as an issue.
[FN243] The Houston pages which were cited by the Hamilton Court
contain the statement, spanning the two pages, that "[A]s state
militia, the power of the state governments to legislate on the same
subjects [organizing, arming, disciplining, training, and officering
the militia], having existed prior to the formation of the
constitution, and not having been prohibited by that instrument, it
remains with the states, subordinate nevertheless to the paramount law
of the general government, operating on the same subject." [FN244] In
other words, state militia powers were inherent in the *160 nature of
state sovereignty, and continue to exist except to the extent limited
by Congress under its Constitutional militia powers.
In Dunne v. People, the Illinois Supreme Court affirmed the
centrality of state power over the militia, citing the Tenth Amendment
and the Houston v. Moore precedent. [FN245] The Dunne court also
explained how a state's constitutional duty to operate a militia was
complemented by the right of the state's citizens to have arms:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free
State," the States, by an amendment to the constitution, have imposed
a restriction that Congress shall not infringe the right of the
"people to keep and bear arms." The chief executive officer of the
State is given power by the constitution to call out the militia "to
execute the laws, suppress insurrection and repel invasion." [FN246]
This would be a mere barren grant of power unless the State had power
to organize its own militia for its own purposes. Unorganized, the
militia would be of no practical aid to the executive in maintaining
order and in protecting life and property within the limits of the
State. These are duties that devolve on the State, and unless these
rights are secured to the citizen, of what worth is the State
government? [FN247]

The cited pages of Kent's Commentaries discuss state versus federal
powers over the militia. Chancellor Kent uses Martin v. Mott [FN248]
to show that a President's decision that there is a need to call out
the militia is final. Houston v. Moore [FN249] (state authority to
prosecute a person for refusing a federal militia call) is used to
show that if the federal government neglects its constitutional duty
to organize, arm, and discipline the militia, the states have the
inherent authority to do so. The Second Amendment was not used by Kent
or by Kent's cited cases to support his propositions.
Presser v. Illinois will be discussed below; the case affirmed a
state's authority to make a gun control law (a ban on armed parades in
public) which contained an exemption for the state's organized
militia. [FN250]
Later in the opinion, the Hamilton Court quoted United States v.
Schwimmer, a 1929 decision which held that an immigrant pacifist's
refusal to bear arms in the army or in the Second Amendment's
well-regulated militia proved that the immigrant was not fit for
citizenship. [FN251]



*161


IV. The Taft, Fuller, and Waite Courts


Between the end of Reconstruction and the New Deal, there were eleven
opinions (all but one a majority opinion) touching on the Second
Amendment. Most involved the scope of the "privileges and immunities"
which the Fourteenth Amendment protected from state interference. Nine
of the opinions (including the one dissent) treated the Second
Amendment as an individual right, while the tenth was ambiguous, and
the eleventh refused to address any of a plaintiff's arguments (of
which the Second Amendment was one) because of a lack of injury and
hence a lack of standing.

A. United States v. Schwimmer

A divided Supreme Court held that a female pacifist who wished to
become a United States citizen could be denied citizenship because of
her energetic advocacy of pacifism. [FN252] The Court majority found
the promotion of pacifism inconsistent with good citizenship because
it dissuaded people from performing their civic duties, including the
duty to bear arms in a well regulated militia. [FN253] Since it is
agreed by Standard Modelers and their critics alike that the federal
and state governments have the authority to compel citizens to perform
militia service, the Schwimmer opinion does not help resolve the
individual rights controversy:

That it is the duty of citizens by force of arms to defend our
government against all enemies whenever necessity arises is a
fundamental principle of the Constitution.
The common defense was one of the purposes for which the people
ordained and established the Constitution. It empowers Congress to
provide for such defense, to declare war, to raise and support armies,
to maintain a navy, to make rules for the government and regulation of
the land and naval forces, to provide for organizing, arming, and
disciplining the militia, and for calling it forth to execute the laws
of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; it makes the
President commander in chief of the army and navy and of the militia
of the several states when called into the service of the United
States; it declares that, a well-regulated militia being necessary to
the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear
arms shall not be infringed. We need not refer to the numerous
statutes that contemplate defense of the United States, its
Constitution and laws, by armed citizens. This court, in the Selective
Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366, page 378, 38 S. Ct. 159, 161 (62 L. Ed.
349, L. R. A. 1918C, 361, Ann. Cas. 1918B, 856), speaking through
Chief Justice White, said that "the very conception of a just
government and its duty to the citizen includes the reciprocal
obligation of the citizen to render military service in case of need.
. . ."
*162 Whatever tends to lessen the willingness of citizens to discharge
their duty to bear arms in the country's defense detracts from the
strength and safety of the Government. . . .The influence of
conscientious objectors against the use of military force in defense
of the principles of our Government is apt to be more detrimental than
their mere refusal to bear arms. . .her objection to military service
rests on reasons other than mere inability because of her sex and age
personally to bear arms. [FN254]

Schwimmer illustrates two points about which the Standard Model
authors agree with Bogus and Henigan: first, the phrase "bear arms" in
the Second Amendment can have militia service connotations. The
Standard Modelers (and Justice Ginsburg) [FN255], however, disagree
with Bogus and Henigan's claim that "bear arms" always has a
militia/military meaning, and never any other. Second, Schwimmer
illustrates that bearing arms can be a duty of citizenship which the
government can impose on the citizen. While opponents of the standard
model use this fact to argue that the Second Amendment is about a
duty, and not about an individual right, [FN256] the Standard Model
professors respond by pointing to jury service, to show that an
individual constitutional right (the right to be eligible for jury
service [FN257]) can also be a duty.

B. Stearns v. Wood

This case came to the Court after World War I had broken out in
Europe. [FN258] The U.S. War Department had sent "Circular 8" to the
various National Guards, putting restrictions on promotion. Plaintiff
Stearns, a Major in the Ohio National Guard, was thereby deprived of
any opportunity to win promotion above the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
[FN259] Stearns argued that Circular 8 violated the Preamble to the
Constitution, Article One's specification of Congressional powers over
the militia, Article One's grant of army powers to the Congress,
Article Two's making the President the Commander in Chief of the
militia when called into federal service, the Second Amendment, and
the Tenth Amendment. [FN260]
Writing for a unanimous Court, Justice McReynolds contemptuously
dismissed Stearns' claim without reaching the merits. [FN261] Since
Stearns' present rank *163 of Major was undisturbed, there was no
genuine controversy for the Court to consider, and the Court would not
render advisory opinions. [FN262]
Even though the Court never reached the merits of the Second
Amendment argument, it is possible to draw some inferences simply from
the fact that the Second Amendment argument was made in the case.
First of all, Major Stearns' argument shows that using the Second
Amendment to criticize federal control of the National Guard was not
an absurd argument--or at least no more absurd than using the Preamble
to the Constitution for the same purpose. And after the 1905 Kansas
Supreme Court case Salina v. Blaksley ruled that the Kansas
constitution's right to arms (and, by analogy, the U.S. Second
Amendment) protected the state government, and not the citizen of
Kansas, [FN263] Stearns' attorney's argument did have some foundation
in case law.

C. Twining v. New Jersey

In Twining, the Supreme Court (with the first Harlan in dissent)
refused to make the Fifth Amendment self-incrimination guarantee in
the Bill of Rights applicable to state trials, via the Fourteenth
Amendment. [FN264] In support of this result, the majority listed
other individual rights which had not been made enforceable against
the states, under the Privileges and Immunities clause:
The right to trial by jury in civil cases, guaranteed by the
Seventh Amendment (Walker v. Sauvinet, 92 U.S. 90), and the right to
bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment (Presser v. Illinois, 116
U.S. 252) have been distinctly held not to be privileges and
immunities of citizens of the United States guaranteed by the
Fourteenth Amendment against abridgement by the States, and in effect
the same decision was made in respect of the guarantee against
prosecution, except by indictment of a grand jury, contained in the
Fifth Amendment (Hurtado v. California, 110 U.S. 516), and in respect
to the right to be confronted with witnesses, contained in the Sixth
Amendment. West v. Louisiana, 194 U.S. 258. In Maxwell v. Dow, supra.
. .it was held that indictment, made indispensable by the Fifth
Amendment, and the trial by jury guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment,
were not privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States.
[FN265]
The Second Amendment here appears--along with Seventh Amendment
civil juries, Sixth Amendment confrontation, and Fifth Amendment grand
juries--as a right of individuals, but a right only enforceable
against the federal government. As we shall see below, the exact
meaning of the 1886 Presser case was subject to dispute; some argued
that the case simply upheld a particular gun control as not being in
violation of the Second Amendment,*164 while others argued that
Presser held that the Second Amendment was not one of the "Privileges
and Immunities" which the Fourteenth Amendment protects against state
action. Twining clearly takes the latter view.

D. Maxwell v. Dow

Maxwell was the majority's decision (again, over Harlan's dissent)
not to make the right to a jury in a criminal case into one of the
Privileges or Immunities protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.
[FN266] Regarding the Second Amendment and Presser, the Court wrote:
In Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, it was held that the Second
Amendment to the Constitution, in regard to the right of the people to
bear arms, is a limitation only on the power of the Congress and the
National Government, and not of the States. It was therein said,
however, that as all citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the
reserved military force of the National Government, the States could
not prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, so as to
deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining
the public security, and disable the people from performing their duty
to the General Government. [FN267]
The Maxwell description of Presser was somewhat narrower than
Twining's description. Maxwell used Presser only to show that the
Second Amendment does not in itself apply to the states; Twining used
Presser to show that the Fourteenth Amendment privileges and
immunities clause did not make the Second Amendment indirectly
applicable to the states.

E. Trono v. United States, and Kepner v. United States

After the United States won the Spanish-American War, the
Philippines were ceded to the United States. American control was
successfully imposed only after several years of hard warfare
suppressed Filipinos fighting for independence. [FN268] Congress in
1902 enacted legislation imposing most, but not all of the Bill of
Rights on the Territorial Government of the Philippines. The 1905
Trono [FN269] case and the 1904 Kepner [FN270] case both grew out of
criminal prosecutions in the Philippines in which the defendant
claimed his rights had been violated.
In Trono, at the beginning of the Justice Peckham's majority
opinion, the Congressional act imposing the Bill of Rights was
summarized:
*165 The whole language [of the Act] is substantially taken from the
Bill of Rights set forth in the amendments to the Constitution of the
United States, omitting the provisions in regard to the right of trial
by jury and the right of the people to bear arms, and containing the
prohibition of the 13th Amendment, and also prohibiting the passage of
bills of attainder and ex post facto laws. [FN271]
As with other cases, the "right of the people" to arms is listed
in a litany of other rights which are universally acknowledged to be
individual rights, not state's rights. [FN272]
It could be argued that the Second Amendment was omitted from the
Congressional Act because the Amendment is a state's right, and there
was no point in putting a state's right item into laws governing a
territory. Indeed, the omission of the Tenth Amendment from the
Congressional 1902 Act is perfectly explicable on the grounds that the
Tenth Amendment protects federalism, but does not control a
territorial or state government's dealings with its citizens. [FN273]
And thus, when the Supreme Court listed the individual rights
which were not included in the 1902 Act, the Court did not note the
omission of the Tenth Amendment; there was no possibility that
Congress could have included the Tenth Amendment, since it would have
no application to the territorial government's actions against the
Filipino people. [FN274]
In contrast, the Court did note the omission of "the right of trial by
jury and the right of the people to bear arms." [FN275] The logical
implication, then, is that jury trial and the right to arms (unlike
the Tenth Amendment) are individual rights which Congress could have
required the Territorial Government to respect in the Philippines.
[FN276]
The 1904 United States v. Kepner case involved a similar issue.
[FN277] There, the Court described the 1902 Act in more detail. The
description of items omitted from the Act was nearly identical to the
Trono language. [FN278]

*166

F. Robertson v. Baldwin

In 1897, the Court refused to apply the Thirteenth Amendment to
merchant seamen who had jumped ship, been caught, and been impressed
back into maritime service without due process. [FN279] The Court
explained that Thirteenth Amendment's ban on involuntary servitude,
even though absolute on its face, contained various implicit
exceptions. [FN280] In support of the finding of an exception to the
Thirteenth Amendment, the Court argued that the Bill of Rights also
contained unstated exceptions:

The law is perfectly well settled that the first ten Amendments to the
constitution, commonly known as the Bill of Rights, were not intended
to lay down any novel principles of government, but simply to embody
certain guarantees and immunities which we had inherited from our
English ancestors, and which from time immemorial had been subject to
certain well-recognized exceptions arising from the necessities of the
case. In incorporating these principles into the fundamental law,
there was no intention of disregarding the exceptions, which continued
to be recognized as if they had been formally expressed. Thus, the
freedom of speech and of the press (article 1) does not permit the
publication of libels, blasphemous or indecent articles, or other
publications injurious to public morals or private reputation; the
right of the people to keep and bear arms (article 2) is not infringed
by law prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons; the provision
that no person shall be twice put in jeopardy (art. 5) does not
prevent a second trial, if upon the first trial the jury failed to
agree, or the verdict was set aside upon the defendant's motion. . . .
[FN281] Likewise, the self-incrimination clause did not bar a person
from being compelled to testify against himself if he were immune from
prosecution; and the confrontation clause did not bar the admission of
dying declarations. [FN282]

In 1897, state laws which barred individuals from carrying concealed
weapons were common, and usually upheld by state supreme courts
[FN283]; the laws did not forbid state militias from carrying
concealed weapons. The prohibitions on concealed carry are the
exceptions that prove the rule. Only if the Second Amendment is an
individual right does the Court's invocation of a concealed carry
exception make any sense.

*167

G. Brown v. Walker

When a witness before an Interstate Commerce Commission
investigation invoked the Fifth Amendment to refuse to answer
questions under oath, the majority of the Supreme Court ruled against
his invocation of the privilege against self- incrimination. [FN284]
The majority pointed out that a Congressional statute protected the
witness from any criminal prosecution growing out of the testimony.
[FN285]
Dissenting, Justice Stephen Field (perhaps the strongest civil
liberties advocate on the Court during the nineteenth century)
contended that the "infamy and disgrace" which might result from the
testimony was justification enough not to testify, even if there could
be no criminal prosecution. [FN286] Justice Field's opinion carefully
analyzed English and early American precedent, reflecting Field's
vivid appreciation of the long Anglo-American struggle for liberty
against arbitrary government. [FN287] Law and order was less important
than Constitutional law, he continued, for the claim that "the proof
of offenses like those prescribed by the interstate commerce act will
be difficult and probably impossible, ought not to have a feather's
weight against the abuses which would follow necessarily the
enforcement of incriminating testimony." [FN288] All Constitutional
rights ought to be liberally construed, for:

As said by counsel for the appellant: "The freedom of thought, of
speech, and of the press; the right to bear arms; exemption from
military dictation; security of the person and of the home; the right
to speedy and public trial by jury; protection against oppressive bail
and cruel punishment,--are, together with exemption from
self-crimination, the essential and inseparable features of English
liberty. Each one of these features had been involved in the struggle
above referred to in England within the century and a half immediately
preceding the adoption of the constitution, and the contests were
fresh in the memories and traditions of the people at that time."
[FN289]

This is just the opposite of Dennis Henigan's assertion that the
Second Amendment is written so as to be less fundamental than the
first. {FN290] Justice Field's paragraph is not a list of state
powers, it is a list of personal rights won at *168 great cost--rights
which may never be trumped by the legislature's perceived needs of the
moment.

H. Miller v. Texas

Franklin P. Miller was a white man in Dallas who fell in love with
a woman whom local newspapers would later call "a greasy negress." In
response to a rumor that Miller was carrying a handgun without a
license, a gang of Dallas police officers, after some hard drinking at
a local tavern, invaded Miller's store with guns drawn. A shoot-out
ensued, and the evidence was conflicting as to who fired first, and
whether Miller realized that the invaders were police officers. But
Miller was stone cold sober, and the police gang was not; thus, Miller
killed one of the intruders during the shoot-out, although the gang's
superior numbers resulted in Miller's capture.
During Miller's murder trial, the prosecutor asserted to the jury
that Miller had been carrying a gun illegally. Upon conviction of
murdering the police officer, Miller appealed to various courts, and
lost every time.
Appealing to the Supreme Court in 1894, Miller alleged violations of
his Second Amendment, Fourth Amendment, Fifth Amendment, and
Fourteenth Amendment rights. [FN291] Regarding the Second Amendment,
Miller claimed that it negated the Texas statute against concealed
carrying of a weapon. [FN292]
A unanimous Court rejected Miller's contentions: A "state law
forbidding the carrying of dangerous weapons on the person. . . does
not abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States." [FN293] This statement about concealed weapons laws was
consistent with what the Court would say about such laws three years
later, in the Robertson case. [FN294]
Moreover, the Second Amendment, like the rest of the Bill of Rights,
only operated directly on the federal government, and not on the
states: "the restrictions of these amendments [Second, Fourth, and
Fifth] operate only upon the Federal power." [FN295]
But did the Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second, Fourth, and Fifth
Amendments applicable to the states? Here, the Miller Court was
agnostic: "If the Fourteenth Amendment limited the power of the States
as to such rights, as pertaining to the citizens of the United States,
we think it was fatal to this claim that it was not set up in the
trial court." [FN296]
Just eight years before, in Presser the Court had said that the
Second Amendment does not apply directly to the states; Miller
reaffirmed this part of *169 Presser. Another part of Presser had
implied that the right to arms was not one of the "privileges or
immunities" of American citizenship, although the Presser Court did
not explicitly mention the Fourteenth Amendment.
In Miller v. Texas, the Court suggested that Miller might have had a
Fourteenth Amendment argument, if he had raised the issue properly at
trial. [FN297] If Presser foreclosed any possibility that Second
Amendment rights could be enforced via the Fourteenth Amendment, then
the Miller Court's statement would make no sense. Was Miller an early
hint that the Fourteenth Amendment's due process clause might protect
substantive elements of the Bill of Rights? Three years later, the
Court used the Fourteenth Amendment's due process clause for the first
time to apply part of the Bill of Rights against a state. [FN298]
A decade after Miller, Twining in 1908 did claim that Presser
stood for the Second Amendment not being a Fourteenth Amendment
privilege or immunity. But between Presser in 1886 and Twining in
1908, other readings were permissible. Not only does Miller in 1894
appear to invite such readings, but so does the 1887 case Spies v.
Illinois, which involved the murder prosecutions arising out of the
Haymarket Riot. [FN299] John Randolph Tucker represented the
defendants. Tucker, an eminent Congressman, author of an important
treatise on constitutional law, a future President of the American Bar
Association, and a leading law professor at Washington and Lee
[FN300]-- argued that the whole Bill of Rights was enforceable against
the states, including the right to arms. [FN301]
*170 Tucker argued that all "these ten Amendments" were
"privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, which the
Fourteenth Amendment forbids every State to abridge," and cited
Cruikshank in support. [FN302] As for Presser, that case "did not
decide that the right to keep and bear arms was not a privilege of a
citizen of the United States which a State might therefore abridge,
but that a State could under its police power forbid organizations of
armed men, dangerous to the public peace." [FN303]
Chief Justice Waite's majority opinion in Spies cited Cruikshank
and Presser (along with many other cases) only for the proposition
that the first ten Amendments do not apply directly to the states.
FN304] (An 1890 opinion, Eilenbecker, again cited Cruikshank and
Presser as holding that the Bill of Rights does not apply directly to
the states. [FN305]) The Spies' defendants' substantive claims
(relating to the criminal procedure and jury portions of the Bill of
Rights) were rejected as either incorrect (e.g., the jury was not
biased) or as not properly raised at trial, and thus not appropriate
for appeal. [FN306]
Tucker's reading of Presser is not the only possible one, but
Tucker--one of the most distinguished lawyers of his time--was far too
competent to make an argument in a capital case before the Supreme
Court that was contrary to Supreme Court precedent from only a year
before. It may be permissible to read Presser the same way that John
Randolph Tucker did (as upholding a particular gun control law), or as
Spies, Maxwell, and Eilenbecker did (as stating*171 that the Second
Amendment does not by its own power apply to the states), or as
Twining and Malloy v. Hogan did (as rejecting incorporation of the
Second Amendment via the Privileges and Immunities clause). We will
get to Presser soon, so that the reader can supply her own
interpretations.[FN307]
Whatever Miller v. Texas implies about the Fourteenth Amendment,
its Second Amendment lessons are easy. First, the Amendment does not
directly limit the states. Second, the Amendment protects an
individual right. Miller was a private citizen, and never claimed any
right as a member of the Texas Militia. But according to the Court,
Miller's problem was the Second Amendment was raised against the wrong
government (Texas, rather than the federal government), and at the
wrong time (on appeal, rather than at trial). If the Henigan/Bogus
state's right theory were correct, then the Court should have rejected
Miller's Second Amendment claim because Miller was an individual
rather than the government of Texas. Instead, the Court treated the
Second Amendment exactly like the Fourth and the Fifth, which were
also at issue: all three amendments protected individual rights, but
only against the federal government; while the Fourteenth Amendment
might, arguably, make these rights enforceable against the states,
Miller's failure to raise the issue at trial precluded further
inquiry.

I. Logan v. United States

This case arose out of a prosecution under the Enforcement Act, a
Congressional statute outlawing private conspiracies against the
exercise of civil rights. [FN308] The Enforcement Act was also as
issue in Cruikshank, infra. In Logan, a mob had kidnapped a group of
prisoners who were being held in the custody of federal law
enforcement. [FN309] The issue before the Court was whether the
prisoners, by action of the mob, had been deprived of any of their
federal civil rights.
Logan affirmed Cruikshank's position that the First and Second
Amendments recognize preexisting fundamental human rights, rather than
creating new rights. The First Amendment right of assembly and the
Second Amendment*172 right to arms are construed in pari materia,
suggesting that they both protect individual rights:

In U. S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, as the same term, in which also
the opinion was delivered by the chief justice, the indictment was on
section 6 of the enforcement act of 1870, (re-enacted in Rev. St.
5508, under which the present conviction was had,) and the points
adjudged on the construction of the constitution and the extent of the
powers of congress were as follows:
(1) It was held that the first amendment of the constitution, by which
it was ordained that congress should make no law abridging the right
of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for
redress of grievances, did not grant to the people the right peaceably
to assemble for lawful purposes, but recognized that right as already
existing, and did not guaranty its continuance except as against acts
of congress; and therefore the general right was not a right secured
by the constitution of the United States. But the court added: "The
right of the people peaceably to assemble for the purpose of
petitioning congress for a redress of grievances, or for anything else
connected with the powers or the duties of the national government, is
an attribute of national citizenship, and, as such, under the
protection of, and guarantied by, the United States. The very idea of
a government, republican in form, implies a right on the part of its
citizens to meet peaceably for consultation in respect to public
affairs, and to petition for a redress of grievances. If it had been
alleged in these counts that the object of the defendants was to
prevent a meeting for such a purpose, the cause would have been within
the statute, and within the scope of the sovereignty of the United
States." 92 U.S. 552, 553.
(2) It was held that the second amendment of the constitution,
declaring that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed," was equally limited in its scope. 92 U.S. 553.
(3) It was held that a conspiracy of individuals to injure, oppress,
and intimidate citizens of the United States, with intent to deprive
them of life and liberty without due process of law, did not come
within the statute, nor under the power of congress, because the
rights of life and liberty were not granted by the constitution, but
were natural and inalienable rights of man; and that the fourteenth
amendment of the constitution, declaring that no state shall deprive
any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law,
added nothing to the rights of one citizen as against another, but
simply furnished an additional guaranty against any encroachment by
the states upon the fundamental rights which belong to every citizen
as a member of society. It was of these fundamental rights of life and
liberty, not created by or dependent on the constitution, that the
court said: "Sovereignty, for this purpose, rests alone with the
states. It is no more the duty or within the power of the United
States to punish for a conspiracy to falsely imprison or murder within
a state than it would be to punish for false imprisonment or

End of part one:


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
Gunner
2003-07-14 04:22:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:42:28 GMT, Steve Krulick <***@krulick.com> wrote:

Still hanging in there, dumbfuck?

Part Three:

(Cite as: 18 St. Louis U. Pub. L. Rev. 99, *187)


[FN255]. United States v. Muscarello, 524 U.S. 125 (1998) (Ginsburg,
J., dissenting), supra text at note 57.

[FN256]. See, e.g., sources cited at supra note 6.

[FN257]. See, e.g., Glenn Harlan Reynolds, A Critical Guide to the
Second Amendment, supra note 8.

[FN258]. Stearns v. Wood, 236 U.S. 75 (1915).

[FN259]. Id. at 76. Colonel would be the next rank up.

[FN260]. Id. at 78.

[FN261]. Id.

[FN262]. Id.

[FN263]. Salina v. Blaksley, 83 P. 619 (Kan. 1905).

[FN264]. Twining v. New Jersey, 211 U.S. 78 (1908)(overruled by Malloy
v. Hogan, 378 U.S. 1 (1964).

[FN265]. Id. at 98-99.

[FN266]. Maxwell v. Dow, 176 U.S. 581 (1899).

[FN267]. Id. at 597.

[FN268]. The war led to the development of the Colt .45 self-loading
pistols, since smaller pistol rounds often had insufficient stopping
power against the Filipino warriors.

[FN269]. Trono v. United States, 199 U.S. 521 (1905).

[FN270]. Kepner v. United States, 195 U.S. 100 (1904).

[FN271]. Trono, 199 U.S. at 528.

[FN272]. Id.

[FN273]. 32 Stat. 691 (1902).

[FN274]. Trono, 199 U.S. at 528.

[FN275]. Id.

[FN276]. See id.

[FN277]. Kepner, 195 U.S. at 123-24.

[FN278]. Id. They are the familiar language of the Bill of Rights,
slightly changed in form, but not in substance, as found in the first
nine amendments to the Constitution of the United States, with the
omission of the provision preserving the right of trial by jury and
the right of the people to bear arms, and adding the prohibition of
the 13th Amendment against slavery or involuntary servitude except as
punishment for crime, and that of Article I, Section 9, to the passage
of bills of attainder and ex post facto laws.

[FN279]. Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275, 277 (1897).

[FN280]. Id. at 281.

[FN281]. Id. at 281-82.

[FN282]. Id. at 282.

[FN283]. See, e.g., State v. Workman, 35 W. Va. 367 (1891). See
generally, Kopel, The Second Amendment in the Nineteenth Century,
supra note 9; Cramer, For the Defense of Themselves and the State,
supra note 9.

[FN284]. Brown v. Walker, 161 U.S. 591 (1896).

[FN285]. The Presser case, discussed infra at notes 310-20, appears in
the Justice Brown's majority opinion, as part of a string cite for the
proposition, "the first eight amendments are limitations only upon the
powers of congress and the federal courts, and are not applicable to
the several states, except so far as the fourteenth amendment may have
made them applicable." Id. at 606.

[FN286]. Id. at 631 (Field, J., dissenting).

[FN287]. Id. at 632.

[FN288]. Id. at 635.

[FN289]. Id. (emphases added).

[FN290]. Henigan, Guns and the Constitution, supra note 4.

[FN291]. Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894).

[FN292]. Id. at 538.

[FN293]. Id. at 539.

[FN294]. Robertson, 165 U.S. at 281-82, supra text at notes 280-82.

[FN295]. Id. at 538.

[FN296]. Id.

[FN297]. Miller, 153 U.S. at 538.

[FN298]. Chicago, B. & Q. R.R. v. Chicago, 166 U.S. 226 (1897)
(takings clause).

[FN299]. Spies v. Illinois, 123 U.S. 131 (1887). See generally Paul
Avrich, The Haymarket Tragedy (1986).

[FN300]. John Randolph Tucker, The Constitution of the United States
(Fred B. Rothman & Co. 1981) (1899); William G. Bean, John Randolph
Tucker, in The Dictionary of American Biography (CD-Rom ed. 1997).

[FN301]. I hold the privilege and immunity of a citizen of the United
States to be such as have their recognition in or guaranty from the
Constitution of the United States. Take then the declared object of
the Preamble, "to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our
posterity," we ordain this Constitution--that is, we grant powers,
declare rights, and create a Union of States. See the provisions as to
personal liberty in the States guarded by provision as to ex post
facto laws, &c.; as to contract rights--against States' power to
impair them, and as to legal tender; the security for habeas corpus;
the limits imposed on Federal power in the Amendments and in the
original Constitution as to trial by jury, &c.; the Declaration of
Rights--the privilege of freedom of speech and press--of peaceable
assemblages of the people--of keeping and bearing arms--of immunity
from search and seizure--immunity from self-accusation, from second
trial--and privilege of trial by due process of law. In these last we
find the privileges and immunities secured to the citizen by the
Constitution. It may have been that the States did not secure them to
all men. It is true that they did not. Being secured by the
Constitution of the United States to all, when they were not, and were
not required to be, secured by every State, they are, as said in the
Slaughter-House Cases, privileges and immunities of citizens of the
United States.
The position I take is this: Though originally the first ten
Amendments were adopted as limitations on Federal power, yet in so far
as they secure and recognize fundamental rights--common law rights--of
the man, they make them privileges and immunities of the man as
citizen of the United States, and cannot now be abridged by a State
under the Fourteenth Amendment. In other words, while the ten
Amendments, as limitations on power, only apply to the Federal
government, and not to the States, yet in so far as they declare or
recognize rights of persons, these rights are theirs, as citizens of
the United States, and the Fourteenth Amendment as to such rights
limits state power, as the ten Amendments had limited Federal power.

[FN302]. Id.

[FN303]. Id.

[FN304]. Spies, 123 U.S. at 166.

[FN305]. Eilenbecker v. District Court of Plymouth County, 134 U.S.
131 (1890):
The first three of these assignments of error, as we have stated them,
being the first and second and fourth of the assignments as numbered
in the brief of the plaintiffs in error, are disposed of at once by
the principle often decided by this court, that the first eight
articles of the amendments to the Constitution have reference to
powers exercised by the government of the United States and not to
those of the States. Livingston v. Moore, 7 Pet. 469; The Justices v.
Murray, 9 Wall. 274; Edwards v. Elliott, 21 Wall. 532; United States
v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542; Walker v. Sauvinet, 92 U.S. 90; Fox v.
Ohio, 5 How. 410; Holmes v. Jennison, 14 Pet. 540; Presser v.
Illinois, 116 U.S. 252.

[FN306]. Spies, 123 U.S. at 168.

[FN307]. During the nineteenth century, the official Supreme Court
reports included summaries of counsels' arguments. Besides Tucker's
argument in Spies, there are two other nineteenth century cases which
record use by counsel of the Second Amendment; both uses were by the
Attorney General's office, and both regarded the Second Amendment as
an individual right. In the argument for In re Rapier, Assistant
Attorney General Maury defended a federal ban on the mailing of
lottery tickets: "Freedom of the press, like freedom of speech, and
'the right to keep and bear arms,' admits of and requires regulation,
which is the law of liberty that prevents these rights from running
into license." In re Rapier, 143 U.S. 110, 131 (1892). The other
argument came from the Attorney General in Ex Parte Milligan. Ex Parte
Milligan, 71 U.S. (4 Wall.) 2 (1866); supra note 217.

[FN308]. Logan v. United States, 144 U.S. 263, 281-82 (1892).

[FN309]. Id. at 285-86.

[FN310]. Id. at 286-88.

[FN311]. See Levinson, supra note 9; Stephen Halbrook, The Right of
Workers to Assemble and to Bear Arms: Presser v. Illinois, Last
Holdout Against Application of the Bill of Rights to the States, 76 U.
Det. Mercy L. Rev. (1999, forthcoming).

[FN312]. Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 265 (1886).

[FN313]. 1 William Hawkins, A Treatise of the Pleas of the Crown 126
(Garland Publ. 1978) (1716) (A Justice of the Peace may require surety
from persons who "go about with unusual Weapons or Attendants, to the
Terror of the People.")

[FN314]. Presser, 116 U.S. at 265.

[FN315]. Id. at 266.

[FN316]. Id.

[FN317]. U.S. Const., amend. XIV, § 1.

[FN318]. E.g., Fresno Rifle Club v. Van de Kamp, 965 F.2d 723 (9th
Cir. 1992).

