Sat-phones in the deep forest

[Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer]

Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks & Scats;
The Log Cabin: An Adventure; The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival
Handbook; The Snowshoe Handbook; The Complete Tracker; Practical
Outdoor Projects; Made for the Outdoors; Practical Outdoor Survival.
Survival Instructor/Wilderness Kayaking Guide, Timberwolf Wilderness
Adventures, Paradise, MI [phone]

[Wolfgang]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?

Wolfgang

[Tom Beno]

Post by Wolfgang

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

-----
The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?
Wolfgang
---------------

Yeah, you be go ta hell.

A constructive, helpful and informative post, and that's your response? You may
have had a use in society if you'd have been born with a brain instead of a
double dose of mouth.

[Wolfgang]

Post by Tom Beno

Post by Wolfgang
The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?
Wolfgang
---------------

Yeah, you be go ta hell.
A constructive, helpful and informative post, and that's your response? You may
have had a use in society if you'd have been born with a brain instead of a
double dose of mouth.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan ceased to exist about forty years ago due to
a massive implosion caused by a black hole housed in a skull known only as
(and known to only a few in the upper upper echelons of the intelligence
community) "article TB".

Why won't they let us see the videos?

Wolfgang
who has some ideas......but can't talk here......they could be watching.
:(

[Tom Beno]

Post by Wolfgang
Why won't they let us see the videos?
-----------

Wouldn't matter, 'cuz your big mouth is covering your eyeballs.
===========================

Post by Wolfgang
Wolfgang
who has some ideas......but can't talk here......they could be watching.
:(
------------

Could be. Some folks (contrary to yourself) actually look, read, and learn
instead of just lippin'.

[Wolfgang]

Post by Tom Beno

Post by Wolfgang
Why won't they let us see the videos?
-----------

Wouldn't matter, 'cuz your big mouth is covering your eyeballs.
===========================

Post by Wolfgang
Wolfgang
who has some ideas......but can't talk here......they could be watching.
:(
------------

Could be. Some folks (contrary to yourself) actually look, read, and learn
instead of just lippin'.

That's pretty funny. :)

Wolfgang

[Gunner]

Post by Wolfgang

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?
Wolfgang

Out in Lake Linden? Been there more than once. Family had a charter
member wall plage at the Onagaming Club, were charter members of the
Yacht Club.

Last I heard, the F. Wieber & Son/Swift Meats signs could still be
seen on the sides of some of the upper stories in Houghton. Grampa
had the distributorship for the entire UP plus on into Iron Mountain,
Hurley and so forth.

Ever done the Hurely Hurl? Had one drink in every bar on one side fo
the street, and see how far you could make coming back the other way,
without hurling?

Fuck me..Im having a pasty jones moment....sigh....

Gunner, who used to spend his summers at the Copper Harbor
Lighthouse....uncle was lighthouse master.

Michigan Tech by Heck!



Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[Old Yooper]

Post by Gunner

Post by Wolfgang

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?
Wolfgang

Out in Lake Linden? Been there more than once. Family had a charter
member wall plage at the Onagaming Club, were charter members of the
Yacht Club.
Last I heard, the F. Wieber & Son/Swift Meats signs could still be
seen on the sides of some of the upper stories in Houghton. Grampa
had the distributorship for the entire UP plus on into Iron Mountain,
Hurley and so forth.
Ever done the Hurely Hurl? Had one drink in every bar on one side fo
the street, and see how far you could make coming back the other way,
without hurling?
Fuck me..Im having a pasty jones moment....sigh....
Gunner, who used to spend his summers at the Copper Harbor
Lighthouse....uncle was lighthouse master.
Michigan Tech by Heck!

I was at dat place when it were MCM. So they tore down all the old buildings
now. The only thing that sucks mote than that is the hockey team.

da Old Yooper

Post by Gunner
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[Old Yooper]

Post by Old Yooper

Post by Gunner

Post by Wolfgang

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?
Wolfgang

Out in Lake Linden? Been there more than once. Family had a charter
member wall plage at the Onagaming Club, were charter members of the
Yacht Club.
Last I heard, the F. Wieber & Son/Swift Meats signs could still be
seen on the sides of some of the upper stories in Houghton. Grampa
had the distributorship for the entire UP plus on into Iron Mountain,
Hurley and so forth.
Ever done the Hurely Hurl? Had one drink in every bar on one side fo
the street, and see how far you could make coming back the other way,
without hurling?
Fuck me..Im having a pasty jones moment....sigh....
Gunner, who used to spend his summers at the Copper Harbor
Lighthouse....uncle was lighthouse master.
Michigan Tech by Heck!

I was at dat place when it were MCM. So they tore down all the old
buildings now. The only thing that sucks mote than that is the hockey
team.

Michigan School of Mining >>> Michigan College of Mines >>> Michigan College
of Mining and Technology >>> Michigan Technological University

That last name (MTU) a bit unfortunate. Gave the drones at Northern Michigan
University a chance to call it "Empty U", especially after their hockey team
got good enough to regularly dump the Huskies... :-(

da Old Yooper

Post by Old Yooper
da Old Yooper

Post by Gunner
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[Gunner]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:48:31 -0500, "Old Yooper"

Post by Old Yooper

Post by Old Yooper

Post by Gunner
Michigan Tech by Heck!

I was at dat place when it were MCM. So they tore down all the old
buildings now. The only thing that sucks mote than that is the hockey
team.

Michigan School of Mining >>> Michigan College of Mines >>> Michigan College
of Mining and Technology >>> Michigan Technological University
That last name (MTU) a bit unfortunate. Gave the drones at Northern Michigan
University a chance to call it "Empty U", especially after their hockey team
got good enough to regularly dump the Huskies... :-(
da Old Yooper

Dont forget Soumi College <G>

Gunner

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[Old Yooper]

Post by Gunner
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:48:31 -0500, "Old Yooper"

Post by Old Yooper

Post by Old Yooper

Post by Gunner
Michigan Tech by Heck!