[FN319]. Id. at 265.

[FN320]. Id. at 265-66.

[FN321]. Id. For the subsequent interpretation of Presser, see Malloy
v. Hogan, supra note 184 (Second Amendment is not a Fourteenth
Amendment Privilege or Immunity); Poe v. Ullman, supra note 204
(Harlan, J., dissenting) (Fourteenth Amendment liberty is not
co-extensive with Bill of Rights); Adamson v. California, supra note
222 (Black, J., dissenting) (Second Amendment not directly applicable
against states); Twining v. New Jersey, supra note 264 (Second
Amendment not a Fourteenth Amendment Privilege or Immunity); Maxwell
v. Dow, supra note 266 (Second Amendment not directly applicable to
states); Brown v. Walker, supra note 284 (same); Miller v. Texas,
supra notes 291-96 (Second Amendment not directly applicable, not a
Privilege or Immunity) but enforcement against states via Fourteenth
Amendment is an open question; Spies v. Illinois, supra note 303
(Second Amendment not directly applicable against states);
Eilenbecker, supra note 304 (same).

[FN322]. 16 Stat. 140 § 6 (1870); 18 U.S.C. §§ 241, 242: "That if two
or more persons shall band or conspire together, or go in disguise
upon the public highway, or upon the premises of another...or
intimidate any citizen with intent to prevent or hinder his free
exercise and enjoyment of any right or privilege secured or granted
him by the Constitution or laws of the United States...."

[FN323]. Stephen Halbrook, Freedmen, Firearms, and the Fourteenth
Amendment (1998); Eric Foner, Reconstruction 258-59 (1988); Richard L.
Aynes, On Misreading John Bingham and the Fourteenth Amendment, 103
Yale L.J. 57 (1993).

[FN324]. George C. Rable, But There Was No Peace: The Role of Violence
in the Politics of Reconstruction 125-29 (Athens Univ. of Georgia Pr.,
1984).

[FN325]. United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 551 (1875)
(emphasis added).

[FN326]. Id. at 553 quoting New York v. Miln, 36 U.S. (11 Pet.) 125,
139 (1837). Cf. Bliss v. Commonwealth, 12 Ky. (2 Litt.) 90, 92, 13 Am.
Dec. 251, 253 ("The right [to arms in the Kentucky Constitution]
existed at the adoption of the constitution; it had no limits short of
the moral power of the citizens to exercise it, and it in fact
consisted in nothing else but the liberty of the citizens to bear
arms.").

[FN327]. "The Second Amendment protects only the right of the states
to maintain and equip a militia and does not guarantee individuals the
right to bear arms; United States v. Cruikshank (1875)." C. Herman
Pritchett, The American Constitution 397 n. 1 (2d ed. McGraw-Hill,
1968).

[FN328]. Malloy v. Hogan, supra note 186; Knapp v. Schweitzer, supra
note 208. For different interpretations of Cruiksbank, see Spies v.
Illinois, supra note 303 (Second Amendment not directly applicable to
states); Eilenbecker, supra note 304 (same); Logon v. United States,
supra note 309 (First Amendment assembly right and Second Amendment
arms right are similar; Bill of Rights protects neither against
private interference).

[FN329]. DeJonge v. Oregon, 299 U.S. 353 (1937).

[FN330]. Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393 (1856). Among Chief
Justice Taney's proofs that free blacks were not citizens was the fact
that blacks were often excluded from militia service. The Taney
opinion explained that the parties to the original American social
compact were only those "who, at that time [American independence],
were recognized as the people or citizens of a State, whose rights and
liberties had been outraged by the English Government; and who
declared their independence, and assumed the powers of Government to
defend their rights by force of arms." Id. at 407. The new nation's
federal militia law of 1792 had enrolled only free white males in the
militia of the United States, and blacks had been excluded from the
New Hampshire militia. Id. at 420. These facts suggested to Chief
Justice Taney that free blacks were not recognized as citizens, since
they were not in the militia.
Justice Curtis retorted by pointing to the language of the 1792
Militia Act, which enrolled "every free, able-bodied, white male
citizen." Justice Curtis pointed out the implication of the language
that "citizens" included people who were not able-bodied, were not
male, or were not white; otherwise, there would have been no need to
limit militia membership of able-bodied white males. Id. at 442
(Curtis, J., dissenting). But Justice Curtis's argument had one
problem: the use of the word "free" in the Militia Act. It was
undisputed that slaves were not citizens, since they were deprived of
all rights of citizenship. The Militia Act enrolled only "free,
able-bodied, white male citizens." If we follow Justice Curtis's logic
to conclude that the Militia Act proves that non-whites could be
citizens, then the same logic would show that unfree persons could be
citizens.
The stronger part of the Curtis dissent was his evidence showing that
many of the thirteen original states did recognize blacks as citizens.
The Taney majority never directly addressed this part of the Curtis
argument, except by listing various disabilities (such as prohibitions
on racial intermarriage, or bans on operating schools for blacks)
which even anti-slavery states like Massachusetts and Connecticut
imposed on free blacks. Thus, in a bizarre way, the Taney majority
(despite its pro-slavery taint) pre-figures twentieth century Supreme
Court jurisprudence that there can be no second-class citizens in the
United States. The Curtis opinion argues that various civil
disabilities (including exclusion from the militia) are consistent
with citizenship. For the Taney majority, citizenship is all or
nothing; exclusion from education, from intermarriage with whites, or
from the militia are all incompatible with citizenship. Thus, once a
constitutional amendment conclusively declared that blacks are
citizens, the logic of the Dred Scott majority leads to the results in
Brown v. Board, 349 U.S. 294 (1955) (racial discrimination in
schooling is incompatible with citizenship rights); Loving v.
Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967) (laws against intermarriage are
incompatible with citizenship rights); and Bell v. Maryland, 378 U.S.
226, 260 (1964) (segregation in restaurants and lunch counters "is a
badge of second-class citizenship."); Id at 288 (Douglas, J.,
concurring) ("The Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments do
not permit Negroes to be considered as second-class citizens in any
aspect of our public life."). In contrast, the Curtis dissent (while
laudably humane in its anti-slavery sentiments) allows for
second-class citizenship on the basis of race.

[FN331]. Id. at 417.

[FN332]. Id.

[FN333]. See, e.g., Edwards v. California, 314 U.S. 160, 168 (1941)
(Douglas, J., concurring); Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. (16 Wall.)
36, 79 (1873).

[FN334]. Scott, 60 U.S. at 417.

[FN335]. Act of Mar. 6, 1820, ch. 22, 8, 3 Stat. 545, 548.

[FN336]. Scott, 60 U.S. at 450.

[FN337]. Id. at 450-51.

[FN338]. Id. at 399.

[FN339]. See, e.g., Stephen Douglas, The Dividing Line Between Federal
and Local Authority: Popular Sovereignty in the Territories, Harper's
(Sept. 1859) 519, 530.

[FN340]. U.S. Const., amend. XIV, § 1 ("All persons born or
naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction
thereof, are citizens of the Untied States and of the State wherein
they reside.")

[FN341]. Dorr v. United States, 195 U.S. 138 (1904); Hawaii v.
Mankichi, 190 U.S. 197 (1903) (Sixth Amendment requirement for
unanimous jury not applicable in territory of Hawaii; only
"fundamental" constitutional rights apply in the territories); De Lima
v. Bidwell 182 U.S. 1 (1901) (Puerto Rican goods imported to the
states are not subject to the tariff applicable to foreign imports);
Dooley v. United States, 182 U.S. 222 (1901) (goods transported from
the states to Puerto Rico not subject to tariff applicable to foreign
imports to Puerto Rico); Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244 (1901) (In
taxing imports from Puerto Rico to the states, Congress need not obey
the constitutional requirement that taxes imposed by Congress be
uniform throughout the United States).

[FN342]. Downes, 182 U.S. at 379 (Harlan, J., dissenting).

[FN343]. Richard Warren Barkley, letter of May 28, 1901, to John
Marshall Harlan, quoted in Tinsley E. Yarborough, Judicial Enigma: The
First Justice Harlan 197 (1995)

[FN344]. Houston v. Moore, 18 U.S. (5 Wheat.) 1 (1820).

[FN345]. "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws
of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions." "To provide
for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for
governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the
United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment
of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according
to the discipline prescribed by Congress."

[FN346]. Houston, 18 U.S. at 6.

[FN347]. U.S. Const. amend. X.

[FN348]. Houston, 18 U.S.at 46-47.

[FN349]. Id.

[FN350]. Id.

[FN351]. This was the only time that Justice Story dissented from a
constitutional decision in which Chief Justice Marshall was in the
majority. James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution
311 n. 161 (2d ed. 1990).

[FN352]. Houston, 18 U.S. at 46-47.

[FN353]. Id. at 47-48 (Story, J., dissenting)..

[FN354]. The Supreme Court decided one other militia case during this
period. Writing for a unanimous Court, Justice Story held that the
President's determination of the need for a militia call-out was not
subject to judicial review. See Martin v. Mott, 25 U.S. (12 Wheat.) 19
(1827).

[FN355]. Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of
the United States 264-65 (1842) For more on Justice Story's thoughts
about the Second Amendment, see Kopel, The Second Amendment in the
Nineteenth Century, supra note 4, at 119-20.

[FN356]. See, e.g., Henigan, Arms, Anarchy, supra note 5.

[FN357]. See Kopel, The Second Amendment in the Nineteenth Century,
supra note 7, at 1388-97.

[FN358]. United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), supra notes
16-27.

[FN359]. Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 150-51 (1972) (Douglas, J.,
dissenting), supra note 141.

[FN360]. Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65-66 (1980), supra note
103.

[FN361]. Hamilton v. Regents of the Univ. of California, 293 U.S. 245,
260-61 (1934), supra note 238.

[FN362]. United States v. Schwimmer, 279 U.S. 644, 650-52 (1929),
supra note 253.

[FN363]. Burton v. Sills, 394 U.S. 812 (1969), supra note 170.

[FN364]. Laird v. Tatum, 408 U.S. 1, 22-23 (1972), supra note 163.

[FN365]. Spencer v. Kemna, 523 U.S. 1, 36 (1998) (Stevens, J.,
dissenting), supra note 42.

[FN366]. Moore v. East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 502 (1976), supra note
120.

[FN367]. Houston v. Moore, 18 U.S. (5 Wheat.) 1, 47-48 (1820) (Story,
J., dissenting), supra note 352.

[FN368]. See Story, supra note 354.

[FN369]. Printz v. United States, 521 U.S. 898, 938-39 (1997) (Thomas,
J., concurring), supra note 64.

[FN370]. Justice Black did view the entire Bill of Rights as absolute
within it terms. He explicitly so stated with regard to the Second
Amendment in his James Madison lecture at New York University. It
might be reasonable to read Justice Black's Supreme Court opinions
which mention the Second Amendment as reflecting his absolutist view.
See supra text at notes 179-82, 194-96, 221- 34.

[FN371]. Supra note 3.
END OF DOCUMENT


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
strabo
2003-07-14 16:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hughes
Post by Leif Rakur
Leif speaking: It appears that nobody here has yet been able to come
up with the source of the myth that states can't have rights. I
notice that Stephen Halbrook made the assertion a couple of years ago
"Only individuals have 'rights,' and only governmental units have
'powers.'" But I imagine this malarkey has been a gun-promoter
off-the-shelf item for a lot longer than that.
I suspect that the "myth" comes from reading the US Constitution.
Blatant assertion.
Post by David Hughes
No, it doesn't say that states can't have rights.
So you want us to prove a negative by omission?
Clearly "God" doesn't exist, as he is conspicuously absent from
the body of the Constitution!
The Constitution comprises the obligations and duties of the
central government. The Declaration cites the authority.

<snipped>
David J. Hughes
2003-07-14 17:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Krulick:
You indirectly inquired about the source of the "states can't have
rights" argument.
I posited a possible source, with supporting evidence.
Note, please, I was neither supporting nor denying the argument,
merely offering a possible source.

Not all posts are attacks on your position. Please read more
carefully, after turning off your emotions.
Post by David Hughes
Post by Leif Rakur
Leif speaking: It appears that nobody here has yet been able to come
up with the source of the myth that states can't have rights. I
notice that Stephen Halbrook made the assertion a couple of years ago
"Only individuals have 'rights,' and only governmental units have
'powers.'" But I imagine this malarkey has been a gun-promoter
off-the-shelf item for a lot longer than that.
I suspect that the "myth" comes from reading the US Constitution.
Blatant assertion.
Absolutely correct. That is, after all, what the word "I suspect" mean.
Post by David Hughes
No, it doesn't say that states can't have rights.
So you want us to prove a negative by omission?
* I * , in this subthread, am not trying to prove or asking you to
prove anything. I am merely tossing out a possibility.
Clearly "God" doesn't exist, as he is conspicuously absent from
the body of the Constitution!
Strawman argument.
Which is why, to quote Rummy, "The absence of evidence isn't the
evidence of absence."
The words *I* cited were contemporaneous with the Const, by the
selfsame persons involved. They repeatedly spoke of rights of
states, nations, and legislatures, and wrote those into their
laws and statutes. I have POSITIVE evidence that this was so;
where is someone, THEN, saying "States don't have rights!"?
Great, neat, wonderful. Very possibly useful in refuting the "states
don't have rights" argument, has no bearing on my speculation as the
source of the argument.
Post by David Hughes
It's wording is such that "right(s)" are enumerated, reserved for or
associated with "authors or inventors", "the people", "the press",
"the owner", "person(s)", "the accused", "inhabitant", or "citizens".
"Powers" are delegated to the United States, or reserved to the
States, or the people.
So those are rights that ARE mentioned. Where is it written
ANYWHERE in or outside the Const that states DON'T have rights?
It isn't in the Constitution, as I have already stated. Since my
proposal is based solely on the Constitution as written, outside
writing have no bearing.
Post by David Hughes
At no point does the USC delegate, reserve or enumerate a "right" to
the states or the United States.
At no point does it say they don't have any!
As I have already stated.

Yet, clearly, they
understood the concept, as they were using it all the time
before, during, and AFTER that period! As I cited!
I repeat this and ask you to explain away Jefferson's obvious
Not part of the Constitutiion, no bearing on my proposed source.
Jefferson's seventh letter regarding his contribution to the BoR
process was written to Dr. Joseph Priestley, June 19, 1802,
looking back at his role. It, like the other six letters, which
were contemporary appeals for a Bill of Rights (written
12/20/87, 2/7/88, 2/12/88, 7/31/88, 3/13/89, and 3/18/89), can
"One passage, in the paper you enclosed me, must be corrected.
It is the following, "and all say it was yourself more than
any other individual, that planned and established it" i. e.,
the Constitution. I was in Europe when the Constitution was
planned, and never saw it till after it was established. On
receiving it I wrote strongly to Mr. Madison, urging the want of
provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press,
trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a
standing army, and an express reservation to the States of all
rights not specifically granted to the Union. He accordingly
moved in the first session of Congress for these amendments,
which were agreed to and ratified by the States as they now
stand. This is all the hand I had in what related to the
Constitution."
I would be more interested in the actual wording of Jefferson's letter
to Mr. Madison. The site listed above gives a "This collection is
under construction." response.
What TJ write at the time to JM, rather than his decade old
recollection of what he wrote.
"I have a right to nothing, which another has a right to take
away; and Congress will have a right to take away trials by jury
in all civil cases." Again Congress, which is a "collective"
govt entity, and NOT an individual, has a RIGHT! Is this not
identical to POWER?!!
But Congress is not a state, so this has not bearing on my supposition.
Look, here's the definition, the FIRST definition, of POWER from
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_p.htm
POWER. This is either inherent or derivative. The former is the
RIGHT [emph added], ability, or faculty of doing something,
without receiving that RIGHT, ability, or faculty from another.
The people have the power to establish a form of government, or
to change one already established. A father has the legal power
to chastise his son; a master, his apprentice.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_r.htm
7. Political rights consist in the POWER [emph added] to
participate, directly or indirectly, in the establishment or
management of government. These political rights are fixed by
the constitution. Every citizen has the right of voting for
public officers, and of being elected; these are the political
rights which the humblest citizen possesses.
Thus, the very sourcebook of the way THEY used words has them
used interchangeably, AS I claimed!
Not part of the Consititution, therefore has no bearing on my supposition.
Again, very possibly useful in refuting the "states don't have rights"
argument, has no bearing on my speculation as the source of the argument.
Post by David Hughes
The specific phrase "right of choice", used in the 12th Amendment
(1804), and again in the 20th (1933), refers to the specific, limited
duties of Congress in the elections of Presidents and Vice Presidents
in the case of the electors failing to produce a clear winner.
This is a duty or responsibility delegated to the Legislative Branch
of the United States, and one of the most amended portions of the
Constitution. My feeling is this is a "power" of the Legislature.
Your feeling vs. what Jefferson said, and all the other cites I
posted! Hmmmm.
Mixed.

Your scholarship is admirable, your occasionally strident and abuse
replies less so.
Post by David Hughes
David Hughes
Morton Davis
2003-07-14 17:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David J. Hughes
You indirectly inquired about the source of the "states can't have
rights" argument.
I posited a possible source, with supporting evidence.
Note, please, I was neither supporting nor denying the argument,
merely offering a possible source.
Not all posts are attacks on your position. Please read more
carefully, after turning off your emotions.
Emotions are all Krulick has.

-*MORT*-
David J. Hughes
2003-07-14 18:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morton Davis
Post by David J. Hughes
You indirectly inquired about the source of the "states can't have
rights" argument.
I posited a possible source, with supporting evidence.
Note, please, I was neither supporting nor denying the argument,
merely offering a possible source.
Not all posts are attacks on your position. Please read more
carefully, after turning off your emotions.
Emotions are all Krulick has.
-*MORT*-
Not true. He's highly literate, occasionally shows courtesy and good
manners, and has at least a basic grasp of logic and debate.
He presents a good, if massively verbose, somewhat limited and
legalistic case.
He's caused me to go digging into some areas I haven't been in years,
and consider why I hold certain positions.
Now, if he would just TRIM his posts a bit more...... :-)

David Hughes
Scout
2003-07-14 18:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David J. Hughes
Post by Morton Davis
Post by David J. Hughes
You indirectly inquired about the source of the "states can't have
rights" argument.
I posited a possible source, with supporting evidence.
Note, please, I was neither supporting nor denying the argument,
merely offering a possible source.
Not all posts are attacks on your position. Please read more
carefully, after turning off your emotions.
Emotions are all Krulick has.
-*MORT*-
Not true. He's highly literate, occasionally shows courtesy and good
manners, and has at least a basic grasp of logic and debate.
He presents a good, if massively verbose, somewhat limited and
legalistic case.
He's caused me to go digging into some areas I haven't been in years,
and consider why I hold certain positions.
Now, if he would just TRIM his posts a bit more...... :-)
Like about 90% of his verbosity, we could get someplace.

David J. Hughes
2003-07-14 17:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hughes
Post by Leif Rakur
Leif speaking: It appears that nobody here has yet been able to come
up with the source of the myth that states can't have rights. I
notice that Stephen Halbrook made the assertion a couple of years ago
"Only individuals have 'rights,' and only governmental units have
'powers.'" But I imagine this malarkey has been a gun-promoter
off-the-shelf item for a lot longer than that.
I suspect that the "myth" comes from reading the US Constitution.
No, it doesn't say that states can't have rights.
It's wording is such that "right(s)" are enumerated, reserved for or
associated with "authors or inventors", "the people", "the press",
"the owner", "person(s)", "the accused", "inhabitant", or "citizens".
"Powers" are delegated to the United States, or reserved to the
States, or the people.
At no point does the USC delegate, reserve or enumerate a "right" to
the states or the United States.
The specific phrase "right of choice", used in the 12th Amendment
(1804), and again in the 20th (1933), refers to the specific, limited
duties of Congress in the elections of Presidents and Vice Presidents
in the case of the electors failing to produce a clear winner.
This is a duty or responsibility delegated to the Legislative Branch
of the United States, and one of the most amended portions of the
Constitution. My feeling is this is a "power" of the Legislature.
David Hughes
Leif speaking: I wouldn't disagree that rights are associated with
"the people." But "the people" refers to the body of enfranchised
citizens of a state. Or, as I quoted Justice James Wilson in my
previous post, "In a free state, the people form an artificial person,
or body politic, the highest and noblest, that can be known." That's
the "collective" idea. - Leif
But the terms "the people" and "the state" are not synonymous. While
this "body politic" is limited to "the people", "the people" are not
limited to the "body politic" or "the State".

David Hughes
Steve Krulick
2003-07-14 00:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leif Rakur
Leif speaking: It appears that nobody here has yet been able to come
up with the source of the myth that states can't have rights. I
notice that Stephen Halbrook made the assertion a couple of years ago
"Only individuals have 'rights,' and only governmental units have
'powers.'" But I imagine this malarkey has been a gun-promoter
off-the-shelf item for a lot longer than that.
Judge Story discusses the relationship between "the people" and "the
state" (equivalent expressions) and quotes Justice Wilson with respect
to the rights of states (a state being a "moral person"). This
carries weight, since the Justice Wilson is James Wilson, signer of
the Declaration of Independence, a part of the first Supreme Court
appointed by Washington, a professor of law at the University of
Pennsylvania, and above all, a delegate to the Constitutional
Convention where he served on the "Committee on Detail," which was
charged with putting the Conbstitution into its final form. Here's
"§ 208. In like manner the word "state" is used in various senses. In
its most enlarged sense it means the people composing a particular
nation or community. In this sense the state means the whole people,
united into one body politic; and the state, and the people of the
state, are equivalent expressions.2 Mr. Justice Wilson, in his Law
Lectures, uses the word "state" in its broadest sense. "In free
states," says he, "the people form an artificial person, or body
politic, the highest end [and] noblest, that can be known. They form
that moral person, which in one of my former lectures,3 I described,
as a complete body of free, natural persons, united together for their
common benefit; as having an understanding and a will; as
deliberating, and resolving, and acting; as possessed of interests,
which it ought to manage; as enjoying rights, which it ought to
maintain; and as lying under obligations, which it ought to perform.
To this moral person, we assign, by way of eminence, the dignified
appellation of STATE." - Joseph Story, "Commentaries on the
Constitution of the United States," 1833.
-Leif
Again thank you for this!

It is now clear where the source of the Bouvier definition of
STATE came from!

So those who've said "And who's Bouvier that we should care?"
NOW have to accept the SAME GUY who they always cite about the
right to bear arms as "the palladium of liberties" as
undermining their WHOLE premise of WHO or WHAT THE PEOPLE IS!

I guess my 1000-line posts now have to be 1020-lines!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Gunner
2003-07-12 04:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....


Lets see you do an analysis of this:

Amendment I

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Amendment IV

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

and finally:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
Ken Maltby
2003-07-13 08:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies. If "the people" refers to "the states" or
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms? If they cannot have them as individual
personal property, only as collective property of
"The People" where were they kept?

It seems to me that Mr. Krulick must believe that
there were "People's Armories" and perhaps wishes
for a "Peoples Army".

While many comunities did maintain an armory for
their collective protection (from indians, French, ect...)
they all required that, those who could, supply their own
personnal arms. According to one of my family records
part of the reason for local armories was to insure that
there would be suficent shot and powder on hand in
case of an threat to the whole comunity.

Just how does a collective People have any property
that is not property of the state? While this is not likely
to be a problem for Mr. Krulick, it seems out of place
in a document setting out what may not be infringed by
the goverment.

LoL,
Ken
Morton Davis
2003-07-13 13:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies. If "the people" refers to "the states" or
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms? If they cannot have them as individual
personal property, only as collective property of
"The People" where were they kept?
It seems to me that Mr. Krulick must believe that
there were "People's Armories" and perhaps wishes
for a "Peoples Army".
While many comunities did maintain an armory for
their collective protection (from indians, French, ect...)
they all required that, those who could, supply their own
personnal arms. According to one of my family records
part of the reason for local armories was to insure that
there would be suficent shot and powder on hand in
case of an threat to the whole comunity.
Just how does a collective People have any property
that is not property of the state? While this is not likely
to be a problem for Mr. Krulick, it seems out of place
in a document setting out what may not be infringed by
the goverment.
LoL,
Ken
Correct. It would mean these guns http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php would
be iisued by the government and belong to the collective. They do not, which
is the most damning evidence of Krulick's, Harrison's, Ernst's idiocy.

-*MORT*-
Scout
2003-07-13 14:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies. If "the people" refers to "the states" or
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms? If they cannot have them as individual
personal property, only as collective property of
"The People" where were they kept?
Further if those arms are the common property of the people......why can't I
go down to Fort Knox hop in a tank and take it through a spin in the
training course?

After all....I have just as much right to use it as anyone else if it's
common property, right?
Steve Krulick
2003-07-13 22:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
For what? Unless you are posting in
alt.politics.usa.constitution, I don't see it!
What kind of analysis?

Oh, I assume you mean how the term THE PEOPLE is used. Sheesh,
I've posted that a hundred times at least!
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies.
There are NONE, but YOU can't get around your strawslinging and
refusing to read what I DID say!

If "the people" refers to "the states" or
Post by Ken Maltby
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick
Which merely shows how much evidence supports my position!
Post by Ken Maltby
explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms?
Yes, you may have just missed them:

ALL the debates about the 2nd Amen involved the militia:
universal militia vs. select militia, state vs. fed control of
the militia, who - state or feds - was going to provide arms. I
challenge you to produce ANY 2nd Amen debate material that
discusses private ownership of weapons. As the term "keep and
bear arms" MEANS militia preservation (keep arms) and service
(bear arms), "owning and using guns" is NOT what Madison was
protecting. As Miller said:

"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render
possible the effectiveness of such forces [the well regulated
Militia armed, organized, and disciplined by the Congress, as
stated in the previous paragraph] the declaration and guarantee
of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and
applied with that end in view..."

You have a limited sense of the militia's operation. ARMS does
not refer merely to the personal weapons that a single
militiaman might bring when called up. "Keeping" is a militia
function, and it includes BOTH the communal storage and "keeping
up" of "arms" (which is the ENTIRE "equipage" of warfare: cannon
and balls, powder, tents, flags, wagons, siege apparatus,
engineering equipment, regimentals, accouterments, etc.) AND the
personal "keeping" of those REGISTERED militia weapons (see
Militia Act of 1792) specified by law.

This is from historian Garry Wills:

To keep. Gun advocates read "to keep and bear" disjunctively,
and think the verbs refer to entirely separate activities.
"Keep," for them, means "possess personally at home"— a lot to
load into one word. To support this entirely fanciful
construction, they have to neglect the vast literature on
militias. It is precisely in that literature that
to-keep-and-bear is a description of one connected process. To
understand what "keep" means in a military context, we must
recognize how the description of a local militia's function was
always read in contrast to the role of a standing army. Armies,
in the ideology of the time, should not be allowed to keep their
equipment in readiness...

The idea of militia "stands" in common depots or arsenals was
not confined to England. In America, the Articles of
Confederation required that "every state shall always keep up a
well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and
accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use,
in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a
proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."
(equipage being etymological sense of arma). Thus it is as
erroneous to suppose that "keep" means, of itself, "keep at
home" as to think that "arms" means only guns. Patrick Henry
tells us, the militia's arms include "regimentals, etc." flags,
ensigns, engineering tools, siege apparatus, and other
"accouterments of war."

Some arms could be kept at home, of course. Some officers kept
their most valuable piece of war equipment, a good cross-country
horse, at home, where its upkeep was a daily matter feeding and
physical regimen.

But military guns were not ideally kept home. When militias were
armed, it was, so far as possible, with guns of standard issue,
interchangeable parts, uniform in their shot, upkeep and
performance — the kind of "firelocks" Trenchard wanted kept "in
every parish" (not every home). The contrast with armies was not
to be in performance (Trenchard and others boasted of the high
degree of efficient organization in militias). The contrast was
in continuity. The militia was always at the ready, its arms
"kept." Armies came and went — their "continuation" was what
Trenchard attacked...

To keep-and-bear arms was the distinguishing note of the
militia's permanent readiness, as opposed to the army's duty of
taking up and laying down ("deponing" is Trenchard's word) their
arms in specific wars. The militia was maintained on a
continuing basis, its arsenal kept up, its readiness expressed
in the complex process specified by "keep-and-bear." To separate
one term from this context and treat it as specifying a
different right (of home possession) is to impart into the
language something foreign to each term in itself, to the
conjunction of terms, and to the entire context of Madison's
sentence.


"It is possible, and likely, that the "keep arms" component was
also understood in early America in an exclusively military
context. This is especially likely since virtually every militia
act used the word "keep" or a close synonym to describe the
requirement to own or have custody of a weapon and maintain it
for military use. And there is no doubt that Americans like John
Adams, the author of the Massachusetts bill of rights of 1780
which was the first to use "keep arms" as part of a
constitutional guarantee, saw the English common law
implications of the phrase. However, like "bear arms," "keep
arms" was American terminology, as opposed to the English "have
arms" expression. Therefore, it is time to relook at the Second
Amendment and reconstruct this badly deconstructed article of
the Bill of Rights in a military context." (J.K.Rowland)

The "People" with the Jus Militiae right to "keep and bear
arms," which means both to maintain the upkeep of ("keep") and
to serve IN the militia, if qualified, drawn from the body of
THE PEOPLE ("bear"), were only those of the FREEMAN CLASS;
furthermore, Congress could not infringe on that right by making
it moot by FAILING to fulfill their constitutional duty to ARM,
ORGANIZE, and DISCIPLINE the Militia, which is what Mason and
the anti-feds were concerned about, and WHY the 2nd Amen was
written and passed.

Those individuals who qualified for "bearing arms" (serving)
within a well regulated militia could not be deprived of owning
and storing at home THOSE weapons in service to the militia,
such weapons being inspected and "enrolled" (registered) each
year during the call up for drilling and taking a "return of
militia" to maintain a record of the inventory of men and
weapons the state had at its disposal (Militia Act of 1792).
Post by Ken Maltby
If they cannot have them as individual
personal property,
Nobody said they couldn't! Read the above para.
Post by Ken Maltby
only as collective property of
"The People" where were they kept?
False premise. As shown above, SOME weapons were provided by
each militiaman, indeed was a requirement that he provide a
musket and supplies at his own expense, and REGISTER them at
muster each year. Many, if not most "arms" which included, as
shown above, far more than just individual muskets, were best
stored in secure armories and central "stores" or "stands" just
as the AoC required, to be used only as needed. It was the duty
of the STATE to maintain the "upkeep" of these permanently ready
arms, hence the term, KEEP ARMS!

If they merely meant "own guns" they could have said so, eh?
Post by Ken Maltby
It seems to me that Mr. Krulick must believe that
there were "People's Armories"
Well, yes, there were! Are you so ignorant of history? Again,
from the above cite:

The idea of militia "stands" in common depots or arsenals was
not confined to England. In America, the Articles of
Confederation required that "every state shall always keep up a
well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and
accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use,
in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a
proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."
(equipage being etymological sense of arma). Thus it is as
erroneous to suppose that "keep" means, of itself, "keep at
home" as to think that "arms" means only guns. Patrick Henry
tells us, the militia's arms include "regimentals, etc." flags,
ensigns, engineering tools, siege apparatus, and other
"accouterments of war."

Do you feel better educated now?
Post by Ken Maltby
and perhaps wishes
for a "Peoples Army".
The militia WAS a "People's Army" of part-time citizen-soldiers!
THAT was why Jefferson, Mason, and Madison FOUGHT for keeping IT
rather than a standing army of professional full-time soldiers!

I'm sorry, but what grade in elementary school did you say you
were in?
Post by Ken Maltby
While many comunities did maintain an armory for
their collective protection (from indians, French, ect...)
they all required that, those who could, supply their own
personnal arms. According to one of my family records
part of the reason for local armories was to insure that
there would be suficent shot and powder on hand in
case of an threat to the whole comunity.
As I said, it was a combination of both: private weapons and
public weapons, BOTH registered and inventoried so the community
knew where they stood in terms of defense capabilities.
Post by Ken Maltby
Just how does a collective People have any property
that is not property of the state?
False premise. The militias were ALWAYS the military arm of the
state, hence the state was ALWAYS responsible for arming and
organizing and controlling the militias! ANY other arrangement
was anarchy. Here's what John Adams had to say on this:

"[T]he militia then must all obey the sovereign majority, or
divide, and part follow the majority, and part the minority.
This last case is civil war; but until it comes to this, the
whole militia may be employed by the majority in any degree of
tyranny and oppression over the minority.