I was at dat place when it were MCM. So they tore down all the old
buildings now. The only thing that sucks mote than that is the hockey
team.

Michigan School of Mining >>> Michigan College of Mines >>> Michigan College
of Mining and Technology >>> Michigan Technological University
That last name (MTU) a bit unfortunate. Gave the drones at Northern Michigan
University a chance to call it "Empty U", especially after their hockey team
got good enough to regularly dump the Huskies... :-(
da Old Yooper

Dont forget Soumi College <G>

Not anymore. Soumi College, founded in 1896 in Hancock, has changed it's
name to Finlandia University. Bills itself as Michigan's only private
University. Locally it's called "Soumalainen You, eh!"

da Old Yooper

Post by Gunner
Gunner
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[Old Yooper]

Post by Gunner

Post by Wolfgang

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan, huh? Well, I be go ta hell. Spend much
time at the Gay Bar?
Wolfgang

Out in Lake Linden? Been there more than once. Family had a charter
member wall plage at the Onagaming Club, were charter members of the
Yacht Club.

Onagaming. Ate there about 20 years ago when a member invited me to a
meeting. Good steak. Haven't been back since then. The sands is getting
built up too much and ruining the view. There is a paved walking path that
you can take all the way from the old mill site west of Houghton all the way
through town to nearly the Onagaming Club.

Post by Gunner
Last I heard, the F. Wieber & Son/Swift Meats signs could still be
seen on the sides of some of the upper stories in Houghton. Grampa
had the distributorship for the entire UP plus on into Iron Mountain,
Hurley and so forth.

Still there, but things are slowly changing.

Post by Gunner
Ever done the Hurely Hurl? Had one drink in every bar on one side fo
the street, and see how far you could make coming back the other way,
without hurling?

Still can be done, but a lot less bars than there used to be. Only two
stripper joints left now, down by the overpass near the Michigan border, on
Silver Street.

Post by Gunner
Fuck me..Im having a pasty jones moment....sigh....

You can mail order one off the net. Go to pasty.com... ;-)

Post by Gunner
Gunner, who used to spend his summers at the Copper Harbor
Lighthouse....uncle was lighthouse master.

One of the best places to be up here.

da Old Yooper

Post by Gunner
Michigan Tech by Heck!
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[pyotr filipivich]

Sat phones sound like a great idea. It will mean you don't have to walk
out of the woods to tell the search party where to look for your body.

I dunno. The idea of calling someone from the middle of no-where and
asking for advice on what to do ...

"Hello, Acme Manufacturing, I'd like you to express me one of your
"El-Supremo Arctic Expedition Winter Camping Set", yes, the Deluxe version
with the boots and all. And do you have any of those hand warmers, it's
getting kind of cold. Oh, and a battery for my phone, the cold is killing
it..."

[Gary S.]

On 17 Mar 2005 17:45:20 -0800, "Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer"

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd

Same thing comes up with cell phones in less remote areas.

Even if they work (not guaranteed considering both battery life and
reception far from civilization) that does not mean immediate aid.

There are situations where SAR is not going to go out after someone
immediately, even if they get a call from them.

These things create a better chance of a so-called Clarke disaster
(named for Arthur C Clarke) where other people know you are in
trouble, but cannot render immediate aid or get to you.

They also tend to make small emergencies into ones which require
outside aid.

You would be better off by far, by carrying that weight in gear which
will help you survive, or help prevent a problem.

If the phone is for someone who cannot be out of touch with their job,
I see some irony in wireless communications tying people down more and
more to their office.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)

[Wolfgang]

...You would be better off by far, by carrying that weight in gear which
will help you survive...

Laptop.....wireless modem......ahhhhhhh....USENET!

Wolfgang
who has survived for as long as he can remember.

[pmhilton]

Post by Gary S.
If the phone is for someone who cannot be out of touch with their job,
I see some irony in wireless communications tying people down more and
more to their office.

Irony? How about complete stupidity?

Pete H

[myal]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks & Scats;
The Log Cabin: An Adventure; The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival
Handbook; The Snowshoe Handbook; The Complete Tracker; Practical
Outdoor Projects; Made for the Outdoors; Practical Outdoor Survival.
Survival Instructor/Wilderness Kayaking Guide, Timberwolf Wilderness
Adventures, Paradise, MI [phone]

On the flipside , Satphones , or the vehicle mounted ones anyway ,
suffer terribly in the heat too .

I used to fit and service the ones used by a survey company in West AU .

They put up with the being bashed around , but they dont take heat too
well .

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.

Michagan forests would not be particularly more difficult than
anywhere else. I see no particular reason that it would not be
workable... *if* people are aware of the limitations on exactly
how it works.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.

Heavy snow will affect Ku band satelite. So will heavy rain,
or for that matter a very thick fog.

As far as forests go, one needs to know about where the
satellite is, and then find a location with a clear view. A
clearing, a lake shore, a river bank, at the top of a hill or
even climbing a tree are all ways to attain a functional signal.

The above is true everywhere; it is not unique to Michigan.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.

Except that isn't what happened. The batteries were not *drained* at
all, they were just too cold to deliver their charge. Warming the
batteries would have allowed it to work.

For that reason, whether talking about a camera, a GPS, an ELB,
a radio, a cell phone or a sat phone (or *anything* that runs on
batteries) it is best to either have a unit small enough to keep
inside your coat (and sleeping bag at night), or make sure you have
a unit with removable batteries so that the batteries alone can be
kept warm.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

That is an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion.

The point *should* be that you have to understand your tools,
and know how they work, otherwise any tool is just so much dead
weight.

[Bruce W.1]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
That is an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion.
The point *should* be that you have to understand your tools,
and know how they work, otherwise any tool is just so much dead
weight.

==============================================

You summed it up nicely Floyd. A tool in the wrong hands is useless.

Most people couldn't use a ham radio to save their life, even though it
can talk around the world.

This is a better piece of equipment than a satellite phone for the
backcountry, again if the batteries aren't cold:
http://store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/spwff1.html

[heynony]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion

Well, yes.

But we learned from him:

Cold can affect battery performance.
Heavy snowfall can interfere with satellite communications.

Don't you feel grateful for the expertise he has imparted?

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by heynony

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion

Well, yes.
Cold can affect battery performance.
Heavy snowfall can interfere with satellite communications.
Don't you feel grateful for the expertise he has imparted?

Except *he* didn't impart that expertise.

[heynony]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Except *he* didn't impart that expertise

When a person tells you "that recipe was terrible because when I took
the pan out of the oven my hand burned and I spilled the stuff all over
the floor and it tasted like floor dirt" he has conveyed to you the
wisdom of not handling hot pans with your bare hands.

It may not have been his intention to teach you that, and you probably
knew about oven mitts anyway, but it is still possible that someone can
learn from the experience. Len has, undeniably, a lot of experience. He
has apparently learned little from it himself, but it is always
possible that readers can.

In his account of the satellite phone, the two lessons were clear, as
was later pointed out: batteries are affected by cold, and heavy snow
can interfere with satellite communications. Len himself was apparently
oblivious to the lessons, and they were probably already old news to
99% of the readers here. Nevertheless the lessons were clear and
possibly somebody learned something from Len's experience.

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by heynony

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Except *he* didn't impart that expertise

...

Post by heynony
In his account of the satellite phone, the two lessons were clear, as

They were *not* made clear, and that was the problem.

Post by heynony
was later pointed out: batteries are affected by cold,

The explanation was dead wrong. I mean wrong in a way that
might kill you. He said the batteries were "drained". They
were *not*.

Post by heynony
and heavy snow
can interfere with satellite communications.

He didn't say that, and said nothing about locating a satellite
phone in order to effect reliable communications.

Post by heynony
Len himself was apparently
oblivious to the lessons,

Exactly my point.

Post by heynony
and they were probably already old news to
99% of the readers here.

I see no indication that anything like 99% of the people reading
this are aware of that. Regardless, even if 99% *do* know, does
that mean we should give the wrong information to the 1% who
don't?

Post by heynony
Nevertheless the lessons were clear and
possibly somebody learned something from Len's experience.

Len didn't make it clear. I don't think you are either.

[Strabo]

In Re: Sat-phones in the deep forest on Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:33:00

Post by Floyd L. Davidson

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.

Michagan forests would not be particularly more difficult than
anywhere else. I see no particular reason that it would not be
workable... *if* people are aware of the limitations on exactly
how it works.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.

Heavy snow will affect Ku band satelite. So will heavy rain,
or for that matter a very thick fog.
As far as forests go, one needs to know about where the
satellite is, and then find a location with a clear view. A
clearing, a lake shore, a river bank, at the top of a hill or
even climbing a tree are all ways to attain a functional signal.
The above is true everywhere; it is not unique to Michigan.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.

Except that isn't what happened. The batteries were not *drained* at
all, they were just too cold to deliver their charge. Warming the
batteries would have allowed it to work.
For that reason, whether talking about a camera, a GPS, an ELB,
a radio, a cell phone or a sat phone (or *anything* that runs on
batteries) it is best to either have a unit small enough to keep
inside your coat (and sleeping bag at night), or make sure you have
a unit with removable batteries so that the batteries alone can be
kept warm.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

That is an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion.

The phone didn't work. That is an intelligent conclusion.

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
The point *should* be that you have to understand your tools,
and know how they work, otherwise any tool is just so much dead
weight.

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by Strabo

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
That is an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion.

The phone didn't work. That is an intelligent conclusion.

If your life depended on it, that would be a damned fool
thing to die for.

Not realizing that simply putting the batteries in an inside
coat pocket and selecting an appropriate location to make
a call for help isn't intelligent, but it could be deadly.

[the Moderator]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson

Post by Strabo

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
That is an uninformed and less than intelligent conclusion.

The phone didn't work. That is an intelligent conclusion.

If your life depended on it, that would be a damned fool
thing to die for.
Not realizing that simply putting the batteries in an inside
coat pocket and selecting an appropriate location to make
a call for help isn't intelligent, but it could be deadly.

Why didn't Len share this knowledge with his client?

[j***@yahoo.com]

Yipes. You guys are incorrigible. I don't know too much about Mr
McDougall, but his tracking books *are* interesting.

There's a basic truth in there that either you missed or you're
deliberately ignoring to nitpick. And it doesn't have to do with
batteries, fov to the satellite, etc... although those are related.

If you're not intimately familiar with how a piece of gear works (and
breaks), don't rely on it, especially in a life-or-death situation.
This is true not only for wireless phones, but also basic stuff like a
stove, tent, boots, and an ice ax.

[Gary S.]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yipes. You guys are incorrigible. I don't know too much about Mr
McDougall, but his tracking books *are* interesting.
There's a basic truth in there that either you missed or you're
deliberately ignoring to nitpick. And it doesn't have to do with
batteries, fov to the satellite, etc... although those are related.
If you're not intimately familiar with how a piece of gear works (and
breaks), don't rely on it, especially in a life-or-death situation.
This is true not only for wireless phones, but also basic stuff like a
stove, tent, boots, and an ice ax.

Yes. The most important piece of equipment also serves to keep your
hat off your shoulders.

Any piece of gear should be tried out and understood before going into
a real situation.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)

[Strabo]

In Re: Sat-phones in the deep forest on 18 Mar 2005 07:32:10

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yipes. You guys are incorrigible. I don't know too much about Mr
McDougall, but his tracking books *are* interesting.

Yes, and he does us a good service by posting such tips.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
There's a basic truth in there that either you missed or you're
deliberately ignoring to nitpick. And it doesn't have to do with
batteries, fov to the satellite, etc... although those are related.
If you're not intimately familiar with how a piece of gear works (and
breaks), don't rely on it, especially in a life-or-death situation.
This is true not only for wireless phones, but also basic stuff like a
stove, tent, boots, and an ice ax.