The constitution furnishes no resource or remedy; nothing
affords a chance of relief but rebellion and civil war: if this
terminates in favor of the minority, they will terrorize in
their turns, exasperated by revenge, in addition to ambition and
avarice; if the majority prevail, their domination becomes more
cruel, and soon ends in one despot. It must be made a sacred
maxim, that the militia obey the executive power, which
represents the whole people in the execution of laws.

To suppose arms in the hands of the citizens, to be used at
individual discretion, except in private self defense, or by
partial orders of towns, counties, or districts of a state, is
to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so
that liberty can be enjoyed by no man — is a dissolution of the
government.

The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created,
directed, and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of
the laws."

John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the
United States of America, p. 474-5 (1787-88)

Besides, THE PEOPLE IS EQUIVALENT TO THE STATE!:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

(That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!)

BODY POLITIC:
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.

CITIZEN:
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.

3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Ken Maltby
While this is not likely
to be a problem for Mr. Krulick,
It's not a problem for anyone who knows what the terms mean!
Post by Ken Maltby
it seems out of place
in a document setting out what may not be infringed by
the goverment.
It's not relevant. See Article I, Section 8: CONGRESS MUST
provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining the militia!
THAT was why the 2nd Amen was written, to insure the Congress
not FAIL to arm the militia, thereby weakening it to
destruction, and replacing it with a standing army!

You'll learn about this when you get to fifth grade.
Post by Ken Maltby
LoL,
Ken
Yes, the ignorant are often found laughing at the wise!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Two Bears
2003-07-14 03:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
For what? Unless you are posting in
alt.politics.usa.constitution, I don't see it!
What kind of analysis?
Oh, I assume you mean how the term THE PEOPLE is used. Sheesh,
I've posted that a hundred times at least!
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies.
There are NONE, but YOU can't get around your strawslinging and
refusing to read what I DID say!
If "the people" refers to "the states" or
Post by Ken Maltby
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick
Which merely shows how much evidence supports my position!
Post by Ken Maltby
explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms?
universal militia vs. select militia, state vs. fed control of
the militia, who - state or feds - was going to provide arms. I
challenge you to produce ANY 2nd Amen debate material that
discusses private ownership of weapons.
There was no debate on that topic (individual right to keep and bear
arms) because they all knew it existed. Why debate on something which
they all assumed and agreed on? I challenge you to find where the
founders debated on wether or not women should take part in the
debates...it was assumed they wouldn't.

As the term "keep and
Post by Steve Krulick
bear arms" MEANS militia preservation (keep arms) and service
(bear arms), "owning and using guns" is NOT what Madison was
protecting.
True, the founders knew that if they had written "owning and using
guns" that people like you would have an easier time trying to tell
patriots that they could only own and use guns for hunting since no
militia implications were stated.
Post by Steve Krulick
"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render
possible the effectiveness of such forces [the well regulated
Militia armed, organized, and disciplined by the Congress, as
stated in the previous paragraph] the declaration and guarantee
of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and
applied with that end in view..."
Yep, that's what Reynolds said, it is unfortunate. The 5th has paved
way in SCOTUS re-visting whimpy, ambiguous Miller ruling. This time,
it will be different, there will be someone on the side of "the
people"
Post by Steve Krulick
You have a limited sense of the militia's operation. ARMS does
not refer merely to the personal weapons that a single
militiaman might bring when called up. "Keeping" is a militia
function, and it includes BOTH the communal storage and "keeping
up" of "arms" (which is the ENTIRE "equipage" of warfare: cannon
and balls, powder, tents, flags, wagons, siege apparatus,
engineering equipment, regimentals, accouterments, etc.) AND the
personal "keeping" of those REGISTERED militia weapons (see
Militia Act of 1792) specified by law.
To keep. Gun advocates read "to keep and bear" disjunctively,
and think the verbs refer to entirely separate activities.
"Keep," for them, means "possess personally at home"? a lot to
load into one word.
Well, let's see what Webster has to say about keep:

Main Entry: [1]keep
Pronunciation: 'kEp
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): kept /'kept/; keep·ing
Etymology: Middle English kepen, from Old English cEpan; perhaps akin
to Old High German chapfEn to look
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 : to take notice of by appropriate conduct : FULFILL: as a : to be
faithful to <keep a promise> b : to act fittingly in relation to <keep
the Sabbath> c : to conform to in habits or conduct <keep late hours>
d : to stay in accord with (a beat) <keep time>
2 : PRESERVE, MAINTAIN: as a : to watch over and defend <keep us from
harm> b (1) : to take care of : TEND <keep a garden> (2) : SUPPORT (3)
: to maintain in a good, fitting, or orderly condition &#8212; usually
used with up c : to continue to maintain <keep watch> d (1) : to cause
to remain in a given place, situation, or condition <keep him waiting>
(2) : to preserve (food) in an unspoiled condition e : to have or
maintain in one's service or at one's disposal <keep a mistress>
&#8212; often used with on <kept the cook on>; also : to lodge or feed
for pay <keep boarders> f (1) : to maintain a record in <keep a diary>
(2) : to enter in a book <keep records> g : to have customarily in
stock for sale
3 a : to restrain from departure or removal : DETAIN <keep children in
after school> b : HOLD BACK, RESTRAIN <keep them from going> <kept him
back with difficulty> c : SAVE, RESERVE <keep some for later> <kept
some out for a friend> d : to refrain from revealing <keep a secret>
4 a : to retain in one's possession or power <kept the money we found>
b : to refrain from granting, giving, or allowing <kept the news back>
c : to have in control <keep your temper>
5 : to confine oneself to <keep my room>
6 a : to stay or continue in <keep the path> <keep your seat> b : to
stay or remain on or in usually against opposition : HOLD <kept her
ground>
7 : CONDUCT, MANAGE <keep a tearoom>
intransitive senses
1 : chiefly British : LIVE, LODGE
2 a : to maintain a course, direction, or progress <keep to the right>
b : to continue usually without interruption <keep talking> <keep
quiet> <keep on smiling> c : to persist in a practice <kept bothering
them> <kept on smoking in spite of warnings>
3 : STAY, REMAIN <keep out of the way> <keep off the grass>: as a : to
stay even &#8212; usually used with up <keep up with the Joneses> b :
to remain in good condition <meat will keep in the freezer> c : to
remain secret <the secret would keep> d : to call for no immediate
action <the matter will keep until morning>
4 : ABSTAIN, REFRAIN <can't keep from talking>
5 : to be in session <school will keep through the winter &#8212;W. M.
Thayer>
6 : of a quarterback : to retain possession of a football especially
after faking a handoff
- keep an eye on : WATCH
- keep at : to persist in doing or concerning oneself with
- keep company : to go together as frequent companions or in courtship
- keep house : to manage a household
- keep one's distance or keep at a distance : to stay aloof : maintain
a reserved attitude
- keep one's eyes open or keep one's eyes peeled : to be on the alert
: be watchful
- keep one's hand in : to keep in practice
- keep pace : to stay even also : KEEP UP
- keep step : to keep in step
- keep to 1 a : to stay in b : to limit oneself to 2 : to abide by
- keep to oneself 1 : to keep secret <kept the facts to myself> 2 : to
remain solitary or apart from other people
synonyms KEEP, OBSERVE, CELEBRATE, COMMEMORATE mean to notice or honor
a day, occasion, or deed. KEEP stresses the idea of not neglecting or
violating <kept the Sabbath by refraining from work>. OBSERVE suggests
marking the occasion by ceremonious performance <not all holidays are
observed nationally>. CELEBRATE suggests acknowledging an occasion by
festivity <traditionally celebrates Thanksgiving with a huge dinner>.
COMMEMORATE suggests that an occasion is marked by observances that
remind one of the origin and significance of the day <commemorate
Memorial Day with the laying of wreaths>.
synonyms KEEP, RETAIN, DETAIN, WITHHOLD, RESERVE mean to hold in one's
possession or under one's control. KEEP may suggest a holding securely
in one's possession, custody, or control <keep this while I'm gone>.
RETAIN implies continued keeping, especially against threatened
seizure or forced loss <managed to retain their dignity even in
poverty>. DETAIN suggests a delay in letting go <detained them for
questioning>. WITHHOLD implies restraint in letting go or a refusal to
let go <withheld information from the authorities>. RESERVE suggests a
keeping in store for future use <reserve some of your energy for the
last mile>.


R O F L ....I guess ole Garry Wills would say that Webster "sure reads
alot into the word "keep"". Who the hell is this bozo??

To support this entirely fanciful
Post by Steve Krulick
construction, they have to neglect the vast literature on
militias. It is precisely in that literature that
to-keep-and-bear is a description of one connected process. To
understand what "keep" means in a military context, we must
recognize how the description of a local militia's function was
always read in contrast to the role of a standing army. Armies,
in the ideology of the time, should not be allowed to keep their
equipment in readiness...
The idea of militia "stands" in common depots or arsenals was
not confined to England. In America, the Articles of
Confederation required that "every state shall always keep up a
well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and
accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use,
in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a
proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."
(equipage being etymological sense of arma). Thus it is as
erroneous to suppose that "keep" means, of itself, "keep at
home" as to think that "arms" means only guns. Patrick Henry
tells us, the militia's arms include "regimentals, etc." flags,
ensigns, engineering tools, siege apparatus, and other
"accouterments of war."
Some arms could be kept at home, of course. Some officers kept
their most valuable piece of war equipment, a good cross-country
horse, at home, where its upkeep was a daily matter feeding and
physical regimen.
But military guns were not ideally kept home. When militias were
armed, it was, so far as possible, with guns of standard issue,
interchangeable parts, uniform in their shot, upkeep and
performance ? the kind of "firelocks" Trenchard wanted kept "in
every parish" (not every home). The contrast with armies was not
to be in performance (Trenchard and others boasted of the high
degree of efficient organization in militias). The contrast was
in continuity. The militia was always at the ready, its arms
"kept." Armies came and went ? their "continuation" was what
Trenchard attacked...
To keep-and-bear arms was the distinguishing note of the
militia's permanent readiness, as opposed to the army's duty of
taking up and laying down ("deponing" is Trenchard's word) their
arms in specific wars. The militia was maintained on a
continuing basis, its arsenal kept up, its readiness expressed
in the complex process specified by "keep-and-bear." To separate
one term from this context and treat it as specifying a
different right (of home possession) is to impart into the
language something foreign to each term in itself, to the
conjunction of terms, and to the entire context of Madison's
sentence.
"It is possible, and likely, that the "keep arms" component was
also understood in early America in an exclusively military
context. This is especially likely since virtually every militia
act used the word "keep" or a close synonym to describe the
requirement to own or have custody of a weapon and maintain it
for military use.
Yes...and it was used in an individual sense like "and each freeman
was expected to keep and maintain a musket with proper powder and
ball..."
Post by Steve Krulick
And there is no doubt that Americans like John
Adams, the author of the Massachusetts bill of rights of 1780
which was the first to use "keep arms" as part of a
constitutional guarantee, saw the English common law
implications of the phrase. However, like "bear arms," "keep
arms" was American terminology, as opposed to the English "have
arms" expression.
So...he was "English common law implications" of "American
terminology"
??

This crap just gets more and more sublime!! It is no wonder that PISS
(Pseudo)Intellectual Socialist Scum) like Bellisles with their
hollier-than-thou semi-educated stature get it stuffed in their faces
so effectively.


Therefore, it is time to relook at the Second
Post by Steve Krulick
Amendment and reconstruct this badly deconstructed article of
the Bill of Rights in a military context." (J.K.Rowland)
The "People" with the Jus Militiae right to "keep and bear
arms," which means both to maintain the upkeep of ("keep") and
to serve IN the militia, if qualified, drawn from the body of
THE PEOPLE ("bear"), were only those of the FREEMAN CLASS;
furthermore, Congress could not infringe on that right by making
it moot by FAILING to fulfill their constitutional duty to ARM,
ORGANIZE, and DISCIPLINE the Militia, which is what Mason and
the anti-feds were concerned about, and WHY the 2nd Amen was
written and passed.
FINALLY!! You've shown your colors.
Post by Steve Krulick
Those individuals who qualified for "bearing arms" (serving)
within a well regulated militia could not be deprived of owning
and storing at home THOSE weapons in service to the militia,
such weapons being inspected and "enrolled" (registered) each
year during the call up for drilling and taking a "return of
militia" to maintain a record of the inventory of men and
weapons the state had at its disposal (Militia Act of 1792).
Post by Ken Maltby
If they cannot have them as individual
personal property,
Nobody said they couldn't! Read the above para.
Post by Ken Maltby
only as collective property of
"The People" where were they kept?
False premise. As shown above, SOME weapons were provided by
each militiaman, indeed was a requirement that he provide a
musket and supplies at his own expense, and REGISTER them at
muster each year. Many, if not most "arms" which included, as
shown above, far more than just individual muskets, were best
stored in secure armories and central "stores" or "stands" just
as the AoC required, to be used only as needed. It was the duty
of the STATE to maintain the "upkeep" of these permanently ready
arms, hence the term, KEEP ARMS!
If they merely meant "own guns" they could have said so, eh?
Post by Ken Maltby
It seems to me that Mr. Krulick must believe that
there were "People's Armories"
Well, yes, there were! Are you so ignorant of history? Again,
The idea of militia "stands" in common depots or arsenals was
not confined to England. In America, the Articles of
Confederation required that "every state shall always keep up a
well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and
accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use,
in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a
proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."
(equipage being etymological sense of arma). Thus it is as
erroneous to suppose that "keep" means, of itself, "keep at
home" as to think that "arms" means only guns. Patrick Henry
tells us, the militia's arms include "regimentals, etc." flags,
ensigns, engineering tools, siege apparatus, and other
"accouterments of war."
Do you feel better educated now?
Post by Ken Maltby
and perhaps wishes
for a "Peoples Army".
The militia WAS a "People's Army" of part-time citizen-soldiers!
THAT was why Jefferson, Mason, and Madison FOUGHT for keeping IT
rather than a standing army of professional full-time soldiers!
I'm sorry, but what grade in elementary school did you say you
were in?
Post by Ken Maltby
While many comunities did maintain an armory for
their collective protection (from indians, French, ect...)
they all required that, those who could, supply their own
personnal arms. According to one of my family records
part of the reason for local armories was to insure that
there would be suficent shot and powder on hand in
case of an threat to the whole comunity.
As I said, it was a combination of both: private weapons and
public weapons, BOTH registered and inventoried so the community
knew where they stood in terms of defense capabilities.
Post by Ken Maltby
Just how does a collective People have any property
that is not property of the state?
False premise. The militias were ALWAYS the military arm of the
state, hence the state was ALWAYS responsible for arming and
organizing and controlling the militias! ANY other arrangement
"[T]he militia then must all obey the sovereign majority, or
divide, and part follow the majority, and part the minority.
This last case is civil war; but until it comes to this, the
whole militia may be employed by the majority in any degree of
tyranny and oppression over the minority.
The constitution furnishes no resource or remedy; nothing
affords a chance of relief but rebellion and civil war: if this
terminates in favor of the minority, they will terrorize in
their turns, exasperated by revenge, in addition to ambition and
avarice; if the majority prevail, their domination becomes more
cruel, and soon ends in one despot. It must be made a sacred
maxim, that the militia obey the executive power, which
represents the whole people in the execution of laws.
To suppose arms in the hands of the citizens, to be used at
individual discretion, except in private self defense, or by
partial orders of towns, counties, or districts of a state, is
to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so
that liberty can be enjoyed by no man ? is a dissolution of the
government.
The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created,
directed, and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of
the laws."
John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the
United States of America, p. 474-5 (1787-88)
PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary
STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.
In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary
FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary
(That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!)
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Ken Maltby
While this is not likely
to be a problem for Mr. Krulick,
It's not a problem for anyone who knows what the terms mean!
Post by Ken Maltby
it seems out of place
in a document setting out what may not be infringed by
the goverment.
It's not relevant. See Article I, Section 8: CONGRESS MUST
provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining the militia!
THAT was why the 2nd Amen was written, to insure the Congress
not FAIL to arm the militia, thereby weakening it to
destruction, and replacing it with a standing army!
You'll learn about this when you get to fifth grade.
Post by Ken Maltby
LoL,
Ken
Yes, the ignorant are often found laughing at the wise!
Steve Krulick
2003-07-14 04:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
For what? Unless you are posting in
alt.politics.usa.constitution, I don't see it!
What kind of analysis?
Oh, I assume you mean how the term THE PEOPLE is used. Sheesh,
I've posted that a hundred times at least!
Oops, left it out!:

WHENEVER the term-of-art "THE PEOPLE" appears in the
Constitution or BoR, or even other official documents of the
era, it means one thing only, in every case: THE PEOPLE is a
singular entity, the collective enfranchised body politic,
specifically, the CLASS of Freeman taken collectively in its
political capacity.

The only PERSONS with "political capacity" were FREEMEN, that
is, free, white males of legal age. Often this was called
FREEHOLDER and then also meant property-owning free, white males
of legal age. The term ELECTOR was often used in local or state
documents, and this may have restricted political capacity even
further, by, say, requiring residence in a location for a
certain period of time.

In 1789, women, black slaves, kids, non-citizens (such as
foreigners, Indians, prisoners, rebels/Tories, etc.) had NO
political capacity. They could not vote, and were not required
to serve on juries or in the militia. In that sense, they were
NOT a constituent part of THE PEOPLE! Thus, they had, or may
have had, the rights of all INDIVIDUALS, such as freedom of
religion or habeus corpus, but NOT the rights of FREEMEN or of
the collective FREEMAN class. OR, and this is where the BoR
comes in, any rights they MAY have claimed were not PROTECTED or
GUARANTEED by the Const!

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Yes, individuals comprise the CLASS of FREEMEN who make up THE
PEOPLE. But *A* single individual doesn't necessarily have the
rights and powers that only the collective class or subset
thereof may enjoy. Yes, individuals make up a jury, but no ONE
individual person can declare HIMSELF a legal jury of one, or
put himself ON a jury, or find someone guilty independent of
the other jurors, can he? Only the jury as a whole can do what
the jury is empowered to do. There ARE NO one-man militias, and
only THE PEOPLE collectively can organize, arm, and maintain a
militia. Congress can declare war, but NOT one Congressman on
his own. The individual that the collective is composed of may
share in the power and rights of the whole, but doesn't have ALL
the same characteristics or prerogatives of the whole. Or, even
as to collective entities, the United States may declare war,
but NOT an individual state.

A building may be made of bricks, but a brick is NOT the
building! The part is NOT the same as the whole, nor does it
have the same properties or abilities. One can meet IN a
building, but that doesn't mean one can meet in a brick, or even
a pile of bricks equal in number to the number of bricks making
up a building! If one removes one brick from the building, the
building still remains; if one removes and replaces 50 bricks,
the building remains, independent of the particular bricks
changed.

A corporation may be made up of individuals, but it has an
existence that is not dependent on the life or death, or coming
and going of any particular individual.

So, what THE PEOPLE may do as an enfranchised body politic is
NOT necessarily something any individual may do on his own.
However, an individual may share in the process, and may, as a
member of a designated class or subclass, enjoy the rights OF
that class. IF you are a homeowner, the 3rd Amen rights may be
invoked IF you feel your rights as such have been violated. Not
because YOU yourself are listed in the Const, but because YOU
fit the class protected by the collective term "homeowner."

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

(That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!)

BODY POLITIC: When applied to the government this phrase
signifies the state. As to the persons who compose the body
politic, they take collectively the name, of people, or nation;
and individually they are citizens, when considered in relation
to their political rights, and subjects as being submitted to
the laws of the state.

CITIZEN: , persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.

3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Steve Krulick
1 plural : human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a
common interest
2 plural : HUMAN BEINGS, PERSONS -- often used in compounds instead of
persons
3 plural : the members of a family or kinship
4 plural : the mass of a community as distinguished from a special
class -- often used by Communists to distinguish Communists from other
people
5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common
culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common
language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a
politically organized group
6 : lower animals usually of a specified kind or situation
7 : the body of enfranchised citizens of a state
For legal/political/constitutional purposes, #7 is the SINGULAR
and relevant term; the others can go take a hike!

The LEGAL concept of THE PEOPLE is not numerical or even
geographical, but conceptual and political, and THAT definition
is: "the body of enfranchised citizens of the state." IT is a
SINGULAR, collective entity.

Citizens, or "individuals," included women, children and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense!

(BTW, it seems, according to the Bouvier Law Dictionary,
"citizen" only originally and primarily referred to the
enfranchised white male of age, which is ONLY the same class
that is called... THE PEOPLE, and from which the militia is
drawn as "the BODY of the PEOPLE"! Only in a wider and secondary
use did "citizen" include the non-enfranchised WHITES; blacks
before the War of the Rebellion did NOT have the title
"citizen"!)

The PEOPLE is not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular
entity, like a corporation, which also is made up of
individuals, yet it has perpetual existence and powers
independent and beyond the individuals comprising it.

Some rights are of individuals, and some are of the THE WHOLE
PEOPLE, just as Gallatin said:

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large or considered as individuals... It
establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."
- Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7,
1789

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large OR considered as individuals...

And the 2nd Amen is a perfect example of a right of the people
at large!

"The people," as the "people at large," the "whole body of the
people," the collective "body politic," have the populus armatus
jus militiae right to be involved in the state's (or nation's)
military function, by establishing, arming, controlling,
maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the militia ("keep arms"
as Adams meant it), and serving ("bear arms" as Madison meant
it, if qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as opposed to "regular"
professional soldiers in a standing army), drawn from the "body
of the people," and "trained to arms" and "enrolled" into an
organized, "well regulated" state militia.

"It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."

But the "right" to "own and carry guns" was never one of them.
(See Pennsylvania Test Acts)
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS of THE PEOPLE CLASS, for whom the law was
written, have the distributive right to assemble.

(How does ONE individual assemble anyway, eh?)

It had nothing to do with you and your pals getting together to
"assemble" and throw back some brews! It was about political
assemblies relating to forming and maintaining the civic
function.

The ONLY PERSONS for whom THIS RIGHT was relevant were the
FREEMAN CLASS MEMBERS who could vote, hold office, and have
political conventions.

Even the 1st Amen reference to THE People, which some harp on,
WAS originally written to refer ONLY to THE People in their
collective role! In one of the longest and most divided ongoing
House debates in 1789, the original phrase in what was to become
the 1st Amen was the flashpoint for what divided those who
sought more democratic input from those who wanted the
representatives to be more independent. The original words read:

"The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling
and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the
legislature by petitions, or remonstrances for redress of their
grievances." (Madison, June 1789)

Rep. Tucker wanted to add after "consulting for their common
good," "to instruct their representative." THIS was the nature
of the PEOPLE assembling that the Congress had in mind.

A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.

INDIVIDUALS who are members of THE CLASS known as THE PEOPLE may
invoke the right the Class retains IF the right is relevant to
the circumstance AND distributable; some rights of the CEBP ARE
distributable (like being secure from unreasonable searches),
some are not (like indicting, trying, and convicting citizens of
crimes; NO individual can do this on his own, unless delegated
to do so by THE People, e.g., a DA or judge, and no group of
individuals, e.g. a jury, unless by due process and AS reps of
THE people!)

So, when a group of enfranchised Freemen choose to ASSEMBLE as a
political convention to choose a candidate to run for office, or
to adapt a platform, congress can't interfere. The NUMBER of
persons who wish to assemble for this purpose is immaterial --
although it must be more than ONE for there to BE any assembling
going on! -- and the right protects THAT group and also the
individuals present as long as THEY are members OF the protected
class, in this case THE People, which only included enfranchised
Freemen in 1789.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
Again, THAT right is WRITTEN collectively for "The People"
to PROTECT a PARTICULAR CLASS of persons only! Individual
members OF that FREEMAN CLASS may invoke THAT distributive
right. Some rights were written for individuals AS individuals,
some rights for individuals AS members of a particular class,
distributively, other rights were collective rights of the
People at large. THAT is the nature of the BoR; there are
SEVERAL levels of rights included, and the language is the key
to WHICH classes or persons are covered.

They were originally written to include, as Gallatin said,
rights of THE People at large AND/OR individuals. Collective
rights of THE People were designed to protect the class of THE
People, the enfranchised body politic, composed of free, white,
male voters. Any reference to THE People deals with that class,
collectively. Individual members OF that class may invoke the
rights if applicable and distributive. That's how it worked in
the Mass Const and the US const followed that model.

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Some rights are individual and apply to ALL individuals or to
particular classes of individuals when applicable. Other rights
are OF the collective entity itself, INDIVISIBLE, and not based
on numbers:

Rights are collective AND individual; collective in their
formulation, individual OR collective in their exercise and
application. It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

But unless your name is engraved in the Const, you have the
rights that accrue to you as a member of the class that IS
engraved therein. Does the 6th Amen say "Joe Doe shall enjoy the
right to a speedy and public trial &c"? Of course not! But if
you are arrested, as one who qualifies as a member of the class
of persons called "accused," you have the rights. Can you
appreciate the subtle difference? Your 3rd Amen rights likewise
depend on your being a homeowner. Not ALL homeowners, not a
collective group of homeowners, but ONE OF A CLASS defined as
"persons who own a home." GET IT?

The 3rd Amen talks about the consent of "the owner" (singular),
not "the people" (plural). The 5th Amen says "no person"
(singular), not "no people" (plural). The 1st Amen talks of the
right of "the people" to assemble (obviously plural; how can a
single individual "assemble"?). The 6th Amen refers to "the
accused," "him," and "his" (singular). The 8th Amen avoids the
problem altogether. If they wanted to, the authors COULD have
written "the right of persons to..." to clearly refer to
individuals, or else written "the right to keep and bear arms,
shall not be infringed" to be as vague as the 8th. Well, they
didn't write "persons" when they could have, so there's no
reason to see an individual right. As the courts have affirmed.

In 1792, when the Militia Act was passed, WHO had the specific
right to "bear arms" ("to render military service in person" as
Madison defined it)? Did blacks have the right? Women?
15-year-olds? Non-property owners? Cripples? Feeble-minded?
Prisoners? "Injuns"? "Furreners"? Indeed, the MAJORITY of people
in the country did NOT have the right to "bear arms" in the
militia, hence they had no militia "right" to "bear arms."
Indeed, laws were passed PREVENTING some, such as blacks, from
even possessing guns, "carrying guns" being a separate action
from "bearing arms."

BUT the PEOPLE AT LARGE, the enfranchised body politic (who
WERE, for the most part, the SAME free, white, property-owning
males who could vote, serve on juries AND made up the militia)
ALWAYS had the collective right to "keep and bear arms," a term
of art first used in the 1780 Mass Const by John Adams, that
referred to the democratic organization, control, arming, and
preservation of the well-regulated state militias by the PEOPLE
AT LARGE, the WHOLE PEOPLE as the populus armatus, exercising
their jus militiae right to participate in the state's and
nation's military function, and, if qualified, to serve in
person as a citizen-soldier, as conscript duty if required, to
forestall the need to rely on a standing army, the "bane of
liberty"! The PEOPLE "keep" (keep permanently ready and maintain
in public stores, as Adams and the Articles of Confederation
meant it) and "bear" ("bear arms" meant to Madison in the 2nd
Amen draft "to render military service") in their collective
capacity. For example, a 70-year-old crippled white male could
VOTE for state reps who organized and controlled the militia;
though unable to "bear arms" in the militia personally, he COULD
participate IN the collective function, exercising HIS PART of
that collective right! A 30-year-old white women in 1792 could
do NEITHER!

The 1st Amen freedom of religion applies to EVERYONE, the 3rd
Amen to homeowners (it isn't relevant to anyone else), the 6th
Amen to those accused of a crime... NOT the same classes of
persons, with decreasing levels of inclusion. The "People" of
the 2nd Amen are ONLY those who qualified to vote or (for the
most part) serve in the militia, which WAS NOT everyone by a
long shot. Did blacks, women, 15-year-olds, non-property owners,
have 1st Amen rights? Did those same persons have the right to
serve in the militia, and thereby "bear arms," or vote
democratically (the Const also says "the People" vote for
Congress every two years; did everyone vote? NO? That's why the
People is ONLY the enfranchised body politic!) to participate in
the organization and control of the militia ("keep and bear
arms")?

Were THOSE PERSONS not individuals? Weren't many even citizens?
But they WERE NOT a part of THE PEOPLE!

Laws are written in the collective and general class sense, but
applied in specific individual and class instances IF you are in
the applicable class. IF you are in the class known as
"homeowner" you have individual 3rd Amen rights; IF you are in
the class known as "accused" you have individual 6th Amen
rights.

IF you are a member of the CLASS known as the PEOPLE, i.e., the
enfranchised body politic, YOUR 4th Amen right to be secure in
YOUR person and property is protected. THAT'S why it says THE
PEOPLE.

Which is composed of Freemen, as they belong to the class known
as the People; as Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this Amen
indicated "The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR
[emph. added] persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR
other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."
protects the CLASS, so when a member of that class is abused of
these rights, as formulated FOR the CLASS, he, as a member OF
the CLASS, can invoke the rights under the Const for INDIVIDUAL
APPLICATION.

Is that so hard to understand? Hell, even Rehnquist, in
Verdugo, suggested that foreigners, as NON-members of the CLASS
known as The People, did NOT have 4th Amen rights that belonged
TO the CLASS known as The People!

The rights are different rights in each Amen. The People is the
same The People. But some of the RIGHTS apply ONLY to the People
in their collective capacity as the enfranchised body politic
(the whole People), others to certain members of that class
taken collectively (e.g. the militia drawn from "the body of the
People), others to a specific sub-class of The People (The
People of the State), others to the Freemen who comprise The
People, taken collectively or as an individual Freeman. I drew
the distinctions for the different "the People" amendments in
the previous posts.



Second Thoughts: What the right to bear arms really means.
by Akhil Reed Amar
http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/103wha.htm

"The amendment speaks of a right of "the people" collectively
rather than a right of "persons" individually.

And it uses a distinctly military phrase: "bear arms." A deer
hunter or target shooter carries a gun but does not, strictly
speaking, bear arms. The military connotation was even more
obvious in an earlier draft of the amendment, which contained
additional language that "no one religiously scrupulous of
bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in
person." Even in the final version, note how the military phrase
"bear arms" is sandwiched between a clause that talks about the
"militia" and a clause (the Third Amendment) that regulates the
quartering of "soldiers" in times of "war" and "peace."
Likewise, state constitutions in place in 1789 consistently used
the phrase "bear arms" in military contexts and no other.

... anachronistically, libertarians read "the people" to mean
atomized private persons, each hunting in his own private Idaho,
rather than the citizenry acting collectively.

But, when the Constitution speaks of "the people" rather than
"persons," the collective connotation is primary.

"We the People" in the preamble do ordain and establish the
Constitution as public citizens meeting together in conventions
and acting in concert, not as private individuals pursuing our
respective hobbies. The only other reference to "the people" in
the Philadelphia Constitution of 1787 appears a sentence away
from the preamble, and here, too, the meaning is public and
political, not private and individualistic. Every two years,
"the people" -- that is, the voters -- elect the House.

To see the key distinction another way, recall that women in
1787 had the rights of "persons" (such as freedom to worship and
protections of privacy in their homes) but did not directly
participate in the acts of "the people" -- they did not vote in
constitutional conventions or for Congress, nor were they part
of the militia/people at the heart of the Second Amendment.

The rest of the Bill of Rights confirms this communitarian
reading. The core of the First Amendment's assembly clause,
which textually abuts the Second Amendment, is the right of "the
people" -- in essence, voters -- to "assemble" in constitutional
conventions and other political conclaves. So, too, the core
rights retained and reserved to "the people" in the Ninth and
Tenth Amendments were rights of the people collectively to
govern themselves democratically.