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
If you're not intimately familiar with how a piece of gear works (and
breaks), don't rely on it, especially in a life-or-death situation.
This is true not only for wireless phones, but also basic stuff like a
stove, tent, boots, and an ice ax.

If you are going to rely on a piece of gear, especially in a
life-or-death situation, you *must* become familiar with how it
functions.

[Jim Samson]

To be fair to the guy with the satellite phone, he WAS trying it out. It
didn't really matter if it worked or not. He wasn't in a life-or-death
situation cuz he had Len McDougall to take care of him. It was as good an
opportunity as one would want.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Yipes. You guys are incorrigible. I don't know too much about Mr
McDougall, but his tracking books *are* interesting.
There's a basic truth in there that either you missed or you're
deliberately ignoring to nitpick. And it doesn't have to do with
batteries, fov to the satellite, etc... although those are related.
If you're not intimately familiar with how a piece of gear works (and
breaks), don't rely on it, especially in a life-or-death situation.
This is true not only for wireless phones, but also basic stuff like a
stove, tent, boots, and an ice ax.

[Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer]

You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge - every teenager of driving age knew that when I was growing up,
and anyone who took Basic Electricity in high school knows it too. The
sat-phone was not mine - read the post - and I already knew it wasn't
going to work reliably - read the post. Going to open ground does
help, but (a) you guys obviously don't know how large the forests are
here in th U.P., and (b) if you need rescue, you probably can't travel.
I'd think that would be common sense, but maybe it's just the result
of 35 years' experience in the wilderness. That's why people pay me to
teach them wilderness survival.
Finally, I worked in quality control for United Technologies for
five years, where I helped design both the multifunction modular turn
signal and rotary ignition switches found in every Ford vehicle made
today. Our Buick switches employed a 555 timer IC chip in a cascade
counter configuration for the wiper delay. Oscilloscopes, MV-drop
testers, linear and digital plotters, load cells, and force gages were
tools of the trade, and I wore a digital VOM on my belt every day. I
worked with assembly languages like split octal and hexadecimal, wrote
in HP-DOS, Apple-DOS, and MS-DOS, and repaired my own equipment (with
some help from our electronics lab). I've built multi-band shortwave
radios, worked with the All-American Five (know what those are?), and
changed flybacks in TVs. Still play with SSB transceivers when I have
time. In 1981 I passed the entrance exam to MENSA (barely). I've
butchered cows, installed toilets, wired 220VAC outlets, built a cabin,
changed clutches and throwout bearings, trained sled dogs, tanned
plews, put a shaving edge on axes, driven a bulldozer, and I'm
downright good with a forklift. Survival isn't just about guns and
testosterone; it's about knowledge and skill, and my appetite has been
insatiable since childhood.
Gunner used to sign his posts with a quote from Heinlein that stated
- to paraphrase - a human being should be able to do everything from
changing a diaper to piloting a ship, because specialization is for
insects. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that a survivalist is
a dumb hick, because you'll end up looking as foolish as you look now.


Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks and
Scats * The Log Cabin: An Adventure * Practical Outdoor Projects * The
Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook * The Snowshoe Handbook *
The Outdoors Almanac * The Complete Tracker * Practical Outdoor
Survival

[b***@charter.net]

Now pay attention, because I'm not going to continue to repeat

myself,

Oh yes you will.

<snip what's been said before>

[Gunner]

On 18 Mar 2005 19:38:34 -0800, "Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer"

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge - every teenager of driving age knew that when I was growing up,
and anyone who took Basic Electricity in high school knows it too. The
sat-phone was not mine - read the post - and I already knew it wasn't
going to work reliably - read the post. Going to open ground does
help, but (a) you guys obviously don't know how large the forests are
here in th U.P., and (b) if you need rescue, you probably can't travel.
I'd think that would be common sense, but maybe it's just the result
of 35 years' experience in the wilderness. That's why people pay me to
teach them wilderness survival.
Finally, I worked in quality control for United Technologies for
five years, where I helped design both the multifunction modular turn
signal and rotary ignition switches found in every Ford vehicle made
today. Our Buick switches employed a 555 timer IC chip in a cascade
counter configuration for the wiper delay. Oscilloscopes, MV-drop
testers, linear and digital plotters, load cells, and force gages were
tools of the trade, and I wore a digital VOM on my belt every day. I
in HP-DOS, Apple-DOS, and MS-DOS, and repaired my own equipment (with
some help from our electronics lab). I've built multi-band shortwave
radios, worked with the All-American Five (know what those are?), and
changed flybacks in TVs. Still play with SSB transceivers when I have
time. In 1981 I passed the entrance exam to MENSA (barely). I've
butchered cows, installed toilets, wired 220VAC outlets, built a cabin,
changed clutches and throwout bearings, trained sled dogs, tanned
plews, put a shaving edge on axes, driven a bulldozer, and I'm
downright good with a forklift. Survival isn't just about guns and
testosterone; it's about knowledge and skill, and my appetite has been
insatiable since childhood.
Gunner used to sign his posts with a quote from Heinlein that stated
- to paraphrase - a human being should be able to do everything from
changing a diaper to piloting a ship, because specialization is for
insects. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that a survivalist is
a dumb hick, because you'll end up looking as foolish as you look now.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -
RobertHeinlein



Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.

Len, *you* need to take some classes.

Lets get it straight, cold does *not* take the charge out of a
battery. It makes the charge that the battery has unavailable.
Warming the battery makes it available. (Actually, with some
batteries the best way to *preserve* a charge is to store them
at lower temperatures!)

Or to put it another way, for any given state of charge, the
usable percentage of that charge is a function of the
temperature of the battery.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge - every teenager of driving age knew that when I was growing up,
and anyone who took Basic Electricity in high school knows it too.

They everyone of you were sleeping in class.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
The
sat-phone was not mine - read the post - and I already knew it wasn't
going to work reliably - read the post.