"The Fourth Amendment is trickier: "The right of the people to
be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against
unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

Here, the collective "people" wording is paired with more
individualistic language of "persons." And these words obviously
focus on the private domain, protecting individuals in their
private homes more than in the public square. Why, then, did the
Fourth use the words "the people" at all? Probably to highlight
the role that jurors -- acting collectively and representing the
electorate -- would play in deciding which searches were
reasonable and how much to punish government officials who
searched or seized improperly. An early draft of James Madison's
amendment protecting jury rights helps make this linkage obvious
and also resonates with the language of the Second Amendment:
"[T]he trial by jury, as one of the best securities to the
rights of the people, ought to remain inviolate." Note the
obvious echoes here -- "security" (Second Amendment), "secure"
(Fourth Amendment), and "securities" (draft amendment); "shall
not be infringed," "shall not be violated," and "ought to remain
inviolate"; and, of course, "the right of the people" in all
three places.

If we want an image of the people's militia at the Founding, we
should think first of the militia's cousin, the jury. Like the
militia, the jury was a local body countering imperial
power -- summoned by the government but standing outside it,
representing the people, collectively. Like jury service,
militia participation was both a right and a duty of qualified
voters who were regularly summoned to discharge their public
obligations. Like the jury, the militia was composed of amateurs
arrayed against, and designed to check, permanent and
professional government officials (judges and prosecutors, in
the case of the jury; a standing army in the case of the
militia). Like the jury, the militia embodied collective
political action rather than private pursuits.

Founding history confirms this. The Framers envisioned Minutemen
bearing guns, not Daniel Boone gunning bears. When we turn to
state constitutions, we consistently find arms-bearing and
militia clauses intertwined with rules governing standing
armies, troop-quartering, martial law, and civilian supremacy.
Libertarians cannot explain this clear pattern that has
everything to do with the military and nothing to do with
hunting."



Amar's overall 4th Amen explanation makes tentative sense, but
I'm not totally convinced by it, as I've said, and my latest
hypothesis would suggest a more limited right than is normally
thought, but, hey, that is the same situation with the 1st and
2nd Amens too, isn't it?

Here's something based on what I posted in 2001, before I read
Amar's piece:

"It would be awkward to have said 'right of persons to be secure
in their persons, etc.'

Look at Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this:

"The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR [emph. added]
persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR other property
from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."

Why in the plural, even collective, sense at all?

This could have been rewritten to emphasize the individual
nature of the right, for example, the NY proposal (and likewise
the VA proposal) said:

"That every Freeman has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

but it was merely shortened and tightened by Congress. There was
almost no House debate over this amendment other than a few
minor insertions, as it was late August and they were trying to
wrap up. Perhaps they were not as fastidious as Adams was in
the Mass Const for maintaining consistency of usage.

No question, this, at first, seems to us to be an INDIVIDUAL
right, but the phrasing should have been more consistent to
reflect that if it were.

Of all the amendments, THIS one varies MOST from the
recommendations of the state proposals in this regard, and
strays most from otherwise consistent usage of plural "the
people" and individual "person" or cognates (including the 1st
AND 2nd Amens, to be addressed separately).

Unless there is collective sense I'm missing."


Since then, I've read Amar's piece, and I find it less than
wholly satisfying re the 4th, but I see his point; in any case,
there is more reason to accept ONE amen, the 4th, as being able
to be seen as involving the collective people, in some
philosophical and abstract way that isn't readily apparent, and
as *I* have now further suggested, than to see at least THREE
amens, plus OTHER uses in the Const, as involving individuals
when it is so clear that the collective sense IS meant, based on
ALL the other clues and contexts.

Even the 1st Amen reference to THE People, which some harp on,
WAS originally written to refer ONLY to THE People in their
collective role! In one of the longest and most divided ongoing
House debates in 1789, the original phrase in what was to become
the 1st Amen was the flashpoint for what divided those who
sought more democratic input from those who wanted the
representatives to be more independent. The original words read:

"The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling
and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the
legislature by petitions, or remonstrances for redress of their
grievances." (Madison, June 1789)

Rep. Tucker wanted to add after "consulting for their common
good," "to instruct their representative." THIS was the nature
of the PEOPLE assembling that the Congress had in mind.

When the Mass Const is referenced against this, which Madison
surely had access to, there is less doubt that the intention was
for collective consistency; however, unlike in Mass, the US
Const was picked apart and reassembled by many authors, and the
end result may have lacked the unifying hand of one single
author or editor, as Mass did with Adams.

So, the enfranchised persons who made up THE PEOPLE, and who
COULD serve in juries/militias/legislatures/conventions, rather
than EACH "person" per se (which included women, children, and
other "second class citizens") were those Madison was primarily
concerned with protecting, since THEY were the only persons
whose right and expectation to be free from govt snooping
affected their ability to act freely and independently in the
public arena (juries/legislatures/conventions) free from fear or
intimidation. And this even comports with the NY and VA
proposals that said:

"That every FREEMAN has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

Why did this say FREEMAN (sometimes FREEHOLDER) rather than just
person/citizen/individual? FREEMAN is the ONLY singular term
that leaves out ALL the citizens/persons/individuals who are NOT
those included in the enfranchised (AND propertied!) class known
as THE PEOPLE, and so referred to in every other instance!

Perhaps Madison and the Congress WERE JUST AS consistent as
Adams was in the MA Const of 1780 in using that term, even if we
didn't notice it at first!

IF this is so, than Amar, himself, is wrong to focus on the
right of privacy as being for ANY person who was not otherwise
part of the ENFRANCHISED PEOPLE! (This NOW includes blacks and
women, of course, but not, for example, kids, which would allow
school locker searches as clearly NOT being a 4th Amen
violation.)

Doesn't it make more sense that the same guys who OK'd slavery
and that women couldn't vote were not so concerned about those
same "second-class citizens" not having various "security"
rights as well? What rights and powers did blacks, kids, and
women have that were to be "retained" by them in Amens 9 and 10?
Which of these persons were going to "consult" or "petition the
legislature" when they couldn't vote or serve? Which of these
persons were going to serve on juries or in the militia, or vote
on the maintenance of the militia, and who needed to be "secure
in their persons... papers... property" to prevent intimidation
when serving in office, on juries, or as voters? Which of these
persons voted each two years on the House races? NONE, and so,
THEY weren't PART OF THE PEOPLE the Const speaks of in EACH
case!

"Individuals" included women, children, and, then as now, other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense! The PEOPLE is
not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular entity, like a
corporation, which also is made up of individuals, yet it has
perpetual existence and powers independent and beyond the
individuals comprising it. As a single stockholder in AOL, could
*I* buy up the whole Time-Warner Company? NO, only the corporate
entity can do that, whether *I* agree or not.

Checks to the Boys Scouts of America can be tax-deductible, but
NOT checks made out to an individual boy scout; Congress can
declare war, but not an individual congresscritter; a jury has
the right to send someone to prison, but not an individual jury
member; THE PEOPLE can democratically decide how to organize and
control the militia's upkeep and readiness ("keep arms" as Adams
meant it), and who gets to serve in it ("bear arms" as Madison
meant it), but there are NO one-man militias and each or any
single militiaman doesn't get to unilaterally set policy or
order himself into battle.

THE PEOPLE have the right to alter or abolish their govt... but
ONLY when they are acting as THE WHOLE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE AT
LARGE, THE BODY POLITIC; individuals don't have that right, and
are correctly treated as rebels and insurrectionists when they
do.

Mr. Madison: "The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts
(Gerry), asks if the sovereignty is not with the people at
large; does he infer that the people can, in detached bodies,
contravene an act established by the whole people? My idea of
the sovereignty of the people is, that the people can change the
constitution if they please, but while the constitution exists,
they must conform themselves to its dictates. But I do not
believe that the inhabitants of any district can speak the voice
of the people, so far from it, their ideas may contradict the
sense of the whole people..."

Notice that Madison is using PEOPLE to refer to several levels
of collective "wholeness," from the "whole people," also the
"people at large," to "people... in detached bodies," to the
"inhabitants of any district." And note too, that "the
inhabitants of any district" which is a certain number of
individuals fewer than "the whole people" are not considered to
be able to "speak the voice of the people," and that even a
goodly number of individuals DO NOT equal or make up "the whole
people." Clearly, "the whole people," "the people at large,"
"the voice of the people," is NOT the same thing as EVEN plural
individuals, much less ANY particular individual!

Does "people" always mean the same thing, as some contend?
HERE, in ONE paragraph, ONE MAN, the MAN WHO WROTE THE BOR, uses
people in multiple senses: "people... in detached bodies" is
NOT "THE whole people." Can "people" (persons) as a bunch of
individuals "change the constitution"? NO, only "The whole
people" in their collective political capacity can do that.
There are things that ONLY THE PEOPLE as a whole can do, such as
"bear arms" against another nation, that each and every
individual can't do on his own.

That is why THE PEOPLE, collectively, can, and have the "right"
to, "keep and bear arms" since there ARE no one-man militias or
one-man declarations of war!
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
See Amar, above. See Heyman, below:

When it says THE PEOPLE, it MEANS THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised
body politic, taken collectively, just as Heyman says Adams
meant in the Mass Const:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/HeymanChicago.htm

How was the right to arms understood in post-Revolutionary
America? We can attain great insight on this point by exploring
the Massachusetts Constitution of 1780.[145] This document,
which was drafted by John Adams, contains the most carefully
written of all the state declarations of rights and constitutes
one of the best statements "of the fundamental rights of
Americans at the end of the Revolutionary period." [146] [Page
261]

In its preamble, the Massachusetts Constitution sets forth the
relationship between society and its members. The "people" or
"the body-politic" are "formed by a voluntary association of
individuals," who come together through "a social compact." What
is most remarkable is that, having distinguished between the
"people" and "the individuals who compose it," the document then
uses these terms in a consistent way throughout. This makes it
possible to discern with great clarity how the various rights
were understood, and whether they were viewed in individual or
collective terms...

In this way, the Massachusetts declaration draws a clear and
uniform distinction between the rights that belong to
individuals and those that belong to the people as a whole. This
distinction is followed so carefully that it is observed even
when both sorts of rights are implicated. Thus, Article XXIX
declares that the independence of the judiciary is essential
"for the security of the rights of the people, and of every
citizen."

Article XVII of the Massachusetts declaration reads as follows:

The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common
defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to
liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of
the legislature; and the military shall always be held in an
exact subordination to the civil authority and shall be governed
by it.

In view of the declaration's careful usage, there can be no
question that the "right to keep and bear arms" that it
recognizes is one that belongs not to private individuals but to
the people in their collective capacity. This is made even more
clear by the fact that the right is to bear arms "for the common
defence," as well as by the overall concern of the provision: to
control the military force of the community and guard against
the danger of military tyranny. [148]

I have chosen to focus on the Massachusetts Constitution because
of the precision of its language, which strongly illuminates the
nature of the rights that it contains. Yet the same distinction
[Page 263] between "individuals" (or cognate terms) and "the
people" is also generally, although not invariably, observed in
the other post-Revolutionary state declarations of rights. When
these documents recognize a right to bear arms, they always
describe it as a right of "the people," rather than of every
"individual" or "man." [149] This is strong evidence that the
right was understood in collective terms."
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies.
Show ONE! It's all in your febrile mind!

"Grass is green"

"Why won't you admit that Grass isn't black?"

"I said, Grass is GREEN!"

"Oh, so now you want us to believe that Grass IS black?!!"
Post by Steve Krulick
There are NONE, but YOU can't get around your strawslinging and
refusing to read what I DID say!
Post by Ken Maltby
If "the people" refers to "the states" or
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick
Which merely shows how much evidence supports my position!
Post by Ken Maltby
explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms?
universal militia vs. select militia, state vs. fed control of
the militia, who - state or feds - was going to provide arms. I
challenge you to produce ANY 2nd Amen debate material that
discusses private ownership of weapons. As the term "keep and
bear arms" MEANS militia preservation (keep arms) and service
(bear arms), "owning and using guns" is NOT what Madison was
"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render
possible the effectiveness of such forces [the well regulated
Militia armed, organized, and disciplined by the Congress, as
stated in the previous paragraph] the declaration and guarantee
of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and
applied with that end in view..."
You have a limited sense of the militia's operation. ARMS does
not refer merely to the personal weapons that a single
militiaman might bring when called up. "Keeping" is a militia
function, and it includes BOTH the communal storage and "keeping
up" of "arms" (which is the ENTIRE "equipage" of warfare: cannon
and balls, powder, tents, flags, wagons, siege apparatus,
engineering equipment, regimentals, accouterments, etc.) AND the
personal "keeping" of those REGISTERED militia weapons (see
Militia Act of 1792) specified by law.
To keep. Gun advocates read "to keep and bear" disjunctively,
and think the verbs refer to entirely separate activities.
"Keep," for them, means "possess personally at home"— a lot to
load into one word. To support this entirely fanciful
construction, they have to neglect the vast literature on
militias. It is precisely in that literature that
to-keep-and-bear is a description of one connected process. To
understand what "keep" means in a military context, we must
recognize how the description of a local militia's function was
always read in contrast to the role of a standing army. Armies,
in the ideology of the time, should not be allowed to keep their
equipment in readiness...
The idea of militia "stands" in common depots or arsenals was
not confined to England. In America, the Articles of
Confederation required that "every state shall always keep up a
well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and
accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use,
in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a
proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."
(equipage being etymological sense of arma). Thus it is as
erroneous to suppose that "keep" means, of itself, "keep at
home" as to think that "arms" means only guns. Patrick Henry
tells us, the militia's arms include "regimentals, etc." flags,
ensigns, engineering tools, siege apparatus, and other
"accouterments of war."
Some arms could be kept at home, of course. Some officers kept
their most valuable piece of war equipment, a good cross-country
horse, at home, where its upkeep was a daily matter feeding and
physical regimen.
But military guns were not ideally kept home. When militias were
armed, it was, so far as possible, with guns of standard issue,
interchangeable parts, uniform in their shot, upkeep and
performance — the kind of "firelocks" Trenchard wanted kept "in
every parish" (not every home). The contrast with armies was not
to be in performance (Trenchard and others boasted of the high
degree of efficient organization in militias). The contrast was
in continuity. The militia was always at the ready, its arms
"kept." Armies came and went — their "continuation" was what
Trenchard attacked...
To keep-and-bear arms was the distinguishing note of the
militia's permanent readiness, as opposed to the army's duty of
taking up and laying down ("deponing" is Trenchard's word) their
arms in specific wars. The militia was maintained on a
continuing basis, its arsenal kept up, its readiness expressed
in the complex process specified by "keep-and-bear." To separate
one term from this context and treat it as specifying a
different right (of home possession) is to impart into the
language something foreign to each term in itself, to the
conjunction of terms, and to the entire context of Madison's
sentence.
"It is possible, and likely, that the "keep arms" component was
also understood in early America in an exclusively military
context. This is especially likely since virtually every militia
act used the word "keep" or a close synonym to describe the
requirement to own or have custody of a weapon and maintain it
for military use. And there is no doubt that Americans like John
Adams, the author of the Massachusetts bill of rights of 1780
which was the first to use "keep arms" as part of a
constitutional guarantee, saw the English common law
implications of the phrase. However, like "bear arms," "keep
arms" was American terminology, as opposed to the English "have
arms" expression. Therefore, it is time to relook at the Second
Amendment and reconstruct this badly deconstructed article of
the Bill of Rights in a military context." (J.K.Rowland)
The "People" with the Jus Militiae right to "keep and bear
arms," which means both to maintain the upkeep of ("keep") and
to serve IN the militia, if qualified, drawn from the body of
THE PEOPLE ("bear"), were only those of the FREEMAN CLASS;
furthermore, Congress could not infringe on that right by making
it moot by FAILING to fulfill their constitutional duty to ARM,
ORGANIZE, and DISCIPLINE the Militia, which is what Mason and
the anti-feds were concerned about, and WHY the 2nd Amen was
written and passed.
Those individuals who qualified for "bearing arms" (serving)
within a well regulated militia could not be deprived of owning
and storing at home THOSE weapons in service to the militia,
such weapons being inspected and "enrolled" (registered) each
year during the call up for drilling and taking a "return of
militia" to maintain a record of the inventory of men and
weapons the state had at its disposal (Militia Act of 1792).
Post by Ken Maltby
If they cannot have them as individual
personal property,
Nobody said they couldn't! Read the above para.
Post by Ken Maltby
only as collective property of
"The People" where were they kept?
False premise. As shown above, SOME weapons were provided by
each militiaman, indeed was a requirement that he provide a
musket and supplies at his own expense, and REGISTER them at
muster each year. Many, if not most "arms" which included, as
shown above, far more than just individual muskets, were best
stored in secure armories and central "stores" or "stands" just
as the AoC required, to be used only as needed. It was the duty
of the STATE to maintain the "upkeep" of these permanently ready
arms, hence the term, KEEP ARMS!
If they merely meant "own guns" they could have said so, eh?
Post by Ken Maltby
It seems to me that Mr. Krulick must believe that
there were "People's Armories"
Well, yes, there were! Are you so ignorant of history? Again,
The idea of militia "stands" in common depots or arsenals was
not confined to England. In America, the Articles of
Confederation required that "every state shall always keep up a
well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and
accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use,
in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a
proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."
(equipage being etymological sense of arma). Thus it is as
erroneous to suppose that "keep" means, of itself, "keep at
home" as to think that "arms" means only guns. Patrick Henry
tells us, the militia's arms include "regimentals, etc." flags,
ensigns, engineering tools, siege apparatus, and other
"accouterments of war."
Do you feel better educated now?
Post by Ken Maltby
and perhaps wishes
for a "Peoples Army".
The militia WAS a "People's Army" of part-time citizen-soldiers!
THAT was why Jefferson, Mason, and Madison FOUGHT for keeping IT
rather than a standing army of professional full-time soldiers!
I'm sorry, but what grade in elementary school did you say you
were in?
Post by Ken Maltby
While many comunities did maintain an armory for
their collective protection (from indians, French, ect...)
they all required that, those who could, supply their own
personnal arms. According to one of my family records
part of the reason for local armories was to insure that
there would be suficent shot and powder on hand in
case of an threat to the whole comunity.
As I said, it was a combination of both: private weapons and
public weapons, BOTH registered and inventoried so the community
knew where they stood in terms of defense capabilities.
Post by Ken Maltby
Just how does a collective People have any property
that is not property of the state?
False premise. The militias were ALWAYS the military arm of the
state, hence the state was ALWAYS responsible for arming and
organizing and controlling the militias! ANY other arrangement
"[T]he militia then must all obey the sovereign majority, or
divide, and part follow the majority, and part the minority.
This last case is civil war; but until it comes to this, the
whole militia may be employed by the majority in any degree of
tyranny and oppression over the minority.
The constitution furnishes no resource or remedy; nothing
affords a chance of relief but rebellion and civil war: if this
terminates in favor of the minority, they will terrorize in
their turns, exasperated by revenge, in addition to ambition and
avarice; if the majority prevail, their domination becomes more
cruel, and soon ends in one despot. It must be made a sacred
maxim, that the militia obey the executive power, which
represents the whole people in the execution of laws.
To suppose arms in the hands of the citizens, to be used at
individual discretion, except in private self defense, or by
partial orders of towns, counties, or districts of a state, is
to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so
that liberty can be enjoyed by no man — is a dissolution of the
government.
The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created,
directed, and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of
the laws."
John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the
United States of America, p. 474-5 (1787-88)
PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary
STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.
In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary
FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary
(That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!)
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Ken Maltby
While this is not likely
to be a problem for Mr. Krulick,
It's not a problem for anyone who knows what the terms mean!
Post by Ken Maltby
it seems out of place
in a document setting out what may not be infringed by
the goverment.
It's not relevant. See Article I, Section 8: CONGRESS MUST
provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining the militia!
THAT was why the 2nd Amen was written, to insure the Congress
not FAIL to arm the militia, thereby weakening it to
destruction, and replacing it with a standing army!
You'll learn about this when you get to fifth grade.
Post by Ken Maltby
LoL,
Ken
Yes, the ignorant are often found laughing at the wise!
--
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
erniegalts
2003-07-14 06:10:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 04:22:55 GMT, Gunner <***@lightspeed.net>
wrote:


Up until the time that you provably lied about me, Gunner, some or
even all of the following might have been worth checking.

However, since you have lied about me, a former friend and a fellow
human being, then you obviously don't care anything about truth.

So why should anyone think you have any credibility on such issues?

You admit that you are not a Christian, yet you attack Christians.

You cannot prove your deliberate lie about me, yet even you know that
it is a lie. Yet you will not admit it is a lie.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
For what? Unless you are posting in
alt.politics.usa.constitution, I don't see it!
What kind of analysis?
Oh, I assume you mean how the term THE PEOPLE is used. Sheesh,
I've posted that a hundred times at least!
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies.
There are NONE, but YOU can't get around your strawslinging and
refusing to read what I DID say!
If "the people" refers to "the states" or
Post by Ken Maltby
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick
Which merely shows how much evidence supports my position!
Post by Ken Maltby
explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms?
universal militia vs. select militia, state vs. fed control of
the militia, who - state or feds - was going to provide arms. I
challenge you to produce ANY 2nd Amen debate material that
discusses private ownership of weapons. As the term "keep and
bear arms" MEANS militia preservation (keep arms) and service
(bear arms), "owning and using guns" is NOT what Madison was
<Snip a considerable amount of boilerplate cut and paste interpreted
180degrees out of phase.>
I posted three parts of SCOTUS decisions a moment ago. When you get
done with them, get back to us, ok?
Gunner
"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]
Steve Krulick
2003-07-14 08:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
But that's not the point. THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised body
politic, was empowered to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS in the complete
sense, NOT JUST the narrow sense. That is, THE PEOPLE had the
jus militiae right as the populus armatus to democratically
organize, control, maintain, AND populate the well regulated
state militias! What's the difference? Well, a FREEMAN who is 70
years old, or infirm, or exempt from actual service, was NOT
going to be IN the militia as a soldier, but, as a FREEMAN was
part of the PEOPLE class that voted on the state reps who were
responsible for the organization and control OF the state
militia, done as part of the collective state military function
of defense.
Still waiting.....
For what? Unless you are posting in
alt.politics.usa.constitution, I don't see it!
What kind of analysis?
Oh, I assume you mean how the term THE PEOPLE is used. Sheesh,
I've posted that a hundred times at least!
Post by Ken Maltby
Post by Gunner
Amendment I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America. "
He can probably post 700 or 800 lines about that, but he can't get
around his inconsistencies.
There are NONE, but YOU can't get around your strawslinging and
refusing to read what I DID say!
If "the people" refers to "the states" or
Post by Ken Maltby
"the people as a collective," or whatever, then the plain language of
those amendments is rendered pointless. If he wants his bizarre
collective definition to apply only to the 2nd, but none of the rest,
he has to explain why that would be, absent any support from the
Founders. Face it, he's just another anti-self defense activist,
scratching around in the dirt looking for some justification for his
position. Who cares? His side has lost the debate. Even the
Democratic Party is backing away from the "no individual right"
position. Many Democrat governors, including Clinton's buddy in New
Mexico, have gone over to the Dark Side. You'll notice that he's
starting to go ballistic. Soon he'll be typing in ALL CAPS.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Just a question, has any of these longwinded posts of
Mr. Krulick
Which merely shows how much evidence supports my position!
Post by Ken Maltby
explained just were "The People" "keep"
their arms?
universal militia vs. select militia, state vs. fed control of
the militia, who - state or feds - was going to provide arms. I
challenge you to produce ANY 2nd Amen debate material that
discusses private ownership of weapons. As the term "keep and
bear arms" MEANS militia preservation (keep arms) and service
(bear arms), "owning and using guns" is NOT what Madison was
<Snip a considerable amount of boilerplate cut and paste interpreted
180degrees out of phase.>
I posted three parts of SCOTUS decisions a moment ago. When you get
done with them, get back to us, ok?
Oh, so YOU get to "snip a considerable amount of boilerplate cut
and paste interpreted 180 degrees out of phase" which is merely
your blatant assertion that it is such, even though EACH cite is
a specific response to a specific claim or challenge, without
addressing a word of it, but YOU get to shovel three dump trucks
of some other guy's NRA-paid-for opinions, which don't
specifically address a single word I wrote (see, YOU were
obligated to go through the whole thing and find JUST the
relevant parts that dealt with JUST the parts I posted, as a
direct and specific rebuttal; just dumping the whole thing and
saying "HERE, chew on this and sort it out" is not a rebuttal of
anything, lazy boy! By that rule, I can just copy the whole
encyclopedia and say "Here, the answer is in THERE! Go find
it."!).

No, you can't have it both ways. If you won't deal with MY
cites, why should I deal with your's, particularly since YOU
haven't done ANY work to show how any particular part rebuts any
particular part of mine! Now, if you want to PAY me what Kopel
got paid for his time, I'd be glad to!

As it was, I dealt with this particular nonsense a long time
back, over two years ago, with the help of some convenient legal
scholars who analyzed his work and tore it apart! Yep, NRA Hack
Kopel just called ANY case that had even the most remote mention
of the 2nd Amen, with NO actual comment on it, and no ruling
that turned on it, and no ruling or even dicta that dealt with
it (that is, they were NOT by any conventional definition "2nd
Amen cases") a "2nd Amen Case"! And then, he just made blatant
assertions that they indeed supported an individual rights
interpretation based on HIS idiosyncratic and subjective
criteria!

When some particular cases were studied in depth, it was clear
Kopel was blowing smoke about their relevance, and overstating
the "individual" nature of any mention. "Yep, that's an
individual rights support. Yep, that one too, oh and that one,
AND that one..."

Here's from ONE of the replies:

David Yassky, Assistant Professor, Brooklyn Law School.
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Yassky2.htm

Reviewing these cases is certainly instructive, but I do not
agree with Professor Kopel about their meaning -- at least not
with the strong version of his argument. Kopel's main claim is
that it is "well-settled" that the Second Amendment confers "an
individual right."[10] Supreme Court case law simply cannot
support that claim. Rather, the few well-known cases, chiefly
Miller, that deal with the Second Amendment at some length tell
us that the Second Amendment is not an "individual right" (as
Professor Kopel is using that term), and the rest of the cases
canvassed by Professor Kopel tell us nothing at all about the
Second Amendment.

This finding itself is noteworthy, however, and it suggests a
weaker version of Kopel's argument that can be supported:
Contemporary Second Amendment doctrine, which imposes very
little restriction on efforts to regulate private possession of
firearms, has been elaborated mostly by lower federal courts,
not by the Supreme Court.[11] This fact has some important [Page
192] implications for the Second Amendment, and indeed for
constitutional interpretation generally.

I will suggest some of those implications below, but first I
want to explain my disagreement with Professor Kopel. I dispute
his conclusion about the case law for two reasons. First, his
presentation of the question to be addressed--does the Second
Amendment confer an "individual" right or a "collective"
right?--is confused. Second, I challenge his treatment of the
individual cases mentioning the Second Amendment.

...
In this latter understanding, the militia-focused approach holds
that only states have the ability to challenge federal statutes
or regulations under the Second Amendment - it turns the
militia-focused approach into an argument about standing, rather
than about the merits of the claim. This would be a very odd way
to understand the Second Amendment. All constitutional rights -
even those most obviously concerned with government structure
rather than individual freedom - ultimately "belong" to
individuals in the sense that individual citizens can sue to
vindicate them.

In I.N.S. v. Chadha, [17] the Supreme Court vindicated Jagdish
Chadha's claim that congressional action harming him violated
the bicameral passage and presentment requirements of Article I
of the Constitution [18] - does that mean that these basic
separation of powers provisions are "individual rights"? The
enumeration of powers in Article I, Section 8, and the 10th
Amendment, which reinforces that enumeration, are plainly
"federalism" provisions in the sense that they are intended to
protect a certain allocation of authority between the federal
government and the states. Yet Alfonso Lopez, when he was
convicted under the federal Gun Free School Zones Act, [19] was
of course able to challenge that statute as impermissible under
the Commerce Clause. [20] This does not mean that the Commerce
Clause or the 10th Amendment creates rights that are
"individual" in any sense other than that individuals may rely
on them in legal disputes - it certainly tells us nothing about
the scope of the right available to such individuals.

The position that only states have standing to challenge laws
under the Second Amendment, then, is a pure straw opponent. [21]
Unfortunately, it is precisely this understanding that Kopel
most often attributes to the militia-focused school.

For example, the very first case Kopel discusses is Spencer v.
Kemna, [22] in which Justice Stevens, in dissent, notes that "An
official determination that a person has committed a crime may .
. . result in tangible harms such as imprisonment [or] loss of
the right to vote or to bear arms." [23] (Like most of the cases
Kopel discusses, Spencer v. Kemna has nothing to do with the
Second Amendment or with restrictions on firearms. The case
decides whether a habeas corpus petition is mooted by the
prisoner's release. Moreover, there is no reason to think that
Justice Stevens was referring to the constitutional right to
bear arms; he was probably noting that a criminal conviction may
trigger federal and state statutory prohibitions on owning guns
- that the convict will lose a statutory "right" to own guns.
But no matter - let's assume for the sake of argument that
Stevens is referring to the Second Amendment right.)

Kopel comments on this quotation thus: "A person can only lose a
right upon conviction of a crime if a person had the right
before conviction. Hence, if an individual can lose his right
'to bear arms,' he must possess such a right." [24] Kopel
appears to believe that the excerpt from Spencer v. Kemna is
consistent only with the individual-rights approach and not with
the militia-focused approach. But that is true only if the
militia-focused approach means that only States can insist on
the vindication of Second Amendment rights. The Spencer v. Kemna
excerpt is perfectly consistent with a more sensible version of
the militia-focused approach which focuses on the scope of the
right.

Suppose, for example, a Militia-focused Scholar who believes
that the Second Amendment was intended solely to ensure the
continuation of state militia as the primary locus of military
power in the United States, and who therefore believes that the
Amendment protects only the right of a member of a state militia
to possess a gun required for service in such militia. (Not that
this second claim follows necessarily from the first; those just
happen to be the beliefs of this particular Militia-focused
Scholar.) The Spencer v. Kemna quotation could easily come from
the pen of this Militia-focused Scholar. Even though this
Militia-focused Scholar is concerned only to protect the
vitality of the militia, she of course understands that one fine
way to further this purpose is to empower individuals who are
harmed by some federal law to sue on the ground that the law
violates the Second Amendment. [Page 195]

...
In fact, Spencer and Poe are quite typical of almost all the
cases canvassed by Professor Kopel. Most of these cases mention
the Second Amendment in passing, usually along with other Bill
of Rights provisions. Some refer to the "liberty" protected by
the Amendment, providing an excuse for speculation about what
that liberty must entail. But on close analysis, these cases are
no more enlightening than Spencer or Poe. [Page 197]


Oh, I don't have time to find them all right now: it's all in
there somewhere, and I won't even cut and paste it all as you
did.

Just go to each URL below until you find it all! While you're at
it, please refute everything everyone else says in each of these
cites, that's a good lad!

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Herz1.html
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/SchwoererChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/BogusChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/DorfChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/FarberChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/FinkelmanChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/HeymanChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/SpitzerChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/UvillerAndMerkelChicago.htm
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/RakoveChicago.htm

Now, I expect you to read ALL of these!
They are ALL relevant to the topic!
I expect you to refute EACH and EVERY one of them, in detail,
point by point!
Particularly the Rowland essay on the usage of "bear arms" at:
http://www.potomac-inc.org/emerappa.html

Want more?
http://www.potomac-inc.org/yass.html
http://www.potomac-inc.org/emerappi.html
http://www.potomac-inc.org/garwills.html
http://www.potomac-inc.org/lcress.html
http://www.gunlawsuits.org/nramyths.asp
http://www.gunlawsuits.com/judiciary.asp

For a relatively balanced account of the ongoing debate:
http://www.linguafranca.com/0002/showdown.html

Thus I have dispatched your posts entirely, the same way YOU
refuted mine, but in spades, and with less bandwith used!

Now, let me know when YOU are ready to tackle MY words and MY
support evidence directly, item by item!
Gunner
And then go fuck yourself.