Nothing in your post indicated the sat-phone did not work
reliably. You merely indicated that none of you knew how to
operate it.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
I'd think that would be common sense, but maybe it's just the result
of 35 years' experience in the wilderness. That's why people pay me to
teach them wilderness survival.

Big deal. I spent 40+ years maintaining communications systems,
(including satellite systems) in areas that make your idea of
"wilderness" seem downright urban.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
I worked in ...
I helped design...
Our Buick switches employed ...
I wore a digital VOM ..
I worked with assembly languages like split octal and hexadecimal ...

This is all fairly funny, but that one takes the cake. You
think "split octal and hexadecimal" is a description for an
assembly language? How quaint...

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
I've built multi-band shortwave radios...
I passed the entrance exam to MENSA ...
I've butchered cows ...
I'm downright good with a forklift.

...

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks and

Jesus H. Christ, you must be a blow hard know nothing *idiot*!

(Or, at least this particular thread would indicate so.)

[Wolfgang]

...I'm...my...I...mine...me...I...I...I...I...my...I've...I ...I
...I've...I'm...
my...Len McDougall...

<sigh!> My hero! <sigh!>

Wolfgang
who knows that the forests in the u.p. are bigger than a bread box and
somewhat smaller than canada.

[Old Yooper]

Post by Wolfgang

...I'm...my...I...mine...me...I...I...I...I...my...I've...I ...I
...I've...I'm...
my...Len McDougall...

<sigh!> My hero! <sigh!>
Wolfgang
who knows that the forests in the u.p. are bigger than a bread box and
somewhat smaller than canada.

The forests in the u.p. are in a mill in Quinnesec. Maybe John Prine sang
about that?

[Wolfgang]

Post by Old Yooper

Post by Wolfgang

...I'm...my...I...mine...me...I...I...I...I...my...I've...I ...I
...I've...I'm...
my...Len McDougall...

<sigh!> My hero! <sigh!>
Wolfgang
who knows that the forests in the u.p. are bigger than a bread box and
somewhat smaller than canada.

The forests in the u.p. are in a mill in Quinnesec.

Yeah, for the most part, but there are still a few small remnants of real
forest. On the steep hillsides along the lake Superior shore in the
Porcupine Mountains, for example, there are still some magnificent stands of
old growth white pine and hemlock timber

Post by Old Yooper
Maybe John Prine sang about that?

I'm not real familiar with Prine's work.....but if he does dirges, then
yeah, maybe so.

Wolfgang

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge -

No. Don't think so. Cold prevents the battery from delivering its charge but
does not deplete the charge (unless it's cold enough to damage the cells).
The same teen agers who you cite as know about batteries, should also have
know the trick of partially shorting a "dead" (cold) battery to warm it
enough to get it working again. BTW, here is an interesting FAQ on
different battery technologies:
http://www.powerstream.com/BatteryFAQ.html

[Jim Samson]

Regardless of what yooper teenagers think they know, you still don't know
how batteries work. Your response was one of classic misdirection, listing
your resume as a means to deflect discussion. Batteries don't care about
your years in the wilderness nor what you wore on your belt, nor any of the
other of your listed acheivements.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge - every teenager of driving age knew that when I was growing up,
and anyone who took Basic Electricity in high school knows it too. The
sat-phone was not mine - read the post - and I already knew it wasn't
going to work reliably - read the post. Going to open ground does
help, but (a) you guys obviously don't know how large the forests are
here in th U.P., and (b) if you need rescue, you probably can't travel.
I'd think that would be common sense, but maybe it's just the result
of 35 years' experience in the wilderness. That's why people pay me to
teach them wilderness survival.
Finally, I worked in quality control for United Technologies for
five years, where I helped design both the multifunction modular turn
signal and rotary ignition switches found in every Ford vehicle made
today. Our Buick switches employed a 555 timer IC chip in a cascade
counter configuration for the wiper delay. Oscilloscopes, MV-drop
testers, linear and digital plotters, load cells, and force gages were
tools of the trade, and I wore a digital VOM on my belt every day. I
in HP-DOS, Apple-DOS, and MS-DOS, and repaired my own equipment (with
some help from our electronics lab). I've built multi-band shortwave
radios, worked with the All-American Five (know what those are?), and
changed flybacks in TVs. Still play with SSB transceivers when I have
time. In 1981 I passed the entrance exam to MENSA (barely). I've
butchered cows, installed toilets, wired 220VAC outlets, built a cabin,
changed clutches and throwout bearings, trained sled dogs, tanned
plews, put a shaving edge on axes, driven a bulldozer, and I'm
downright good with a forklift. Survival isn't just about guns and
testosterone; it's about knowledge and skill, and my appetite has been
insatiable since childhood.
Gunner used to sign his posts with a quote from Heinlein that stated
- to paraphrase - a human being should be able to do everything from
changing a diaper to piloting a ship, because specialization is for
insects. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that a survivalist is
a dumb hick, because you'll end up looking as foolish as you look now.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks and
Scats * The Log Cabin: An Adventure * Practical Outdoor Projects * The
Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook * The Snowshoe Handbook *
The Outdoors Almanac * The Complete Tracker * Practical Outdoor
Survival

[Mike Romain]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.

Wow......

You call yourself a professional and spit out total garbage like that.

If people actually believe you, they could die while all the time only
needing to put the damn phone inside their coat for an hour our so to
warm it up while laying there with a broken leg or two.

You can keep a charge longer in a lot of batteries by freezing them, you
just warm then before use. Ni-cads save the most when frozen I believe.

I was thinking your books might be an interesting read, but if you are
that uninformed about reality then I can't see any reason to bother.

I worked with batteries in the Canadian cold for about 9 years. Mobile
data communications and electronic vending machines and they all have to
work at -30 or lower. If they didn't I would have had 100+ people
screaming blue murder at me. The vending machines must work at least 50
times per day. Obviously the lithium batteries we used did the job.

You sir, have no freaking clue. Worse, people might actually believe
your BS and die from it.....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

[Old Yooper]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
You guys should take some classes. Now pay attention, because I'm not
going to continue to repeat myself, and stop trying to twist my words.
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.

No it doesn't. Even yoopers understand batteries better than you. My guess
is, after your comments, that most yooper teenagers are smarter than you.

http://www.shortcourses.com/choosing/batteries/13.htm

"In one place you read that batteries retain their charge longer when stored
in a cold freezer, and in another place you read that you need to keep them
warm to prolong their charge. What gives? Well if you think about batteries
as small chemical engines, it all makes sense. When batteries are cold or
frozen their chemical reactions slow down and the batteries will keep their
stored charge longer. However, if you try to use the batteries when they are
cold, there isn't enough of a chemical reaction to generate the power you
need. Warming them up speeds up the reaction and gives you more power to
draw on."

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge - every teenager of driving age knew that when I was growing up,
and anyone who took Basic Electricity in high school knows it too.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.


The

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
sat-phone was not mine - read the post - and I already knew it wasn't
going to work reliably - read the post. Going to open ground does
help, but (a) you guys obviously don't know how large the forests are
here in th U.P.,

Obviously some of us know the UP forests a hell of a lot better than new
comers like you. Your preaching to the choir is a very sad joke.

Size of the forest has nothing to do with it. Size of the trees,
specifically height and canopy density, does. You obviously don't know what
you are talking about.


and (b) if you need rescue, you probably can't travel.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
I'd think that would be common sense, but maybe it's just the result
of 35 years' experience in the wilderness. That's why people pay me to
teach them wilderness survival.

I hope they don't pay you for advice regarding electronics and batteries.

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Finally, I worked in quality control for United Technologies for
five years, where I helped design both the multifunction modular turn
signal and rotary ignition switches found in every Ford vehicle made
today. Our Buick switches employed a 555 timer IC chip in a cascade
counter configuration for the wiper delay. Oscilloscopes, MV-drop
testers, linear and digital plotters, load cells, and force gages were
tools of the trade, and I wore a digital VOM on my belt every day. I
in HP-DOS, Apple-DOS, and MS-DOS, and repaired my own equipment (with
some help from our electronics lab). I've built multi-band shortwave
radios, worked with the All-American Five (know what those are?), and
changed flybacks in TVs. Still play with SSB transceivers when I have
time. In 1981 I passed the entrance exam to MENSA (barely).

MENSA. So what. So did I, and better than "barely". Most Michigan Techies
did. Especially the "double e's" who probably designed some of the batteries
you understand so poorly.

I've

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
butchered cows, installed toilets, wired 220VAC outlets, built a cabin,
changed clutches and throwout bearings, trained sled dogs, tanned
plews, put a shaving edge on axes, driven a bulldozer, and I'm
downright good with a forklift.

Sounds like the things most real yoopers grew up doing. We certainly didn't
need you to move north to show us how to do those things. So, are we
supposed to be impressed?

Besides, what does this have to do with batteries and phones? Misdirection
doesn't work in this case. Your erroroneos comments regarding batteries and
the effect of cold is still up above for everybody to see.


Survival isn't just about guns and

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
testosterone; it's about knowledge and skill, and my appetite has been
insatiable since childhood.
Gunner used to sign his posts with a quote from Heinlein that stated
- to paraphrase - a human being should be able to do everything from
changing a diaper to piloting a ship, because specialization is for
insects. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that a survivalist is
a dumb hick, because you'll end up looking as foolish as you look now.

I'd say you are the one looking foolish. Heres some good advice, especially
when addressing things you evidently don't understand (such as battery
charges): when you are standing in a hole, and can't see out anymore, quit
digging. Your phone won't work from down there.

da Old Yooper

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks and
Scats * The Log Cabin: An Adventure * Practical Outdoor Projects * The
Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook * The Snowshoe Handbook *
The Outdoors Almanac * The Complete Tracker * Practical Outdoor
Survival

[Offbreed]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Cold does indeed take the charge out of any battery. Any battery.
Keeping it warm prevents that from happening, but cold removes its
charge -

Len, I disagree a bit.

"Take the charge out of any battery" implies permanent killing of the
cells.

Cold stops the chemical activity that produces electricity in a cell. I
have found that rewarming the cells will usually restart the chemical
activity that produces electricity in the cells, so long as the cold has
done no damage.

Had your client put the battery inside his shirt, he might have rejuv'd
it enough for use. Certainly worth the experiment.

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
As far as forests go, one needs to know about where the
satellite is, and then find a location with a clear view. A
clearing, a lake shore, a river bank, at the top of a hill or
even climbing a tree are all ways to attain a functional signal.
The above is true everywhere; it is not unique to Michigan.

Knowing where the satellite will be is almost impossible with Iridium and
Globalstar. Iridium has 66 satellites in low orbit. Your view of each
satellite only lasts about 15 minutes. Globalstar has 40+; same situation.
You have to find a spot with a clear, 360 degree view of the sky X degrees
above the horizon. Where X is a function of latitude and ranges from about
10 deg at the equator to 30 degrees at high latitudes.

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by Donald Newcomb

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
As far as forests go, one needs to know about where the
satellite is, and then find a location with a clear view. A
clearing, a lake shore, a river bank, at the top of a hill or
even climbing a tree are all ways to attain a functional signal.
The above is true everywhere; it is not unique to Michigan.

Knowing where the satellite will be is almost impossible with Iridium and
Globalstar. Iridium has 66 satellites in low orbit. Your view of each
satellite only lasts about 15 minutes. Globalstar has 40+; same situation.

And it is also true in those cases that you don't need to know
exactly where it is.

Post by Donald Newcomb
You have to find a spot with a clear, 360 degree view of the sky X degrees

You don't need a 360 degree view, though that obviously won't hurt.

Post by Donald Newcomb
above the horizon. Where X is a function of latitude and ranges from about
10 deg at the equator to 30 degrees at high latitudes.