But I mean that in a nice way, of course.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Scout
2003-07-11 22:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment. If the
Founders meant it the way you claim, they easily could have said "the
right of the state militias to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed." But they didn't. You can spew out your twisted logic as
often as you like, but it will still be nonsense.
Yep, isn't it fun to note how he claims they used the language to precisely
denote what they meant, and he then turns around and attempts to redefine
that language to denote a whole new meaning?

But only in the 2nd, which makes for interesting conflicts when his
application of the language is applied to other instances of that language.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 03:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad amoeba
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the
Second
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a
right of
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved
that those
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Robert Sturgeon
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
The Founders had no problem using the simple word "states" when they
were referring to the states and their powers.
They had no problem using ANY of the words they used to mean
what they meant.
But you won't find "state" or "states" in the 2nd Amendment. If the
Founders meant it the way you claim, they easily could have said "the
right of the state militias to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed." But they didn't. You can spew out your twisted logic as
often as you like, but it will still be nonsense.
Yep, isn't it fun to note how he claims they used the language to precisely
denote what they meant, and he then turns around and attempts to redefine
that language to denote a whole new meaning?
Yes, I went back in time and got Bouvier to change their
definitions of what the Constitution terms meant just to tweak
YOU Snout, you lying sack o shit!
Post by mad amoeba
But only in the 2nd, which makes for interesting conflicts when his
application of the language is applied to other instances of that language.
No, lying sack Snout! AS I've said hundreds of times, the term
THE PEOPLE is consistently used in each location (except when
it's "the People of the several States" in which case it's the
enfranchised body politic of each state, rather than the
enfranchised body politic of the Nation).

No matter how many times I've clarified it, YOU just ignore MY
words and sling your straw BS version.

Nobody is fooled by your bogus straw, liar.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
David E. Young
2003-07-12 01:26:31 UTC
Permalink
"Steve Krulick" <***@krulick.com> wrote in message news:***@krulick.com...

<snip>
Post by Steve Krulick
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
<snip>

DY: Simple questions:

1) What is the Bouvier Law Dictionary definition of Bill of Rights?

2) How can the Bouvier Law Dictionary remain "the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation" when it
first appeared in the 1800's and the founding of the nation occurred in the
1700's? Explain this discrepancy if possible. If not, we understand.

Read the Founders' views on the Bill of Rights. They are not located
anywhere within Bouviers Law Dictionary, BTW.

--
David E. Young ***@chartermi.net
Editor - The Origin of the Second Amendment:
Cited over 100 times in the Emerson Decision
http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/99/99-10331-cr0.htm
Info: http://www.secondamendmentinfo.com
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 07:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David E. Young
<snip>
Post by Steve Krulick
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
<snip>
1) What is the Bouvier Law Dictionary definition of Bill of Rights?
Who cares? That was just a term of convenience, with no legal
significance.

It was 12 proposed articles of amending the Constitution.

Why not address the terms I listed and refute their validity re
the BoR?
Post by David E. Young
2) How can the Bouvier Law Dictionary remain "the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation" when it
first appeared in the 1800's and the founding of the nation occurred in the
1700's?
Because it looks back and explains usage up to the Civil War
period. How can Gibbons' "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
be the standard work about the Roman Empire when it was written
more than a thousand years after the fall, silly?

Are you this thick, DY?

If the 20th Century OED defines a word that was first used in
1500 and hasn't been used since 1700, how can the OED be the
definitive dictionary for etymological study when it deals with
words that predate it by hundreds of years? Sheesh, what a
maroon!
Post by David E. Young
Explain this discrepancy if possible. If not, we understand.
No discrepancy, and you don't understand.
Post by David E. Young
Read the Founders' views on the Bill of Rights. They are not located
anywhere within Bouviers Law Dictionary, BTW.
Which doesn't refute or overrule anything I've presented from
THAT authoritative reference source, that you refuse to address,
much less refute.

If you WERE a legal scholar, you would not be so dismissive of
it, but since you can't deal with it at all... well, we
understand.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
James Mayer
2003-07-11 04:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!
Yeah, Yeah, Steve. Repeating this blantent assertion from your
file of nifty come backs.


"The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys,
and
not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not
such only as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed,
curtailed
or broken in upon, in the smallest degree;...any law, State or
Federal,
is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this
right..."
Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. (1 Kel.) 243 (1846)

"The right of a citizen to bear arms, in lawful defence of himself or
the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the State
government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the
citizen, and 'is excepted out of the general powers of government.' A
law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, because it is
above
the law, and independent of the law-making power."
Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394 (1859).


Notice it says A CITIZEN, an individual, not some nefarious
collective.
strabo
2003-07-11 22:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by OMEGA
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Blatant assertion of bogus straw.
NOBODY with any degree of knowledge of the Const and the law is
seriously claiming this, that it's a simply a right of state
GOVERNMENTS, that is, the legislature, executive, and other
officials!
THE PEOPLE is the enfranchised body politic in its collective
political capacity, and NOT the same as their hired servants, or
what is called here "the Government"!
THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language; IF you don't know what the terms mean, they
may as well be in Chinese!
So, as the Bouvier Law Dictionary, THE 19th Century authority on
the subject of the MEANING of the TERMS used in the Const
PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary
STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.
In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary
In keeping with the recognition of linguistic ignorance and
changing perspective over time, I think a distinction should be
made.

It is misleading to suggest that the Bouvier definition of
'state' is applicable today following the sabotoge of the
Constitution by the servants of the people, to wit, the 14th,
16th, and 17th amendments.

These three amendments have usurped the power of the original
body politic within their respective states and have transferred
it to those who control the two party system.

Each political 'state' within the union of today is run by the
national policy and monopolization of the Republican and
Democratic parties. The special interests that drive these
parties determine federal and state candidates. With rare
exceptions, other candidates are effectively eliminated or barred
and voting polls are often tainted.

The people have only the privilege of legitimitizing elections.
Therefore the people are NOT the body politic of Bouvier.

The 'state' of today is best defined as the organizational
structure, policies and procedures of the state corporation
(which did not exist with Bouvier) and those elected and
unelected officials of the two parties. The constitutional
underpinnings of the original states are usually ignored
as statute, regulations and policy are used to achieve party
goals.
Post by Steve Krulick
FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary
And the 'law' so mentioned, is that which is 'lawful' or
constitutional, not just any statute or regulation that
passes for law. The 'law' also did not account for the
myriad digressive, contradictory and unconstitutional
meanderings of the federal SCOTUS.
Post by Steve Krulick
That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!
When applied to the government this phrase signifies the state.
As to the persons who compose the body politic, they take
collectively the name, of people, or nation; and individually
they are citizens, when considered in relation to their
political rights, and subjects as being submitted to the laws of
the state.
, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of
the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in
congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to
fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended
sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons
born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of
the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes
men, women, and children.
3. All natives are not citizens of the United States; the
descendants of the aborigines, and those of African origin, are
not entitled to the rights of citizens. Anterior to the adoption
of the constitution of the United States, each state had the
right to make citizens of such persons as it pleased. That
constitution does not authorize any but white persons to become
citizens of the United States; and it must therefore be presumed
that no one is a citizen who is not white. 1 Litt. R. 334; 10
Conn. R. 340; 1 Meigs, R. 331.
http://www.constitution.org/bouv/bouvier_c.htm
("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Though Black's Law dictionary is the modern bible of lawyers.
Post by Steve Krulick
So in the most narrow sense, "Citizen" is equal to "Freeman" and
the same class that defined "The People," that is, the
enfranchised voter. In the larger sense, it includes women and
kids, but not blacks or indians. Not until the Civil War was
this expanded.
Are they individuals? YES, but only in the context that DEALS
with them in their individual capacity.
Therein lies the rub. The substitution and confusion of contract
law in regards citizen relations with government, and the
federal/state interpretion of the constitution, has thoroughly
diminished the legal standing of the individual.
Post by Steve Krulick
So, THE PEOPLE CLASS is composed of FREEMEN which at any given
time is the enfranchised voter, "One who, under the constitution
and laws of the United States, has a right to vote for
representatives in congress, and other public officers, and who
is qualified to fill offices in the gift of the people." But
that still doesn't mean that a right of the CLASS is
automatically distributive to each component member.
So setting up a strawman to knock down is hardly a victory. That
they ignore the FACTS of what the terms THE PEOPLE and KEEP AND
BEAR ARMS actually meant to the authors of the Const has been
thoroughly shown to be their modus and they've ignored it
because they CAN'T refute it.
Of course with the Patriot and Homeland Security Acts in
place, the BOR is effectively rendered useless.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by OMEGA
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Good description of hoplophile disingenuousness! Rarely has ONE
group been guilty of posting more bogus hoaxes, misquotes,
out-of-context straw, and irrelevant minutiae to bolster their
untenable position than the hoplophile gang.
Unless you include the "right" you will lose credibility.
The Republicans are every bit as calloused and devious as
their supposed opposites. That the Republican policy has avoided
a direct assault on the 2nd A. is not so much to its credit
as observant of the Constitution as it is to the party's
strategy.
Post by Steve Krulick
1 and 2 was when NRA hacks like Stephen Halbrook spammed law
reviews with bogus cites and straw, twisting the original
meanings of ALL the terms in the 2nd Amen. 3 was when clone
clown pseudoscholars like Reynolds, Kopel, Malcomm, and the same
lame handful single-handedly created a cottage industry of
recycling the same bogus material in more un-peer reviewed law
journals. 4 was when the NRA posted and distributed the nonsense
at great expense to members, who spammed newspapers and
legislatures with the BS. 5 and 6 was taken care of in the 60s
when an NRA-backed movement to change state constitutions to
confuse what Madison meant by "bear arms" into an inclusive
umbrella that confused the original term in person's minds to
suggest Madison meant ANY purpose of "carrying guns" including
hunting or target practice!
strabo
2003-07-11 13:22:56 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:59:54 -0700, OMEGA
Post by OMEGA
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie
Live to lie and lie to live. Its the way of Socialists and
Communists.

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia,
nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is
understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who
determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the
people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought
to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do
is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the
peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party,
and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
Maximo Lachman
2003-07-10 16:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
It can be more easily be disproved for historical reasons. Traditionally,
militias were organised at the county level. It was the Middlesex County
militia that fought the British at Lexington & Concord, not the militia
of Massachusetts. In turn, counties like cantons were organised around
militias. 'kanton' in allemanic Switzerland was derived from a word for
the quartering of reserves (kantoniere according Sprach Brockhaus).

Thus, Switzerland was divided into county-states (except for Basel-City
which is a city-state) that are sovereign. In the U.S. counties can't
be sovereign due to the 10th amendment, but it's still the sovereign
people which ought to 'rule' over their militias, just as over the
sheriffs: i.e. instituted on a county-by-county basis. Thus, if you see
a 'state militia' it's either run by idiots or by the feds, and there
can be no question of a militia being a right at the state level. As
the 10th amendment prohibits rights at the county level, then by
default it can only be an individual right of the People, just like
freedom of association.
Maximo Lachman
2003-07-10 18:33:29 UTC
Permalink
If the "the people" phrase in the Second Amendment is a refering to the
state and not the individual then what about the other places where the
phrase is used?
Is the state and not the people supposed to elect the members of the House
(Art 1 Sec 2)?
Actually, the States are supposed to elect the president, and not the People.
Thus, Florida was justified for ignoring the popular vote, as long as they
were following state law. And if there's ever an amendment to change that,
it ought to be such that the representatives in state legislatures elect
the president, on a state-by-state basis, the way they used to elect their
DC senators.
Scout
2003-07-10 22:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maximo Lachman
If the "the people" phrase in the Second Amendment is a refering to the
state and not the individual then what about the other places where the
phrase is used?
Is the state and not the people supposed to elect the members of the House
(Art 1 Sec 2)?
Actually, the States are supposed to elect the president, and not the People.
Thus, Florida was justified for ignoring the popular vote, as long as they
were following state law.
True, but that is what bit them in the ass....they weren't following state
law with respect to that election.
No One
2003-07-11 18:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maximo Lachman
If the "the people" phrase in the Second Amendment is a refering to the
state and not the individual then what about the other places where the
phrase is used?
Is the state and not the people supposed to elect the members of the House
(Art 1 Sec 2)?
Actually, the States are supposed to elect the president, and not the People.
Thus, Florida was justified for ignoring the popular vote, as long as they
were following state law. And if there's ever an amendment to change that,
it ought to be such that the representatives in state legislatures elect
the president, on a state-by-state basis, the way they used to elect their
DC senators.
Just where in my statement did I say anything about electing the President?
Please note that I said "members of the house" AND included where you can
find the info in the USC.
James Mayer
2003-07-11 04:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maximo Lachman
Post by mad amoeba
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
It can be more easily be disproved for historical reasons. Traditionally,
militias were organised at the county level. It was the Middlesex County
militia that fought the British at Lexington & Concord, not the militia
of Massachusetts. In turn, counties like cantons were organised around
militias. 'kanton' in allemanic Switzerland was derived from a word for
the quartering of reserves (kantoniere according Sprach Brockhaus).
And who is "them"? Both of the above are either off base
slinging straw, or posting factoids irrelevant to the issue.
If the "the people" phrase in the Second Amendment is a refering to the
state and not the individual then what about the other places where the
phrase is used?
Gad, another one! Unable to think for yourself, you just repeat
the bilge of you hoplophile brethren.
And YOU keep repeating the same bilge that you have repeated over
and over again from your pages and pages of boiler plate that you post
and then demand that everyone that disagrees with you to do a line by
line analysis of your thousand line posts.
You're just slinging straw;
No, it is YOU that slings the straw and piles and piles of it to
baffle with BS what you cant dazzle with your supposed brilliance.

THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" (as in the mechanism of state govt), nor to the
individual person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
Is the state and not the people supposed to elect the members of the House
(Art 1 Sec 2)?
No, silly, it is clearly "the People of the several States" who
do that, as opposed to the state legislatures OR The People of
the UNITED States, as elections were set up on STATE basis
(there IS NO "federal" race, only state-run races for federal
offices!).
What about the 1st, 4th, 9th, 10th, and 17th amendments? Are they to be
applied only to the state?
No silly, to the People Class, just as the term meant in 1789.
When you ask them
Who is THEM again? And WHEN have YOU asked "them" anyway? I
suspect you are just bloviating.
this they usually go into 'Ralph Kramden' mode; imaada. .
.imaada. . .imaada. . .imaada. Then quickly try to change the subject.
As you are not original or creative enough to come up with any
new strawman arguments to spew, but just repeat the same one
nauseatingly repeated by equally dim minds, I will just repost
the same reply I just posted to one of your fellow hoplophiles
who also thinks he's come up with the holy grail of logic and
law, "What about all the OTHER uses of "the People" nyah, nyah,
nyah." Then, let's see how quickly YOU avoid addressing, much
less refuting, what I say.
Steve is nothing but another wannabe and lost politician that
wants to get as many people to listen to his long rants.
Maximo Lachman
2003-07-10 17:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad amoeba
"A Well Regulated Militia"
Why does the Second Amendment refer to "A well regulated militia..."?
Because "militia" doesn't mean "a group of armed men". A "militia" is a
group of people who can be drafted into public (usually military) service,
which basically means "everybody". That's why, in debates leading to
passage of the Second Amendment, you see such terms as "armed militia",
"special militia", or "organized militia": they were terms that described
particular subsets of the general militia [ref. 3].
The term "well regulated", in the eighteenth century didn't mean "limited by
a lot of regulations", which is how it sounds to modern ears. It meant
about what we mean now when we say "well trained", but in a sense that
applies to machinery as well as people ("functioning in an orderly manner"
is probably a good modern equivalent). We still use this meaning when we
refer, for example, to a "regulated power supply" for our electronic
equipment. To ensure that the militia was "well regulated", the Second
Congress passed a law that required almost all male citizens to own a gun
and ammunition, and be trained in their use. That law was still in force in
the early part of the twentieth century.
You're taking something simple and making it overly-complicated. The feds are
not empowered to draft the states' individuals, only the states' militias as
for the draft in the War of 1812. The draftees had to be able to bolster the
army "regulars" in not only an orderly, but a competent manner. If you keep
and bear arms, you will become competent at handling and using them. In any
case, that is presumed to be a 'right' and an inherent God-given one such
as self-defense. Private armies & land mines aren't natural means of self-
defense, which is why they can be outlawed. Self-defense is in any case
already covered by the 9th amendment, and that includes the right to any
arms that you yourself can keep and bear. The 2nd was only included as an
insurance policy incase the 9th didn't get ratified, or was later violated
as is so often the case.
Post by mad amoeba
last resort". The day-to-day reason for bearing arms is seen in Jefferson's
frequent urging that responsible citizens should carry arms for defense
against criminals. And make no mistake: when honest citizens carry guns,
crimes by gov't go down. If blacks in the South weren't barred by the old
laws from carrying guns, fewer of them would have been lynched by gov't
civil servants belonging to spin-off groups founded by freemasons, who
hid behind secrecy to abuse the system.
Post by mad amoeba
crime rates do go down. In the "wild west", crime and homicide rates were
a small fraction of what they are today. The "shoot out at the OK corral"
became famous overnight because of its ferocity: three men killed in a
That's not why it became famous, rather because a gov't officer was
involved in a pre-arranged duel. Kind of like the way the Hamilton duel
became famous. If they had been killed by shooting them in cold blood
that would have been murder, and the perpetrators would have had to look
over their backs from then on, even for fear of their own kind.

That shoot out seems inexplicable, unless the sheriff and/or marshall
was also involved in some sort of illegal activity, which would require
them to settle their 'turf war' differences in private.
Post by mad amoeba
single day! Jesse James and his men finally met their match in Minnesota
when (for the first time in their bank robbing career) local citizens drew
their guns and shot back when they robbed the town bank.
Scout
2003-07-10 22:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Yes, the claim it is a right of State governments is a thoroughly disprove
assertion, and those that advance it should be laughed at.

What part of "the right of the people" do you fee addresses State
governments?
Steve Krulick
2003-07-11 02:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that those
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Yes, the claim it is a right of State governments is a thoroughly disprove
assertion, and those that advance it should be laughed at.
As the strawslinging IT is, and as YOU are now slinging by
suggesting THAT represents the view of those that disagree with
YOU.
Post by Scout
What part of "the right of the people" do you fee addresses State
governments?
None, strawslinger. Snout is hilarious!

You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!

A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.

INDIVIDUALS who are members of THE CLASS known as THE PEOPLE may
invoke the right the Class retains IF the right is relevant to
the circumstance AND distributable; some rights of the CEBP ARE
distributable (like being secure from unreasonable searches),
some are not (like indicting, trying, and convicting citizens of
crimes; NO individual can do this on his own, unless delegated
to do so by THE People, e.g., a DA or judge, and no group of
individuals, e.g. a jury, unless by due process and AS reps of
THE people!)

So, when a group of enfranchised Freemen choose to ASSEMBLE as a
political convention to choose a candidate to run for office, or
to adapt a platform, congress can't interfere. The NUMBER of
persons who wish to assemble for this purpose is immaterial --
although it must be more than ONE for there to BE any assembling
going on! -- and the right protects THAT group and also the
individuals present as long as THEY are members OF the protected
class, in this case THE People, which only included enfranchised
Freemen in 1789.


WHENEVER the term-of-art "THE PEOPLE" appears in the
Constitution or BoR, or even other official documents of the
era, it means one thing only, in every case: THE PEOPLE is a
singular entity, the collective enfranchised body politic,
specifically, the CLASS of Freeman taken collectively in its
political capacity.

The only PERSONS with "political capacity" were FREEMEN, that
is, free, white males of legal age. Often this was called
FREEHOLDER and then also meant property-owning free, white males
of legal age. The term ELECTOR was often used in local or state
documents, and this may have restricted political capacity even
further, by, say, requiring residence in a location for a
certain period of time.

In 1789, women, black slaves, kids, non-citizens (such as
foreigners, Indians, prisoners, rebels/Tories, etc.) had NO
political capacity. They could not vote, and were not required
to serve on juries or in the militia. In that sense, they were
NOT a constituent part of THE PEOPLE! Thus, they had, or may
have had, the rights of all INDIVIDUALS, such as freedom of
religion or habeus corpus, but NOT the rights of FREEMEN or of
the collective FREEMAN class. OR, and this is where the BoR
comes in, any rights they MAY have claimed were not PROTECTED or
GUARANTEED by the Const!

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Yes, individuals comprise the CLASS of FREEMEN who make up THE
PEOPLE. But *A* single individual doesn't necessarily have the
rights and powers that only the collective class or subset
thereof may enjoy. Yes, individuals make up a jury, but no ONE
individual person can declare HIMSELF a legal jury of one, or
put himself ON a jury, or find someone guilty independent of
the other jurors, can he? Only the jury as a whole can do what
the jury is empowered to do. There ARE NO one-man militias, and
only THE PEOPLE collectively can organize, arm, and maintain a
militia. Congress can declare war, but NOT one Congressman on
his own. The individual that the collective is composed of may
share in the power and rights of the whole, but doesn't have ALL
the same characteristics or prerogatives of the whole. Or, even
as to collective entities, the United States may declare war,
but NOT an individual state.

A building may be made of bricks, but a brick is NOT the
building! The part is NOT the same as the whole, nor does it
have the same properties or abilities. One can meet IN a
building, but that doesn't mean one can meet in a brick, or even
a pile of bricks equal in number to the number of bricks making
up a building! If one removes one brick from the building, the
building still remains; if one removes and replaces 50 bricks,
the building remains, independent of the particular bricks
changed.

A corporation may be made up of individuals, but it has an
existence that is not dependent on the life or death, or coming
and going of any particular individual.

So, what THE PEOPLE may do as an enfranchised body politic is
NOT necessarily something any individual may do on his own.
However, an individual may share in the process, and may, as a
member of a designated class or subclass, enjoy the rights OF
that class. IF you are a homeowner, the 3rd Amen rights may be
invoked IF you feel your rights as such have been violated. Not
because YOU yourself are listed in the Const, but because YOU
fit the class protected by the collective term "homeowner."

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by Scout
1 plural : human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a
common interest
2 plural : HUMAN BEINGS, PERSONS -- often used in compounds instead of
persons
3 plural : the members of a family or kinship
4 plural : the mass of a community as distinguished from a special
class -- often used by Communists to distinguish Communists from other
people
5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common
culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common
language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a
politically organized group
6 : lower animals usually of a specified kind or situation
7 : the body of enfranchised citizens of a state
For legal/political/constitutional purposes, #7 is the SINGULAR
and relevant term; the others can go take a hike!

The LEGAL concept of THE PEOPLE is not numerical or even
geographical, but conceptual and political, and THAT definition
is: "the body of enfranchised citizens of the state." IT is a
SINGULAR, collective entity.

Citizens, or "individuals," included women, children and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense!

(BTW, it seems, according to the Bouvier Law Dictionary,
"citizen" only originally and primarily referred to the
enfranchised white male of age, which is ONLY the same class
that is called... THE PEOPLE, and from which the militia is
drawn as "the BODY of the PEOPLE"! Only in a wider and secondary
use did "citizen" include the non-enfranchised WHITES; blacks
before the War of the Rebellion did NOT have the title
"citizen"!)

The PEOPLE is not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular
entity, like a corporation, which also is made up of
individuals, yet it has perpetual existence and powers
independent and beyond the individuals comprising it.

Some rights are of individuals, and some are of the THE WHOLE
PEOPLE, just as Gallatin said:

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large or considered as individuals... It
establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."
- Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7,
1789

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large OR considered as individuals...

And the 2nd Amen is a perfect example of a right of the people
at large!

"The people," as the "people at large," the "whole body of the
people," the collective "body politic," have the populus armatus
jus militiae right to be involved in the state's (or nation's)
military function, by establishing, arming, controlling,
maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the militia ("keep arms"
as Adams meant it), and serving ("bear arms" as Madison meant
it, if qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as opposed to "regular"
professional soldiers in a standing army), drawn from the "body
of the people," and "trained to arms" and "enrolled" into an
organized, "well regulated" state militia.

"It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."

But the "right" to "own and carry guns" was never one of them.
(See Pennsylvania Test Acts)

Some rights were written for individuals AS individuals,
some rights for individuals AS members of a particular class,
distributively, other rights were collective rights of the
People at large. THAT is the nature of the BoR; there are
SEVERAL levels of rights included, and the language is the key
to WHICH classes or persons are covered.

They were originally written to include, as Gallatin said,
rights of THE People at large AND/OR individuals. Collective
rights of THE People were designed to protect the class of THE
People, the enfranchised body politic, composed of free, white,
male voters. Any reference to THE People deals with that class,
collectively. Individual members OF that class may invoke the
rights if applicable and distributive. That's how it worked in
the Mass Const and the US const followed that model.

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Some rights are individual and apply to ALL individuals or to
particular classes of individuals when applicable. Other rights
are OF the collective entity itself, INDIVISIBLE, and not based
on numbers:

Rights are collective AND individual; collective in their
formulation, individual OR collective in their exercise and
application. It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

But unless your name is engraved in the Const, you have the
rights that accrue to you as a member of the class that IS
engraved therein. Does the 6th Amen say "Joe Doe shall enjoy the
right to a speedy and public trial &c"? Of course not! But if
you are arrested, as one who qualifies as a member of the class
of persons called "accused," you have the rights. Can you
appreciate the subtle difference? Your 3rd Amen rights likewise
depend on your being a homeowner. Not ALL homeowners, not a
collective group of homeowners, but ONE OF A CLASS defined as
"persons who own a home." GET IT?

The 3rd Amen talks about the consent of "the owner" (singular),
not "the people" (plural). The 5th Amen says "no person"
(singular), not "no people" (plural). The 1st Amen talks of the
right of "the people" to assemble (obviously plural; how can a
single individual "assemble"?). The 6th Amen refers to "the
accused," "him," and "his" (singular). The 8th Amen avoids the
problem altogether. If they wanted to, the authors COULD have
written "the right of persons to..." to clearly refer to
individuals, or else written "the right to keep and bear arms,
shall not be infringed" to be as vague as the 8th. Well, they
didn't write "persons" when they could have, so there's no
reason to see an individual right. As the courts have affirmed.

In 1792, when the Militia Act was passed, WHO had the specific
right to "bear arms" ("to render military service in person" as
Madison defined it)? Did blacks have the right? Women?
15-year-olds? Non-property owners? Cripples? Feeble-minded?
Prisoners? "Injuns"? "Furreners"? Indeed, the MAJORITY of people
in the country did NOT have the right to "bear arms" in the
militia, hence they had no militia "right" to "bear arms."
Indeed, laws were passed PREVENTING some, such as blacks, from
even possessing guns, "carrying guns" being a separate action
from "bearing arms."

BUT the PEOPLE AT LARGE, the enfranchised body politic (who
WERE, for the most part, the SAME free, white, property-owning
males who could vote, serve on juries AND made up the militia)
ALWAYS had the collective right to "keep and bear arms," a term
of art first used in the 1780 Mass Const by John Adams, that
referred to the democratic organization, control, arming, and
preservation of the well-regulated state militias by the PEOPLE
AT LARGE, the WHOLE PEOPLE as the populus armatus, exercising
their jus militiae right to participate in the state's and
nation's military function, and, if qualified, to serve in
person as a citizen-soldier, as conscript duty if required, to
forestall the need to rely on a standing army, the "bane of
liberty"! The PEOPLE "keep" (keep permanently ready and maintain
in public stores, as Adams and the Articles of Confederation
meant it) and "bear" ("bear arms" meant to Madison in the 2nd
Amen draft "to render military service") in their collective
capacity. For example, a 70-year-old crippled white male could
VOTE for state reps who organized and controlled the militia;
though unable to "bear arms" in the militia personally, he COULD
participate IN the collective function, exercising HIS PART of
that collective right! A 30-year-old white women in 1792 could
do NEITHER!

The 1st Amen freedom of religion applies to EVERYONE, the 3rd
Amen to homeowners (it isn't relevant to anyone else), the 6th
Amen to those accused of a crime... NOT the same classes of
persons, with decreasing levels of inclusion. The "People" of
the 2nd Amen are ONLY those who qualified to vote or (for the
most part) serve in the militia, which WAS NOT everyone by a
long shot. Did blacks, women, 15-year-olds, non-property owners,
have 1st Amen rights? Did those same persons have the right to
serve in the militia, and thereby "bear arms," or vote
democratically (the Const also says "the People" vote for
Congress every two years; did everyone vote? NO? That's why the
People is ONLY the enfranchised body politic!) to participate in
the organization and control of the militia ("keep and bear
arms")?

Were THOSE PERSONS not individuals? Weren't many even citizens?
But they WERE NOT a part of THE PEOPLE!

Laws are written in the collective and general class sense, but
applied in specific individual and class instances IF you are in
the applicable class. IF you are in the class known as
"homeowner" you have individual 3rd Amen rights; IF you are in
the class known as "accused" you have individual 6th Amen
rights.

IF you are a member of the CLASS known as the PEOPLE, i.e., the
enfranchised body politic, YOUR 4th Amen right to be secure in
YOUR person and property is protected. THAT'S why it says THE
PEOPLE.

Which is composed of Freemen, as they belong to the class known
as the People; as Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this Amen
indicated "The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR
[emph. added] persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR
other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."
protects the CLASS, so when a member of that class is abused of
these rights, as formulated FOR the CLASS, he, as a member OF
the CLASS, can invoke the rights under the Const for INDIVIDUAL
APPLICATION.

Is that so hard to understand? Hell, even Rehnquist, in
Verdugo, suggested that foreigners, as NON-members of the CLASS
known as The People, did NOT have 4th Amen rights that belonged
TO the CLASS known as The People!

The rights are different rights in each Amen. The People is the
same The People. But some of the RIGHTS apply ONLY to the People
in their collective capacity as the enfranchised body politic
(the whole People), others to certain members of that class
taken collectively (e.g. the militia drawn from "the body of the
People), others to a specific sub-class of The People (The
People of the State), others to the Freemen who comprise The
People, taken collectively or as an individual Freeman. I drew
the distinctions for the different "the People" amendments in
the previous posts.



Second Thoughts: What the right to bear arms really means.
by Akhil Reed Amar
http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/103wha.htm

"The amendment speaks of a right of "the people" collectively
rather than a right of "persons" individually.

And it uses a distinctly military phrase: "bear arms." A deer
hunter or target shooter carries a gun but does not, strictly
speaking, bear arms. The military connotation was even more
obvious in an earlier draft of the amendment, which contained
additional language that "no one religiously scrupulous of
bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in
person." Even in the final version, note how the military phrase
"bear arms" is sandwiched between a clause that talks about the
"militia" and a clause (the Third Amendment) that regulates the
quartering of "soldiers" in times of "war" and "peace."
Likewise, state constitutions in place in 1789 consistently used
the phrase "bear arms" in military contexts and no other.

... anachronistically, libertarians read "the people" to mean
atomized private persons, each hunting in his own private Idaho,
rather than the citizenry acting collectively.

But, when the Constitution speaks of "the people" rather than
"persons," the collective connotation is primary.

"We the People" in the preamble do ordain and establish the
Constitution as public citizens meeting together in conventions
and acting in concert, not as private individuals pursuing our
respective hobbies. The only other reference to "the people" in
the Philadelphia Constitution of 1787 appears a sentence away
from the preamble, and here, too, the meaning is public and
political, not private and individualistic. Every two years,
"the people" -- that is, the voters -- elect the House.

To see the key distinction another way, recall that women in
1787 had the rights of "persons" (such as freedom to worship and
protections of privacy in their homes) but did not directly
participate in the acts of "the people" -- they did not vote in
constitutional conventions or for Congress, nor were they part
of the militia/people at the heart of the Second Amendment.

The rest of the Bill of Rights confirms this communitarian
reading. The core of the First Amendment's assembly clause,
which textually abuts the Second Amendment, is the right of "the
people" -- in essence, voters -- to "assemble" in constitutional
conventions and other political conclaves. So, too, the core
rights retained and reserved to "the people" in the Ninth and
Tenth Amendments were rights of the people collectively to
govern themselves democratically.

"The Fourth Amendment is trickier: "The right of the people to
be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against
unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

Here, the collective "people" wording is paired with more
individualistic language of "persons." And these words obviously
focus on the private domain, protecting individuals in their
private homes more than in the public square. Why, then, did the
Fourth use the words "the people" at all? Probably to highlight
the role that jurors -- acting collectively and representing the
electorate -- would play in deciding which searches were
reasonable and how much to punish government officials who
searched or seized improperly. An early draft of James Madison's
amendment protecting jury rights helps make this linkage obvious
and also resonates with the language of the Second Amendment:
"[T]he trial by jury, as one of the best securities to the
rights of the people, ought to remain inviolate." Note the
obvious echoes here -- "security" (Second Amendment), "secure"
(Fourth Amendment), and "securities" (draft amendment); "shall
not be infringed," "shall not be violated," and "ought to remain
inviolate"; and, of course, "the right of the people" in all
three places.

If we want an image of the people's militia at the Founding, we
should think first of the militia's cousin, the jury. Like the
militia, the jury was a local body countering imperial
power -- summoned by the government but standing outside it,
representing the people, collectively. Like jury service,
militia participation was both a right and a duty of qualified
voters who were regularly summoned to discharge their public
obligations. Like the jury, the militia was composed of amateurs
arrayed against, and designed to check, permanent and
professional government officials (judges and prosecutors, in
the case of the jury; a standing army in the case of the
militia). Like the jury, the militia embodied collective
political action rather than private pursuits.

Founding history confirms this. The Framers envisioned Minutemen
bearing guns, not Daniel Boone gunning bears. When we turn to
state constitutions, we consistently find arms-bearing and
militia clauses intertwined with rules governing standing
armies, troop-quartering, martial law, and civilian supremacy.
Libertarians cannot explain this clear pattern that has
everything to do with the military and nothing to do with
hunting."



Amar's overall 4th Amen explanation makes tentative sense, but
I'm not totally convinced by it, as I've said, and my latest
hypothesis would suggest a more limited right than is normally
thought, but, hey, that is the same situation with the 1st and
2nd Amens too, isn't it?

Here's something based on what I posted in 2001, before I read
Amar's piece:

"It would be awkward to have said 'right of persons to be secure
in their persons, etc.'

Look at Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this:

"The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR [emph. added]
persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR other property
from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."

Why in the plural, even collective, sense at all?

This could have been rewritten to emphasize the individual
nature of the right, for example, the NY proposal (and likewise
the VA proposal) said:

"That every Freeman has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

but it was merely shortened and tightened by Congress. There was
almost no House debate over this amendment other than a few
minor insertions, as it was late August and they were trying to
wrap up. Perhaps they were not as fastidious as Adams was in
the Mass Const for maintaining consistency of usage.

No question, this, at first, seems to us to be an INDIVIDUAL
right, but the phrasing should have been more consistent to
reflect that if it were.

Of all the amendments, THIS one varies MOST from the
recommendations of the state proposals in this regard, and
strays most from otherwise consistent usage of plural "the
people" and individual "person" or cognates (including the 1st
AND 2nd Amens, to be addressed separately).

Unless there is collective sense I'm missing."


Since then, I've read Amar's piece, and I find it less than
wholly satisfying re the 4th, but I see his point; in any case,
there is more reason to accept ONE amen, the 4th, as being able
to be seen as involving the collective people, in some
philosophical and abstract way that isn't readily apparent, and
as *I* have now further suggested, than to see at least THREE
amens, plus OTHER uses in the Const, as involving individuals
when it is so clear that the collective sense IS meant, based on
ALL the other clues and contexts.

Even the 1st Amen reference to THE People, which some harp on,
WAS originally written to refer ONLY to THE People in their
collective role! In one of the longest and most divided ongoing
House debates in 1789, the original phrase in what was to become
the 1st Amen was the flashpoint for what divided those who
sought more democratic input from those who wanted the
representatives to be more independent. The original words read:

"The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling
and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the
legislature by petitions, or remonstrances for redress of their
grievances." (Madison, June 1789)

Rep. Tucker wanted to add after "consulting for their common
good," "to instruct their representative." THIS was the nature
of the PEOPLE assembling that the Congress had in mind.

When the Mass Const is referenced against this, which Madison
surely had access to, there is less doubt that the intention was
for collective consistency; however, unlike in Mass, the US
Const was picked apart and reassembled by many authors, and the
end result may have lacked the unifying hand of one single
author or editor, as Mass did with Adams.

So, the enfranchised persons who made up THE PEOPLE, and who
COULD serve in juries/militias/legislatures/conventions, rather
than EACH "person" per se (which included women, children, and
other "second class citizens") were those Madison was primarily
concerned with protecting, since THEY were the only persons
whose right and expectation to be free from govt snooping
affected their ability to act freely and independently in the
public arena (juries/legislatures/conventions) free from fear or
intimidation. And this even comports with the NY and VA
proposals that said:

"That every FREEMAN has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

Why did this say FREEMAN (sometimes FREEHOLDER) rather than just
person/citizen/individual? FREEMAN is the ONLY singular term
that leaves out ALL the citizens/persons/individuals who are NOT
those included in the enfranchised (AND propertied!) class known
as THE PEOPLE, and so referred to in every other instance!

Perhaps Madison and the Congress WERE JUST AS consistent as
Adams was in the MA Const of 1780 in using that term, even if we
didn't notice it at first!

IF this is so, than Amar, himself, is wrong to focus on the
right of privacy as being for ANY person who was not otherwise
part of the ENFRANCHISED PEOPLE! (This NOW includes blacks and
women, of course, but not, for example, kids, which would allow
school locker searches as clearly NOT being a 4th Amen
violation.)

Doesn't it make more sense that the same guys who OK'd slavery
and that women couldn't vote were not so concerned about those
same "second-class citizens" not having various "security"
rights as well? What rights and powers did blacks, kids, and
women have that were to be "retained" by them in Amens 9 and 10?
Which of these persons were going to "consult" or "petition the
legislature" when they couldn't vote or serve? Which of these
persons were going to serve on juries or in the militia, or vote
on the maintenance of the militia, and who needed to be "secure
in their persons... papers... property" to prevent intimidation
when serving in office, on juries, or as voters? Which of these
persons voted each two years on the House races? NONE, and so,
THEY weren't PART OF THE PEOPLE the Const speaks of in EACH
case!

"Individuals" included women, children, and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense! The PEOPLE is
not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular entity, like a
corporation, which also is made up of individuals, yet it has
perpetual existence and powers independent and beyond the
individuals comprising it. As a single stockholder in AOL, could
*I* buy up the whole Time-Warner Company? NO, only the corporate
entity can do that, whether *I* agree or not.

Checks to the Boys Scouts of America can be tax-deductible, but
NOT checks made out to an individual boy scout; Congress can
declare war, but not an individual congresscritter; a jury has
the right to send someone to prison, but not an individual jury
member; THE PEOPLE can democratically decide how to organize and
control the militia's upkeep and readiness ("keep arms" as Adams
meant it), and who gets to serve in it ("bear arms" as Madison
meant it), but there are NO one-man militias and each or any
single militiaman doesn't get to unilaterally set policy or
order himself into battle.

THE PEOPLE have the right to alter or abolish their govt... but
ONLY when they are acting as THE WHOLE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE AT
LARGE, THE BODY POLITIC; individuals don't have that right, and
are correctly treated as rebels and insurrectionists when they
do.

Mr. Madison: "The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts
(Gerry), asks if the sovereignty is not with the people at
large; does he infer that the people can, in detached bodies,
contravene an act established by the whole people? My idea of
the sovereignty of the people is, that the people can change the
constitution if they please, but while the constitution exists,
they must conform themselves to its dictates. But I do not
believe that the inhabitants of any district can speak the voice
of the people, so far from it, their ideas may contradict the
sense of the whole people..."

Notice that Madison is using PEOPLE to refer to several levels
of collective "wholeness," from the "whole people," also the
"people at large," to "people... in detached bodies," to the
"inhabitants of any district." And note too, that "the
inhabitants of any district" which is a certain number of
individuals fewer than "the whole people" are not considered to
be able to "speak the voice of the people," and that even a
goodly number of individuals DO NOT equal or make up "the whole
people." Clearly, "the whole people," "the people at large,"
"the voice of the people," is NOT the same thing as EVEN plural
individuals, much less ANY particular individual!

Does "people" always mean the same thing, as some contend?
HERE, in ONE paragraph, ONE MAN, the MAN WHO WROTE THE BOR, uses
people in multiple senses: "people... in detached bodies" is
NOT "THE whole people." Can "people" (persons) as a bunch of
individuals "change the constitution"? NO, only "The whole
people" in their collective political capacity can do that.
There are things that ONLY THE PEOPLE as a whole can do, such as
"bear arms" against another nation, that each and every
individual can't do on his own.

That is why THE PEOPLE, collectively, can, and have the "right"
to, "keep and bear arms" since there ARE no one-man militias or
one-man declarations of war!

When it says THE PEOPLE, it MEANS THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised
body politic, taken collectively, just as Heyman says Adams
meant in the Mass Const:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/HeymanChicago.htm

How was the right to arms understood in post-Revolutionary
America? We can attain great insight on this point by exploring
the Massachusetts Constitution of 1780.[145] This document,
which was drafted by John Adams, contains the most carefully
written of all the state declarations of rights and constitutes
one of the best statements "of the fundamental rights of
Americans at the end of the Revolutionary period." [146] [Page
261]

In its preamble, the Massachusetts Constitution sets forth the
relationship between society and its members. The "people" or
"the body-politic" are "formed by a voluntary association of
individuals," who come together through "a social compact." What
is most remarkable is that, having distinguished between the
"people" and "the individuals who compose it," the document then
uses these terms in a consistent way throughout. This makes it
possible to discern with great clarity how the various rights
were understood, and whether they were viewed in individual or
collective terms...

In this way, the Massachusetts declaration draws a clear and
uniform distinction between the rights that belong to
individuals and those that belong to the people as a whole. This
distinction is followed so carefully that it is observed even
when both sorts of rights are implicated. Thus, Article XXIX
declares that the independence of the judiciary is essential
"for the security of the rights of the people, and of every
citizen."

Article XVII of the Massachusetts declaration reads as follows:

The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common
defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to
liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of
the legislature; and the military shall always be held in an
exact subordination to the civil authority and shall be governed
by it.

In view of the declaration's careful usage, there can be no
question that the "right to keep and bear arms" that it
recognizes is one that belongs not to private individuals but to
the people in their collective capacity. This is made even more
clear by the fact that the right is to bear arms "for the common
defence," as well as by the overall concern of the provision: to
control the military force of the community and guard against
the danger of military tyranny. [148]

I have chosen to focus on the Massachusetts Constitution because
of the precision of its language, which strongly illuminates the
nature of the rights that it contains. Yet the same distinction
[Page 263] between "individuals" (or cognate terms) and "the
people" is also generally, although not invariably, observed in
the other post-Revolutionary state declarations of rights. When
these documents recognize a right to bear arms, they always
describe it as a right of "the people," rather than of every
"individual" or "man." [149] This is strong evidence that the
right was understood in collective terms."



The "People" with the Jus Militiae right to "keep and bear arms"
(which means BOTH to maintain the upkeep OF, AND to serve IN,
the militia) was the enfranchised body politic, essentially the
same free white males who could vote, and serve in office,
juries, and the militia, the able-bodied of those who qualified
for the militia being OBLIGATED to do so as a DUTY; Congress
could not infringe on that right by making it moot by FAILING to
fulfill their constitutional duty to ARM, ORGANIZE, and
DISCIPLINE the Militia, which is what Mason and the anti-feds
were concerned about, and WHY the 2nd Amen was written and
passed.

Those individuals who qualified for "bearing arms" (serving)
within a well-regulated militia could not be deprived of owning
and storing at home THOSE weapons in service to the militia,
such weapons being inspected and "enrolled" (registered) each
year during the call up for drilling and taking a "return of
militia" to maintain a record of the inventory of men and
weapons the state had at its disposal (Militia Act of 1792).

Some rights, as that of "THE People" to keep and bear arms, are
of "the people at large," the collective jus militiae right of
"the people at large" as the "populus armatus" to be involved in
the state's (or nation's) military function, by establishing,
arming, controlling, maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the
militia, ("keeping arms" as John Adams meant it) and serving (if
qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as opposed to "regular"
professional soldiers in a standing army) drawn from "the body
of the people," and "trained to arms" and "enrolled" into an
organized, "well-regulated" state militia ("bearing arms" as
Madison meant it). (The INDIVIDUAL right Madison wanted was the
conscientious objector right that the House OK'd but the Senate
removed.)

The right "to keep and bear arms" was in the context of the
citizen soldier of the conscript militia. In the 18th century
private arms were never strictly private. The public had
a claim for public purposes. Which is why the Militia Act of
1792 directed each qualified man to enroll (i.e. register)
himself AND his MILITIA WEAPONS and ACCESSORIES each year at
muster, or be fined for failure to, and such inventory of ALL
the men and arms was reported to the state's gov and the US
prez, so that THEY would know on what resources they could call
on in case of need, including private arms!

The right is real, but it relates to the militia's necessity and
the right of the states to preserve them. The courts have no
trouble with understanding this:

"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render
possible the effectiveness of such forces [the Militias] the
declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It
must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."
(US v. Miller, SCOTUS, 1939)

"The second amendment provides that "A well regulated Militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of
the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." U.S.
Const. amend. II. Construing this language according to its
plain meaning, it seems clear that the right to bear arms is
inextricably connected to the preservation of a militia. This is
precisely the manner in which the Supreme Court interpreted the
second amendment in United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 59
S.Ct. 816, 83 L.Ed. 1206 (1939), the only Supreme Court case
specifically addressing that amendment's scope. There the Court
held that the right to keep and bear arms extends only to those
arms which are necessary to maintain a well regulated militia."
(Quilici v. Morton Grove, '82)

"The Court's understanding follows a plain reading of the
Amendment's text. The Amendment's second clause declares that
the goal is to preserve the security of "a free state;" its
first clause establishes the premise that a "well-regulated
militia" is necessary to this end. Thus it is only in
furtherance of state security that "the right of the people
to keep and bear arms" is finally proclaimed."
(Hickman v. Block, '96)


OF COURSE "THE People" have the right "to keep and bear arms"
since THAT is what the 2nd Amen SAYS. It's just that "THE
People" doesn't mean EVERYONE, taken as discreet individuals,
but rather the enfranchised body politic, collectively as the
"populus armatus," and "keep and bear arms" doesn't mean "own
and carry guns"!

And the RIGHT is the "JUS MILITIAE right" of THE PEOPLE,
collectively, as the enfranchised body politic, as the "populus
armatus," as "THE WHOLE PEOPLE," to participate in their state's
or nation's military function, by establishing, arming,
controlling, and maintaining the "upkeep and readiness" of the
militia, and serving (if qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as
opposed to "regular" professional soldiers in a standing army)
drawn from "the body of the people," and "trained to arms" and
"enrolled" into an organized, "well-regulated" state militia, as
opposed to leaving it only to professional soldiers to serve as
hired retainers of the sovereign in a military run solely BY
that sovereign.

Of course, historically and legally, this "right" preceded the
Constitution, since state militias pre-dated the Revolutionary
War! What Mason and Henry wanted was to make sure that the
pre-existing right of the states to keep and maintain their
militias was not infringed by the new federal government, and
thus the right of those qualified to serve in the militia was
not made moot by their failure to be properly and sufficiently
armed by Congress.


"Gun advocates claim that the "right of the people" to keep and
bear arms is distributive, the right of every individual taken
singly. But the militia as "the people" was always the populus
armatus, in the corporate sense (one cannot be a one-person
militia; one must be formed into groups). Thus Trenchard calls
the militia "the people" even though as we have seen, the groups
he thought of were far from universal. The militia literature
often refers to "the great body of the people" as forming the
militia, and body (corpus) is a necessarily corporate term. The
great body means "the larger portion or sector of" (OED,
"great," 8:c). This usage came from concepts like "sovereignty
is in the people." This does not mean that every individual is
his or her own sovereign. When the American people revolted
against England, there were loyalists, hold-outs, pacifists who
did not join the revolution. Yet Americans claimed that the
"whole people" rose, as Madison wrote in the Federalist, since
the connection with body makes "whole" retain its original, its
etymological sense— wholesome, hale, sound (sanus). The whole
people is the corpus sanum, what Madison calls "the people at
large." Thus "the people" form militias though not every
individual is included in them." (Historian Garry Wills)


"The WHOLE People" was the entire enfranchised body politic,
same as "the People at large" or just "THE People"; "the BODY of
the People" was that same basic class, minus those over 45 years
old, not able-bodied, or otherwise exempt from personal militia
service.

THE PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms. This refers to
SEVERAL rights.

THE COLLECTIVE or COMMUNITARIAN right is that the EBP can
democratically organize, control, arm and maintain the readiness
and upkeep of the state's militia or military function; this
right is NOT fully distributive (does any one individual "keep"
all the inventory of the WHOLE militia, or can any one
militiaman decide unilaterally to "bear arms" against the
neighboring state?).

THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT (other than the conscientious objector
right Madison sought) is that EACH qualified MEMBER of the
PEOPLE CLASS who is drawn from the "body of the PEOPLE" and thus
is IN the militia, may serve in the militia and may keep HIS
personal militia weapons at home, if desired. Also, an
individual member of the PEOPLE class, whether in the militia or
not, may participate in the COLLECTIVE right to the extent that
he may VOTE on his civilian state reps who control the militia,
and some of his officers who run the militia, or otherwise get
more directly involved in the operation of the militia on an
administrative level.

There's also the RIGHT of the militias to survive and be
preserved, and the right of the states to maintain those state
militias, and use them for state purposes, and appoint the
officers and administer the discipline.

THAT'S IT!

THE PEOPLE is the SAME THE PEOPLE as elsewhere, and here the
collective enfranchised body politic of the WHOLE NATION, as
distinguished from "the People of the several states" mentioned
earlier in the Const. THAT was the
revolutionary act of the framers, that they bypassed the state
legislatures and wrote a constitution based on a NATIONAL
PEOPLE. THAT is why THE PEOPLE here is NOT the govt, neither the
federal govt nor the state govts. But it is NOT each and every
individual person.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Kryolux Inc / 845-647-2868 / 845-647-8809
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Jeff Strickland
2003-07-11 23:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.
"The right of the people," says that all people have the right, there is no
need to make a list of names. If the right of the people was meant to be
construed as meaning the states, then making a list of states would have
been easy, there were only 13 of them at the time. Given the size of the
states and the fixed expanse of the continent, the list of states would have
been finite, even in that day when nobody had any idea how much land mass
was involved. Surely a list of 50 to 100 states is not too much to imagine.
We The People referes to each and every person, they were represented by 26
men of the Continental Congress, but "we the people" surely meant each and
every colonist. The People always means each and every person - with the
possible exception of slaves and women, but as we have discussed many times,
this was rectified long ago.

The "class" of people (as you like to say) was white males, to the exclusion
of females of any color and black men and probably native indians as well.
The People included a limited class of people, but that was rectified later
when the excluded persons were added to the class. The People has not
changed. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is the operative part
of the sentence, if the right of the states to keep and bear arms was the
intent, then that is what would have been said.

You keep maintaining that there is a class of The People, but I see no
support for that notion anywhere in the Constitution or its amendments. The
only possible exception is that The People excluded (wrongly) women and
slaves.; But, after the Civil War (you might remember this as the one where
slavery was abolished), and the 13th and 14th Amendments followed that
effectively brought the slaves into the class, and women were brought in
later as full fledged members with (I think) the 22nd where women were given
the right to vote.

Your "class" argument is bogus, or strawman if you prefer, because it can
not be uniformly applied throughout the rest of the Constitution. There is
no "class" only for the 2nd Amendment. If there IS a class, then it must be
applied to the entire Consititution.



PS
My reply is in response to the lunacy of Steve Krulick. I have chosen to not
wade through his crap unless I have to read it by reading the posts of the
other participants of this group. Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore him
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear as
though I am talking to someone else.
David Hughes
2003-07-12 00:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Steve Krulick
You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.
"The right of the people," says that all people have the right, there is no
need to make a list of names. If the right of the people was meant to be
construed as meaning the states, then making a list of states would have
been easy, there were only 13 of them at the time. Given the size of the
states and the fixed expanse of the continent, the list of states would have
been finite, even in that day when nobody had any idea how much land mass
was involved. Surely a list of 50 to 100 states is not too much to imagine.
We The People referes to each and every person, they were
represented by 26
Post by Jeff Strickland
men of the Continental Congress, but "we the people" surely meant each and
every colonist. The People always means each and every person - with the
possible exception of slaves and women, but as we have discussed many times,
this was rectified long ago.
The "class" of people (as you like to say) was white males, to the exclusion
of females of any color and black men and probably native indians as well.
Minor point: While Native American Aborigines still living in tribal
groups were generally excluded, those who had assimilated into the
Colonial cultures, becoming businessmen, tradesmen and property owners
were considered to be freeman, and eligible for the franchise if
otherwise qualified.
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 05:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Steve Krulick
You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.
"The right of the people," says that all people have the right,
That's your first error, Jeffyloon! There IS NO meaning in your
phrase "all people have the right"!

Didn't you read ANYTHING I posted on this use of THE PEOPLE?!!

The phrase is NOT "people" or "all people" -- which would mean
you are confusing it with "persons" or "all persons" which is
NOT the same thing -- but THE PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE is NOT composed of all persons! EVEN YOU admitted
this before, if I recall correctly!

So get yer head out of your ass, and get in gear before slinging
your ignorant straw.
Post by Jeff Strickland
there is no
need to make a list of names.
But it's NOT all persons. If it were, the right would be
acknowledged to ALL PERSONS, or written, like the individual
rights that have NO qualification (freedom of speech, e.g.), in
a non-restrictive form.
Post by Jeff Strickland
If the right of the people was meant to be
construed as meaning the states,
Then they would have SAID "THE STATES," or even "the People of
the several States" as they did in Article 1.

But as Bouvier points out, the terms CAN be used interchangeably
for CERTAIN definitions.
Post by Jeff Strickland
then making a list of states would have
been easy, there were only 13 of them at the time.
No, just saying THE STATES or THE SEVERAL STATES would have
sufficed.
Post by Jeff Strickland
Given the size of the
states and the fixed expanse of the continent, the list of states would have
been finite, even in that day when nobody had any idea how much land mass
was involved. Surely a list of 50 to 100 states is not too much to imagine.
But not relevant at all; laws were not written in the Const to
distinguish between states so that some needed to be on one
list, or not. Stop being silly!
Post by Jeff Strickland
We The People refers to each and every person,
No, it doesn't. That's Silly Snout's line!

Care to prove your blatant assertion with some evidence?

Nah. Why start now!

IF it did mean that, explain the part in Article I, mere lines
below the preamble that says We the People, that says:

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen
every second Year by the People of the several States, and the
Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite
for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State
Legislature.

If you are right, then EACH AND EVERY PERSON was involved in the
election of the reps. Was that so? Care to explain that?

See what an idiotic statement you can make when you just make
things up without evidence?
Post by Jeff Strickland
they were represented by 26
men of the Continental Congress, but "we the people" surely meant each and
every colonist.
Colonist? In 1789? What a maroon!

Surely, you are an idiot. And you've provided the evidence in
your own words.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The People always means each and every person
Prove it! Cite an authoritative source of the era or afterwards
that says just that.

Bouvier is such an authority and it says otherwise. YOUR mere
opinion is worth shit.

If I have to decide, do I go with Bouvier or with Jeffyloon...
who do I pick?

Guess who loses every time, Jeffyloon?

- with the
Post by Jeff Strickland
possible exception of slaves and women, but as we have discussed many times,
this was rectified long ago.
Ah hah! So women weren't persons then, eh! Nor slaves! How about
kids? Felons? Aliens? Indians? Non-property owners?

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, THE PEOPLE always means each
and every person... except WHEN it didn't!

ALWAYS, Jeffyloon. You said ALWAYS! Was 1789 NOT part of Always?

EACH and EVERY PERSON... except for those persons it didn't
include!

EACH PERSON, Jeffyloon. YOU said EACH! Were women NOT persons in
1789?

Jeffyloon, you are so full of it, and such a hypocrite for
claiming *I* change definitions, but look at this stupidity of
yours!
Post by Jeff Strickland
The "class" of people (as you like to say)
No, NOT as I say, as it is NOT 'class of "people"', but THE
PEOPLE! THE PEOPLE CLASS!

Not "people" but THE PEOPLE!

Now I know you are clueless, and will NEVER comprehend this. I
might as well be speaking Chinese with you, you are so dense!
Post by Jeff Strickland
was white males, to the exclusion
of females of any color and black men and probably native indians as well.
And kids, and aliens, and felons.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The People included a limited class of people,
No, Jeffyloon. THE PEOPLE CLASS was composed of a limited class
of PERSONS, the FREEMAN CLASS.
Post by Jeff Strickland
but that was rectified later
when the excluded persons were added to the class.
But the People Class was NEVER EACH AND EVERY PERSON as you said
earlier, was it? IF it were, then how could excluded persons be
added IF EVERY PERSON were already included.

And if women and blacks WERE excluded, but are now included,
what about kids, felons, indians, aliens?

Are THEY not persons? Were they excluded? Have they been added
since? If not, how is EACH AND EVERY PERSON included in THE
People, as you claimed?

Busted, illogical Jeffyloon! And you wonder why we laugh at you
and deride you!
Post by Jeff Strickland
The People has not
changed.
THE MEANING of THE PEOPLE has not changed! Only the makeup of
the Class's sub-classes, and the individuals who lived and died
and were replaced, have changed.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The right of the people to keep and bear arms is the operative part
of the sentence,
Nope, Jeffyloon. AS Justice Marshall said, there is no
SURPLUSAGE in the Constitution. YOU don't get to declare an
"operative part" you ahistorical, unscholarly moron. YOU can't
decide that one part of the Const is less "operative" than
another!

But, even if the first half were NOT there, what remains STILL
refers FIRST to the communitarian rights of THE PEOPLE as the
enfranchised body politic in its collective and political
capacity to democratically organize, control, maintain, and man
the state militias. Individuals are NOT mentioned; GUNS are not
mentioned; ONLY the term of art "keep and bear arms" is
mentioned, which is, in this context, ONLY about maintaining the
permanent readiness and upkeep of the militia (keep arms as John
Adams meant it) and the composition of those serving in the
militia (bear arms as Madison meant it). Combined with the
meaning of THE PEOPLE, this is clear to anyone other than
cultist hoplophiles and ignorant yahoos.
Post by Jeff Strickland
if the right of the states to keep and bear arms was the
intent,
They could have said that in a variety of ways. They said THE
PEOPLE. I have told you WHAT the term THE PEOPLE meant.

Now shut up and deal with it.
Post by Jeff Strickland
then that is what would have been said.
Straw. IF you knew what the terms meant, which I've tried to
enlighten you about, you wouldn't reveal your ignorance so
frequently like this.
Post by Jeff Strickland
You keep maintaining that there is a class of The People, but I see no
support for that notion anywhere in the Constitution or its amendments.
You NEVER see anything that doesn't conform to your opinions!
THAT'S why scholars compare documents and source material to see
what terms meant. The Bouvier Law Dictionary WAS the sourcebook
for those seeking to know WHAT the authors of the Const meant by
the terms they used. I've posted those terms. If you don't like
them, tough. Go back in time and shoot Mr. Bouvier and change it
to: The People - "Each and every person"! LOL!

The fact that in the past year you have shown yourself to be so
ignorant of ANY legal terms or processes that your last comment
only leaves me laughing that you can even say it with a straight
face.

Reread the Heyman essay to see how it works.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The
only possible exception is that The People excluded (wrongly) women and
slaves.;
Wrong to whom? Does it being "wrong" mean it didn't happen?
Should we scrap the Const and all laws written, and all
elections held, before blacks and women WERE included?

You are a hoot Jeffyloon! Yep... Each and every PERSON...
(except, maybe, ahem, those excluded, perhaps, I guess!) LOL! A
gem!
Post by Jeff Strickland
But, after the Civil War (you might remember this as the one where
slavery was abolished), and the 13th and 14th Amendments followed that
effectively brought the slaves into the class,
No, Jeffyloon, you might remember it was the 13th Amen that
abolished slavery, NOT the war itself, and it was the 15th Amen
that said voting could not be denied due to race, color or
previous servitude. Don't you even have a copy OF the Const?
Post by Jeff Strickland
and women were brought in
later as full fledged members with (I think) the 22nd where women were given
the right to vote.
And what about kids, felons, aliens, indians? Still not persons,
Jeffyloon? Still EACH AND EVERY PERSON, Jeffyloon.

Give up Jeffyloon! You are so deep in the shit of your own
illogic and contradictions you will never get out!
Post by Jeff Strickland
Your "class" argument is bogus, or strawman if you prefer,
Prove it, Jeffyloon!
Post by Jeff Strickland
because it can
not be uniformly applied throughout the rest of the Constitution.
Prove it! My claim is that EACH time the term THE PEOPLE is used
(except for the slight difference as "the People of the several
States") it means the same UNIFORM thing! I've shown how and why
and YOU have shown nada, zip, zilch.
Post by Jeff Strickland
There is
no "class" only for the 2nd Amendment. If there IS a class, then it must be
applied to the entire Consititution.
And it is, you and Snout notwithstanding. THE PEOPLE is ALWAYS
THE SAME THE PEOPLE! (Article I, being the enfranchised body
politic of the state, rather than the Nation, in its collective
and political capacity.)

There IS an argument to be made that, because the 2nd Amen
speaks of the free STATE, the People mentioned there MAY be the
PEOPLE of the state too, as the militia is a state function. But
as Bouvier shows, the terms were capable of being interchanged
to some degree anyway.
Post by Jeff Strickland
PS
My reply is in response to the lunacy of Steve Krulick.
Calling it lunacy doesn't make it so, Jeffyloon! I think you are
just whistling past the graveyard, but you certainly haven't
shown ONE example OF my "lunacy"! Why not try, and then prove
it!

I have shown examples of YOUR lunacy, repeatedly. And I didn't
dodge ANY of your remarks either!
Post by Jeff Strickland
I have chosen to not
wade through his crap
Because you are also a gutless coward who lacks the intellectual
capacity and intestinal fortitude to address, much less refute
what I've posted! Calling it crap doesn't MAKE it crap!

Simply point out what IS crap, and then prove it! Simple, eh?
Why haven't you been able to do it?

Could it be that you are just bloviating?
Post by Jeff Strickland
unless I have to read it by reading the posts of the
other participants of this group.
Sure. Only a handful have made it to MY killfile loony bin, but
in each case I've proven their lying, stupid, or gutless nature
first. You've done no such thing, so the reason must be because
you CAN'T!
Post by Jeff Strickland
Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore him
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear as
though I am talking to someone else.
Maybe you should admit you know nothing and just spew blatant
assertions that even when proven to be baseless you continue to
assert, blithely ignoring the facts and logic presented to you.

And yes, you can address ME when you challenge ME.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
dfbeck
2003-07-13 16:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Steve Krulick
You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.
"The right of the people," says that all people have the right, there is no
need to make a list of names. If the right of the people was meant to be
construed as meaning the states, then making a list of states would have
been easy, there were only 13 of them at the time. Given the size of the
states and the fixed expanse of the continent, the list of states would have
been finite, even in that day when nobody had any idea how much land mass
was involved. Surely a list of 50 to 100 states is not too much to imagine.
We The People referes to each and every person, they were represented by 26
men of the Continental Congress, but "we the people" surely meant each and
every colonist. The People always means each and every person - with the
possible exception of slaves and women, but as we have discussed many times,
this was rectified long ago.
The "class" of people (as you like to say) was white males, to the exclusion
of females of any color and black men and probably native indians as well.
The People included a limited class of people, but that was rectified later
when the excluded persons were added to the class. The People has not
changed. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is the operative part
of the sentence, if the right of the states to keep and bear arms was the
intent, then that is what would have been said.
You keep maintaining that there is a class of The People, but I see no
support for that notion anywhere in the Constitution or its amendments. The
only possible exception is that The People excluded (wrongly) women and
slaves.; But, after the Civil War (you might remember this as the one where
slavery was abolished), and the 13th and 14th Amendments followed that
effectively brought the slaves into the class, and women were brought in
later as full fledged members with (I think) the 22nd where women were given
the right to vote.
Your "class" argument is bogus, or strawman if you prefer, because it can
not be uniformly applied throughout the rest of the Constitution. There is
no "class" only for the 2nd Amendment. If there IS a class, then it must be
applied to the entire Consititution.
PS
My reply is in response to the lunacy of Steve Krulick. I have chosen to not
wade through his crap unless I have to read it by reading the posts of the
other participants of this group. Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore him
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear as
though I am talking to someone else.
Leif speaking: You're making a big mistake if you're not reading
Krulick's posts -- if you are interested in knowing what the Second
Amendment is about. His posts are long and detailed, but they're full
of good information. You should copy down two or three of the longer
ones and study them.
Oh Please! It's one thing to show that you do not have the ability to
understand the intent of the Founding Fathers or the Constitution without
someone holding your hand but you don't need to nauseate the entire group by
posing as such a blatant suckass.