So you are saying that at the equator you'd need to be on a
mountain top, or a desert Island? And farther north you needs
be in perhaps at least a boat in the middle of a *large* lake???

Hmmm... maybe I'll stick with Inmarsat.

Note that looking into a few of these things and learning
something about them *before hand* makes a big difference. For
example, Globalstar uses an L-Band (1600MHz) uplink, but uses a
S-Band (2500MHz downlink). The Iridium system uses L-Band for
both up and down links. Both are "Low Earth Orbit" systems
where a one of many satellite has to be tracked as it moves
across the sky. As opposed to that the Inmarsat system uses a
single geosynchronous satellite, and also uses L-Band up and
down links.

Hence, the Globalstar system will be the most sensitive to
snow/fog and blockage due to trees.

The Inmarsat requires the least area of coverage for the
antenna, but on the other hand it absolutely *must* be clear in
the one direction that it has to see. It also won't work well
if you plan on visiting either the North or South pole, or any
place with a latitude probably much higher than 75 degrees or
so.

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson

Post by Donald Newcomb
You have to find a spot with a clear, 360 degree view of the sky X degrees

You don't need a 360 degree view, though that obviously won't hurt.

Actually, you only need to see the satellite you are talking through but
since they are in motion and you probably don't know where they are, then to
get and keep a connection, you do actually need a 360 view of the sky. This
is one reason that so many satellite calls are dropped.

Post by Floyd L. Davidson

Post by Donald Newcomb
above the horizon. Where X is a function of latitude and ranges from about
10 deg at the equator to 30 degrees at high latitudes.

So you are saying that at the equator you'd need to be on a
mountain top, or a desert Island? And farther north you needs
be in perhaps at least a boat in the middle of a *large* lake???

No, if you hold out your hand at arm's length, fingers horizontal, with your
thumb where the horizon should be, nothing should protrude above the top of
your hand. At the equator, with Iridium, anything less any you may drop your
call. You can also use a program like Nova for Windows to predict the
Iridium satellite locations so that you can make a call during a good
15-minute window when you can keep and track a single satellite..

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Hmmm... maybe I'll stick with Inmarsat.

They are really opposite. At the equator, the Inmarsats are almost directly
overhead. Whereas with Iridium at the poles you always have at least one
satellite right overhead. Best place in the world to use Iridium is at one
pole or the other. Inmarsat does not work at the poles.

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Hence, the Globalstar system will be the most sensitive to
snow/fog and blockage due to trees.

Maybe, all other things being equal, but Globalstar can use multiple
satellites simultaneously. With Globalstar, when it's good it can be very,
very good, but there are many places where it's just a paperweight. Iridium
works almost everywhere but is almost equally bad everywhere.

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Post by Donald Newcomb

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Hmmm... maybe I'll stick with Inmarsat.

They are really opposite. At the equator, the Inmarsats are almost directly
overhead.

It is only directly overhead on the equator if you happen to be
at the same longitude as the satellite. They had (and I'm not
sure how many they have now) three satellites, so if one were
located half way between two of them they would both be equally
low on the opposite, east or west, horizon (I'm not sure what
the angle would be, but it would be relatively low). Of course
if they have 4 or even more, the minimum look angle starts
getting fairly high, and I don't know if that is indeed the case
now or now.

Post by Donald Newcomb
Whereas with Iridium at the poles you always have at least one
satellite right overhead. Best place in the world to use Iridium is at one
pole or the other. Inmarsat does not work at the poles.

Yes. However, I'm not quite at the North Pole here, though
certainly it is close (the latitude in 71+ degrees). Not to
mention that the 5-15 degree look angle here is not a problem
the way it would be in other locations, given the closest hill
more than 100 feet high is a hundred miles south, and so is the
nearest shrub that is more than a foot high too!

Post by Donald Newcomb

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Hence, the Globalstar system will be the most sensitive to
snow/fog and blockage due to trees.

Maybe, all other things being equal, but Globalstar can use multiple
satellites simultaneously. With Globalstar, when it's good it can be very,
very good, but there are many places where it's just a paperweight. Iridium
works almost everywhere but is almost equally bad everywhere.

That's exactly the point. A little experience using these
devices, and realizing what the strengths and weaknesses of each
are, is essential if they are to be considered for emergency
use. Or, perhaps that is just true for *any* use... :-)

I used to pack a large briefcase sized Inmarsat terminal
whenever we intended on turning down an earth station, or had
one that was already down. I'll admit to getting a perverse
pleasure out of something like a 6 hour long call on an Inmarsat
one time back a few years ago when it was several dollars per
minute. We provided the call to the local telco, to help them
out of a serious problem when a switch upgrade failed to
function. Probably the most expensive telephone call I ever
made!

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by Floyd L. Davidson

Post by Donald Newcomb

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Hmmm... maybe I'll stick with Inmarsat.

They are really opposite. At the equator, the Inmarsats are almost directly
overhead.

It is only directly overhead on the equator if you happen to be
at the same longitude as the satellite.

I knew it! I just knew you would say that.

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
They had (and I'm not
sure how many they have now)

Four

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
three satellites, so if one were
located half way between two of them they would both be equally
low on the opposite, east or west, horizon (I'm not sure what
the angle would be, but it would be relatively low). Of course
if they have 4 or even more, the minimum look angle starts
getting fairly high, and I don't know if that is indeed the case
now or now.

Post by Donald Newcomb
Whereas with Iridium at the poles you always have at least one
satellite right overhead. Best place in the world to use Iridium is at one
pole or the other. Inmarsat does not work at the poles.

Yes. However, I'm not quite at the North Pole here, though
certainly it is close (the latitude in 71+ degrees). Not to
mention that the 5-15 degree look angle here is not a problem
the way it would be in other locations, given the closest hill
more than 100 feet high is a hundred miles south, and so is the
nearest shrub that is more than a foot high too!

8-)

Post by Floyd L. Davidson

Post by Donald Newcomb

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
Hence, the Globalstar system will be the most sensitive to
snow/fog and blockage due to trees.