I understand your need to be guided considering the ass whoopin' you
repeatedly received over at that other socialist's site, Geernst's Potowmack
, but can't you hang on to Krulick's hem in a somewhat less conspicuous
manner?
The basic idea of "the people" as a collective term is
straightforward. "The people" refers to the body of enfranchised
citizens of a state. (These citizens make up a "class of persons," not
a "class of people," and "We, the people" refers to that class of
persons) In Republican political philosophy, all power resides in the
people (the body of the enfranchised citizens) collectively. The
people have the power, acting together collectively, to approve a new
constitution or revise an existing one, the general will of the people
being determined by majority vote of the individuals who constitute
the people (or by majority vote of the people's elected
representatives). The people have the right, collectively, to
delegate powers to state governments established in accordance with
their state constitutions. And, acting through those state
governments, the people collectively have the right to pass laws,
including laws providing for militia. - Leif
Leif Rakur
2003-07-14 04:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Jeff Strickland
Post by Steve Krulick
You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.
"The right of the people," says that all people have the right, there is
no
Post by Jeff Strickland
need to make a list of names. If the right of the people was meant to be
construed as meaning the states, then making a list of states would have
been easy, there were only 13 of them at the time. Given the size of the
states and the fixed expanse of the continent, the list of states would
have
Post by Jeff Strickland
been finite, even in that day when nobody had any idea how much land
mass
Post by Jeff Strickland
was involved. Surely a list of 50 to 100 states is not too much to
imagine.
Post by Jeff Strickland
We The People referes to each and every person, they were represented by
26
Post by Jeff Strickland
men of the Continental Congress, but "we the people" surely meant each
and
Post by Jeff Strickland
every colonist. The People always means each and every person - with the
possible exception of slaves and women, but as we have discussed many
times,
Post by Jeff Strickland
this was rectified long ago.
The "class" of people (as you like to say) was white males, to the
exclusion
Post by Jeff Strickland
of females of any color and black men and probably native indians as
well.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The People included a limited class of people, but that was rectified
later
Post by Jeff Strickland
when the excluded persons were added to the class. The People has not
changed. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is the operative
part
Post by Jeff Strickland
of the sentence, if the right of the states to keep and bear arms was
the
Post by Jeff Strickland
intent, then that is what would have been said.
You keep maintaining that there is a class of The People, but I see no
support for that notion anywhere in the Constitution or its amendments.
The
Post by Jeff Strickland
only possible exception is that The People excluded (wrongly) women and
slaves.; But, after the Civil War (you might remember this as the one
where
Post by Jeff Strickland
slavery was abolished), and the 13th and 14th Amendments followed that
effectively brought the slaves into the class, and women were brought in
later as full fledged members with (I think) the 22nd where women were
given
Post by Jeff Strickland
the right to vote.
Your "class" argument is bogus, or strawman if you prefer, because it
can
Post by Jeff Strickland
not be uniformly applied throughout the rest of the Constitution. There
is
Post by Jeff Strickland
no "class" only for the 2nd Amendment. If there IS a class, then it must
be
Post by Jeff Strickland
applied to the entire Consititution.
PS
My reply is in response to the lunacy of Steve Krulick. I have chosen to
not
Post by Jeff Strickland
wade through his crap unless I have to read it by reading the posts of
the
Post by Jeff Strickland
other participants of this group. Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore
him
Post by Jeff Strickland
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear
as
Post by Jeff Strickland
though I am talking to someone else.
Leif speaking: You're making a big mistake if you're not reading
Krulick's posts -- if you are interested in knowing what the Second
Amendment is about. His posts are long and detailed, but they're full
of good information. You should copy down two or three of the longer
ones and study them.
Oh Please! It's one thing to show that you do not have the ability to
understand the intent of the Founding Fathers or the Constitution without
someone holding your hand but you don't need to nauseate the entire group by
posing as such a blatant suckass.
I understand your need to be guided considering the ass whoopin' you
repeatedly received over at that other socialist's site, Geernst's Potowmack
, but can't you hang on to Krulick's hem in a somewhat less conspicuous
manner?
Leif speaking: Hey, here's an idea, Beck. Why don't you take a
little time off and study the details of Krulick's posts. Even you
might learn something. That might create a healthier outlook and
reduce your need for writing all those crank missives to release the
built-up anger.
Post by Jeff Strickland
The basic idea of "the people" as a collective term is
straightforward. "The people" refers to the body of enfranchised
citizens of a state. (These citizens make up a "class of persons," not
a "class of people," and "We, the people" refers to that class of
persons) In Republican political philosophy, all power resides in the
people (the body of the enfranchised citizens) collectively. The
people have the power, acting together collectively, to approve a new
constitution or revise an existing one, the general will of the people
being determined by majority vote of the individuals who constitute
the people (or by majority vote of the people's elected
representatives). The people have the right, collectively, to
delegate powers to state governments established in accordance with
their state constitutions. And, acting through those state
governments, the people collectively have the right to pass laws,
including laws providing for militia. - Leif
Gunner
2003-07-13 18:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Strickland
wade through his crap unless I have to read it by reading the posts of the
other participants of this group. Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore him
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear as
though I am talking to someone else.
Leif speaking: You're making a big mistake if you're not reading
Krulick's posts -- if you are interested in knowing what the Second
Amendment is about. His posts are long and detailed, but they're full
of good information. You should copy down two or three of the longer
ones and study them.
Krulick is a nutcase. While he has his boilerplate down pat, he uses
bad case law, generally overturned or superceded as some of the basis
for his argument, totally ignoring the well documented wishes and
intent of the Founders and hundreds of other decisions contrary to his
spew.

One might as well use Dred Scott for the definition of blacks and
claim it applies to the real world.

When confronted by decisions and interpretations other than those
supporting his anti-gun agenda, he gets shrill, makes ad hominum
attacks and vents all manner of bogus rhetoric.

Kulrick should indeed be read, and then used as a shining example of
the lengths to which the hoplophobes will go in an attempt to lie,
spin and apply disinformation to the subject of RKBA.

The man is educated beyond his abilities.

Gunner
Post by Jeff Strickland
(Watch out for the anthrax!!!)
It is quite apparent that in your little brain if you didn't see it can't
possibly be true. Just because you were out getting a blowjob when the
various news cameras were showing the plans and parts from beneath the rose
garden does not mean that they didn't show those plans and parts.
lol... sure... and they were ready to whip that baby out and cook up an
A-bomb, huh? Hey, that must have been part of the weapon that was 45
minutes from attacking the US! Maybe they would have used one of their
drone aircraft that could barely fly to cross the atlantic and BOOM
there goes a city.
Or stick it on a SCUD and glass over Haifa. Or simply put it in a panel
truck, send a Sucide Bomber, Mark1 Mod 0, and drive to the center of the
target. ALLA AKBAR!!!! FLASH!
Ah, now not only do they exist, but they are minitarized. Of course,
none of this was claimed by Bush, but hey, something has to fill in for
all those L*I*E*S.
Post by Jeff Strickland
You don't even know if the story is real. Do you think it might be more
babies from incubators or troops massing on the border or attack in the
Gulf of Tonkin, etc., etc., etc.
Or crossing into Kuwait?
Surely you can't blame him for invading the brutal dictatorship of
Kuwait, do you? He asked permission from George and was granted. Kuwait
was screwing him in several ways. So what about all the other lies that
you didn't respond to? How is it that you think that Jessica Lynch and
the rose garden part of a single machine are real? Do you just take it
on faith?
Post by Jeff Strickland
Even if some crusty part that probably couldn't be used were there, it
wouldn't justify taking over the country. You're not very bright if you
consider the existence of WMD as a reason for invading. Where were you
while Reagan and Bush were giving him billions to buy weapons?
Sadams human rights violations, his failure to meet the terms of the
earlier Desert Storm Treaty etc etc are all valid reasons.
This is NOT a new war, but simply Part 2.
Woah. What are you saying? Invade Israel? By the way the US routinely
breaks treaties. The US has plenty of human rights violations as well.
Most of Saddam's were while we were arming, supplying and financing him.
Ever hear of Iraqgate? How about the BNNC? OK, I'll make it easy...
Iran/Contra.
Post by Jeff Strickland
If you are
to lazy to look for yourself you are doomed to remain a stupid little
pissant in a big mean world.
You sound like you don't too much looking. Are you saying you are a
stupid pissant?
Are you having a tantrum because you can't avoid the reality that you
were suckered? Suckered by a pathetic con? A con by people who have been
working cons their whole lives? You go ahead and holler about feces and
penises, but you are the one who got it hard. The only difference is,
you want to drag the country down with you. Thanks moron.
Spoken like a true Bush Hater ©.
Who doesn't hate Bush other than sheeple? What I said is true.
Post by Jeff Strickland
You guys really need to work on your
mantras.
Hey, pick one of the thousands of valid reasons to protest the lifetime
criminal and confabulator from any part of the politicial spectrum other
than fascists and you will find plenty of people saying things
repeatedly.
If you want idiotic mantras, look at the Jihad by Ken Starr and his
coven of scumbags and all the lies they spread, not to mention the laws
they broke. Talk about sheeple fodder.
Isn't your unwillingness to defend him and instead substituting name
calling, just the usual conservative mantra? Why doesn't anyone,
anywhere offer a defense of Bush?
Post by Jeff Strickland
Btw..about the Dems on the National Security Committee that
approved both the data and the war..have you hung them yet?
They were lied to weren't they? Shouldn't the responsibility be with the
fabricators first? Guillotine all of them for all I care.
Post by Jeff Strickland
Gunner
Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
This is a funny quote. You probably have no idea of its context or
meaning. The "liberals" that he is talking about are those nasty free
trade nutcases that wanted to repeal the "Corn laws." (think Adam Smith)
Alas, I suppose that means nothing to you. They were tariffs to protect
a few privileged people and they were opposed by what was referred to as
the 'merchant' class. You know, businessmen who want to sell products.
And of course there was some racism involved as the high cost meant that
the poor Irish who were experiencing potato problems couldn't afford it
and you know how the Irish have been thought about by the English,
right?
You should also be aware that in order to get power, Disraeli sponsored
lots of regulations on businesses and championed fine things like the
ten hour day. He was very pro-union as well.
Yeah, I know, you don't care about actual facts. You just like it that
he called liberals a bad name.
Hey, how about this Disraeli quote? "A conservative government is an
organized hypocrisy." Put that in your sig file. Anything is better than
a scumbag habitual criminal like Liddy.
"personal weapons are the ultimate decentralization of political power."
Steve Krulick
2003-07-14 02:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner
Post by Jeff Strickland
wade through his crap unless I have to read it by reading the posts of the
other participants of this group. Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore him
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear as
though I am talking to someone else.
Leif speaking: You're making a big mistake if you're not reading
Krulick's posts -- if you are interested in knowing what the Second
Amendment is about. His posts are long and detailed, but they're full
of good information. You should copy down two or three of the longer
ones and study them.
Krulick is a nutcase.
Prove it, dipstick!
Post by Gunner
While he has his boilerplate down pat,
Hey, I can't write from scratch for every ignorant yahoo that
comes down this pike! I draw from my extensive collection of bon
mots!

When ONE of you refutes anything I say, I'll be glad to take it
out of circulation!

Oh, and just saying, "That's wrong!" doesn't count as
refutation! YOUR say-so ain't enough to convince me or anyone.
Post by Gunner
he uses
bad case law,
Prove it! Show where ONE decision I cite has been reversed, or
overturned for being "bad"!

Your mere blatant assertion that it's bad case law is just YOUR
unsubstantiated opinion and worth a pot of warm piss.
Post by Gunner
generally overturned or superceded as some of the basis
for his argument,
Prove it! Give an example!
Post by Gunner
totally ignoring the well documented wishes
WISHES!!! Laws are now the expression of WISHES!!!

"Oh, I wish there were a law that put a gun in the hand of every
person in America!"

POOOFF! "I am the Genie of the lamp of Liberty! Your wish is my
command!" LOL!!!

No, loon, laws are WHAT THE WORDS IN THE LAWS MEAN!!! Don't
believe ME? Try this guy:

Robert Bork has stated that the Second Amendment operates "to
guarantee the right of states to form militia, not for
individuals to bear arms." He believes California's
assault-weapons ban is, and indeed "probably" all state gun
control measures are, constitutional. Claudia Luther, Bork Says
State Gun Laws Constitutional, L.A. Times , Mar. 15, 1989, at
B5; see also Miriam Bensimhorn, The Advocates: Point and
Counterpoint, Laurence Tribe and Robert Bork Debate the Framers'
Spacious Terms, Life , Fall 1991 (Special Issue), at 96, 98
("[T]he National Rifle Association is always arguing that the
Second Amendment determines the right to bear arms. But I think
it really is people's right to bear arms in a militia. The NRA
thinks that it protects their right to have Teflon-coated
bullets. But that's not the original understanding.").

As the foremost proponent of originalism has explained:

The search is not for subjective intention. If someone found a
letter from George Washington to Martha telling her that what he
meant by the 'power to lay taxes' was not what other people
meant, that would not change our reading of the Constitution the
slightest. Nor would the subjective intention of all the members
of the ratifying Convention alter anything. When lawmakers use
words, the law that results is what those words ordinarily mean.

Robert H. Bork, The Tempting of America 144 (1990). In fact,
Bork has explicitly rejected the gun lobby's story of the Second
Amendment.
Post by Gunner
and
intent of the Founders and hundreds of other decisions contrary to his
spew.
The "Founders" thought all sorts of things, and often
contradicted each other, violently at that, and even themselves
over time! To claim there was ONE intent is absurd; just between
feds and anti-feds was a world of difference!

Calling my evidence that shows the paucity of those misbegotten
out-of-context cites "spew" is mere handwaving. Since none of
them are directly related to the drafting and passage of the 2nd
Amen, whatever "intent" you believe you read into them is
irrelevant.
Post by Gunner
One might as well use Dred Scott for the definition of blacks and
claim it applies to the real world.
Straw. And rather ludicrous straw, at that.
Post by Gunner
When confronted by decisions and interpretations other than those
supporting his anti-gun agenda,
What "anti-gun agenda"? Do you always make things up, and jump
to conclusions?

Show any examples of "anti-gun agenda"! One will do, if you can
find even one!

Anyway, WHAT decisions? BTW, I don't see YOU addressing ANY of
what *I* said and refuting it! All I see is blatant assertions
and ad hom spew!
Post by Gunner
he gets shrill, makes ad hominum
attacks and vents all manner of bogus rhetoric.
Uh, isn't that exactly what YOU are doing right now?

Except *I* posted support evidence and you are just bloviating
fact-free shrillness, right?
Post by Gunner
Kulrick should indeed be read, and then used as a shining example of
the lengths to which the hoplophobes will go in an attempt to lie,
Point out ONE lie, and prove I'm lying! That shouldn't be so
hard for a shining example of hoplophile sagacity like YOU! LOL!
Post by Gunner
spin and apply disinformation to the subject of RKBA.
Again, just point out an example of such and prove it! We'll
wait!
Post by Gunner
The man is educated beyond his abilities.
And you are slinging straw to no effect! I see no education on
YOUR part whatsoever!
Post by Gunner
Gunner
Shooting blanks again, I see!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Steve Krulick
2003-07-14 09:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Gunner
Post by Jeff Strickland
wade through his crap unless I have to read it by reading the posts of the
other participants of this group. Maybe proper etiquette is to ignore him
altogether rather than to post replies in a manner that make it appear as
though I am talking to someone else.
Leif speaking: You're making a big mistake if you're not reading
Krulick's posts -- if you are interested in knowing what the Second
Amendment is about. His posts are long and detailed, but they're full
of good information. You should copy down two or three of the longer
ones and study them.
Krulick is a nutcase.
Prove it, dipstick!
Google search, "Steve Krulick"
The posts are self evident in their zany misinterpretation of simple
to understand wordage. A misinterpetation that can only be explained
by either an attempt to spread disinformation, or insanity.
Sorry, that's just begging the question! Your blatant assertion
of self-evidence is unproved, as is your "explanations" and your
conclusions. No points.
Gunner
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Gunner
While he has his boilerplate down pat,
Hey, I can't write from scratch for every ignorant yahoo that
comes down this pike! I draw from my extensive collection of bon
mots!
When ONE of you refutes anything I say, I'll be glad to take it
out of circulation!
Oh, and just saying, "That's wrong!" doesn't count as
refutation! YOUR say-so ain't enough to convince me or anyone.
Post by Gunner
he uses
bad case law,
Prove it! Show where ONE decision I cite has been reversed, or
overturned for being "bad"!
Your mere blatant assertion that it's bad case law is just YOUR
unsubstantiated opinion and worth a pot of warm piss.
Post by Gunner
generally overturned or superceded as some of the basis
for his argument,
Prove it! Give an example!
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/35FinalPartOne.htm
Wrong. What case was overturned on 2nd Amen grounds? He doesn't
give one.

I repeat: Show where ONE decision I cite has been reversed, or
overturned for being "bad"!

Kopel doesn't give one or prove it, so you lose.
Enjoy your crow.
Nope. I see your Kopel, and raise with Yassky!

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Yassky2.htm
<Bilge Snipped>
Defaulting argument by blatant assertion, handwave, and refusal
to address, noted.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Gunner
The man is educated beyond his abilities.
And you are slinging straw to no effect! I see no education on
YOUR part whatsoever!
You know little or nothing about me, so your blindness is not
surprising.
I go by the lack of any evidence; if you had any, you'd have
presented it.
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Gunner
Gunner
Shooting blanks again, I see!
But as long as you are shooting blanks..you are no more than an ill
wind and a nosisome stench.
Yawn. Pee Wee Hermaneutics, again. "I know you are but what am
I!" No points, Sparky.
Gunner
AS bilious and useless as two years ago!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Steve Krulick
2003-07-13 23:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Leif speaking: You're making a big mistake if you're not reading
Krulick's posts -- if you are interested in knowing what the Second
Amendment is about. His posts are long and detailed, but they're full
of good information. You should copy down two or three of the longer
ones and study them.
Should I then seek a doctorate in philosophy with a thesis on Moe. Larry,
Curly and Shemp?
-*MORT*-
No, BrainDead, you should ESAD!

I've warmly been thinking of YOU, Snout, and Lying Dana as the
Three Stooges of this loony bin (and sometimes Glenn, in the
Shemp roll)!

Sturgeon is clearly training to be Curly Joe!

Whooooo Whooooo Whooooo Whoooooo! Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Steve Krulick
2003-07-12 02:45:45 UTC
Permalink
And how come this recently posted post of mine is no longer on
the server?

Is someone trying to prevent someone from threading back to see
what Snout snipped away?
Post by mad amoeba
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Scout
Post by mad amoeba
http://www.afn.org/~afn01750/politics/2ndIndividualRight.html
Does the Second Amendment Refer to States' Rights?
Well, No.
It's amazing that some gun control zealots still claim that the Second
Amendment was intended to protect a collective right, that is, a right
of
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Scout
Post by mad amoeba
State governments. This claim has been so thoroughly disproved that
those
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Scout
Post by mad amoeba
who still promote it should simply be laughed at.
Yes, the claim it is a right of State governments is a thoroughly
disprove
Post by Steve Krulick
Post by Scout
assertion, and those that advance it should be laughed at.
As the strawslinging IT is, and as YOU are now slinging by
suggesting THAT represents the view of those that disagree with
YOU.
Look back above and read "..protects a collective right, that is, a right of
State governments.."
Clearly that IS the claim being made, and noting that is NOT a strawman
since that is the claim being made.
Snout, again you prove you are the dumbest stump on the net!

THE "claim" is NOT a cite of anyone who is MAKING the claim, you
absolute dolt; it is the STRAWMAN bogus claim being put forth by
someone who is just pulling it from thin air with NO attribution
whatsoever, no evidence that ANYONE anywhere ever made this
claim! Where are the quote marks, the date, the name?

THAT is the very model of a strawman argument!

Coming from the KING of strawslinging and bad paraphrases, this
is quite understandable!

Since Snout doesn't even KNOW what a strawman argument IS, no
wonder he can't be shamed into admitting he employs that ploy
so egregiously! Behold:

Snout is hilarious! Look as some examples of typical Snoutisms:

(They all go like this: "I see, so when you say [false
misinterpretation], you [negative of something claimed to have
been, but never was, said]"! I have a dozen of them!)
Post by mad amoeba
Post by Steve Krulick
Oh, then the law is NOT the law. Interesting.
I see, and the Nazi SS were innocent because they were only
following orders.
A red car drove by, the people were having a wonderful party.
Thus by the logic of Rich, people are red cars, because those
are the opening words.
Oh, then "the people" does NOT refer to those in the militia?
Finally, exactly what part of the Constitution would I find the Miller case?
Does the Constitution recognize a blue sky? Does that keep us from having
one?
I see, so the Constitution does NOT mean what it says?
Explain to me.....exactly what sort of "collective" was Mr. Miller?
I see, so the 4th Amendment only applies with white males?
Thus the 4th Amendment protects no individuals since it recognizes only "the
right of the people".....
the people can assembly ONLY when the ENTIRE collective does so.
I thought your assertion was that the beginning words defined who was
protected....
Oh, so the word(s) at the beginning may have NOTHING to do with who's rights
are being protected.
In short, your assertion that because "militia" is at the beginning of the
2nd means the 2nd protects only the militia, is bullshit.
Post by Scout
What part of "the right of the people" do you fee addresses State
governments?
None, strawslinger. Snout is hilarious!
You're just slinging straw; THE People refers to NEITHER "the
state" as the mechanism of state govt, nor to the individual
person (as in EACH AND EVERY PERSON). And guess
what... THIS is consistent throughout the Constitution of the US
as it was in other official documents of the time!
A collective (adjective) right is a right defined by a CLASS
with certain criterion, in this case THE People, or the
collective enfranchised body politic, or CEBP. The RIGHT is OF
that CLASS, as that's the only way to write down such a right in
one sentence WITHOUT listing every protected person by name! IN
LAW, you establish a CLASS (homeowner, the accused, voters,
slaves) and write the law for the CLASS; IF one is a member OF
that class, he can invoke the distributive rights, if they are
so defined and applicable.
INDIVIDUALS who are members of THE CLASS known as THE PEOPLE may
invoke the right the Class retains IF the right is relevant to
the circumstance AND distributable;
<Snip>
I acknowledge your confirmation that the 2nd protects an right of the
people, and individual members of that class known as the people can invoke
these rights
Again Snout snips away the DETAILS and just makes up HIS version
that ISN'T mine!

Individuals can ONLY invoke rights that ARE distributive; NOT
all rights in the 2nd Amen formula ARE distributive, nor can be!
There ARE NO one-man militias, and no one person is responsible
for the ENTIRE readiness and upkeep of the WHOLE militia.
Post by mad amoeba
to keep and bear arms and that this right shall not be
infringed.
ONLY the individual rights that MIGHT apply DO apply.

I addressed this but Snout can't be bothered to deal with it.
One more try:

THE PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms. This refers to
SEVERAL rights.

THE COLLECTIVE or COMMUNITARIAN right is that the EBP can
democratically organize, control, arm and maintain the readiness
and upkeep of the state's militia or military function; this
right is NOT fully distributive (does any one individual "keep"
all the inventory of the WHOLE militia, or can any one
militiaman decide unilaterally to "bear arms" against the
neighboring state?).

THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT (other than the conscientious objector
right Madison sought) is that EACH qualified MEMBER of the
PEOPLE CLASS who is drawn from the "body of the PEOPLE" and thus
is IN the militia, may serve in the militia and may keep HIS
personal militia weapons at home, if desired. Also, an
individual member of the PEOPLE class, whether in the militia or
not, may participate in the COLLECTIVE right to the extent that
he may VOTE on his civilian state reps who control the militia,
and some of his officers who run the militia, or otherwise get
more directly involved in the operation of the militia on an
administrative level.

There's also the RIGHT of the militias to survive and be
preserved, and the right of the states to maintain those state
militias, and use them for state purposes, and appoint the
officers and administer the discipline.


HERE'S what Snout snipped that, if he'd read it would have shown
how erroneous his last comment is. THIS is what Snout can't
address, much less refute, so he just hides his head in the sand
and hopes it will go away:

some rights of the CEBP ARE
distributable (like being secure from unreasonable searches),
some are not (like indicting, trying, and convicting citizens of
crimes; NO individual can do this on his own, unless delegated
to do so by THE People, e.g., a DA or judge, and no group of
individuals, e.g. a jury, unless by due process and AS reps of
THE people!)

So, when a group of enfranchised Freemen choose to ASSEMBLE as a
political convention to choose a candidate to run for office, or
to adapt a platform, congress can't interfere. The NUMBER of
persons who wish to assemble for this purpose is immaterial --
although it must be more than ONE for there to BE any assembling
going on! -- and the right protects THAT group and also the
individuals present as long as THEY are members OF the protected
class, in this case THE People, which only included enfranchised
Freemen in 1789.


WHENEVER the term-of-art "THE PEOPLE" appears in the
Constitution or BoR, or even other official documents of the
era, it means one thing only, in every case: THE PEOPLE is a
singular entity, the collective enfranchised body politic,
specifically, the CLASS of Freeman taken collectively in its
political capacity.

The only PERSONS with "political capacity" were FREEMEN, that
is, free, white males of legal age. Often this was called
FREEHOLDER and then also meant property-owning free, white males
of legal age. The term ELECTOR was often used in local or state
documents, and this may have restricted political capacity even
further, by, say, requiring residence in a location for a
certain period of time.

In 1789, women, black slaves, kids, non-citizens (such as
foreigners, Indians, prisoners, rebels/Tories, etc.) had NO
political capacity. They could not vote, and were not required
to serve on juries or in the militia. In that sense, they were
NOT a constituent part of THE PEOPLE! Thus, they had, or may
have had, the rights of all INDIVIDUALS, such as freedom of
religion or habeus corpus, but NOT the rights of FREEMEN or of
the collective FREEMAN class. OR, and this is where the BoR
comes in, any rights they MAY have claimed were not PROTECTED or
GUARANTEED by the Const!

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Yes, individuals comprise the CLASS of FREEMEN who make up THE
PEOPLE. But *A* single individual doesn't necessarily have the
rights and powers that only the collective class or subset
thereof may enjoy. Yes, individuals make up a jury, but no ONE
individual person can declare HIMSELF a legal jury of one, or
put himself ON a jury, or find someone guilty independent of
the other jurors, can he? Only the jury as a whole can do what
the jury is empowered to do. There ARE NO one-man militias, and
only THE PEOPLE collectively can organize, arm, and maintain a
militia. Congress can declare war, but NOT one Congressman on
his own. The individual that the collective is composed of may
share in the power and rights of the whole, but doesn't have ALL
the same characteristics or prerogatives of the whole. Or, even
as to collective entities, the United States may declare war,
but NOT an individual state.

A building may be made of bricks, but a brick is NOT the
building! The part is NOT the same as the whole, nor does it
have the same properties or abilities. One can meet IN a
building, but that doesn't mean one can meet in a brick, or even
a pile of bricks equal in number to the number of bricks making
up a building! If one removes one brick from the building, the
building still remains; if one removes and replaces 50 bricks,
the building remains, independent of the particular bricks
changed.

A corporation may be made up of individuals, but it has an
existence that is not dependent on the life or death, or coming
and going of any particular individual.

So, what THE PEOPLE may do as an enfranchised body politic is
NOT necessarily something any individual may do on his own.
However, an individual may share in the process, and may, as a
member of a designated class or subclass, enjoy the rights OF
that class. IF you are a homeowner, the 3rd Amen rights may be
invoked IF you feel your rights as such have been violated. Not
because YOU yourself are listed in the Const, but because YOU
fit the class protected by the collective term "homeowner."

THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
law and language:

PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary

STATE
This word is used in various senses. In its most enlarged sense,
it signifies a self-sufficient body of persons united together
in one community for the defence of their rights, and to do
right and justice to foreigners. In this sense, the state means
the whole people united into one body politic; (q.v.) and the
state, and the people of the state, are equivalent expressions.
1 Pet. Cond. Rep. 37 to 39; 3 Dall. 93; 2 Dall. 425; 2 Wilson's
Lect. 120; Dane's Appx. Sec. 50, p. 63 1 Story, Const. Sec. 361.

In a more limited sense, the word `state' expresses merely the
positive or actual organization of the legislative, or judicial
powers; thus the actual government of the state is designated by
the name of the state; hence the expression, the state has
passed such a law, or prohibited such an act. State also means
the section of territory occupied by a state, as the state of
Pennsylvania. - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever
he pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the
civil rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n.
164. See 6 Watts, 556: - Bouvier Legal Dictionary

That is, A Freeman can enjoy or invoke a right OF "the people
generally"! THE RIGHT is a collective right of "the people
generally" that an individual OF that class, as a Freeman, may
enjoy, if it is applicable and distributive!

("The Bouvier Law Dictionary remains the basis for the
interpretation of Law since the founding of the American nation.
In questions of law regarding legal definitions from that period
it remains the final arbiter of any disputed interpretation of
that law.")
Post by mad amoeba
1 plural : human beings making up a group or assembly or linked by a
common interest
2 plural : HUMAN BEINGS, PERSONS -- often used in compounds instead of
persons
3 plural : the members of a family or kinship
4 plural : the mass of a community as distinguished from a special
class -- often used by Communists to distinguish Communists from other
people
5 plural peoples : a body of persons that are united by a common
culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, that typically have common
language, institutions, and beliefs, and that often constitute a
politically organized group
6 : lower animals usually of a specified kind or situation
7 : the body of enfranchised citizens of a state
For legal/political/constitutional purposes, #7 is the SINGULAR
and relevant term; the others can go take a hike!

The LEGAL concept of THE PEOPLE is not numerical or even
geographical, but conceptual and political, and THAT definition
is: "the body of enfranchised citizens of the state." IT is a
SINGULAR, collective entity.

Citizens, or "individuals," included women, children and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense!

(BTW, it seems, according to the Bouvier Law Dictionary,
"citizen" only originally and primarily referred to the
enfranchised white male of age, which is ONLY the same class
that is called... THE PEOPLE, and from which the militia is
drawn as "the BODY of the PEOPLE"! Only in a wider and secondary
use did "citizen" include the non-enfranchised WHITES; blacks
before the War of the Rebellion did NOT have the title
"citizen"!)

The PEOPLE is not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular
entity, like a corporation, which also is made up of
individuals, yet it has perpetual existence and powers
independent and beyond the individuals comprising it.

Some rights are of individuals, and some are of the THE WHOLE
PEOPLE, just as Gallatin said:

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large or considered as individuals... It
establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."
- Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7,
1789

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right
of the people at large OR considered as individuals...

And the 2nd Amen is a perfect example of a right of the people
at large!

"The people," as the "people at large," the "whole body of the
people," the collective "body politic," have the populus armatus
jus militiae right to be involved in the state's (or nation's)
military function, by establishing, arming, controlling,
maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the militia ("keep arms"
as Adams meant it), and serving ("bear arms" as Madison meant
it, if qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as opposed to "regular"
professional soldiers in a standing army), drawn from the "body
of the people," and "trained to arms" and "enrolled" into an
organized, "well regulated" state militia.

"It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and
which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."

But the "right" to "own and carry guns" was never one of them.
(See Pennsylvania Test Acts)

Some rights were written for individuals AS individuals,
some rights for individuals AS members of a particular class,
distributively, other rights were collective rights of the
People at large. THAT is the nature of the BoR; there are
SEVERAL levels of rights included, and the language is the key
to WHICH classes or persons are covered.

They were originally written to include, as Gallatin said,
rights of THE People at large AND/OR individuals. Collective
rights of THE People were designed to protect the class of THE
People, the enfranchised body politic, composed of free, white,
male voters. Any reference to THE People deals with that class,
collectively. Individual members OF that class may invoke the
rights if applicable and distributive. That's how it worked in
the Mass Const and the US const followed that model.

THE PEOPLE is NOT each and every PERSON "considered as
individuals"! It is the collective enfranchised body politic as
its own corporate identity.

Some rights are individual and apply to ALL individuals or to
particular classes of individuals when applicable. Other rights
are OF the collective entity itself, INDIVISIBLE, and not based
on numbers:

Rights are collective AND individual; collective in their
formulation, individual OR collective in their exercise and
application. It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

But unless your name is engraved in the Const, you have the
rights that accrue to you as a member of the class that IS
engraved therein. Does the 6th Amen say "Joe Doe shall enjoy the
right to a speedy and public trial &c"? Of course not! But if
you are arrested, as one who qualifies as a member of the class
of persons called "accused," you have the rights. Can you
appreciate the subtle difference? Your 3rd Amen rights likewise
depend on your being a homeowner. Not ALL homeowners, not a
collective group of homeowners, but ONE OF A CLASS defined as
"persons who own a home." GET IT?

The 3rd Amen talks about the consent of "the owner" (singular),
not "the people" (plural). The 5th Amen says "no person"
(singular), not "no people" (plural). The 1st Amen talks of the
right of "the people" to assemble (obviously plural; how can a
single individual "assemble"?). The 6th Amen refers to "the
accused," "him," and "his" (singular). The 8th Amen avoids the
problem altogether. If they wanted to, the authors COULD have
written "the right of persons to..." to clearly refer to
individuals, or else written "the right to keep and bear arms,
shall not be infringed" to be as vague as the 8th. Well, they
didn't write "persons" when they could have, so there's no
reason to see an individual right. As the courts have affirmed.

In 1792, when the Militia Act was passed, WHO had the specific
right to "bear arms" ("to render military service in person" as
Madison defined it)? Did blacks have the right? Women?
15-year-olds? Non-property owners? Cripples? Feeble-minded?
Prisoners? "Injuns"? "Furreners"? Indeed, the MAJORITY of people
in the country did NOT have the right to "bear arms" in the
militia, hence they had no militia "right" to "bear arms."
Indeed, laws were passed PREVENTING some, such as blacks, from
even possessing guns, "carrying guns" being a separate action
from "bearing arms."

BUT the PEOPLE AT LARGE, the enfranchised body politic (who
WERE, for the most part, the SAME free, white, property-owning
males who could vote, serve on juries AND made up the militia)
ALWAYS had the collective right to "keep and bear arms," a term
of art first used in the 1780 Mass Const by John Adams, that
referred to the democratic organization, control, arming, and
preservation of the well-regulated state militias by the PEOPLE
AT LARGE, the WHOLE PEOPLE as the populus armatus, exercising
their jus militiae right to participate in the state's and
nation's military function, and, if qualified, to serve in
person as a citizen-soldier, as conscript duty if required, to
forestall the need to rely on a standing army, the "bane of
liberty"! The PEOPLE "keep" (keep permanently ready and maintain
in public stores, as Adams and the Articles of Confederation
meant it) and "bear" ("bear arms" meant to Madison in the 2nd
Amen draft "to render military service") in their collective
capacity. For example, a 70-year-old crippled white male could
VOTE for state reps who organized and controlled the militia;
though unable to "bear arms" in the militia personally, he COULD
participate IN the collective function, exercising HIS PART of
that collective right! A 30-year-old white women in 1792 could
do NEITHER!

The 1st Amen freedom of religion applies to EVERYONE, the 3rd
Amen to homeowners (it isn't relevant to anyone else), the 6th
Amen to those accused of a crime... NOT the same classes of
persons, with decreasing levels of inclusion. The "People" of
the 2nd Amen are ONLY those who qualified to vote or (for the
most part) serve in the militia, which WAS NOT everyone by a
long shot. Did blacks, women, 15-year-olds, non-property owners,
have 1st Amen rights? Did those same persons have the right to
serve in the militia, and thereby "bear arms," or vote
democratically (the Const also says "the People" vote for
Congress every two years; did everyone vote? NO? That's why the
People is ONLY the enfranchised body politic!) to participate in
the organization and control of the militia ("keep and bear
arms")?

Were THOSE PERSONS not individuals? Weren't many even citizens?
But they WERE NOT a part of THE PEOPLE!

Laws are written in the collective and general class sense, but
applied in specific individual and class instances IF you are in
the applicable class. IF you are in the class known as
"homeowner" you have individual 3rd Amen rights; IF you are in
the class known as "accused" you have individual 6th Amen
rights.

IF you are a member of the CLASS known as the PEOPLE, i.e., the
enfranchised body politic, YOUR 4th Amen right to be secure in
YOUR person and property is protected. THAT'S why it says THE
PEOPLE.

Which is composed of Freemen, as they belong to the class known
as the People; as Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this Amen
indicated "The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR
[emph. added] persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR
other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."
protects the CLASS, so when a member of that class is abused of
these rights, as formulated FOR the CLASS, he, as a member OF
the CLASS, can invoke the rights under the Const for INDIVIDUAL
APPLICATION.

Is that so hard to understand? Hell, even Rehnquist, in
Verdugo, suggested that foreigners, as NON-members of the CLASS
known as The People, did NOT have 4th Amen rights that belonged
TO the CLASS known as The People!

The rights are different rights in each Amen. The People is the
same The People. But some of the RIGHTS apply ONLY to the People
in their collective capacity as the enfranchised body politic
(the whole People), others to certain members of that class
taken collectively (e.g. the militia drawn from "the body of the
People), others to a specific sub-class of The People (The
People of the State), others to the Freemen who comprise The
People, taken collectively or as an individual Freeman. I drew
the distinctions for the different "the People" amendments in
the previous posts.



Second Thoughts: What the right to bear arms really means.
by Akhil Reed Amar
http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/103wha.htm

"The amendment speaks of a right of "the people" collectively
rather than a right of "persons" individually.

And it uses a distinctly military phrase: "bear arms." A deer
hunter or target shooter carries a gun but does not, strictly
speaking, bear arms. The military connotation was even more
obvious in an earlier draft of the amendment, which contained
additional language that "no one religiously scrupulous of
bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in
person." Even in the final version, note how the military phrase
"bear arms" is sandwiched between a clause that talks about the
"militia" and a clause (the Third Amendment) that regulates the
quartering of "soldiers" in times of "war" and "peace."
Likewise, state constitutions in place in 1789 consistently used
the phrase "bear arms" in military contexts and no other.

... anachronistically, libertarians read "the people" to mean
atomized private persons, each hunting in his own private Idaho,
rather than the citizenry acting collectively.

But, when the Constitution speaks of "the people" rather than
"persons," the collective connotation is primary.

"We the People" in the preamble do ordain and establish the
Constitution as public citizens meeting together in conventions
and acting in concert, not as private individuals pursuing our
respective hobbies. The only other reference to "the people" in
the Philadelphia Constitution of 1787 appears a sentence away
from the preamble, and here, too, the meaning is public and
political, not private and individualistic. Every two years,
"the people" -- that is, the voters -- elect the House.

To see the key distinction another way, recall that women in
1787 had the rights of "persons" (such as freedom to worship and
protections of privacy in their homes) but did not directly
participate in the acts of "the people" -- they did not vote in
constitutional conventions or for Congress, nor were they part
of the militia/people at the heart of the Second Amendment.

The rest of the Bill of Rights confirms this communitarian
reading. The core of the First Amendment's assembly clause,
which textually abuts the Second Amendment, is the right of "the
people" -- in essence, voters -- to "assemble" in constitutional
conventions and other political conclaves. So, too, the core
rights retained and reserved to "the people" in the Ninth and
Tenth Amendments were rights of the people collectively to
govern themselves democratically.

"The Fourth Amendment is trickier: "The right of the people to
be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against
unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

Here, the collective "people" wording is paired with more
individualistic language of "persons." And these words obviously
focus on the private domain, protecting individuals in their
private homes more than in the public square. Why, then, did the
Fourth use the words "the people" at all? Probably to highlight
the role that jurors -- acting collectively and representing the
electorate -- would play in deciding which searches were
reasonable and how much to punish government officials who
searched or seized improperly. An early draft of James Madison's
amendment protecting jury rights helps make this linkage obvious
and also resonates with the language of the Second Amendment:
"[T]he trial by jury, as one of the best securities to the
rights of the people, ought to remain inviolate." Note the
obvious echoes here -- "security" (Second Amendment), "secure"
(Fourth Amendment), and "securities" (draft amendment); "shall
not be infringed," "shall not be violated," and "ought to remain
inviolate"; and, of course, "the right of the people" in all
three places.

If we want an image of the people's militia at the Founding, we
should think first of the militia's cousin, the jury. Like the
militia, the jury was a local body countering imperial
power -- summoned by the government but standing outside it,
representing the people, collectively. Like jury service,
militia participation was both a right and a duty of qualified
voters who were regularly summoned to discharge their public
obligations. Like the jury, the militia was composed of amateurs
arrayed against, and designed to check, permanent and
professional government officials (judges and prosecutors, in
the case of the jury; a standing army in the case of the
militia). Like the jury, the militia embodied collective
political action rather than private pursuits.

Founding history confirms this. The Framers envisioned Minutemen
bearing guns, not Daniel Boone gunning bears. When we turn to
state constitutions, we consistently find arms-bearing and
militia clauses intertwined with rules governing standing
armies, troop-quartering, martial law, and civilian supremacy.
Libertarians cannot explain this clear pattern that has
everything to do with the military and nothing to do with
hunting."



Amar's overall 4th Amen explanation makes tentative sense, but
I'm not totally convinced by it, as I've said, and my latest
hypothesis would suggest a more limited right than is normally
thought, but, hey, that is the same situation with the 1st and
2nd Amens too, isn't it?

Here's something based on what I posted in 2001, before I read
Amar's piece:

"It would be awkward to have said 'right of persons to be secure
in their persons, etc.'

Look at Madison's ORIGINAL phrasing of this:

"The rights of the people to be secured in THEIR [emph. added]
persons, THEIR homes, THEIR papers, and THEIR other property
from all unreasonable searches and seizures..."

Why in the plural, even collective, sense at all?

This could have been rewritten to emphasize the individual
nature of the right, for example, the NY proposal (and likewise
the VA proposal) said:

"That every Freeman has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

but it was merely shortened and tightened by Congress. There was
almost no House debate over this amendment other than a few
minor insertions, as it was late August and they were trying to
wrap up. Perhaps they were not as fastidious as Adams was in
the Mass Const for maintaining consistency of usage.

No question, this, at first, seems to us to be an INDIVIDUAL
right, but the phrasing should have been more consistent to
reflect that if it were.

Of all the amendments, THIS one varies MOST from the
recommendations of the state proposals in this regard, and
strays most from otherwise consistent usage of plural "the
people" and individual "person" or cognates (including the 1st
AND 2nd Amens, to be addressed separately).

Unless there is collective sense I'm missing."


Since then, I've read Amar's piece, and I find it less than
wholly satisfying re the 4th, but I see his point; in any case,
there is more reason to accept ONE amen, the 4th, as being able
to be seen as involving the collective people, in some
philosophical and abstract way that isn't readily apparent, and
as *I* have now further suggested, than to see at least THREE
amens, plus OTHER uses in the Const, as involving individuals
when it is so clear that the collective sense IS meant, based on
ALL the other clues and contexts.

Even the 1st Amen reference to THE People, which some harp on,
WAS originally written to refer ONLY to THE People in their
collective role! In one of the longest and most divided ongoing
House debates in 1789, the original phrase in what was to become
the 1st Amen was the flashpoint for what divided those who
sought more democratic input from those who wanted the
representatives to be more independent. The original words read:

"The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling
and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the
legislature by petitions, or remonstrances for redress of their
grievances." (Madison, June 1789)

Rep. Tucker wanted to add after "consulting for their common
good," "to instruct their representative." THIS was the nature
of the PEOPLE assembling that the Congress had in mind.

When the Mass Const is referenced against this, which Madison
surely had access to, there is less doubt that the intention was
for collective consistency; however, unlike in Mass, the US
Const was picked apart and reassembled by many authors, and the
end result may have lacked the unifying hand of one single
author or editor, as Mass did with Adams.

So, the enfranchised persons who made up THE PEOPLE, and who
COULD serve in juries/militias/legislatures/conventions, rather
than EACH "person" per se (which included women, children, and
other "second class citizens") were those Madison was primarily
concerned with protecting, since THEY were the only persons
whose right and expectation to be free from govt snooping
affected their ability to act freely and independently in the
public arena (juries/legislatures/conventions) free from fear or
intimidation. And this even comports with the NY and VA
proposals that said:

"That every FREEMAN has a right to be secure from all
unreasonable searches and seizures of his person his papers or
his property..."

Why did this say FREEMAN (sometimes FREEHOLDER) rather than just
person/citizen/individual? FREEMAN is the ONLY singular term
that leaves out ALL the citizens/persons/individuals who are NOT
those included in the enfranchised (AND propertied!) class known
as THE PEOPLE, and so referred to in every other instance!

Perhaps Madison and the Congress WERE JUST AS consistent as
Adams was in the MA Const of 1780 in using that term, even if we
didn't notice it at first!

IF this is so, than Amar, himself, is wrong to focus on the
right of privacy as being for ANY person who was not otherwise
part of the ENFRANCHISED PEOPLE! (This NOW includes blacks and
women, of course, but not, for example, kids, which would allow
school locker searches as clearly NOT being a 4th Amen
violation.)

Doesn't it make more sense that the same guys who OK'd slavery
and that women couldn't vote were not so concerned about those
same "second-class citizens" not having various "security"
rights as well? What rights and powers did blacks, kids, and
women have that were to be "retained" by them in Amens 9 and 10?
Which of these persons were going to "consult" or "petition the
legislature" when they couldn't vote or serve? Which of these
persons were going to serve on juries or in the militia, or vote
on the maintenance of the militia, and who needed to be "secure
in their persons... papers... property" to prevent intimidation
when serving in office, on juries, or as voters? Which of these
persons voted each two years on the House races? NONE, and so,
THEY weren't PART OF THE PEOPLE the Const speaks of in EACH
case!

"Individuals" included women, children, and other
non-enfranchised persons; THE PEOPLE was ALWAYS the enfranchised
body-politic in its corporate, collective sense! The PEOPLE is
not numerical, it is conceptual; IT is a singular entity, like a
corporation, which also is made up of individuals, yet it has
perpetual existence and powers independent and beyond the
individuals comprising it. As a single stockholder in AOL, could
*I* buy up the whole Time-Warner Company? NO, only the corporate
entity can do that, whether *I* agree or not.

Checks to the Boys Scouts of America can be tax-deductible, but
NOT checks made out to an individual boy scout; Congress can
declare war, but not an individual congresscritter; a jury has
the right to send someone to prison, but not an individual jury
member; THE PEOPLE can democratically decide how to organize and
control the militia's upkeep and readiness ("keep arms" as Adams
meant it), and who gets to serve in it ("bear arms" as Madison
meant it), but there are NO one-man militias and each or any
single militiaman doesn't get to unilaterally set policy or
order himself into battle.

THE PEOPLE have the right to alter or abolish their govt... but
ONLY when they are acting as THE WHOLE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE AT
LARGE, THE BODY POLITIC; individuals don't have that right, and
are correctly treated as rebels and insurrectionists when they
do.

Mr. Madison: "The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts
(Gerry), asks if the sovereignty is not with the people at
large; does he infer that the people can, in detached bodies,
contravene an act established by the whole people? My idea of
the sovereignty of the people is, that the people can change the
constitution if they please, but while the constitution exists,
they must conform themselves to its dictates. But I do not
believe that the inhabitants of any district can speak the voice
of the people, so far from it, their ideas may contradict the
sense of the whole people..."

Notice that Madison is using PEOPLE to refer to several levels
of collective "wholeness," from the "whole people," also the
"people at large," to "people... in detached bodies," to the
"inhabitants of any district." And note too, that "the
inhabitants of any district" which is a certain number of
individuals fewer than "the whole people" are not considered to
be able to "speak the voice of the people," and that even a
goodly number of individuals DO NOT equal or make up "the whole
people." Clearly, "the whole people," "the people at large,"
"the voice of the people," is NOT the same thing as EVEN plural
individuals, much less ANY particular individual!

Does "people" always mean the same thing, as some contend?
HERE, in ONE paragraph, ONE MAN, the MAN WHO WROTE THE BOR, uses
people in multiple senses: "people... in detached bodies" is
NOT "THE whole people." Can "people" (persons) as a bunch of
individuals "change the constitution"? NO, only "The whole
people" in their collective political capacity can do that.
There are things that ONLY THE PEOPLE as a whole can do, such as
"bear arms" against another nation, that each and every
individual can't do on his own.

That is why THE PEOPLE, collectively, can, and have the "right"
to, "keep and bear arms" since there ARE no one-man militias or
one-man declarations of war!

When it says THE PEOPLE, it MEANS THE PEOPLE, the enfranchised
body politic, taken collectively, just as Heyman says Adams
meant in the Mass Const:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/HeymanChicago.htm

How was the right to arms understood in post-Revolutionary
America? We can attain great insight on this point by exploring
the Massachusetts Constitution of 1780.[145] This document,
which was drafted by John Adams, contains the most carefully
written of all the state declarations of rights and constitutes
one of the best statements "of the fundamental rights of
Americans at the end of the Revolutionary period." [146] [Page
261]

In its preamble, the Massachusetts Constitution sets forth the
relationship between society and its members. The "people" or
"the body-politic" are "formed by a voluntary association of
individuals," who come together through "a social compact." What
is most remarkable is that, having distinguished between the
"people" and "the individuals who compose it," the document then
uses these terms in a consistent way throughout. This makes it
possible to discern with great clarity how the various rights
were understood, and whether they were viewed in individual or
collective terms...

In this way, the Massachusetts declaration draws a clear and
uniform distinction between the rights that belong to
individuals and those that belong to the people as a whole. This
distinction is followed so carefully that it is observed even
when both sorts of rights are implicated. Thus, Article XXIX
declares that the independence of the judiciary is essential
"for the security of the rights of the people, and of every
citizen."

Article XVII of the Massachusetts declaration reads as follows:

The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common
defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to
liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of
the legislature; and the military shall always be held in an
exact subordination to the civil authority and shall be governed
by it.

In view of the declaration's careful usage, there can be no
question that the "right to keep and bear arms" that it
recognizes is one that belongs not to private individuals but to
the people in their collective capacity. This is made even more
clear by the fact that the right is to bear arms "for the common
defence," as well as by the overall concern of the provision: to
control the military force of the community and guard against
the danger of military tyranny. [148]

I have chosen to focus on the Massachusetts Constitution because
of the precision of its language, which strongly illuminates the
nature of the rights that it contains. Yet the same distinction
[Page 263] between "individuals" (or cognate terms) and "the
people" is also generally, although not invariably, observed in
the other post-Revolutionary state declarations of rights. When
these documents recognize a right to bear arms, they always
describe it as a right of "the people," rather than of every
"individual" or "man." [149] This is strong evidence that the
right was understood in collective terms."



The "People" with the Jus Militiae right to "keep and bear arms"
(which means BOTH to maintain the upkeep OF, AND to serve IN,
the militia) was the enfranchised body politic, essentially the
same free white males who could vote, and serve in office,
juries, and the militia, the able-bodied of those who qualified
for the militia being OBLIGATED to do so as a DUTY; Congress
could not infringe on that right by making it moot by FAILING to
fulfill their constitutional duty to ARM, ORGANIZE, and
DISCIPLINE the Militia, which is what Mason and the anti-feds
were concerned about, and WHY the 2nd Amen was written and
passed.

Those individuals who qualified for "bearing arms" (serving)
within a well-regulated militia could not be deprived of owning
and storing at home THOSE weapons in service to the militia,
such weapons being inspected and "enrolled" (registered) each
year during the call up for drilling and taking a "return of
militia" to maintain a record of the inventory of men and
weapons the state had at its disposal (Militia Act of 1792).

Some rights, as that of "THE People" to keep and bear arms, are
of "the people at large," the collective jus militiae right of
"the people at large" as the "populus armatus" to be involved in
the state's (or nation's) military function, by establishing,
arming, controlling, maintaining the upkeep and readiness of the
militia, ("keeping arms" as John Adams meant it) and serving (if
qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as opposed to "regular"
professional soldiers in a standing army) drawn from "the body
of the people," and "trained to arms" and "enrolled" into an
organized, "well-regulated" state militia ("bearing arms" as
Madison meant it). (The INDIVIDUAL right Madison wanted was the
conscientious objector right that the House OK'd but the Senate
removed.)

The right "to keep and bear arms" was in the context of the
citizen soldier of the conscript militia. In the 18th century
private arms were never strictly private. The public had
a claim for public purposes. Which is why the Militia Act of
1792 directed each qualified man to enroll (i.e. register)
himself AND his MILITIA WEAPONS and ACCESSORIES each year at
muster, or be fined for failure to, and such inventory of ALL
the men and arms was reported to the state's gov and the US
prez, so that THEY would know on what resources they could call
on in case of need, including private arms!

The right is real, but it relates to the militia's necessity and
the right of the states to preserve them. The courts have no
trouble with understanding this:

"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render
possible the effectiveness of such forces [the Militias] the
declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It
must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."
(US v. Miller, SCOTUS, 1939)

"The second amendment provides that "A well regulated Militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of
the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." U.S.
Const. amend. II. Construing this language according to its
plain meaning, it seems clear that the right to bear arms is
inextricably connected to the preservation of a militia. This is
precisely the manner in which the Supreme Court interpreted the
second amendment in United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, 59
S.Ct. 816, 83 L.Ed. 1206 (1939), the only Supreme Court case
specifically addressing that amendment's scope. There the Court
held that the right to keep and bear arms extends only to those
arms which are necessary to maintain a well regulated militia."
(Quilici v. Morton Grove, '82)

"The Court's understanding follows a plain reading of the
Amendment's text. The Amendment's second clause declares that
the goal is to preserve the security of "a free state;" its
first clause establishes the premise that a "well-regulated
militia" is necessary to this end. Thus it is only in
furtherance of state security that "the right of the people
to keep and bear arms" is finally proclaimed."
(Hickman v. Block, '96)


OF COURSE "THE People" have the right "to keep and bear arms"
since THAT is what the 2nd Amen SAYS. It's just that "THE
People" doesn't mean EVERYONE, taken as discreet individuals,
but rather the enfranchised body politic, collectively as the
"populus armatus," and "keep and bear arms" doesn't mean "own
and carry guns"!

And the RIGHT is the "JUS MILITIAE right" of THE PEOPLE,
collectively, as the enfranchised body politic, as the "populus
armatus," as "THE WHOLE PEOPLE," to participate in their state's
or nation's military function, by establishing, arming,
controlling, and maintaining the "upkeep and readiness" of the
militia, and serving (if qualified) as citizen-soldiers (as
opposed to "regular" professional soldiers in a standing army)
drawn from "the body of the people," and "trained to arms" and
"enrolled" into an organized, "well-regulated" state militia, as
opposed to leaving it only to professional soldiers to serve as
hired retainers of the sovereign in a military run solely BY
that sovereign.

Of course, historically and legally, this "right" preceded the
Constitution, since state militias pre-dated the Revolutionary
War! What Mason and Henry wanted was to make sure that the
pre-existing right of the states to keep and maintain their
militias was not infringed by the new federal government, and
thus the right of those qualified to serve in the militia was
not made moot by their failure to be properly and sufficiently
armed by Congress.


"Gun advocates claim that the "right of the people" to keep and
bear arms is distributive, the right of every individual taken
singly. But the militia as "the people" was always the populus
armatus, in the corporate sense (one cannot be a one-person
militia; one must be formed into groups). Thus Trenchard calls
the militia "the people" even though as we have seen, the groups
he thought of were far from universal. The militia literature
often refers to "the great body of the people" as forming the
militia, and body (corpus) is a necessarily corporate term. The
great body means "the larger portion or sector of" (OED,
"great," 8:c). This usage came from concepts like "sovereignty
is in the people." This does not mean that every individual is
his or her own sovereign. When the American people revolted
against England, there were loyalists, hold-outs, pacifists who
did not join the revolution. Yet Americans claimed that the
"whole people" rose, as Madison wrote in the Federalist, since
the connection with body makes "whole" retain its original, its
etymological sense— wholesome, hale, sound (sanus). The whole
people is the corpus sanum, what Madison calls "the people at
large." Thus "the people" form militias though not every
individual is included in them." (Historian Garry Wills)


"The WHOLE People" was the entire enfranchised body politic,
same as "the People at large" or just "THE People"; "the BODY of
the People" was that same basic class, minus those over 45 years
old, not able-bodied, or otherwise exempt from personal militia
service.

THE PEOPLE have the right to keep and bear arms. This refers to
SEVERAL rights.

THE COLLECTIVE or COMMUNITARIAN right is that the EBP can
democratically organize, control, arm and maintain the readiness
and upkeep of the state's militia or military function; this
right is NOT fully distributive (does any one individual "keep"
all the inventory of the WHOLE militia, or can any one
militiaman decide unilaterally to "bear arms" against the
neighboring state?).

THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT (other than the conscientious objector
right Madison sought) is that EACH qualified MEMBER of the
PEOPLE CLASS who is drawn from the "body of the PEOPLE" and thus
is IN the militia, may serve in the militia and may keep HIS
personal militia weapons at home, if desired. Also, an
individual member of the PEOPLE class, whether in the militia or
not, may participate in the COLLECTIVE right to the extent that
he may VOTE on his civilian state reps who control the militia,
and some of his officers who run the militia, or otherwise get
more directly involved in the operation of the militia on an
administrative level.

There's also the RIGHT of the militias to survive and be
preserved, and the right of the states to maintain those state
militias, and use them for state purposes, and appoint the
officers and administer the discipline.

THAT'S IT!

THE PEOPLE is the SAME THE PEOPLE as elsewhere, and here the
collective enfranchised body politic of the WHOLE NATION, as
distinguished from "the People of the several states" mentioned
earlier in the Const. THAT was the
revolutionary act of the framers, that they bypassed the state
legislatures and wrote a constitution based on a NATIONAL
PEOPLE. THAT is why THE PEOPLE here is NOT the govt, neither the
federal govt nor the state govts. But it is NOT each and every
individual person.
--
Steven Krulick / ***@krulick.com
Kryolux Inc / 845-647-2868 / 845-647-8809
Ellenville NY 12428-130727
Two Bears
2003-07-14 02:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Krulick
Yes, individuals comprise the CLASS of FREEMEN who make up THE
PEOPLE. But *A* single individual doesn't necessarily have the
rights and powers that only the collective class or subset
thereof may enjoy. Yes, individuals make up a jury, but no ONE
individual person can declare HIMSELF a legal jury of one, or
BUT, each individual jurist has the right to vote. And this right to
vote as a jurist puts him/her on the jury. Just like his/her
individual right to keep and bear arms can put him/her on a well
regulated militia.
Post by Steve Krulick
put himself ON a jury, or find someone guilty independent of
the other jurors, can he? Only the jury as a whole can do what
the jury is empowered to do. There ARE NO one-man militias, and
only THE PEOPLE collectively can organize, arm, and maintain a
militia. Congress can declare war, but NOT one Congressman on
One person can arm a militia: If I live in a neighborhood of unarmed
yuppies and something terrible happens which causes them to want to be
armed, I'll be visited by them requesting arms. Especially if I am a
FFL around the time of say...9/11 2001.
Post by Steve Krulick
his own. The individual that the collective is composed of may
share in the power and rights of the whole, but doesn't have ALL
the same characteristics or prerogatives of the whole.
But your oft quoted Bouvier dissagrees with you there Steve:
Bouvier:
FREEMAN. One who is in the enjoyment of the right to do whatever he
pleases, not forbidden by law. One in the possession of the civil
rights enjoyed by, the people generally. 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 164. See 6
Watts, 556:

So your beloved Bouvier says that "...**O N E** in the possession
ofthe civil rights enjoyed (not invoked) by, THE PEOPLE generally"
which irrefutably reverse to ONE or A person enjoying an individual
right indivdually which is in existence because of social, collective
instrument. Just because a right may have no relevance to a person who
would be totally alone (like on a deserted island), this does not mean
that the same right has to apply to a group.

Or, even
Post by Steve Krulick
as to collective entities, the United States may declare war,
but NOT an individual state.
Does the US Constitution state that the US has the "right" or the
"power" to declare war?
Post by Steve Krulick
A building may be made of bricks, but a brick is NOT the
building! The part is NOT the same as the whole, nor does it
have the same properties or abilities. One can meet IN a
building, but that doesn't mean one can meet in a brick, or even
a pile of bricks equal in number to the number of bricks making
up a building! If one removes one brick from the building, the
building still remains; if one removes and replaces 50 bricks,
the building remains, independent of the particular bricks
changed.
So true...and I do believe you are almost there:

*Well made materials being necessary to the integrity of a strong
buildng, the right of the brick to be tempered shall not be infringed*

Each brick needs to be adequately fired for the tempering process. If
the brick is not tempered correctly, water can pentetrate, freeze and
destroy the brick. Nothing can be built with one brick but that does
not mean that each brick cannot be tempered.
Post by Steve Krulick
A corporation may be made up of individuals, but it has an
existence that is not dependent on the life or death, or coming
and going of any particular individual.
Yep, and this does not meant that each individual does not have a
right to his or her each individual right to an education.
Post by Steve Krulick
So, what THE PEOPLE may do as an enfranchised body politic is
NOT necessarily something any individual may do on his own.
However, an individual may share in the process, and may, as a
member of a designated class or subclass, enjoy the rights OF
that class. IF you are a homeowner, the 3rd Amen rights may be
invoked IF you feel your rights as such have been violated. Not
because YOU yourself are listed in the Const, but because YOU
fit the class protected by the collective term "homeowner."
THE PEOPLE is a legal term of art that has a specific meaning in
Like ..... THE BRICK.
Post by Steve Krulick
PEOPLE
A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in
its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet.
S. C. Rep. 467. - Bouvier Law Dictionary
But Bouvier is defining "PEOPLE" here, and you are attributing
definitions to a
term of art. "PEOPLE" is a word. "The People" is your so called *term
of art*...what does Bullshitier say about terms of art?

....That's enough for now, I've gotta show up for life tomorrow.
Morton Davis
2003-07-14 02:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Two Bears
Post by Steve Krulick
Yes, individuals comprise the CLASS of FREEMEN who make up THE
PEOPLE. But *A* single individual doesn't necessarily have the
rights and powers that only the collective class or subset
thereof may enjoy. Yes, individuals make up a jury, but no ONE
individual person can declare HIMSELF a legal jury of one, or
BUT, each individual jurist has the right to vote. And this right to
vote as a jurist puts him/her on the jury. Just like his/her
individual right to keep and bear arms can put him/her on a well
regulated militia.
Post by Steve Krulick
put himself ON a jury, or find someone guilty independent of
the other jurors, can he? Only the jury as a whole can do what
the jury is empowered to do. There ARE NO one-man militias, and
only THE PEOPLE collectively can organize, arm, and maintain a
militia. Congress can declare war, but NOT one Congressman on
One person can arm a militia: If I live in a neighborhood of unarmed
yuppies and something terrible happens which causes them to want to be
armed, I'll be visited by them requesting arms. Especially if I am a
FFL around the time of say...9/11 2001.
Post by Steve Krulick
his own. The individual that the collective is composed of may
share in the power and rights of the whole, but doesn't have ALL
the same characteristics or prerogatives of the whole.
Steve has YET to show how Bouvier has ANY say in how America does things.

-*MORT*-
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