Maybe, all other things being equal, but Globalstar can use multiple
satellites simultaneously. With Globalstar, when it's good it can be very,
very good, but there are many places where it's just a paperweight. Iridium
works almost everywhere but is almost equally bad everywhere.

That's exactly the point. A little experience using these
devices, and realizing what the strengths and weaknesses of each
are, is essential if they are to be considered for emergency
use. Or, perhaps that is just true for *any* use... :-)

It's sort of a standing joke that when you ask each engineer where on the
mast his antenna needs to go, the answer from each one is always "At the
very top." I find that Iridium does work better with an external antenna
mounted someplace like the roof of the car with a clear view of the sky.

Post by Floyd L. Davidson
I used to pack a large briefcase sized Inmarsat terminal
whenever we intended on turning down an earth station, or had
one that was already down. I'll admit to getting a perverse
pleasure out of something like a 6 hour long call on an Inmarsat
one time back a few years ago when it was several dollars per
minute. We provided the call to the local telco, to help them
out of a serious problem when a switch upgrade failed to
function. Probably the most expensive telephone call I ever
made!

6 hours on Inmarsat is pretty spendy. I've made my share of long Inmarsat
calls but my best was about 30 or 45 minutes.

[the Moderator]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

What kind of batteries was he using? Lithium batteries are superior to
Alkaline or Ni-Cad for extreme cold.

[Me]

Post by the Moderator
What kind of batteries was he using? Lithium batteries are superior to
Alkaline or Ni-Cad for extreme cold.

Actually, Knowing folks will use Mercury Batteries in Extreme Cold
Conditions. Yes, they are not rechargable, but they supply full battery
power down to -50F. Still used on Everest and the like....


Me

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by the Moderator
What kind of batteries was he using? Lithium batteries are superior to
Alkaline or Ni-Cad for extreme cold.

The phone's rechargeable batteries were probably Nickel-Metal-Hydride. I
believe that Zinc-Air batteries do well in cold conditions. As I recall,
they work the same as Zinc-Mercury batteries, without the mercury.

[Offbreed]

Post by Donald Newcomb
The phone's rechargeable batteries were probably Nickel-Metal-Hydride.

Had some of those on my laptop. Damned things would not keep a charge
for over a week. I'd certainly have second thoughts about relying on
N-Mh to save my ass.

BTW, the laptop now runs on either wall current or a car battery.

(I gutted a dead battery case for a filter case. The leads go into a
ferrite bead from a keyboard cable, then into a pi filter with an
inductor on both sides. I'll add a couple different sizes of caps some
day, in case of accidental resonance.)

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.

Thanks for the report. Had he kept the battery in an inside pocket this
might not have happened. (Artic photographers treasure their ancient, 100%
mechanical, winterized, Nikons and Minoltas.) As for the snow and trees,
there's not much you can do about it except to wait for better
conditions/location. As a fall-back he might have tried to text message the
other party. Text will often work when voice won't.

[Sohn]

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks & Scats;
The Log Cabin: An Adventure; The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival
Handbook; The Snowshoe Handbook; The Complete Tracker; Practical
Outdoor Projects; Made for the Outdoors; Practical Outdoor Survival.
Survival Instructor/Wilderness Kayaking Guide, Timberwolf Wilderness
Adventures, Paradise, MI [phone]

Hardpack snow???? Next time don't camp on a snowmobile trail, you're lucky
you did get run over by a trail groomer.

[Drew Cutter]

Their is a alternative that coming . Its call satellite over ip , which
will allow you to use VOIP phones. Allot cheaper than sat-phones , per
minute calls. Not sure if suffers from the same problems as sat-phones ,
weather , etc .

Post by Sohn

Post by Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
Two weeks ago I taught a four-day winter survival course. One of my
clients asked if it was okay to bring his satellite phone. I told him
it was, but that he shouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the
forests of Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He cited the sales pitch I'd
heard before about sat-phones working anywhere in the world.
We backpacked on snowshoes seven miles before nightfall, then made
camp on two feet of hardpack snow (easy winter here in Paradise this
year - just over seventeen feet). The first night was minus five
degrees Farenheit. (FYI, I assign a twenty-degree sleeping bag in all
seasons).
In the morning, my client tried his sat-phone. Got through to his
party, which surprised me; got disconnected after about twenty seconds,
which didn't. Then it began to snow heavily, and he couldn't get a
signal at all.
The second night was in the single digits. He tried his sat-phone
again that second morning, only to find that the cold had drained its
battery completely.
Thought this incident might be useful to folks who've wondered if a
sat-phone might be good insurance while camping in the backcountry.
Carry it if you like, but don't bet your life on it working when you
need to make a call.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Encyclopedia of Tracks & Scats;
The Log Cabin: An Adventure; The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival
Handbook; The Snowshoe Handbook; The Complete Tracker; Practical
Outdoor Projects; Made for the Outdoors; Practical Outdoor Survival.
Survival Instructor/Wilderness Kayaking Guide, Timberwolf Wilderness
Adventures, Paradise, MI [phone]

Hardpack snow???? Next time don't camp on a snowmobile trail, you're lucky
you did get run over by a trail groomer.

[Donald Newcomb]

Post by Drew Cutter
Their is a alternative that coming . Its call satellite over ip , which
will allow you to use VOIP phones. Allot cheaper than sat-phones , per
minute calls. Not sure if suffers from the same problems as sat-phones ,
weather , etc .

Huh? How is this going to work?

[Gary S.]

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:20:23 -0600, "Donald Newcomb"

Post by Donald Newcomb

Post by Drew Cutter
Their is a alternative that coming . Its call satellite over ip , which
will allow you to use VOIP phones. Allot cheaper than sat-phones , per
minute calls. Not sure if suffers from the same problems as sat-phones ,
weather , etc .

Huh? How is this going to work?

All National Parks and Forests will install WiFi hot spots everywhere.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)